Kampfgruppe Steiner Operation: Götterdämmerung or how we survived the Dark Age.

[JadedFalcon]

As far as eras go, I've mostly used Lyrans in the early Clan Invasion and Late Succession Wars. Been tempted to do something for the Jihad or Dark Age eras. Waiting to see if any DA Lyran mechs make it onto the release list for Ironwinds this year.

For units, I've always been fond of the Skye Rangers. Was kinda sad to see them absorbed into the RAF.

[Col.Hengist]

Banshees for some speed

[Flieger]

For units, I've always been fond of the Skye Rangers. Was kinda sad to see them absorbed into the RAF.

Agreed. Interestingly, the Skye Jäger remained part of the LCAF only to have their loyalty questioned and being disbanded. Too bad, they were my favourite Jäger, although the Coventry Jäger with their bravado and fury (misguided as it may have been) impressed me, too.

[False Son]

For units, I've always been fond of the Skye Rangers. Was kinda sad to see them absorbed into the RAF.

I want to believe it was residual resentment towards the Alliance for putting down the Skye rebellions, but chances are they were absorbed for the same reason everyone else was absorbed.  The rank and file troops had no choice.  The Kelswa-Steiners were thrilled by joining the Republic and likely helped the process along.

[JadedFalcon]

Good point about the decades of unrest in the region. I'm sure the Kelswa-Steiners got a good deal out of it, getting their own Prefecture to rule along with protection from Stone's forces. The grass looking greener helped justify it as closer to choosing their own path than being told what to do by Tharkad. Even if Skye had stuck with the Lyrans, it's unlikely they would have seen any provincial regiments rebuilt or reformed by the LAAF.

Still gonna miss the Skye Rangers in future settings. I always liked their tenacity and conflicted loyalties.

I like the ease of consideration of the 3rd/4th Succession War, though for some real battles nothing says Hello Tharkad like the Clan invasion.  That said, I'm liking the 15th Regulars even more, after reading up on their amusing acquisition in FM 3145.  I think I'll roll with the AHRG as my own pet company...now to decide what to fit them out with.  A KGC-0000 of course, just because I love King Crabs, but what else to roll with?

A mock-up of Frederick Steiner's Atlas might be appropriate for a museum piece. The Zeus, Hatchetman, and Commando aren't bad choices either. When the new classics becomes available, a mock-up of Angela Franks' Battlemaster would be another option.

[ANS Kamas P81]

A mock-up of Frederick Steiner's Atlas might be appropriate for a museum piece. The Zeus, Hatchetman, and Commando aren't bad choices either. When the new classics becomes available, a mock-up of Angela Franks' Battlemaster would be another option.

Those three True Lyran designs, definitely.  A blue Warhammer as well, to shoutout to Katrina Steiner.  I was half thinking of an Orion and Dragon as well, just to have an opfor to "reenact" against.  Shame they don't have a Clan 'mech to reenact against. :))

And then of course modifying them with salvage as I go, because that's just fun!  Though honestly they'll probably all get horribly destroyed...

[skumm]

#STEINER

[Col.Hengist]

And Skumm shows up give us the # ! Lol yes #STEINER!!!

[Col.Hengist]

OK. Looking at the entry in the DI Morgan. Looks like it doesn't say a whole lot about Grave Mold. Cool tactics though

[JadedFalcon]

Those three True Lyran designs, definitely.  A blue Warhammer as well, to shoutout to Katrina Steiner.  I was half thinking of an Orion and Dragon as well, just to have an opfor to "reenact" against.  Shame they don't have a Clan 'mech to reenact against. :))

And then of course modifying them with salvage as I go, because that's just fun!  Though honestly they'll probably all get horribly destroyed...

The OpFor mechs are a good idea. If you don't mind Greenburging it, you can bolt some fake arms on a Catapult and paint it in Falcon colors.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Or fake missile boxes on a marauder, but the catapult DOES look closer overall.

Okay, so King Crab, Atlas, Warhammer, Zeus, Orion, Catapult, Dragon, Hatchetman, Commando.  That leaves 3; I'll claim a Griffin for Steiner loyalty, an Archer for 'everyone has an Archer,' aaaand...a Hunchback perhaps.  That makes an interesting batch of lances; KC, Atlas, HCT, and HBK in a close-attack lance, WHM, Zeus, Orion, and Archer as a fire lance, Catapult, Commando, Dragon, and Griffin for a 'mobile' lance - they either jump or go 5/8.  Or swap the Orion and Catapult...

