Author Topic: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?  (Read 6884 times)

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #30 on: 06 July 2020, 11:45:38 »
Oh, now THERE is a twist . . . Jennifer Winson got so twisted from the Aramis coup and what followed that she was whispering in Nicky's ear about needing to break the wheel of history, to form something new for the ashes of the past rather than repeating the mistakes.  Forming the Clans were not his idea, but Jennifer Winson aka Amanda Cameron.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

HodgePodge

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #31 on: 06 July 2020, 13:23:21 »
It would also be amusing, in a more meta sense, for those (myself absolutely included) who grumbled upon our first introduction to the Clans, "What @#$%^!! fifteen year-old thought this up?"

Not one, necessarily. Maybe two? With a little brother's contribution on occasion?

Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3454
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #32 on: 06 July 2020, 14:12:16 »
Kerensky wanted to screw everyone over, and had zero loyalty to the Star League or the Terran Hegemony.

I don't think Kerensky was the good man he's painted as

Kerensky made the decision that was selfish

Nicholas wasn’t the only sociopath in the family

  Kerensky would never tolerate another threat to his power over the SLDF. He never accepted responsibility for the loonbar Richard's disastrous upbringing, and would never risk another authority over his where the SLDF was concerned -without his SLDF, he was nothing.

This is supposed to be a thread about Mandy Cameron, not Alex Kerensky.

We’ve hashed out the Alex-Kerensky-was-the-devil-incarnate argument in other dedicated threads like this one:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0

If folks want to hash out those arguments again, could they please go to that thread or start a separate one?

It’s frustrating to see every Star League thread devolve into a referendum on Alex K.  The Star League era was about more than that character.

Thanks.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Major Headcase

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 995
  • We're paid to win. Heroism costs extra...
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #33 on: 06 July 2020, 16:13:57 »
Simple reason no new Cameron: The initial vision of the Btech world needed the Mad Max endless war vibe. The 'Fall of Rome' was necessary for that to happen. Caesar's line must be ended for the Empire to be shattered. Outcome? The age of darkness = Succession Wars...
And then later, the Clans needed to happen. To "advance" the storyline and sell more books and toys. The Clans needed it's own Carausius, to lead them from the burning ruins.
The only reason she even possible existed was plot option. Always leave a story based "out". So that if a story arc is poorly received or rejected by the customer base, a new 'ah-ha!!' Plotline based on a lost scion to the throne can be trotted out to turn the narrative into Camelot instead.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2187
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #34 on: 06 July 2020, 18:02:31 »
This is supposed to be a thread about Mandy Cameron, not Alex Kerensky.

It’s frustrating to see every Star League thread devolve into a referendum on Alex K.  The Star League era was about more than that character.

  He was the only one with the power to be kingmaker, to recognize and enforce a new TH. The Camerons were nothing without the SLDF. Another pretender to the Cameron line without the SLDF would not even be noticed, even among the Houses. Their time ended with Richard the Mad, and even Kerensky wanted no part of it.

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3454
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #35 on: 06 July 2020, 18:21:36 »
  He was the only one with the power to be kingmaker, to recognize and enforce a new TH.

That’s not true.  Alex K. himself was alternately appointed to, and stripped of, titles and powers by the High Council.  And Alex K. begged the members of the High Council, collectively and individually, to name a new First Lord.  They refused.  Alex K. obviously never held the power to be a peaceful kingmaker.  In the context of the High Council dissolving itself and the Succession Wars that followed, it’s naive to argue that any single leader did.  Once Simon C. was dead, that was only going to happen through the collective action of the High Council.

