’Mech of the Week TRO 3145 Special: Loki Mk II (Hel)

[Dragon Cat]

You do have a pocket assault, it's called the Executioner  8)

This thing is a monster... 40 tons of pod space on a 65 ton mech???  Yeesh.  It screams for iJJ's with that much space and 4/6 ground speed.

Surprisingly there were not any IJJ Mechs in 3145 Clans seems weird considering the last few TROs with Clan Mechs have been full of them - maybe just a shift away from new toy syndrome.

[Col.Hengist]

I made one with ijj's. I wasn't impressed.

[Kotetsu]

Well, they also didn't have a suicide machine (that I saw).

[Wildonion]

It is often about the attention a 'Mech will get. The Hel is a 4/6 moving 40t warload package. It is not that hard to hit, it is fairly thin skinned- so why not shoot at it? It is too dangerous to let it live and not that hard to kill.

So rather than give the Hel a unique role as a high payload support unit, something akin to the Mad Dog, it should have been another Thor or Timber Wolf? I really don't think we need another 5/8/x heavy cav 'Mech when they are already well represented in the TRO. The Hel is a long range support chassis, designed to carry a large number of long-range weapons to support the heavier designs that can carry the armor to survive a close-in battle. Park this thing in some good cover--especially behind a level one hill, which can turn potential hits into misses while defending the more fragile legs--and let this baby go to work. It has a good amount of armor, especially for a support design, and can survive a few shots from the enemy.

[blitzy]

I was wondering, is the 'Hel' Designation official or is it our nickname for it?

[Kopfjager]

It's official, and in a way, fitting as well, being a reference to both the old clan name (Hellbringer, shortened) and the IS name (Loki, in mythology the father of Hel).

[Diablo48]

So rather than give the Hel a unique role as a high payload support unit, something akin to the Mad Dog, it should have been another Thor or Timber Wolf? I really don't think we need another 5/8/x heavy cav 'Mech when they are already well represented in the TRO. The Hel is a long range support chassis, designed to carry a large number of long-range weapons to support the heavier designs that can carry the armor to survive a close-in battle. Park this thing in some good cover--especially behind a level one hill, which can turn potential hits into misses while defending the more fragile legs--and let this baby go to work. It has a good amount of armor, especially for a support design, and can survive a few shots from the enemy.

That does not really work for the Clans unless you want to load up on UAC 2's or artillery (which is actually not a terrible idea with that much pod space).  Brawlers are uncommon among the Clans because most of their tech advantage over the IS goes into increasing long range performance so most of those heavily armored line fighters you described are going to want to fight from the same range as the Hel, especially against IS tech.  Trading a ton of pod space for more armor across the torso would have helped, but this is really a fundamental problem with the pocket assault concept so the only way to truly fix without adding another 20 tons to the frame is special armor (preferably FL) and maybe some other tricks like reinforced IS to make it more durable.

[FedSunsBorn]

While the original Loki/Hellbringer was all about guns and speed, screw armor, this new Loki Mk II/Hel seems to be about guns, more guns and a little more armor added on the side, screw speed.

[Wildonion]

That does not really work for the Clans unless you want to load up on UAC 2's or artillery (which is actually not a terrible idea with that much pod space).  Brawlers are uncommon among the Clans because most of their tech advantage over the IS goes into increasing long range performance so most of those heavily armored line fighters you described are going to want to fight from the same range as the Hel, especially against IS tech.  Trading a ton of pod space for more armor across the torso would have helped, but this is really a fundamental problem with the pocket assault concept so the only way to truly fix without adding another 20 tons to the frame is special armor (preferably FL) and maybe some other tricks like reinforced IS to make it more durable.

I definitely agree that pocket assaults are difficult to pull off, especially with 60 ton and 65 ton chassis. It really would be more reasonable to use 4/6/x 80 ton machines. Not as expensive as a high end 100 tonner, but capable of carrying the extra tonnage and not missing the loss of movement overly much. However, the increasing use of ATM launchers, HAG systems, and heavy lasers show a Clan military that is willing to close the range gap with its opponents and hammer them with more potent CQC weaponry. We have designs built for that that share the same TRO as the Hel.

