Author Topic: Core Rulebook Splitting  (Read 57661 times)

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #210 on: 10 October 2019, 16:51:19 »
I did... it didn't work.

https://youtu.be/jv9sDn_2XkI

What benifits?

You’ve proven allergic to anything resembling good business sense so I doubt explaining would help

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Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #211 on: 10 October 2019, 16:58:49 »
Nice Stones reference...  ^-^

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #212 on: 10 October 2019, 17:03:01 »
Thinking about it, not changing the page numbers would in fact be the easiest resolution. It would create the least work and disruption

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Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #213 on: 10 October 2019, 17:07:19 »
Well, if you can talk TPTB into it, you get my vote... :)

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #214 on: 10 October 2019, 17:13:25 »
*snip*
You might try to convince CGL to run two sets of errata with page numbers for both versions.
*snip*
I did... it didn't work.

Page references are nice. Sanity is nicer.  So I’ve heard.
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #215 on: 10 October 2019, 17:36:41 »
Well, if you can talk TPTB into it, you get my vote... :)

my zone of influence is about the same as BA ECM

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #216 on: 10 October 2019, 17:42:55 »
Which is 30m more than mine...  ::)

Greatclub

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #217 on: 10 October 2019, 17:52:53 »
What benifits?

Publishing costs have gone through the roof
Brick an mortar stores are becoming rarer and rarer.
Distributors are cutting themselves to the bone.
Kickstarted products are taking a huge chunk of the market.

Stuff that weren't big issues even a few years ago, when they tried battletech 2, AKA Alpha Strike. CGLs overwhelming priority at this point is getting battletech in distribution warehouses and from there back in B&M. If a few corners have to get cut to achieve that, so be it. Perfect is (sometimes) the enemy of good
« Last Edit: 10 October 2019, 18:00:49 by Greatclub »

kinwolf

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #218 on: 10 October 2019, 17:59:25 »
I have to say I have never, ever, looked at an errata sheet for any RPG I ever owned and played, so it's a no-impact for me, but I can see how it could bother those who follow that religiously.  Maybe start a fan-project to translate the new erratas to the old book page number?  (But honestly, after so many reprints of the same stuff, there shouldn't be any more erratas, right?  ::) )

I was looking at Sartris description of TacOps in the "https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=44730.0" thread and I will probably pass on the new reprint in 2 volumes because of cost vs value.   It becomes quite expensive for the probable limited I would extract out of them as a gamer with limited time.
« Last Edit: 10 October 2019, 18:03:45 by kinwolf »

RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #219 on: 11 October 2019, 01:15:20 »
I can think of one benefit right off the bat. That the book will be in print at all.  CGL is a business and has to ensure that they are getting return on investment.  If there were enough return on investment to keep the book in print in it's current form we wouldn't have this thread.

It has been pretty plainly laid out by CGL staff that TacOps in it's current form is not receiving enough return on investment to keep printing it.

In a choice between split it or not have it at all I know which I'd choose.


Then why are the rule books printed so big in the first place and why pad the page count with stories?

well, let's say we split TacOps, but don't restart numbering from Page 0?

There can be A01 thru AXX for the new appendixes and TOCs and so forth, but the pages of rules between the split and non-split editions will be the same so new books don't have wrong references.

Not a good solution, or one I think likely to be done, but it is a solution.

Keeping the page numbers would help but you'd still have to say what book to look in.

Publishing costs have gone through the roof
Brick an mortar stores are becoming rarer and rarer.
Distributors are cutting themselves to the bone.
Kickstarted products are taking a huge chunk of the market.

Stuff that weren't big issues even a few years ago, when they tried battletech 2, AKA Alpha Strike. CGLs overwhelming priority at this point is getting battletech in distribution warehouses and from there back in B&M. If a few corners have to get cut to achieve that, so be it. Perfect is (sometimes) the enemy of good

I get all that but how does producing two books instead of one help? You're adding pages and you have twice the covers and binding.

Why spend time on yet another rules set when TO could have been edited to bring it under 400 pages?



Greatclub

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #220 on: 11 October 2019, 01:32:33 »
They were printed that big because times were different. The current problem isn't the arbetrary limit of 400 pages, but that it is the size of a paizo corebook with a fraction the runsize.