Again, if we want to hold another referendum on Alex K., we should do it on another thread.  We should not pollute this and other Star League threads with same old false claims and arguments about Alex K.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2020, 18:25:58 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Major Headcase

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 995
  • We're paid to win. Heroism costs extra...
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #36 on: 06 July 2020, 18:59:44 »
I dont ascribe to the "evil Kerensky" idea myself, but his position and influence  IS relevant to the original posts question. Just because you dont agree with their argument doesn't mean it doesn't belong here.
Kerensky's motivation after the war and leading up to the Exodus really are central to the question, so whether you like people's opinions on it or not, they are still on-topic.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #37 on: 06 July 2020, 19:46:30 »
Simple reason no new Cameron: The initial vision of the Btech world needed the Mad Max endless war vibe. The 'Fall of Rome' was necessary for that to happen. Caesar's line must be ended for the Empire to be shattered. Outcome? The age of darkness = Succession Wars...
And then later, the Clans needed to happen. To "advance" the storyline and sell more books and toys. The Clans needed it's own Carausius, to lead them from the burning ruins.
The only reason she even possible existed was plot option. Always leave a story based "out". So that if a story arc is poorly received or rejected by the customer base, a new 'ah-ha!!' Plotline based on a lost scion to the throne can be trotted out to turn the narrative into Camelot instead.
Sometimes the Doylist answer is the easiest.

Oh, now THERE is a twist . . . Jennifer Winson got so twisted from the Aramis coup and what followed that she was whispering in Nicky's ear about needing to break the wheel of history, to form something new for the ashes of the past rather than repeating the mistakes.  Forming the Clans were not his idea, but Jennifer Winson aka Amanda Cameron.
On the other hand, Watsonian answers tend to be more fun. :-)

This is supposed to be a thread about Mandy Cameron, not Alex Kerensky.

We’ve hashed out the Alex-Kerensky-was-the-devil-incarnate argument in other dedicated threads like this one:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0

If folks want to hash out those arguments again, could they please go to that thread or start a separate one?

It’s frustrating to see every Star League thread devolve into a referendum on Alex K.  The Star League era was about more than that character.

Thanks.

Thanks for trying to keep us on track.  Oh, butterfly!
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2187
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #38 on: 06 July 2020, 20:04:15 »
That’s not true.  Alex K. himself was alternately appointed to, and stripped of, titles and powers by the High Council.  And Alex K. begged the members of the High Council, collectively and individually, to name a new First Lord.  They refused.  Alex K. obviously never held the power to be a peaceful kingmaker.  In the context of the High Council dissolving itself and the Succession Wars that followed, it’s naive to argue that any single leader did.  Once Simon C. was dead, that was only going to happen through the collective action of the High Council.

Again, if we want to hold another referendum on Alex K., we should do it on another thread.  We should not pollute this and other Star League threads with same old false claims and arguments about Alex K.
  The High Council may have had a say in the First Lord (debatable...) but the TH was a sovereign nation, no less than any of the Houses and the guy in charge of the SLDF, no matter what the High Council may say, was the de facto (in fact) head of the SLDF. That one individual had more than enough power to place ANYBODY on the throne of the Terran Hegemony he wanted but he had already written the TH off and was too busy looting it for people and supplies for his own kingdom, outside of the reach of the Houses.

  The OP asked WHY HAVE AN EXODUS...and I'd say, that even if Amaris tossed Richard the Mad into a cell and Richard Cameron was released, even the (unnamed) head of the SLDF would have known better than to allow another Cameron on the TH throne. The Exodus was inevitable, there was nobody strong enough to prevent it, as it all hinged on one person (who needn't be named...). Happy now?

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3454
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #39 on: 06 July 2020, 20:58:31 »
Kerensky's motivation after the war and leading up to the Exodus really are central to the question...

No issue.  But extreme and ridiculous arguments like “Kerensky wanted to screw everyone over” (from earlier in this thread) are clearly off-topic and should be moved to the existing threads for them. 

Folks are welcome to their opinions.  And I get that Alex K. is apparently polarizing in a very negative way for a few posters.  But every other thread on the Star League should not be derailed by the same extreme statements from the same couple posters about the figure of Alex K.  We have lots of other places on these boards for those arguments.

[Alex Kerensky] was too busy looting it [the Terran Hegemony] for people and supplies for his own kingdom...

This is another example.  Even if Alex K. had ordered SLDF troops to loot the Terran Hegemony — and there is no evidence in the canon that he did — that has zero to do with what impact the existence and knowledge of a surviving Cameron like Mandy would have had on the waning days of the Star League.

Again, folks are welcome to whatever opinions or fan fiction about Alex K. they have.  But this is not the place to bring that up.  These threads are:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68905.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45637.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=24074.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=172.msg1066#msg1066

Or folks can start a new thread on the evil of Alex K.

