Poll

Who would win:

RFL-3N Rifleman
JM6-S JagerMech

Author Topic: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech  (Read 20835 times)

Paul

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #30 on: 16 May 2013, 13:24:47 »
4 ACs shooting Flak ammo vs. 2.

The JägerMech is better here.

Yeah, plus the range on the AC2 is substantially more desirable than the range on the LL. The LL will threshold a lot more often, but the job in AA is provoking Control Rolls, so if the LL misses because it's in Long or even out of range completely, the AC2 wins just by being able to connect.
Course, that was less of a concern prior to the eliminate of the hex 0909 based AA rules.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #31 on: 16 May 2013, 13:29:38 »
so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.

Jagermech's are fairly good at the role, at least if you're rellying on lawndarts. Light autocannons provide the one key feature for anti-aircraft capability, pure range. The low damage is offset by lawndart checks being forced by any hit at all, and the low heat allows you to fire every pass, both of which make it a probability you'll shoot something down eventually.

The Rifleman is competent at the role as well, but from a slightly different angle. The Large Lasers take on a larger role, allowing you to get threshold crits on heavier fighters. This means that you have to be in a more predictable position (closer to the center of the map) to get range, but you can inflict multiple piloting checks in a turn. The down side is that your heat problems can make it difficult to keep up a high volume of fire.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #32 on: 16 May 2013, 15:47:52 »
It's worth noting that how well AC/2s perform in an anti-aircraft role depends directly on which rules are in use. Standard Total Warfare, no problem, any damage => lawn dart check.

Play at a table that uses the Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls rule from StratOps p. 97, though, and suddenly the same AC/2 loses its bite except against targets it can actually threshold (i.e. not many outside the realm of conventional fighters).

House Davie Merc

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #33 on: 17 May 2013, 01:59:22 »
so far things look pretty grim for the Jagermech. but obviously there had to be some reason the Jager' was made the way it was, and not just a copy of the Rifleman.


Possibility #1 .  The other Davion 3025 variants absolutely rock out loud , so the Jager
and Shadowhawk SHD-2D were created in an attempt to make random assignment tables
seem more fair .

Possibility #2 .  To make other mechs seem so much better at mech to mech combat .
It became the ugly girl that makes the pretty girl feel better so she is kept around as
a friend .

Possibility  #3 .  " Hey guys lets put the longest ranged 3025 autocannon  on a heavy just
to see what happens .  Oh crap .  Did  you say our first TRO is already printed with it still in there ?
And you say the pics for a light and heavy are switched to ?  Now people won't figure out which ones
do and don't have hands for years .  "

Possibility # 4.  " Hey ! .  I'm still sober enough to finish this before the deadline tonight ! "
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 02:01:17 by House Davie Merc »

A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #34 on: 17 May 2013, 03:43:44 »
Possibility #5: Back then the makers of the game themselves still didn't have quite that solid a grasp of what does or does not make a good design yet, so they just threw in what they personally liked. (The second part -- though not the first, if it's even true to begin with -- would arguably become a tradition that holds until today.)

Possibility #6: "Hey, players, here's what we've come up with for our silly background universe and yeah, some of these designs are lemons. If you don't like one or six of them, that's why we put construction rules into the back of your rulebook so you can do better anytime you like."

Remember, the whole obsession with "canon" came only a good bit later -- IIRC, anyway. Mostly because that early in the game's history there just wasn't much in the way of canon to obsess over yet.

StCptMara

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #35 on: 17 May 2013, 03:58:13 »
Possibility #6: "Hey, players, here's what we've come up with for our silly background universe and yeah, some of these designs are lemons. If you don't like one or six of them, that's why we put construction rules into the back of your rulebook so you can do better anytime you like."

Remember, the whole obsession with "canon" came only a good bit later -- IIRC, anyway. Mostly because that early in the game's history there just wasn't much in the way of canon to obsess over yet.

