Core Rulebook Splitting

[monbvol]

My assumption is the equipment half will because playing in later eras requires it unless you do mechs only with the BMM

Not that I actually completely disagree but in a way that's what makes me think the opposite has just as good of a chance of being the dominant volume, the advanced rules will offer more to people who already have the BMM than the equipment section.

Either way I expect the sales to be to show a clearly dominant volume in terms of both total volume and how little time it sits on shelves.

[Daryk]

My personal buy will be pdf only... I have the (single) hard copy, and download all the errata as it becomes available.  I acknowledge this only drives TPTB to further harden their decision to not include indices, but it still rubs me wrong...

[Sartris]

Not that I actually completely disagree but in a way that's what makes me think the opposite has just as good of a chance of being the dominant volume, the advanced rules will offer more to people who already have the BMM than the equipment section.

Either way I expect the sales to be to show a clearly dominant volume in terms of both total volume and how little time it sits on shelves.

Equally valid logic. I barely understand me much less other people

[RifleMech]

Thank you for the answers but there's still a couple things I don't get.

If the set is $80.00 and a single book is $50 dollars, isn't the single book less expensive to buy? And is $10.00 more really too much for a book twice the book? Even if the price was $60.00 wouldn't it still be more affordable than $80.00?

Even if the page count doesn't change, there's still 400 pages that could need errata at some point. Only now its in two different books. That split would effect previous and later books that reference this TO, or at least the second half. Wouldn't it?

Again, presuming page count doesn't change, wouldn't the extra binding and covers actually increase the weight and size of the "set" making them more expensive and more of a pain to lug around? Is this why we're going to pay $80 instead of $50?

The PDFs are going to increase in price too won't they?

Will both books be available in equal numbers? It's been my experience that later volumes are harder to get because fewer of them are printed.

And finally, don't you need the rule book part to use the equipment part and visa versa? For example the rules for Artillery and Mines are in the first half but their equipment is in the second half. You need both to use them.


I know you're all cursing me but I'm hoping you're all right and that things will work out. I don't see how but miracles do happen.

[monbvol]

They are only more expensive versus the established cost.  TPTB have determined that with the rising costs of putting physical books on shelves the most cost effective measure for the short term is to split the book.  The book simply cannot stay in one volume and be priced to provide sufficient return on investment and would almost certainly sit on store shelves longer than it already is if the price were increased.

Going to two volumes won't change the errata process hardly at all.  As far as other books referencing TacOps there is no way around some measure of pain for that but I suspect doing it now will minimize any such pain.

It'd be a very minor amount of extra binding and covers.  As far as having to lug both around?  Well that again would be a fairly minimal amount of extra weight and volume but most players will probably only have the rules section.

Nothing has been stated about the PDF versions as yet in terms of pricing.

Both volumes probably will be available in equal numbers initially but once the numbers are in for which one is more popular I would expect that to change the balance going forward.  Might take a few print runs though before enough data is available though.

No you don't need the rules part to use the equipment part.  Everything you need to know about any piece of equipment when minis are on the mapsheet is entirely in the rules section.  The equipment section is only useful for when designing units.

[RifleMech]

They are only more expensive versus the established cost.  TPTB have determined that with the rising costs of putting physical books on shelves the most cost effective measure for the short term is to split the book.  The book simply cannot stay in one volume and be priced to provide sufficient return on investment and would almost certainly sit on store shelves longer than it already is if the price were increased.

Going to two volumes won't change the errata process hardly at all.  As far as other books referencing TacOps there is no way around some measure of pain for that but I suspect doing it now will minimize any such pain.

It'd be a very minor amount of extra binding and covers.  As far as having to lug both around?  Well that again would be a fairly minimal amount of extra weight and volume but most players will probably only have the rules section.

Nothing has been stated about the PDF versions as yet in terms of pricing.

Both volumes probably will be available in equal numbers initially but once the numbers are in for which one is more popular I would expect that to change the balance going forward.  Might take a few print runs though before enough data is available though.

Hope so to most and hope the price stays the same.

No you don't need the rules part to use the equipment part.  Everything you need to know about any piece of equipment when minis are on the mapsheet is entirely in the rules section.  The equipment section is only useful for when designing units.

Not so. Rules for how equipment gives and takes damage are in the equipment section. For example you have a mini with Reflective Armor, the rules section won't help you. You need the equipment section to know how it takes damage.




I hope you all will forgive me for asking another really stupid question about a new version of TO, split or not, and if answered already forgive me for missing it.   Will the new version of TO take into account how some items have changed rule levels?

[Sartris]

Not so. Rules for how equipment gives and takes damage are in the equipment section. For example you have a mini with Reflective Armor, the rules section won't help you. You need the equipment section to know how it takes damage.

Right. you don't need volume 1 for reflective armor. the rules are fully contained on pg 281

[monbvol]

Hope so to most and hope the price stays the same.