A sincere thanks in advance for keeping that topic in those threads instead of trolling it here and in other Star League threads.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2020, 21:39:44 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #40 on: 06 July 2020, 21:30:51 »
I will say I am of the mind the nature of Kerensky's motivations are very central to the issue being discussed here.

It informs a great deal about what his response would be.

If he was a selfish bastard who wanted his own kingdom it wouldn't matter if there was an heir.

If he was a loyal servant of the SLDF and TH that only made the choice he did because it seemed like the least worst option to him then he might stay and support a viable heir.

Where does he fall on that spectrum for me?  I am less inclined to think he was power hungry.  I think he used his cult of personality to take the SLDF so far out of the way that they would just rot away and die before the inevitable mutinies would gain enough traction to turn the fleet around to head back to the Inner Sphere.

He was certainly suffering from what we would call PTSD by the time he made his decision to Exodus.

If he wanted to set himself up as a leader of a nation he would have stayed.

So for my interpretation of Kerensky would he have stayed if there was a viable heir?

I think he would have for the simple reason of his cult of personality wasn't that great.

Major Headcase

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 995
  • We're paid to win. Heroism costs extra...
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #41 on: 06 July 2020, 22:30:08 »
So if someone has an opinion on something you don't agree with it's nonsense and trolling?? And yes, discussions about Kerensky belong EXACTLY here whether you agree with them or not. The question is "why have an Exodus at all??" And a person's answer based on their OPINION of Kerenskys motivation is a direct relationship to that question since KERENSKY instigated the Exodus. Just because you nor I happen to agree with those interpretation of Big Ks motivation doesn't discount the other posters perfectly valid right to answer the question based on his/her interpretation.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "fake news"....

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10498
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #42 on: 06 July 2020, 23:00:17 »
in-universe, the OP's question is a political question, and most of it hinges on the politics of Aleksandr Kerensky and the SLDF.  When you look at his political actions before, during, and after the Amaris Civil War,  that's got bearing on his decision making process, and influences his most probable acts, which in turn influences the answer wrt Amanda Cameron.

Stated Intent vs. Actual Outcome needs to be acknowledged if you're going to look at potential outcomes-it's like any other alternate history speculation out there.  For over a decade, Kerensky's stated intent was to restore the lawful authority in the Star League and Terran Hegemony.  his justification for Exodus was a vacuum of that authority (Lack of viable heirs.)

presenting a viable heir, even one that isn't the best candidate, invalidates the bulk of his actions post-2784 with regards to justifying his call to exodus as being in any way lawful or defensible on a moral, ethical, professional, or political scale.

Given his documented behaviours post-Exodus, the man was at best narcissistic.  (Oddly enough explaining his utter failure with Richard) and at worst, sociopathic megalomaniac (though capable of recognizing relative amounts of force.  Unstable does not always equate to stupid.)

The point being, Kerensky would never have tolerated a successful discovery of a live Cameron Heir being noticed, not after he had already been turned down by the SL Council for a second Regency and Protectorship.  (this is also documented.)  Effectively, whether you like it or not, Kerensky chose Exodus when he was refused the power to be effectively the King in all but name.

extrapolating from his behaviours during and after Exodus, a live Amanda  Cameron would be dead before dawn as a threat to his power.

Other views might have other interpretations, but those interpretations ignore the phenomena that the simple answer, even when it countermands the rhetoric, is usually the right answer.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #43 on: 06 July 2020, 23:06:39 »
Part of the problem is your interpretation does not match the best look we get at Kerensky . . . which is unfortunately 40-some years before Aramis.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10498
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #44 on: 06 July 2020, 23:12:58 »
Part of the problem is your interpretation does not match the best look we get at Kerensky . . . which is unfortunately 40-some years before Aramis.

Nobody Believes they are a villain.  (Well, except maybe serial klllers in television cop-dramas).  when judging the motives it is crucial to examine the actions because in the end, it's the actions that inform on someone's actual motivations and actual suite of behaviors. Kerensky's actual actions don't suggest what his rhetoric insists-they're really very counter to it.

a practical examination of his actions, and motivations suggests he's pretty good at lying to himself to do what he wants while still feeling moral and 'forced'.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3454
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #45 on: 06 July 2020, 23:13:30 »
And yes, discussions about Kerensky belong EXACTLY here whether you agree with them or not.

