Prestige for Hell's Horses Conventional Armor Crew

[Alexander]

Hello all. I am working on a project for Hell's Horses and something came up-- can tank crews (commander, driver, etc.) rise in the ranks or receive bloodnames? I assume they would have a more elevated position in HH than in other clans, but I cannot find information specifying this. Thanks!

[ravensword]

I know at least one Horse's tanker got a Bloodname, but don't remember the specifics.

[Zeruel]

not a Horse warrior, but...

there is a Galaxy Commander (still only of a 2nd Line Galaxy) Alexsandr Jorgensson in the Ghost Bears who is a tank commander...won his Bloodname by having his tank modified to be piloted by 1 person for the Trial of Bloodright

his gaining a Bloodname as a tanker was considered practically impossible

so, yes, tankers can indeed rise in the ranks and gain Bloodnames, it is just extremely difficult/almost impossible for the latter feat

[Natasha Kerensky]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/might-before-metal-home-of-clan-hell's-horses-ii/msg1069516/#msg1069516

[Metallgewitter]

The interesting part is imho that during the founding of the Clans that only tank commanders were "real" warriors while the crews were auxiliary warriors. Which means they were not part of the "Bloodnamed". I would assume that during several Bloodname-Trials tankers take part. Though I also assume that most tankers won't reach the finals often if ever. 

[CJC070]

In Era Report 3145, it is mentioned of a Tankwarrior phenotype.  I don’t know how it works but considering the Hells Horses emphasis on cooperation it would not be surprising if a tank crew can earn a Bloodname or at least recognition for their achievements.

[Decoy]

There are more than a few bloodnamed conventionals in the dark age. There may be less now, since there are more 'mechs, battle armor, and fighters out there now

[Dragon Cat]

Unlike naval crew who could prove themselves in a fighter before Dropship or WarShip

I guess they could use a Savannah Master ;D

But armoured crews need to work as a team to really prove their worth

Maybe a team trial followed by hand to hand fights to show best overall?

[Zeruel]

Unlike naval crew who could prove themselves in a fighter before Dropship or WarShip

I guess they could use a Savannah Master ;D

But armoured crews need to work as a team to really prove their worth

Maybe a team trial followed by hand to hand fights to show best overall?

just to elaborate, Alexandr Jorgensson piloted a modified Athena Combat Vehicle for his Trial of Bloodright...

if that can be modified to be piloted by 1 person, I assume other types of tank can be, and you wouldn't need a Savannah Master (unless you wanted to pilot that?)

[Dragon Cat]

I guess they could have 3 or 4 set up exclusively for that so they didn't need to do it constantly for the trials

[Stormlion1]

Tank Commanders would be the ones eligible for the Bloodnames while the crews would have to wait there chance. That is if there warriors to begin with. Tank crews might be techs.

[Sharkapult]

just to elaborate, Alexandr Jorgensson piloted a modified Athena Combat Vehicle for his Trial of Bloodright...

if that can be modified to be piloted by 1 person, I assume other types of tank can be, and you wouldn't need a Savannah Master (unless you wanted to pilot that?)

In the novels Phelan Kell was forced into an interior mech when fighting augmented against an Elemental. I wonder why Mechwarriors wouldn't have been similarly hobbled against a tanker in a single crew tank. Ahh well.

[Zeruel]

In the novels Phelan Kell was forced into an interior mech when fighting augmented against an Elemental. I wonder why Mechwarriors wouldn't have been similarly hobbled against a tanker in a single crew tank. Ahh well.

an interesting point, there are no other details on Alexsandr's Trial, so maybe anyone he faced was indeed handicapped in some way

[Jellico]

Alexsandr was someone's pet science project. They really really wanted his genetics to be viable and passed on. I am not suggesting that there were shenanigans, but I suspect he got every opportunity to succeed.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

not a Horse warrior, but...

there is a Galaxy Commander (still only of a 2nd Line Galaxy) Alexsandr Jorgensson in the Ghost Bears who is a tank commander...won his Bloodname by having his tank modified to be piloted by 1 person for the Trial of Bloodright

his gaining a Bloodname as a tanker was considered practically impossible

so, yes, tankers can indeed rise in the ranks and gain Bloodnames, it is just extremely difficult/almost impossible for the latter feat

Wow. Won a bloodright by a tank? In Clans? He must be one of the most badass the Bears have seen.