[False Son]

I'm sure the Kelswa-Steiners got a good deal out of it, getting their own Prefecture to rule along with protection from Stone's forces. The grass looking greener helped justify it as closer to choosing their own path than being told what to do by Tharkad. Even if Skye had stuck with the Lyrans, it's unlikely they would have seen any provincial regiments rebuilt or reformed by the LAAF.

This tension plays out in the Dark Age in a comical way.  Prior to the Jade Falcon Desant there are protests and counter protests between pro-Republic and pro-Lyran groups on Skye, with a tiny minority advocating independence.  That struck me as sort of funny, because the historical desire for independence was always anti-Lyran.  The Republic had either subverted the anti-Lyran sentiment, or the Lyrans were taking the independence movement for their own purposes.  At any rate, the image of a lone protester with a sign saying "Why not independence?" makes me chuckle.

But, the tenacity of Skye's population is still impressive.  Tara Campbell led an ad hoc cannon fodder group against the Jade Falcons that included among other things, an ice cream truck. 

[JadedFalcon]

But, the tenacity of Skye's population is still impressive.  Tara Campbell led an ad hoc cannon fodder group against the Jade Falcons that included among other things, an ice cream truck. 

Please tell me the ice cream truck was playing "Don't Fear The Reaper."

Perhaps the attitude in Skye is more reactionary than independent? So years of Republic rule gave the citizenry something new to complain about? I'm also not sure how popular switching to the Republic was with the average person.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Please tell me the ice cream truck was playing "Don't Fear The Reaper."

Against the Falcons it should have been playing "Turkey In The Straw."

[False Son]

Please tell me the ice cream truck was playing "Don't Fear The Reaper."

There's a Biting Elbows song i'd like to suggest, but the word filter would shush me.

Perhaps the attitude in Skye is more reactionary than independent? So years of Republic rule gave the citizenry something new to complain about? I'm also not sure how popular switching to the Republic was with the average person.

It is a little more complicated than how is the public mood.  One thing they make clear in the MWDA books is that the crowds are being manipulated by powerful media mogels who are taking their lead in turn from the Commonwealth.  Prior to joining the Republic it was Ryan Steiner and Aldo Lestrade agitating for independence, along with Robert Kelswa-Steiner later.

Beyond that is the bad history between the Commonwealth and Syke.  Going all the way back to Robert Marsden the Commonwealth has put down Skye with military force.  The LIC watches the public for agitators and Loki terrorizes the people.  It isn't hard to understand why there would be underlying discontent.  The Republic on the other hand is at least an unknown future.  For the people that went over to the Republic the memory of the LCAF/LAAF violently putting down their independence movements was still fresh in their minds. 

[Col.Hengist]

Ryan Steiner and Aldo stirring up trouble was, what 140 years prior to the current timeline? I don't think it was fresh in their minds.

 The Robert Kelswa-Steiner times, for sure though. Jealous baby that he was.

[False Son]

Ryan Steiner and Aldo stirring up trouble was, what 140 years prior to the current timeline? I don't think it was fresh in their minds.

Unless that chapter of history was entirely forgotten the narrative remains that the Archon has held power over Skye by use of force.  Robert Marsden, the first Archon Basileus put down Skye and set a trend that continued into the present day.  The Commonwealth was willing to acknowledge the Rasalhague independence movement as a strategic move to undermine the Draconis Combine (which of course backfired once Theodore recognized it for his own gain) but they weren't willing to acknowledge Skye independence.  Hanse Davion's use of troops in the first Skye rebellion didn't help, either.  It reinforced the narrative that no matter how much people on Skye want independence, even when they are willing to demonstrate it through rebellion, Robert Marsden's descendants will come down on them the same way he had come down on them before.  The fundamental nature of the Tharkad-Skye relationship is one built on armed coercion.

The Robert Kelswa-Steiner times, for sure though. Jealous baby that he was.