Those that relate to Mandy C do.

Those that relate to whether Alex K was out to “screw everyone” or had “zero loyalty” or was a “selfish sociopath” or was “looting” the TH do not.  Those statements are about starting another referendum on “evil” Alex K, which is not the purpose of this thread.  We’ve had those referendums on “evil” Alex K in the past, and they’ve seriously derailed Star League threads that had little to do with Alex K, “evil” or otherwise.

To deal with this issue, we’ve created threads specifically on “evil” Alex K.  I’ve linked to several.  Folks should move these debates there or start new threads on “evil” Alex K.

Happy to engage there again on the topic of “evil” Alex K.  Just not here or in other threads on other Star League topics.

Nobody Believes they are a villain.  (Well, except maybe serial klllers in television cop-dramas).  when judging the motives it is crucial to examine the actions because in the end, it's the actions that inform on someone's actual motivations and actual suite of behaviors. Kerensky's actual actions don't suggest what his rhetoric insists-they're really very counter to it.

a practical examination of his actions, and motivations suggests he's pretty good at lying to himself to do what he wants while still feeling moral and 'forced'.

This is another prime example of a completely off-topic post on “evil” Alex K.  The entire post is an argument for why Alex K should be viewed as a “villain”.  There is nothing in the post about Mandy C or any related Star League topic.  These and other “evil” Alex K posts belong in threads dedicated to that (apparently eternal) argument.  They do not belong here or in other Star League threads.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2020, 23:30:08 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Major Headcase

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 995
  • We're paid to win. Heroism costs extra...
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #46 on: 06 July 2020, 23:38:55 »
Part of the problem is your interpretation does not match the best look we get at Kerensky . . . which is unfortunately 40-some years before Aramis.

This is very relevant right here! ^^
I dont ascribe to the "evil genius" theory myself, but Kerensky's exodus does seem at real odds with his do-or-die sense of loyalty and duty to the SL, I  mean look at EVERYTHING he went through and never lost his way?!?
And for me, THAT'S the answer right there...
After all those years of war and sacrifice and devotion, only to have all hope of the survival of the SL smashed by the Cameron's extinction and the unmasked perfidy of the House Lords, Kerensky's was simply tired. The only thing he cared for anymore, now he knew beyond a doubt the SL was dead, were his soldiers. Men and women who fought and died with him for years.  His powerful sense of duty transferred entirely  to them. He wasn't an idiot, he knew he could have ridden his army to the throne on Terra, but that would STILL spell the end of the League as he knew it, and his reign would be built on the bodies of his loyal sons and daughters. I think at a certain  point he simply gave up the IS to the corrupt and power hungry and washed his hands of the whole thing and focused on saving his soldiers from an eternity  of war.
I dont even believe  he ever intended to come back in the foreseeable future, but he told his men they intended to return to "save" the inner sphere just to convince them to go in the first place, when his real purpose was just to get them out before it was too late.
And for me, this answers the OPs question as well. If Kerensky had known of a Cameron survivor, he never would have left. He would have become the Bulldog of Earth, terrorizing the ambitious House Lords, and holding the SL together long enough for her to take power. My reasoning- One: his ingrained sense of duty wouldn't let him choose otherwise. And Two: a surviving Cameron would be physical proof that all those years of war and loss and death weren't in vain! That all those people died for a reason. His already prodigious sense of devotion would focus laser sharp on that girl and God help any puffed up House Lord even THINKING of being the next Amaris!! So for me, Kerensky could not have known, and this means most likely there was no surviving Cameron...  xp
That's my view at least.  :thumbsup:

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3454
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #47 on: 06 July 2020, 23:48:01 »
Why wouldn't Kerensky play that card if he had it?

Timing is everything.

If Mandy C’s heritage is confirmed too late in the game — after it’s apparent that the House Lords are individually out for the First Lordship themselves come hell or high water — there’s little point in revealing her existence.  She just becomes another (maybe assassinated) speed bump on their march to war.