Not so. Rules for how equipment gives and takes damage are in the equipment section. For example you have a mini with Reflective Armor, the rules section won't help you. You need the equipment section to know how it takes damage.




I hope you all will forgive me for asking another really stupid question about a new version of TO, split or not, and if answered already forgive me for missing it.   Will the new version of TO take into account how some items have changed rule levels?

I question why someone wouldn't already know such things before minis are on the mapsheet between what is already on the record sheet and due diligence.

[RifleMech]

I question why someone wouldn't already know such things before minis are on the mapsheet between what is already on the record sheet and due diligence.

How would a new player, returning player or any player, who doesn't have TRO:Prototypes know that some items change rule levels? Does knowing that mean players should memorize the changes? Or be forced to carry around both books? Have the RS been errata'ed to indicate which units changed levels? How would players know the RS had been errata'ed?  Not all players visit the forums and not all those that do check the errata threads. So how would they know or remember? That's why I asked if TO was going to be errata'ed with those rule changes.

Right. you don't need volume 1 for reflective armor. the rules are fully contained on pg 281

Exactly. You can't just plunk a unit down with the rules section and play. You have to have the equipment part to know how to use the equipment. You have to have Vol2 in order to use reflective armor. Its like that for many things.

[Colt Ward]

Our table has a pretty simple rule . . . any equipment or ammo you bring, you need to have the rule page for it and be able to explain it.  For some of the MWDA mechs, I have put the TO or FM3145 page number on the RS and before I put PDFs on the kindle I had a doc with a single page set of quotes from the rules for things like Radical HS, Supercharger, Blue Shield and VSPLs.

If you bring it, its up to you to have the rules handy- not who you are playing against.

Riflemech-  what he is saying is that everything pertaining to Reflec Armor will be in Vol2 as part of the equipment section.

[monbvol]

How would a new player, returning player or any player, who doesn't have TRO:Prototypes know that some items change rule levels? Does knowing that mean players should memorize the changes? Or be forced to carry around both books? Have the RS been errata'ed to indicate which units changed levels? How would players know the RS had been errata'ed?  Not all players visit the forums and not all those that do check the errata threads. So how would they know or remember? That's why I asked if TO was going to be errata'ed with those rule changes.


Exactly. You can't just plunk a unit down with the rules section and play. You have to have the equipment part to know how to use the equipment. You have to have Vol2 in order to use reflective armor. Its like that for many things.

Irrelevant for two reasons.

1. It is actually technically only the availability of equipment that has changed.  Though I'll admit how CGL handled this was a bit of a mess.

2. Unless someone is being a jerk all of this should be discussed/handled before record sheets are printed and minis meet mapsheet.

So no you don't need to memorize, you just need to use some due diligence and talk with your group.

Our table has a pretty simple rule . . . any equipment or ammo you bring, you need to have the rule page for it and be able to explain it.  For some of the MWDA mechs, I have put the TO or FM3145 page number on the RS and before I put PDFs on the kindle I had a doc with a single page set of quotes from the rules for things like Radical HS, Supercharger, Blue Shield and VSPLs.

If you bring it, its up to you to have the rules handy- not who you are playing against.

Riflemech-  what he is saying is that everything pertaining to Reflec Armor will be in Vol2 as part of the equipment section.

My group is pretty good about having PDFs handy and physical books if need be so we mostly just have to talk about what kind of game we want to play and not be that demanding.

So what I'm saying is if you don't know how something works maybe research it before hand and maybe have a page reference if you really need one or choose another mech that you are more familiar with the equipment on.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, usually we have books . . . 2 or so TWs, a BMM, TO & TM . . . but sometimes its four or more separate fights going too.  Plus, someone might leave one of the books on accident, so the simple rule is if you are bringing something post FCCW that is new, have the rules.  Heck, the FLGS has wi-fi so sometimes we cheat and look on Sarna for the page number if someone forgot.

But it comes down to the person bringing whatever to be sure its implemented right.

[Maingunnery]

My experience in recent years was one rulebook (such as BattleMech Manual) and the rest as PDFs (relevant pages already noted).

Actual Physical advanced rulebooks have become a bit rare, becoming mostly a collectors item.

[RifleMech]

(snip)

Riflemech-  what he is saying is that everything pertaining to Reflec Armor will be in Vol2 as part of the equipment section.

What I was replying to was not needing the "Construction" part of the book to use the mini on the table. You need to have the book in order to use equipment. You can't print out the requisite page without the book.

Irrelevant for two reasons.

1. It is actually technically only the availability of equipment that has changed.  Though I'll admit how CGL handled this was a bit of a mess.

2. Unless someone is being a jerk all of this should be discussed/handled before record sheets are printed and minis meet mapsheet.

So no you don't need to memorize, you just need to use some due diligence and talk with your group.

My group is pretty good about having PDFs handy and physical books if need be so we mostly just have to talk about what kind of game we want to play and not be that demanding.