You know..one thing that I have also always found fun, and maybe some of the designers felt the same way, was trying to win with
so-called "inferior" designs.  I mean, imagine all you have in your lance is an LCT-1M, a JagerMech, a Wasp, and a UM-60L UrbanMech.
How are you going to beat the Sword of Light forces that just came out of that Leopard, with their Dragon, 2 Panthers, and Jenner,
plus 2 Samurai fighters?
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A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #36 on: 17 May 2013, 04:06:15 »
You know..one thing that I have also always found fun, and maybe some of the designers felt the same way, was trying to win with
so-called "inferior" designs.  I mean, imagine all you have in your lance is an LCT-1M, a JagerMech, a Wasp, and a UM-60L UrbanMech.
How are you going to beat the Sword of Light forces that just came out of that Leopard, with their Dragon, 2 Panthers, and Jenner,
plus 2 Samurai fighters?

I'm probably not, but I sure aim to go down letting them know they've been in a fight if it should come to that.

So, yeah, that's definitely another valid perspective. :)

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #37 on: 17 May 2013, 04:15:33 »
I'm probably not, but I sure aim to go down letting them know they've been in a fight if it should come to that.

So, yeah, that's definitely another valid perspective. :)

You know...I almost want to try that fight now, just to see how well it would come out..a Militia 5/6 lance against
the Sword of Light 3/4's or better...it might actually be fun to try..
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FedComGirl

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #38 on: 17 May 2013, 06:44:25 »
so far things look pretty grim for the Jagermech. but obviously there had to be some reason the Jager' was made the way it was, and not just a copy of the Rifleman.

technically both are supposed to have anti-aircraft as their Raison d'être.. even if anti-mech is the role most people apply them to in the overall meta-game (games with fighters in them being somewhat less common than pure ground battles)

so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.

The Jagermech runs a lot cooler and has more ammo. That lets the Jagermech keep firing while the Rifleman has to stop do to heat and empty ammo bins.

ehlijen

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #39 on: 17 May 2013, 09:04:15 »
The Jagermech runs a lot cooler and has more ammo. That lets the Jagermech keep firing while the Rifleman has to stop do to heat and empty ammo bins.

Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #40 on: 17 May 2013, 09:26:17 »
Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.

That's true in the context of the original 'Mech-vs.-'Mech duel, less so if the competition is instead who can shoot down more aircraft. In that regard and assuming stock TW rules the JagerMech has the edge because it can engage targets further out, has more ammo to lob at them, and doesn't have to worry about needing to pause its fire on account of heat.

It's still not going to hold up to return fire very well, but it'd take a pretty daring and/or desperate aerojock to risk a lawn dart roll in a direct attack. (Of course, the most likely result of that in turn is going to be said aerojocks calling for ground support, against which the JM will be once again in trouble once it gets there. But at that point we're really looking at a larger-scale combined arms engagement altogether.)

glitterboy2098

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #41 on: 17 May 2013, 10:16:38 »
Possibility #1 .  The other Davion 3025 variants absolutely rock out loud , so the Jager
and Shadowhawk SHD-2D were created in an attempt to make random assignment tables
seem more fair .

Possibility #2 .  To make other mechs seem so much better at mech to mech combat .
It became the ugly girl that makes the pretty girl feel better so she is kept around as
a friend .

Possibility  #3 .  " Hey guys lets put the longest ranged 3025 autocannon  on a heavy just
to see what happens .  Oh crap .  Did  you say our first TRO is already printed with it still in there ?
And you say the pics for a light and heavy are switched to ?  Now people won't figure out which ones
do and don't have hands for years .  "

Possibility # 4.  " Hey ! .  I'm still sober enough to finish this before the deadline tonight ! "

i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 10:37:29 by glitterboy2098 »

Jayof9s

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #42 on: 17 May 2013, 10:50:35 »
i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.

As people have said, it actually (in some instances) makes it a superior Anti-Air platform. Better range and it runs cooler (the Rifleman can't easily fire its 4 main guns consistently). It can also sit back at much further ranges and provide (light) direct-fire support than the Rifleman could. All of which would be in-universe reasons.