[Jellico]

The clue is in the name. The Bears managed to get some Kerensky genetics. Then managed to have most of them die in training with the only survivor failing his first Trial of Position.



The position of tankers in CHH is interesting. The Field Manuals suffered from telling not showing when it came to men over metal. The only tanker explicitly written as making it to Galaxy Commander for years was Alexsandr in CGB.
While fun for teasing Horses I figured it made for an interesting political dynamic in CHH. On one hand you have the Mechwarriors bred to believe they are the pinnacle of humanity and should be running the show. On the other a Clan with a chronic inability to get the number of Mechs that it needs to live up to its self expectations. *Drama*
For all that self importance CHH Mechwarriors have had to live with tanks and would probably feel naked without them. Still culturally as a Clan they will get all the good jobs. At the same time tankers would outnumber Mechwarriors. Lots of opportunities for conflict.

[Zeruel]

I haven't checked the numbers, but I imagine the Horses have had several Elemental Khans/high ranked warriors...

That would probably help temper any tanker/MechWarrior political dynamics somewhat

[Alexander]

So, possible, but rare. I should note that I'm really focusing on 3070s for this project. All this information has been helpful, thanks!

[Colt Ward]

Mad Malvina fought against a Horse . . . GalCom?  StarCol? who had a Bloodname in a Trial of Possession using hovertanks IIRC- Maxim II?- where she ended up killing the other tank and maybe her driver.  Honestly . . . the development of the Quadvee MIGHT have also been a outgrowth of trying to duplicate the Alexander Jorgensson Bloodname trial controls, because it is 2 individuals running the QV.  ONE can do it (since the other can get injured IIRC) for a loss of function.  So in the 3120s-3150s, might we see the 'Tank Warriors' getting a bloodname with QVs locked in veh mode?

Also the Horses had two shifts towards armor- in their founding with their Khan's emphasis and after losing Tokasha as a source of mechs.  The first was a philosophy/pride angle while the later was about necessity . . . and around the time the Elementals really got going.  Look at their last several Khans we know of . . . Fletcher (Elemental), Cobb (Elemental), Kabrinski (Elemental), and current Fletcher? (Elemental).  They maybe the 'tank Clan' but they look suspiciously like the 'Elemental Clan' to me.

Someone mentioned the original Clan founder trials . . . IIRC the scanty details we get, those were not a series of duels but rather competency tests.  Think of the current military's promotion program dialed up to 11 . . . PT test for physical fitness, marksmenship with small arms and weapon systems (ASF, mechs, armor) if qualifying, tactical problems aka field exercises, and probably even command tests.  Soldiers who did not make the upper 5% (or whatever it was) formed the auxiliaries assigned to each Clan and were probably the source of 'other' DNA used in the first trueborn sibkos.

[truetanker]

Unlike naval crew who could prove themselves in a fighter before Dropship or WarShip

I guess they could use a Savannah Master ;D

But armoured crews need to work as a team to really prove their worth

Maybe a team trial followed by hand to hand fights to show best overall?

Ugh.... Neg Inner Sphere dezgra ~ (  ;) )

It's an Asshur they use, not a stravag Savannah Master!

TT

[Decoy]

I've been wondering how much cross training goes on. It seems every time we see an Aerospace warrior in a duel lately, they've been in 'mechs.

[Metallgewitter]

The position of tankers in CHH is interesting. The Field Manuals suffered from telling not showing when it came to men over metal. The only tanker explicitly written as making it to Galaxy Commander for years was Alexsandr in CGB.
While fun for teasing Horses I figured it made for an interesting political dynamic in CHH. On one hand you have the Mechwarriors bred to believe they are the pinnacle of humanity and should be running the show. On the other a Clan with a chronic inability to get the number of Mechs that it needs to live up to its self expectations. *Drama*
For all that self importance CHH Mechwarriors have had to live with tanks and would probably feel naked without them. Still culturally as a Clan they will get all the good jobs. At the same time tankers would outnumber Mechwarriors. Lots of opportunities for conflict.