If Mandy’s C’s heritage becomes known to the right people early enough, her existence could have a huge impact.  With a live Cameron before or shortly after the SLDF retakes Terra, there is a much more clear path to restoring the Terran Hegemony government and a much less clear path for the House Lords to make claims on the First Lordship, TH worlds, or SLDF units.

And personalities are everything.

If Mandy C is another spoiled brat in the mode of Richard C, no one is going to give her a chance, regardless of their intentions.

If Mandy C is mature and wise beyond her years, the most grasping and jaded of the House Lords will still try to dismiss her but others in power will not.

Short answer is that we don’t know unless we pin down some of these variables.  Otherwise, she’s a blank stack of paper on which many different alternate histories can be written.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 00:08:51 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Giovanni Blasini

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7164
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #48 on: 06 July 2020, 23:53:43 »
I get the impression she'd be more the shell-shocked war vet with the thousand yard stare.
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2187
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #49 on: 07 July 2020, 01:39:34 »
If Mandy C is mature and wise beyond her years, the most grasping and jaded of the House Lords will still try to dismiss her but others in power will not.
  What "OTHERS IN POWER"? There is only one "other" with any power to do anything, outside of the Houses and you refuse to recognize that pachyderm in the room...that had already decided to leave the room (Exodus), no matter what.

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #50 on: 07 July 2020, 08:00:10 »
  What "OTHERS IN POWER"? There is only one "other" with any power to do anything, outside of the Houses and you refuse to recognize that pachyderm in the room...that had already decided to leave the room (Exodus), no matter what.

On the other hand, YOU - among others - have already decided to ignore that pachyderm in our room here: A major factor in Kerensky deciding to stage the exodus was that there was no Cameron available to run the Hegemony.

And, in case you missed it, that would not be the case if Amanda was still alive.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #51 on: 07 July 2020, 08:06:55 »
My take: Kerensky is neither a madman nor a narcissistic sociopath nor the utter archvillain to contrast with Amaris the Misunderstood Idealist.

Kerensky is a career officer who is loyal to House Cameron. He is, however, seriously out of his depth in a lot of things not pertaining to the job of being a military officer - the most important of these being "politics" and "raising a child", and especially the combination "raising a child to be fit for a life in politics", which is what he would have had to do with Richard.

He chose the Exodus because there was no House Cameron any more for him to be loyal to, and because he knew he lacked the skills to prevent what was coming. He believed that all he and the rest of the SLDF could have done was to make things even worse - whether or not that was correct is another question.

With a living Amanda, one of the two reasons for the Exodus no longer exists - which should be enough for him to stay and protect House Cameron.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10498
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #52 on: 07 July 2020, 08:23:29 »
My take: Kerensky is neither a madman nor a narcissistic sociopath nor the utter archvillain to contrast with Amaris the Misunderstood Idealist.

Kerensky is a career officer who is loyal to House Cameron. He is, however, seriously out of his depth in a lot of things not pertaining to the job of being a military officer - the most important of these being "politics" and "raising a child", and especially the combination "raising a child to be fit for a life in politics", which is what he would have had to do with Richard.

He chose the Exodus because there was no House Cameron any more for him to be loyal to, and because he knew he lacked the skills to prevent what was coming. He believed that all he and the rest of the SLDF could have done was to make things even worse - whether or not that was correct is another question.

With a living Amanda, one of the two reasons for the Exodus no longer exists - which should be enough for him to stay and protect House Cameron.

Narcissist fits very well with "The Voice of Kerensky", as well as trying to set himself up as a king in the deep periphery, neither of those actions is consistent with a loyal, professional soldier.

I think it's arguable whether or not he would have stayed if presented with a Cameron heir.  The more positive interpretations probably would have, but...

I kind of suspect he finished the war with the expectation of another try at "Lord Protector" and was denied, and that set him to leaving hell-or-high-water, and so, I doubt a live Cameron would have been much of an obstacle to him leaving provided said live cameron could be made into a dead cameron without much fuss.

Why am I insisting on this? this argument is pointless.  Here's why:

A professional Soldier would not abandon their nation.  Aleksandr Kerensky was a Terran Hegemony citizen, the bulk of his units were Terran units.  In the Four years after beating Amaris into paste and exactingly killing every amaris he could find including infants, he made zero effort to restore civil government to the Terran Hegemony, nor did he make any effort to restore civil administration or internal infrastructure.  Instead, he put those resources into Exodus and preparations for Exodus.