Thor II B only gets more dangerous the closer it gets thanks to the ATM launchers, while retaining the option of staying at range while it whittles down a target with the LRM racks. Warwolf C and H are certainly at their best when they get close to the enemy to make use of their ATMs/Pulse Lasers and Heavy Large Lasers, respectively. Outside of the TRO we have the Vulture Mk. IV Prime, C, and D; there is also Mad Cat Mk. IV A and B. All of these are better at getting in close to an enemy and exploiting their greater damage potential at shorter ranges than similar Inner Sphere designs.There are also older designs, like Nova Prime, Stormcrow B, and Man O' War C that are all about mixing it up at close range, though they are probably rare in this era.

Oddly enough the Vulture III, a design that I really expected to fight more like the Hel, has a pair of variants designed to get close to the enemy and hammer them with short-range missiles. With something so close in weight that it only reinforces the need for having the Hel operate as differently as possible to provide a product that doesn't feel like it is set on repeat. Hardly an in-universe explanation, I know, but I think it is worth keeping in mind.

When I look at the Hel, I see a machine that is built to fill a support role in the Jade Falcon Touman. The Falcon's aggressive combat style means that more of their warriors are willing to mix it up with the enemy and they need somebody to hang back and support them. Why not use a machine that is carrying twin gauss rifles and ER large lasers? (Very Rifleman like, come to think of it...) Or a Long Tom? It certainly beats out the Gyrfalcon, though the Shrike is hard to argue with as being the better option. Talk about a nasty ride!

Then again, maybe I just like the machine too much. It is quite possible that I am over-defending it. :D

[Scotty]

The Hellbringer II as Rifleman done right?  I can buy it.

[Headshot]

Anyone else has a problem with the idea of a Clan "Support" Mech?
Sure, there are others, like the Naga, but the Hel is a frontline Omni!
Besides, its from the Horses, shouldn't they use their vees for the support roles?
Or did just everything that defined the Clans go out of the window in those 50 years? :(

I was wondering, is the 'Hel' Designation official or is it our nickname for it?

Did you even read the article?

[Scotty]

'Support' is only how we players would classify it, and even then I'm not sure I agree.

Sure, it's lower on armor than some 65 tonners, but it's also the Hellbringer's clear descendent.  A 'Mech like this, I would use the same way I use the original Hellbringer, which is to charge into battle like a madman (using cover and limiting engagements appropriately) and then tape down the triggers until things start falling off one or both combatants, and then just tape down more triggers now that you have the spare heat sinks for it.

Brawl hard.  You don't have the armor of a 75 ton Omni, but no 75 ton Omni has your firepower, either.

[marauder648]

Anyone else has a problem with the idea of a Clan "Support" Mech?
Sure, there are others, like the Naga, but the Hel is a frontline Omni!
Besides, its from the Horses, shouldn't they use their vees for the support roles?
Or did just everything that defined the Clans go out of the window in those 50 years? :(
Did you even read the article?

The Clans use to have issues with support mechs but that's clearly slowly changed over the years with machines more capable of multiple roles without going to extremes of I WILL DO THIS REALLY WELL! but be terrible at absolutely everything else.  Also the changes in the Clans to me show that they are producing more rational and well rounded designs instead of the battlecruiser concept of the invasion.  By battlecruiser I mean firepower and speed at the expense of armour, this rang true for pritty much every mech up to the Warhawk and Direwolf.  Clan mechs tended to be as fast as the average mech of a the next lighter weight class (Heavies moving like mediums, mediums moving like lights in some cases) and packed a MASSIVE punch but lacked the ability to really use this armament without some serious heat management juggling, and then there was the armour, clan mechs tended to be under armoured until you got into the big boys.

That the clans are more willing to design a more balanced machine that does not emphasise one thing over another is more that they have learned what the Inner Sphere is like, what they fight like and what to expect.  The older machines were great for the then highly stylised style of warfare the Clans used, but against people not willing to use Zell and practiced with working together as a group rather than highly skilled individuals it did have some shortcomings. 

The Clans are now making machines in the reality of the Inner Sphere and their more balanced and rounded designs are far more lethal for it. 

[SCC]

The Clans use to have issues with support mechs but that's clearly slowly changed over the years with machines more capable of multiple roles without going to extremes of I WILL DO THIS REALLY WELL! but be terrible at absolutely everything else.  Also the changes in the Clans to me show that they are producing more rational and well rounded designs instead of the battlecruiser concept of the invasion.  By battlecruiser I mean firepower and speed at the expense of armour, this rang true for pritty much every mech up to the Warhawk and Direwolf.  Clan mechs tended to be as fast as the average mech of a the next lighter weight class (Heavies moving like mediums, mediums moving like lights in some cases) and packed a MASSIVE punch but lacked the ability to really use this armament without some serious heat management juggling, and then there was the armour, clan mechs tended to be under armoured until you got into the big boys.