Taking out a few pages of fiction wouldn't help enough, and helps some people get into the universe.

monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #221 on: 11 October 2019, 01:33:35 »

Then why are the rule books printed so big in the first place and why pad the page count with stories?

I get all that but how does producing two books instead of one help? You're adding pages and you have twice the covers and binding.

Why spend time on yet another rules set when TO could have been edited to bring it under 400 pages?

Because at one point in the past there was enough return on investment to warrant such decisions.  That has obviously changed.

The people with more access to sales figures, more time running a gaming company, and market trend research than you or I have come to the conclusion that there was no way to cut enough pages to keep everything in one book and have sufficient return on investment.

I feel like I've pointed this all out to you more than once in this thread.

Ursus Maior

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #222 on: 11 October 2019, 04:05:04 »
lol, I can see the post . . .

"Hey, I just bought this new rule book and it starts on page 236 after the table of contents.  Did I get a misprinted book?"
It's pretty common in certain text based sciences though. Conference volumes in two or even three tomes.
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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #223 on: 11 October 2019, 04:07:23 »
Maybe start a fan-project to translate the new erratas to the old book page number?
Sounds like a webiste over at Sarna.
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RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #224 on: 11 October 2019, 05:26:57 »
Because at one point in the past there was enough return on investment to warrant such decisions.  That has obviously changed.

The people with more access to sales figures, more time running a gaming company, and market trend research than you or I have come to the conclusion that there was no way to cut enough pages to keep everything in one book and have sufficient return on investment.

I feel like I've pointed this all out to you more than once in this thread.

They were printed that big because times were different. The current problem isn't the arbetrary limit of 400 pages, but that it is the size of a paizo corebook with a fraction the runsize.

Taking out a few pages of fiction wouldn't help enough, and helps some people get into the universe.


I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how having more intro and credits pages, table of contents pages, and index pages along with twice the hard covers and binding helps with cost. Maybe there's some discount or something I've missed but right now, I'm sorry. I don't get it.


nckestrel

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #225 on: 11 October 2019, 06:57:33 »
Perhaps because you don’t have the information to make that decision, aren’t going to get that information, and have to just acknowledge that the people with that information and making that decision are doing so because of that information and not because they are... what exactly are you proposing they are doing?
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Moonsword

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #226 on: 11 October 2019, 08:12:34 »
+++MOD NOTICE+++

Folks, personal observations about other forum posters can verge on Rule 1.  Tread lightly; preferably don't go there at all.  This is about the debate, not the people.

Apocal

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #227 on: 11 October 2019, 08:46:57 »

I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how having more intro and credits pages, table of contents pages, and index pages along with twice the hard covers and binding helps with cost. Maybe there's some discount or something I've missed but right now, I'm sorry. I don't get it.

Because intro and credits, table of contents, index pages, etc. presumably don't add up to a hundred and some odd pages.

mbear

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #228 on: 11 October 2019, 09:51:50 »

I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how having more intro and credits pages, table of contents pages, and index pages along with twice the hard covers and binding helps with cost. Maybe there's some discount or something I've missed but right now, I'm sorry. I don't get it.

This is all speculation but...

-A 400 page book means 400 pages of possible errors so there's probably some cost adjustment for dealing with that annoyance.
-A 400 page book is going to take longer to print simply because there are more pages. And if the printer's life is anything like mine the print jobs will finish at the most inconvenient time, like at hour 7.5 of an 8 hour shift so you can't start the binding process on the same day as the print run. That in turn leads to more labor costs.
-A 400 page book will probably require more setup in the printer than a 200 page book, just because it's longer. If I'm not mistaken* the printers aren't like the ones you and I have access to in our homes or even a print shop. They're more like newspaper presses where you have to build the job just so or it's a total writeoff. (See this Imposition article for more info.)
-A 400 page book may well require special handling or tools for sewing the signatures together because it's thicker than a 200 page book. That can be another cost passed on to the customer (CGL) by the publisher, especially if the 400 page books are a tiny part of their publishing business.

Conversely, the 200 page books may avoid all those issues, so there's a lower cost to the publisher. That in turn means a lower cost to CGL, which (hopefully) means a lower cost to us.