So, sure the JagerMech isn't much of a brawler/duelist but it wasn't designed to be.

Paul

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #43 on: 17 May 2013, 11:30:24 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul
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A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #44 on: 17 May 2013, 12:02:57 »
Well, whether "it's likely to survive because it's just not enough of a threat to attract much attention" is such a compliment to any 'Mech might make a good topic for a thread of its own. :D

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #45 on: 17 May 2013, 14:03:44 »
Rifleman without a doubt!
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #46 on: 17 May 2013, 14:21:21 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul

I noticed the same. Just keep the JagerMech back and it is a useful support unit and scavanger, using the AC2 to critseek at range.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #47 on: 17 May 2013, 21:10:09 »
Jagermech's are fairly good at the role, at least if you're rellying on lawndarts. Light autocannons provide the one key feature for anti-aircraft capability, pure range. The low damage is offset by lawndart checks being forced by any hit at all, and the low heat allows you to fire every pass, both of which make it a probability you'll shoot something down eventually.

The Rifleman is competent at the role as well, but from a slightly different angle. The Large Lasers take on a larger role, allowing you to get threshold crits on heavier fighters. This means that you have to be in a more predictable position (closer to the center of the map) to get range, but you can inflict multiple piloting checks in a turn. The down side is that your heat problems can make it difficult to keep up a high volume of fire.

That assumes the enemy can make a pass every turn.  Otherwise an alpha then cool down is a viable tactic.

FedComGirl

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #48 on: 17 May 2013, 21:18:50 »
Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.

True the Jagermech doesn't have as much armor but the Rifleman only has 10 heat sinks. That isn't enough to take care of the 16 heat generated by 2 large lasers. Just firing them causes the Rifleman to lose 1 MP. Firing the ACs at the same time gains the Rifleman a +1 modifier to fire. Add in the medium lasers and your -2MP, +2 modifier to fire, and trying to avoid a shutdown on a +4. That doesn't include movement heat either.Move and you have -3 MP. The Jagermech though has to fire everything and run overheat 2 points. In the heat of battle that's a big advantage. Heavier armor doesn't help when you can't move.


i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.


The Jagermech was created to solve the Rifleman's heat and ammo problems.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #49 on: 17 May 2013, 22:01:45 »
I think it comes out to a toss up.  In a Mech V mech battle the rifle man can barage fire its weapons, 2 large lasers, next turn both AC/5s.  and keep switching it up.  Now The jager mech can fire its entire weapons load.  Now both mechs have light armor even for there time, but not there intended role. 

In a long range dueling match the jager has the advantage of range, but then again they are just AC/2's.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #50 on: 18 May 2013, 00:46:10 »
In the stated premise of duel?  Rifleman by a landslide.

As AA platforms?  Jagermech.  An ASF at Altitude 8 is counted as being 16 hexes farther away than it actually is.  That's out of the range of the Rifleman's Large Lasers and Long Range for the AC-5s of both.  The AC-2?  It laughs because that is still Medium Range and it can fire flak for -2.

Though I will say that some people seem to be insisting that just because the Rifleman has two Large Lasers it must fire both in the same turn.  I actually suspect the Rifleman is intended to only use half of it's firepower at a time, if that much.  The other half?  Redundancy due to battle damage.

Jagermech has enough ammo it can use more of it's guns if the to hit numbers are right but being almost entirely ammo based it has a most perilous position.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #51 on: 18 May 2013, 01:32:51 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul

That only works if the JagerMech stays at 24-22 hexes range and only uses his AC/2. As soon as it is at 18 hexes secondary LRM and AC/5 will be aimed at it, because everyone knows an JagerMech is an easy kill. That's what I experienced.
And as soon as flanking P-Hawks, Jenners, Javelins, etc. come around the corner, the JagerMech is the first one to be killed.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #52 on: 18 May 2013, 01:37:31 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul
I think this might be a good example of the metagame effect .