That the clans are more willing to design a more balanced machine that does not emphasise one thing over another is more that they have learned what the Inner Sphere is like, what they fight like and what to expect.  The older machines were great for the then highly stylised style of warfare the Clans used, but against people not willing to use Zell and practiced with working together as a group rather than highly skilled individuals it did have some shortcomings. 

The Clans are now making machines in the reality of the Inner Sphere and their more balanced and rounded designs are far more lethal for it.

Hm, a true second generation Woodsmen would be interesting, lots of podspace and a decent speed

But what you describe is nothing compared to something that's been rattling around inside my head for a while

[marauder648]

I've not got the book with the woodsman in it but it seems like a formidable machine, a more modern and 'rational' Clans version would probably have an XL 300 rated engine with tonnage going to heat sinks and fire control systems and/or ammo.  The A variant, a pure energy boat's formidably armed and you could probably expect an ATM variant as the Clans are cramming those onto everything that can carry them it seems.

[blitzy]

Did you even read the article?

I did, but in the TRO I found no reference to the 'Hel' part so I was curious about it.

[Pa Weasley]

I did, but in the TRO I found no reference to the 'Hel' part so I was curious about it.

Let me direct you to the following post in the errata thread.

[Moonsword]

'Support' is only how we players would classify it, and even then I'm not sure I agree.

Sure, it's lower on armor than some 65 tonners, but it's also the Hellbringer's clear descendent.  A 'Mech like this, I would use the same way I use the original Hellbringer, which is to charge into battle like a madman (using cover and limiting engagements appropriately) and then tape down the triggers until things start falling off one or both combatants, and then just tape down more triggers now that you have the spare heat sinks for it.

Brawl hard.  You don't have the armor of a 75 ton Omni, but no 75 ton Omni has your firepower, either.

Other than the Night Gyr - it's an extremely even match in raw firepower at 38 tons of pod space, 12 fixed heat sinks, 4 fixed jump jets.  I haven't tried it but I think you could actually fit the Night Gyr D onto a Hel, although you'd probably have to rearrange the crits a bit.  Hels have 5 more crits but you get to pay 4 of them and your extra podspace back out to match the Night Gyr's greater number of fixed heat sinks and you're not getting the jump jets.

The Flamberge and especially the Nova Cat are no slouches in this department, either, although I'm not sure of the Flamberge's configurations sometimes.

[jymset]

Moonsword, I just want to call you out again: great job indeed!

I gave you the MechCommander-Loki-W straightjacket for the Prime, but I love the little details of your device, the small cockpit, and most of all, Configuration B. It's become a quick favourite, powerful enough to defend itself, clever enough to be a gigantic threat to battle armor.

[Moonsword]

Which would be why the Hel is so slow - the podspace is a requirement for the armaments on the Prime, not the goal in and of itself.  You can get similar practical tonnage out of an XXL 5/8 design, but you do wind up losing two tons (at minimum) on top of the increased heat load and the increased vulnerability of the engine.  Not really worth it in my opinion.

It's also a demonstration of how the design process works.  While I had a lot of freedom about how I went about doing it, the weapons load on the Prime wasn't up for discussion (all 34 tons of it, more than any of the original heavy Omnis can manage, or any of the assaults short of the Dire Wolf), nor was the tonnage.  Personally, I also promised myself that I wouldn't pull the annoying cop-out of only loading just two tons of Gauss ammo.  That meant that whatever happened, this design had to max out the podspace to stuff at least 38 tons of gear on, and I also wanted to beg, borrow, or steal the tonnage to beef the armor up to acceptable levels.  The small cockpit came directly from that particular goal.

Little secret: The original draft of the Prime's critical layout was a little different, with the ERLLs in the head.  jymset changed it to match the artwork.

[templarmagnus]

Am I the only one questioning why there isn't a CQB configuration?  This thing can carry 2 of the 20 types plus a brace of pulses and absolutely devastate anything at close range.  Its already has the speed of a Hunchback-type brawler, why not go all the way?  Hell, you've already got Gausszilla at range, why not have Ultrazilla roaming the streets?  I'm as against muchie-ness as the next guy, maybe more so, but all of the listed configurations are focused on long-range combat and that just seems very focused for a group of scientists that gave it 40 tons of pod space.