Robert fascinated me to some extent.  His enthusiasm for joining the Republic is at odds with historical independence movements.  More likely he realized full independence was impossible as long as Tharkad was still in charge.  Better to get some measure of say in a new system than one that has a proven track record of violence against you.

Sentimentalism is a powerful force, too.  Prior to the Falcon Desant landing the pro-Lyran media was trading on "good ole days" ideas and trying to paint the Commonwealth as being more competant than the Republic.  Of course, that's debatable.  Both nations fell apart, and it would be fun to debate who fell further.  The RAF was largely responsible for turning back the Falcons the first time and received few reinforcements.  Meanwhile, the Lyrans brought in the full Stormhammers and a warship, but still lost to Malvina Hazen when she returned.

[Flieger]

The relationship between Skye and the Commonwealth is a little more complicated than Tharkad being an evil oppressor and Syke being the hapless oppressed. Rasalhague offers a good comparison as its people were eager to fight for the Lyrans against the Combine, and generally preferred Lyran rule if there had to be a foreign ruler. (Of course, they vastly preferred independence to both, Lyrans and Dracs).
The people of Skye would have never dreamed of fighting for the Combine against the Lyrans; in fact when not rebelling the Skye Brigade was considered a powerful force until Katherine Davion dissolved the 10th and turned the remaining Rangers into sink units. That is pretty much why the LCAF maintained the brigade: they knew, if push came to shove the Skye Rangers would fight alongside them against the foreign invaders, resulting in a proud LCAF service history.

To me it is not surprising that the 4th Skye Rangers and other Skye soldiers not only turned their backs to the Republic, but embraced their Lyran heritage. It seems Skye is slowly taking the Rasalhague stance: if there has to be an oppressor, he'd better be a Lyran.

[False Son]

The relationship between Skye and the Commonwealth is a little more complicated than Tharkad being an evil oppressor and Syke being the hapless oppressed. Rasalhague offers a good comparison as its people were eager to fight for the Lyrans against the Combine, and generally preferred Lyran rule if there had to be a foreign ruler. (Of course, they vastly preferred independence to both, Lyrans and Dracs).

This isn't a straight up comparison.  The fundamental difference in their independence movements was their value to Tharkad.  Skye wanted general independence, both from the Combine and Commonwealth.  That's why they had to be squashed.  The Rasalhagian independence movement would rob the Dragon of worlds, whereas the Skye independence movement only hurt the Commonwealth.  Recognizing Rasalhagian independence wasn't done out of some altruistic recognition of self determination.  If it was, the exact same argument would apply to Skye being able to break way.  Tharkad promoting Rasalhagian independence was just a cynical ploy to undermine the Dragon.

The people of Skye would have never dreamed of fighting for the Combine against the Lyrans; in fact when not rebelling the Skye Brigade was considered a powerful force until Katherine Davion dissolved the 10th and turned the remaining Rangers into sink units. That is pretty much why the LCAF maintained the brigade: they knew, if push came to shove the Skye Rangers would fight alongside them against the foreign invaders, resulting in a proud LCAF service history.

Again, not the same thing.  The Draconis portion of the Rasalhague Republic was under Combine control for generations.  The people of Skye had a die hard resistance against the Dragon most notably demonstrated in nuking their own planet to keep the Dracs away.  A free Skye would be inclined to defend itself against the Dragon.  But, it wouldn't take worlds away from the Dragon and couldn't be commanded to fight on behalf of the Commonwealth when needed, and therefor was of no value to Tharkad.

[Col.Hengist]

A free Skye would do nothing but give more planets to DC and FWL. We would be in worse shape than we are now.

 Then, once they were under attack from those two sides they would be calling for help. We would possibly not be in a position to do that. So it would take a lot of manpower and resources to regain the losses.

 No, better to put down a rebellion before that happens. That's long sighted. The Skye separatists are very short sighted.

[False Son]

A free Skye would do nothing but give more planets to DC and FWL. We would be in worse shape than we are now.

 Then, once they were under attack from those two sides they would be calling for help. We would possibly not be in a position to do that. So it would take a lot of manpower and resources to regain the losses.

First, I think that is debatable.  The Anduriens proved that independence does not automatically mean your traditional enemies are going to swallow you up. 