ACTIONS speak louder than all the words.  Once denied the seat as 'first lord in all but name' he put his energies into making sure the Terran Hegemony would be easily taken out and unable to remain intact as a state.  The presence of an Amanda Cameron would be an obstacle to that, and he'd take actions to remove the obstacle.

This even caught the other five Great Houses by surprise, because the Rational and professional course of action would have been to restore domestic order and rebuild, but he elected not to do that.

My argument is simply that with Amanda Cameron alive, Kerensky would still have elected not to do that, and she wouldn't be alive for very long unless her being alive was very public.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 08:31:36 by Cannonshop »
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9597
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #53 on: 07 July 2020, 08:34:10 »
I find it somewhat bizarre that people keep arguing that the SL could have kept going forever when Fasa created it to fail and fall like the Roman Empire. House Cameron wasn't the Federation of Planets.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10498
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #54 on: 07 July 2020, 08:48:50 »
I find it somewhat bizarre that people keep arguing that the SL could have kept going forever when Fasa created it to fail and fall like the Roman Empire. House Cameron wasn't the Federation of Planets.

Oh, it was GOING to fall, but that's 'out of universe', a bit like applying in-game versus out of game knowledge-you might out of game know that the 'good king's' vizier is a level 20 demogorgon from hell wearing a polymorph spell and using an artifact to cloak his alignment, but that doesn't mean your Paladin who just rolled a '1' on his sense-motive is going to be able to tell and therefore has a rational in-game reason to stab the bastard.

The in-universe logic shows Kerensky was...well, not as advertised, not when you apply the rule of natural consequences or assume a professional military background in-setting.  But out of universe, of course, he was a sainted idealist.  not because anything he did reflects that, but because that is what's on his character sheet when you look on the other side of the DM screen.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9597
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #55 on: 07 July 2020, 08:53:30 »
Im sorry but it's a fictional universe, what could have happened is also called fan fiction.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #56 on: 07 July 2020, 09:15:52 »
My take: Kerensky is neither a madman nor a narcissistic sociopath nor the utter archvillain to contrast with Amaris the Misunderstood Idealist.

Kerensky is a career officer who is loyal to House Cameron. He is, however, seriously out of his depth in a lot of things not pertaining to the job of being a military officer - the most important of these being "politics" and "raising a child", and especially the combination "raising a child to be fit for a life in politics", which is what he would have had to do with Richard.

He chose the Exodus because there was no House Cameron any more for him to be loyal to, and because he knew he lacked the skills to prevent what was coming. He believed that all he and the rest of the SLDF could have done was to make things even worse - whether or not that was correct is another question.

With a living Amanda, one of the two reasons for the Exodus no longer exists - which should be enough for him to stay and protect House Cameron.

You do not become a general, and especially a general at that level without the ability to play politics.  Hell, really you cannot rise out of the mid-ranks, enlisted or officer, in peacetime without playing the political game.  Gets into written and unwritten rules of rank- FREX officers and enlisted of a certain rank (quite low actually) are expected to buy tickets to Blah-Blah charity ball and put in a long appearance.  Your spouse will be involved in the Family Support Group (or whatever the Star League equivalent would be) so they can help demonstrate your family's commitment to the unit/service.  I had a friend who ended up with a condition after one tour in Iraq- stress triggered a genetic problem he never knew about- who came home later b/c he spent a month or so in Germany medevac'd at the end of the tour.  His condition is diagnosed and well understood, the unit says he cannot go to the school required for the next promotion . . . but hey, we have another deployment coming up and while you are medically disqualified you can get around it if you sign this waiver.  The unit would not let him go to the school but wanted him to sign a medical waiver to go back to a combat zone because of politics.  He laughed, and changed his plan from putting in 20 to getting out.  Funny thing, his civvie job had him move to another state, his local unit was not as deployable and suddenly he could go to the school . . . plans changed again, put in the remaining 10 for retirement.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10498
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #57 on: 07 July 2020, 09:22:15 »
Im sorry but it's a fictional universe, what could have happened is also called fan fiction.