[Scotty]

Probably because 4/6 just doesn't cut it for a short range brawler in 3145.  Having no damage beyond about 12 hexes or so is asking to be outmaneuvered hard.

That said, a couple LPLs with ATMs and backup MPLs would be devastating.

This just in: 2x LPL, 2x ATM-9, 4x MPL.  Extra heatsinks and Clan CASE II to make up the extra tonnage.  At long range, witheringly accurate and surprisingly heavy hitting (potential 38 damage at 20 hexes.  Nothing to sneeze at).  At brutally short range, even more witheringly accurate mix-and-match with whether the ATMs or the LPLs are firing based on target numbers.  With ATMs, up to 76 damage on a heat-neutral running speed.  With LPLs, hideously accurate 38 damage that gets a little toasty.

[Diablo48]

Probably because 4/6 just doesn't cut it for a short range brawler in 3145.  Having no damage beyond about 12 hexes or so is asking to be outmaneuvered hard.

You could still do an urban combat variant because it is an omni so you can just use another configuration when the terrain is not tight enough to keep all engagements under 12 hexes.  Give it some jets to get to 4/6/4 or 4/6/6, throw in an Ultra 20, some SSRMs, MPLs, APGRs, and electronics and you should be good to go.  This is less of an "I want to get in close" configuration and more of a "close combat is the only option" configuration.

[templarmagnus]

You could still do an urban combat variant because it is an omni so you can just use another configuration when the terrain is not tight enough to keep all engagements under 12 hexes.  Give it some jets to get to 4/6/4 or 4/6/6, throw in an Ultra 20, some SSRMs, MPLs, APGRs, and electronics and you should be good to go.  This is less of an "I want to get in close" configuration and more of a "close combat is the only option" configuration.

Exactly.  And with the Mongol doctrine being adopted by the Falcons and the Horses during the time frame the Hel was deployed I imagine that urban combat that was not only something to be anticipated, but was encouraged.

[Jellico]

The Falcon Mongol Doctrine is merely an acknowledgement that if war is going to be, it may as well be total.

Nobody wants to fight in a city unless they are the weaker party. It eliminates the stronger party's strengths.

[marauder648]

Sorry for a bit of Thredomancy but this is relevant considering we've just had the excellent review of the Summoner II.  It does seem with their mechs the Falcons are not only accepting that artillery is a thing, but going all in.  With this mech you've got a machine totting an artillery piece, with the Flamberge C taking an Arrow launcher with lots of reloads.  I'd assume that the Mongol doctrine is the root cause of this seeming (at long bloody last) acceptance that artillery is useful amongst the Falcons or is it the Horses influence on them finally rubbing off? 

[JadeHellbringer]

It should surprise nobody that a Mech called a Hel-B got my attention quickly. What I didn't expect was how much I love using it- it may be my second-favorite Mech of the Dark Age era for the Falcons' use (behind the Gyrfalcon). The other configs are very good, don't get me wrong, but... man, a Hel-B, with that main gun, on a battlefield far more combined-arms oriented than any since the Succession Wars? It just makes battle armor squads melt, and that's really good news. I'm in love with this thing- for being an accidental namesake, it's about as 'me' as one can get.

[Empyrus]

Hel-B... Hel-Bee (Hel-Beads?)... Hel-Bie... Hel-B(ringer).

Inspired me to fit a Long Tom to Loki the last time i played Mechwarrior IV. Man, that was a wonderful machine. Wiped out massed vehicles without effort and killed enemy mechs fast as well.

[marauder648]

Hel-B... Hel-Bee (Hel-Beads?)... Hel-Bie... Hel-B(ringer).

Inspired me to fit a Long Tom to Loki the last time i played Mechwarrior IV. Man, that was a wonderful machine. Wiped out massed vehicles without effort and killed enemy mechs fast as well.

Just don't call it the Hel-Brie, there was that typo in the 3rd Edition of the manual for this thing and I think the Worker Caste responsible for the typo was demoted to work at sewage treatment plants...

[JadeHellbringer]

Just don't call it the Hel-Brie, there was that typo in the 3rd Edition of the manual for this thing and I think the Worker Caste responsible for the typo was demoted to work at sewage treatment plants...

"Let's see... two large pulse lasers in the right arm... Streak-6 up in the shoulder... left arm... if we drop to a Streak-4 up there, can I mount a Rotary Cheese Cannon in the left arm with three tons of ammo?"