As a different metaphor consider what a pain in the neck it can be to store documents printed on Legal sized paper (8.5" by 14") when everything in your office is sized to only handle Letter sized paper (8.5" by 11"). It's just different enough to be annoying. Apparently the 400 page books are Legal sized papers in a Letter sized publishing house.

*And I have been before, even as recently as two weeks ago.
« Last Edit: 11 October 2019, 09:55:11 by mbear »
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Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #229 on: 11 October 2019, 09:59:19 »
- a 400 page book x thousands of copies is objectively heavier. the boat from china does not bring them for free
- the set is $80 instead of $50.
- the second volume (units and gear) will undoubtedly sell more quickly. initial runs and reprints can be more responsive to demand.

the more appropriately priced box has already proven better-suited to stay in print. why should they stick to the old model where we waited years between reprints again?

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Maingunnery

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #230 on: 11 October 2019, 10:05:01 »
There is also another issue of 'value to customer'.
Many people aren't completists (wanting to have everything), they instead determine if the content in which they are interested in is available at a reasonable price.
That 400 page book is expensive, which means that for many players that it is too expensive in relation to the sub-section that they are actually interested in.
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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #231 on: 11 October 2019, 10:09:28 »
I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how having more intro and credits pages, table of contents pages, and index pages along with twice the hard covers and binding helps with cost. Maybe there's some discount or something I've missed but right now, I'm sorry. I don't get it.

Well . . . from pg 5 or 6-

How many grognards did not buy TO b/c it had 'equipment I will never use, I do not want to support any of that *insert adjective of choice*" when it came out?  Its a well proven theory, complete with graphs and other fun facts, that the buying decision is a curve- you can get X buyers at this price point, and if you raise it another $5 you will get X-Y buyers.  Splitting the book, even if the price is not completely split- say instead of the $40 for old TO we get $25 or $30, you are going to get more buyers for the rules or equipment than you would have people buying original TO with both.  Which will include the grogs who refused to buy advanced rules that they might have used b/c they were compatible with their ideal 3025 game they would not have bought with equipment.

And as Sartis keeps pointing out, its not the 1 time buy they are really looking at but being a bit more flexible to market place demand.  I will predict this . . . with the Kickstarter sending everyone their first mechs in March 2020, I am willing to bet the Advanced Rules TO portion will need to be reprinted before the Advanced Equipment TO portion.  Because the people who bought in just to get the IS mechs (like that thread we had) and are returning might want to dabble with some of the advanced rules- I know I prefer being able to turn off the Guass Rifle's capacitors so it does not damage the whole machine or hurt the pilot.
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kinwolf

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #232 on: 11 October 2019, 12:14:47 »
So we have one bet that the second volume will sell faster and one bet that the first will.  Where is the bookmaker? ;D

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #233 on: 11 October 2019, 12:20:11 »
Huh?  so far as I know no one else is saying either will sell better.
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kinwolf

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #234 on: 11 October 2019, 12:41:50 »
Sartis mentionned that he thinks the second volume(equipment) will sell more quickly.(the message above yours)

Colt Ward

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #235 on: 11 October 2019, 13:42:35 »
Well, if it does, great . . . it means people are exploring into the current (MWDA) timeline.  I would happily be wrong about which one sells.  Normally I would say equipment sells, I just figure rules might with people getting KS minis and people getting back into the game.
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monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #236 on: 11 October 2019, 13:47:56 »
I have zero doubt that one volume will sell more and spend less time on the shelves than the other.

Which one it will be is unclear to me as yet for I can make cases for either.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #237 on: 11 October 2019, 14:15:16 »
-A 400 page book is going to take longer to print simply because there are more pages.

Most large presses are all digital and the number of pages is more a collation and binding problem than one for the press

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #238 on: 11 October 2019, 17:12:50 »
I can at least answer the "index" aspect of duplicated sections in two books.  Unless I'm greatly mistaken, neither volume will have an index.  Campaign Operations didn't, and my question as to it receiving one went unanswered...

*snip*
(like that thread we had)
*snip*
You're welcome!  :)

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #239 on: 11 October 2019, 18:12:55 »
I have zero doubt that one volume will sell more and spend less time on the shelves than the other.

Which one it will be is unclear to me as yet for I can make cases for either.

My assumption is the equipment half will because playing in later eras requires it unless you do mechs only with the BMM

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