exactly that, SteelRaven.  you nailed it exactly.  Every 'alternate' not turned out by the copyright owner/writer is, essentially, fan-fiction.  Even the stuff that deconstructs things.

the really AGGRAVATING deconstructions (suggesting Kerensky was a lunatic, or a sinister, or incompetent) come from loving the original enough to see the flaws and riff on them, like any GOOD deconstructions.  You can't know enough to have questions about Kerensky fi you didn't love the original material enough to engage with it on more than the most surface level.

it's like those people who spent hundreds of hours trying to work out how Fasanomics could ever work with real people and real economies.  If they didn't LIKE it on a core level, they wouldn't bother.  WE wouldn't bother.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #58 on: 07 July 2020, 09:58:23 »
Narcissist fits very well with "The Voice of Kerensky", as well as trying to set himself up as a king in the deep periphery, neither of those actions is consistent with a loyal, professional soldier.

I think it's arguable whether or not he would have stayed if presented with a Cameron heir.  The more positive interpretations probably would have, but...

I kind of suspect he finished the war with the expectation of another try at "Lord Protector" and was denied, and that set him to leaving hell-or-high-water, and so, I doubt a live Cameron would have been much of an obstacle to him leaving provided said live cameron could be made into a dead cameron without much fuss.

Why am I insisting on this? this argument is pointless.  Here's why:

A professional Soldier would not abandon their nation.  Aleksandr Kerensky was a Terran Hegemony citizen, the bulk of his units were Terran units.  In the Four years after beating Amaris into paste and exactingly killing every amaris he could find including infants, he made zero effort to restore civil government to the Terran Hegemony, nor did he make any effort to restore civil administration or internal infrastructure.  Instead, he put those resources into Exodus and preparations for Exodus.

ACTIONS speak louder than all the words.  Once denied the seat as 'first lord in all but name' he put his energies into making sure the Terran Hegemony would be easily taken out and unable to remain intact as a state.  The presence of an Amanda Cameron would be an obstacle to that, and he'd take actions to remove the obstacle.

This even caught the other five Great Houses by surprise, because the Rational and professional course of action would have been to restore domestic order and rebuild, but he elected not to do that.

My argument is simply that with Amanda Cameron alive, Kerensky would still have elected not to do that, and she wouldn't be alive for very long unless her being alive was very public.

You did read the entirety of my post, I assume? Not just the parts you decided you can dismiss?

Your argument, you say, is that a central factor in Kerensky´s decision-making process - the existence of a House Cameron for him to be loyal to - he would have made the exact same decisions, because obviously his loyalty to House Cameron would mean he would murder the last member of House Cameron... yeah, right. You´re not making a reasoned argument here, you´re just doubling down on your pet belief that Kerensky is evil incarnate.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Why have an exodus if Amanda Cameron was alive?
« Reply #59 on: 07 July 2020, 10:01:39 »
You do not become a general, and especially a general at that level without the ability to play politics.  Hell, really you cannot rise out of the mid-ranks, enlisted or officer, in peacetime without playing the political game.  Gets into written and unwritten rules of rank- FREX officers and enlisted of a certain rank (quite low actually) are expected to buy tickets to Blah-Blah charity ball and put in a long appearance.  Your spouse will be involved in the Family Support Group (or whatever the Star League equivalent would be) so they can help demonstrate your family's commitment to the unit/service.  I had a friend who ended up with a condition after one tour in Iraq- stress triggered a genetic problem he never knew about- who came home later b/c he spent a month or so in Germany medevac'd at the end of the tour.  His condition is diagnosed and well understood, the unit says he cannot go to the school required for the next promotion . . . but hey, we have another deployment coming up and while you are medically disqualified you can get around it if you sign this waiver.  The unit would not let him go to the school but wanted him to sign a medical waiver to go back to a combat zone because of politics.  He laughed, and changed his plan from putting in 20 to getting out.  Funny thing, his civvie job had him move to another state, his local unit was not as deployable and suddenly he could go to the school . . . plans changed again, put in the remaining 10 for retirement.

None of that is in any way equivalent with having to go toe to toe with the house lords in the Star League Council.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

 

Register