In most of our games the Jagermech would be quickly targetted .

It's easily crippled by a few good hits and after that even the lesser lights can
eliminate it to gain an initiative advantage .
I also tend to target mechs with flipping arms to take out the mech best able to
damage flanking units .

We've actually had fights center around defending the crippled Jag ( or other poorly armored mech)
because the loss of a single unit can be a big loss in the movement phase .

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #53 on: 18 May 2013, 04:38:56 »
Though I will say that some people seem to be insisting that just because the Rifleman has two Large Lasers it must fire both in the same turn.  I actually suspect the Rifleman is intended to only use half of it's firepower at a time, if that much.  The other half?  Redundancy due to battle damage.

I tend to think of it as reserve firepower, even if the Rifleman's particular "reserve" is a bit out of proportion to what it can deliver "casually" by heat-safe default. Still, I can fire one large laser all day, or everything but the large lasers for as long as the ammo lasts, and even one LL plus both ACs only builds up movement heat...anything significantly more is simply for when I've got a good shot lined up and don't mind having to potentially cool off next turn if it means a good chance at doing some extra damage right now.

I mean, that's what 'Mechs' ability to pack in more guns than their heat sinks can safely handle in one turn is for, right? :)

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #54 on: 18 May 2013, 05:25:45 »
I think it comes out to a toss up.  In a Mech V mech battle the rifle man can barage fire its weapons, 2 large lasers, next turn both AC/5s.  and keep switching it up.  Now The jager mech can fire its entire weapons load.  Now both mechs have light armor even for there time, but not there intended role. 

In a long range dueling match the jager has the advantage of range, but then again they are just AC/2's.

That would just slow the heat build up. Not eliminate it. The first time it fires both LLs its going to lose 1 MP and it'll get worse from there. The only way to fire the ACs and eliminate the previous heat is to not move. And that only works if the Rifleman didn't move the turn before. Either way the Rifleman is now slower than the Jagermech. It could just use 1 LL and then switch to both ACs next turn but then it loses a large amount of its firepower. The Rifleman could save the LLs for sure hits but its ammo is limited so it can't do that too long. Whatever it does the Rifleman is going to have problems with overheating and running out of ammo. That's why the Jagermech was created. Unfortunately fixing those problems made the Rifleman's third problem worse.

In a fight against each other I think it'd come down to the pilots, terrain, and luck.

It's kind of surprising the Jagermech wasn't introduced with SL era tech and that the Rifleman didn't receive a simple upgrade. And yes I know that tech didn't exist when TRO:3025 was published. But it is surprising that there isn't a Royal version of them.

I tend to think of it as reserve firepower, even if the Rifleman's particular "reserve" is a bit out of proportion to what it can deliver "casually" by heat-safe default. Still, I can fire one large laser all day, or everything but the large lasers for as long as the ammo lasts, and even one LL plus both ACs only builds up movement heat...anything significantly more is simply for when I've got a good shot lined up and don't mind having to potentially cool off next turn if it means a good chance at doing some extra damage right now.

I mean, that's what 'Mechs' ability to pack in more guns than their heat sinks can safely handle in one turn is for, right? :)

Reserve weapons don't help when they're destroyed before thy can be used. Riding the heat curve can be good but being shut down or forced to hold your fire a couple turns isn't.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #55 on: 18 May 2013, 05:51:18 »
It's kind of surprising the Jagermech wasn't introduced with SL era tech and that the Rifleman didn't receive a simple upgrade. And yes I know that tech didn't exist when TRO:3025 was published. But it is surprising that there isn't a Royal version of them.

RFL-3N Rifleman itself is an upgrade from RFL-1N and RFL-2N. And of course it has Royal version - it is the RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #56 on: 18 May 2013, 06:10:35 »
Reserve weapons don't help when they're destroyed before thy can be used. Riding the heat curve can be good but being shut down or forced to hold your fire a couple turns isn't.