So what I'm saying is if you don't know how something works maybe research it before hand and maybe have a page reference if you really need one or choose another mech that you are more familiar with the equipment on.

Sorry but that's incorrect.

1. I don't know if availability changed or not. I do  know that rule levels for many of the items in TacOps have changed levels. There's a big list of equipment in TRO:Prototypes that includes old levels and new levels. Some items went from Experimental to advanced and even Tournament Legal.  (I do agree the handling was a mess and there should have been an errata for TacOps a long time ago.)

2. I agree but someone's got to have the book in order to use those items. TO isn't laid out the same way TW and TM are. They still have problems but you can get away with just having TW.  Its not the same for TO. Splitting TO would be like removing the Other Combat Weapons and Equipment sections (pages 129-143) and the tables from Total Warfare.

[Sartris]

My guess is they will not change. The rules level is variable across eras (and within as well, especially the late jihad and early republic). TO like TW is set in the late 3060s so the rules levels will be consistent with that time period.

A system that is supposed to by era agnostic but still adheres to the chronology of the forward plot arc like the 90s is one of the main issues I have with the long-term residency of the TW line.

[RifleMech]

Thing is rule levels can be used independent of dates. If equipment is going to be changing levels, one would think that would be mentioned in the rule book some where.

[Greatclub]

things might go on a graph plus a few special branches, like the Society equipment.

Clan invasion standard          Civil War Standard         Jihad Standard         Dark Age Standard
Clan invasion Advanced         Civil War Advanced        Jihad Advanced         Dark Age Advanced         
Clan invasion Experimental    Civil War Experimental    Jihad Experimental    Dark Age Experimental   

[Daryk]

You forgot 3025 era...  ::)

[Greatclub]

You forgot 3025 era...  ::)

I forgot the 3039 era. 3025 is introtech, pretty much period.

[Daryk]

There are advanced and experimental items available in 3025.  The Blazer Cannon, Artillery Cannons, Recon Cameras and Remote Sensor Dispensers among them...

[Sartris]

There’s also a superheavy tank

[monbvol]

Thing is rule levels can be used independent of dates. If equipment is going to be changing levels, one would think that would be mentioned in the rule book some where.

A lot of this is handled in various other products, many of which a player will already have if they are playing that type of game.

So I don't see the need for such information to be included in the rules.

[RifleMech]

A lot of this is handled in various other products, many of which a player will already have if they are playing that type of game.

So I don't see the need for such information to be included in the rules.

Not all players, especially new and returning players, may have those products. Many long term players might not have those products. There are some players who stick to certain time periods so they'd see TO of use but not a TRO for an era 100 years later.

Rule books should contain the rules. I know things change and new tech comes out but those things should be gathered an put into the rules eventually. Players shouldn't have to hunt for them. There's also the big question of, if it isn't in a new rule book is it still valid?

[Sartris]

it's an issue that's not going to be potentially fixed until the next iteration of the corebooks is released (if they even decide to do it that way)

in the meantime, use the tables in IO.

[victor_shaw]

Not up for reading the entire thread, but wondering what is new here.
The battletech line has had split rules since its inception.
Mech/Infantry+vehicles/aerospace/warship.
The only change in the last run was to split it along the play levels.
Basic/standard/advanced

Now the splitting of the new books is probably a cost issues.
Page count cost have really gone up in the last few years, so I can understand them wanting to lower the cost by splitting the larger 400+ page books into smaller 200+ page books as long as the prices match-up with the split.
Now if they split them an still try to charge $60 for them we will have a problem, but if they come in at under $40 I don't see the issue. 

[RifleMech]

it's an issue that's not going to be potentially fixed until the next iteration of the corebooks is released (if they even decide to do it that way)

in the meantime, use the tables in IO.

Maybe I'm looking too hard but I'm not seeing what items changed rule levels in IO.

[Sartris]

it tells you when equipment shifts from prototype to production to common. the key at the beginning of the table explains how that correlates to I/TL/A/E rules levels

[monbvol]

Not all players, especially new and returning players, may have those products. Many long term players might not have those products. There are some players who stick to certain time periods so they'd see TO of use but not a TRO for an era 100 years later.

Rule books should contain the rules. I know things change and new tech comes out but those things should be gathered an put into the rules eventually. Players shouldn't have to hunt for them. There's also the big question of, if it isn't in a new rule book is it still valid?

If they don't have the relevant product then it isn't an issue then is it?

[Greatclub]

It's an issue, has been an issue for a long time given how many books stuff is spread over. One they're moving to fix. In the meantime stuff is available PDF.

[SCC]

lol, I can see the post . . .

"Hey, I just bought this new rule book and it starts on page 236 after the table of contents.  Did I get a misprinted book?"

Given that GURPS Basic Set (Hardcopy) books are numbered in exactly this fashion, I doubt it's going to be a problem.