Interestingly CHH often give their sibko "failures" a chance to retest for a "lesser" combat arm. I would assume those become either tank crewmen (lesser because they might not be the commander of the tank) or perhaps even  Mechwarriors and give them a support Mech for tank formations. Like the Parash a 3085 era Mech full with electronics but used to support tank formations with valuable recon data. Also worth of note in the refusal test against the IS CHH used a star of Mechs and a star of tanks. Though I wonder how honorable combat between a tank and Mech looks like. In the WoR book there is an example of combat between the Wolves and the Horses in the Homeworlds and it is stated that the combat was honorable until one Wolf Mech unloaded a full inferno SRM barrage into a Horse combat tank and that was the line where the Horses basically said "Screw this full war it is!"

[Zeruel]

Interestingly CHH often give their sibko "failures" a chance to retest for a "lesser" combat arm.

Hmm, I know the Bears do this, I was not aware the Horses did too, where is this information located?

[Metallgewitter]

Hmm, I know the Bears do this, I was not aware the Horses did too, where is this information located?

I think it was in Oeration Klondike when they gave a small rundown of all 20 Clans. It would make sense for the Horses. After all you can't crew tanks with just Bloodnamed warriors if you keep the limits Nicolas did set at the beginning.
Oh and one interesting note: in the Wars of Reaving the Star Adders had a trial in regards to their absorbed Burrocks. Galaxy Commander Hutchinson fought in a Mars against the Loremaster in a Warhawk and he nearly won. So that was either part of the trialor Hutchinson is a tank commander

[Arkansas Warrior]

not a Horse warrior, but...

there is a Galaxy Commander (still only of a 2nd Line Galaxy) Alexsandr Jorgensson in the Ghost Bears who is a tank commander...won his Bloodname by having his tank modified to be piloted by 1 person for the Trial of Bloodright

his gaining a Bloodname as a tanker was considered practically impossible

so, yes, tankers can indeed rise in the ranks and gain Bloodnames, it is just extremely difficult/almost impossible for the latter feat

I see this kicked around a lot when the topic comes up, but I don’t think we actually know it for sure.


FM: Warden Clans says this:

[size=78%]Some believe he might even pilot his captured Athena combat vehicle into a Jorgensson Trial of Bloodright one day, provided one-man controls for the tank can be devised.[/size]

Then in FM:U he’s listed without explanation in the Ghost Bear deployment tables as Galaxy Commander Alexandr [sic] Jorgensson”


So...maybe.  But to me, it seem like the much more likely answer is that he borrowed a vehicle that’s already set up for one-man use, like a Shamash.  Or maybe somebody did rig up Rube Goldberg controls so that one guy could do the work of five in an Athena.  We don’t really know conclusively.  Unless there’s a third source I’m missing.  But here’s the thing: he jumped straight into Star Commander after his Trial of Position.  It’s not like he worked up through all the positions on a tank before being given command, like a modern tanker might.  I’m sure he has a basic understanding of how to drive, or troubleshoot the loading system, or whatever the other four crew on an Athens actually do.  But mostly he’s been a tank commander his whole career; he wasn’t commanding a star from the driver’s station.  Asking him to do everything at once is a recipe for disaster.  Then again, the Athena has two Gauss rifles and a TC, so maybe he just found a good hull-down position, then headcapped his opponent.  Every round of the tournament.  Or drew a lot of Unaugmented fights.

[Colt Ward]

He had the tank(s) he used for the Bloodname fight modified for 1 person controls . . . though you are right we cannot know it was a Athena . . . heck, he could have competed for a Jorgennson Elemental Blood Heritage, which would have placed him in some small tank to be on the level of a Elemental suit in a augmented fight.  Or the Elemental could have been forced to fight in Gnome armor to more closely meet him and be the sort of disadvantage for his opponents that could be arranged due to Clan politics.

I want to say it was asked on a 'Ask the Dev' thread, but since those answers are malleable . . . eh.


Is that you Alexsander?

[Zeruel]

you know, I thought I had read that info in a sourcebook (I was using Sarna.net for my quotes though because I was not with my books at the time) but you're right, I can't seem to find it in a book right now, hmm