I'm afraid that you're not making sense to me here. First, any given 'Mech can end up being destroyed or at least virtually neutralized before it can be used -- all it takes is a lucky headshot or golden BB. So that argument is basically meaningless; being taken out too soon is not a problem particularly unique to specifically "reserve" weapons.

And as for the second part, it seems to me that what you're saying here is that riding the heat curve can be good...except that of course that it's really actually bad after all because doing it might just have *gasp* inconvenient side effects. Tsk. How dare it...  ^-^

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #57 on: 18 May 2013, 07:27:16 »
RFL-3N Rifleman itself is an upgrade from RFL-1N and RFL-2N. And of course it has Royal version - it is the RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II.

Those weren't simple upgrades though. They were redesigns. The 3N gained 10 tons over the 1N and 2N. The 3N-2 gains 20 tons over the 3N.

I'm afraid that you're not making sense to me here. First, any given 'Mech can end up being destroyed or at least virtually neutralized before it can be used -- all it takes is a lucky headshot or golden BB. So that argument is basically meaningless; being taken out too soon is not a problem particularly unique to specifically "reserve" weapons.

I don't see your point. There's a difference between a lucky headshot right at the start and being neutralized or destroyed through accumulated battle damage. What's the point in carrying 5 ton weapon that'll only be used if the other 5 ton weapon is destroyed? Especially when you already have reserve weapons in the form of 2 medium lasers? You'd be better off trading it for more heat sinks and ammo. At least then you could fire constantly while on the move. You could even upgrade the LL to a PPC and still be better off.

Quote
And as for the second part, it seems to me that what you're saying here is that riding the heat curve can be good...except that of course that it's really actually bad after all because doing it might just have *gasp* inconvenient side effects. Tsk. How dare it...  ^-^


There's a difference between riding the heat curve and falling off of it. Losing 25-50% of your speed and receiving a targeting modifier the first time you fire all your primary weapons is falling off the curve. That's something the Rifleman does a lot. That's why the Jagermech was created.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #58 on: 18 May 2013, 07:38:45 »
Those weren't simple upgrades though. They were redesigns. The 3N gained 10 tons over the 1N and 2N. The 3N-2 gains 20 tons over the 3N.

So it seems that you want RFL-3N with "freezers"?

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #59 on: 18 May 2013, 08:59:22 »
I don't see your point.

So I've gathered, yes. That point is simply that BattleTech is already a game of chance and that any amount of playing skill can only try to manage the randomness as best possible, but not eliminate or control it. As such, there's only so much point in trying to "play it safe" (which on a battlefield of all places is kind of an inherently silly notion to begin with).

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What's the point in carrying 5 ton weapon that'll only be used if the other 5 ton weapon is destroyed? Especially when you already have reserve weapons in the form of 2 medium lasers? You'd be better off trading it for more heat sinks and ammo. At least then you could fire constantly while on the move. You could even upgrade the LL to a PPC and still be better off.

Would've, could've, should've doesn't win games (or battles, for that matter). If I'm handed a stock Rifleman to go into a scenario with, you'd better believe that that second LL will see use in conjunction with the first -- and that if I judge the time right I'll fully opt for an all-out alpha strike and damn the shutdown roll, too. There may well be players out there so risk-averse that they decry things like MASC or ultra autocannons as useless right from the word go because they're too afraid of rolling a 2 at the wrong moment...but I don't particularly count myself among them, and gambling on the heat scale if I think it might just pay off is just another part of that.

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There's a difference between riding the heat curve and falling off of it. Losing 25-50% of your speed and receiving a targeting modifier the first time you fire all your primary weapons is falling off the curve.

In your opinion. Other people's mileage may vary.

I'm certainly not blind to the Rifleman's flaws (frankly, even with no other post-intro tech available I think it'd be a great candidate for a TSM refit just so the heat it's going to build up anyway can do some good, too), but I'm not going to let them in turn blind me to what few strengths the design actually does have, either.