And who knows what Skye could do with their tax Kroners going into domestic production instead of contracts going to Coventry, Loxley and such.  If Free Skye had taken Hesperus II as planned imagine the output of that world not being divided among the Commonwealth and mercenary markets and instead feeding the Skye Rangers.

No, better to put down a rebellion before that happens. That's long sighted. The Skye separatists are very short sighted.

I get it from the perspective of the rest of the Commonwealth.  But, to the people of Skye it is up to them to decide.  Does the rest of the Commonwealth have the right to force Skye to remain part of the Commonwealth for the sake of the rest of the Commonwealth?  Maybe.  But since guns are more persuasive than moral arguments it doesn't really matter.  Off with their heads.

[Flieger]

Of course the Rasalhague independence was not supported for purely altruistic reasons. I think that goes without saying in the BTU. So let us not waste time with such strawmen.  ::)
My point is that Rasalhague was more than willing to side with a foreign power to overthrow their oppressors, even enlisting in the LCAF. Skye on the other hand was never willing to side with the Dracs or the League, and they have a proud history in fighting off these powers as loyal part of the LCAF. They knew Steiner was still a better option than any other house.
Up until the Republic came, Skye has always had the attitude that Lyran rule, while worse than independence, was better than any other rule. However, over time the experience with the Republic and the pro-Lyran movement seems to reaffirm the old attitude: if there has to be an oppressor, it should be a Lyran oppressor.

[False Son]

Of course the Rasalhague independence was not supported for purely altruistic reasons. I think that goes without saying in the BTU. So let us not waste time with such strawmen.  ::)

It isn't strawman.  To the people of Skye this meant everything.  Why the Rasalhagians and not Skye?  Was Tharkad forthcoming about how Rasalhague was just being used to combat the Dragon?  Nope.  People on Skye took up arms to fight their fellow countrymen because independence recognition mattered to them.  Our out of character perspective on how self determination is a disregarded concept in BT doesn't matter in character to the people who are demanding independence.

My point is that Rasalhague was more than willing to side with a foreign power to overthrow their oppressors, even enlisting in the LCAF. Skye on the other hand was never willing to side with the Dracs or the League, and they have a proud history in fighting off these powers as loyal part of the LCAF. They knew Steiner was still a better option than any other house.

The Rasalhague population was also divided among the Commonwealth and Combine.  Any argument made about how some Rasalhagians joined the LCAF can be countered by saying some Rasalhagians joined the DCMS.  The Lyrans liked to believe the oppression narrative, but were surprised to find it wasn't that simple once Rasalhague got independence.

Up until the Republic came, Skye has always had the attitude that Lyran rule, while worse than independence, was better than any other rule. However, over time the experience with the Republic and the pro-Lyran movement seems to reaffirm the old attitude: if there has to be an oppressor, it should be a Lyran oppressor.

You know that the pro-Lyran attitude was artificially inflated by Tharkad, right?  The Commonwealth had thrown resources into the pro-Lyran camp for years and even sent Loki agents to work with Jasek Kelswa-Steiner's Stormhammers.  There were also rumors of some pro-Lyran demonstrators being stand ins manipulated to look like pro-Lyran sentiment was stronger than it really was.  Say what you will about the Free Skye movements manipulations by Ryan Steiner and Aldo Lestrade, at least the people of Skye did their own fighting instead of bringing in foreigners to prop up their breakaway bid.

[Flieger]

The point is the comparison to Skye, highlighting the differences: The Rasalhague Regulars were staunchly loyal to the Dragon and against the independence of Rasalhague. The Skye Rangers were loyal to Tharkad as long as they fought against foreign powers, but they were also pro-Free Skye. That is an all important difference, as the loyalties of Skye's soldiers were not black-and-white, and could well include the Lyrans. Furthermore, people from Skye would not have dreamed of fighting for the Dragon to defeat the Lyrans, people from Rasalhague were more than ready to fight for the Lyrans to defeat the Dragon. That, too, is an all important difference.

I do not think the proud history in service of the Lyrans has been forgotten, nor that only the evil machinations of manipulative, LIC sponsored magnates brainwashed otherwise Republic-loving Skye cititzens. That seems more like a Republic propaganda narrative...

[Col.Hengist]

First, I think that is debatable.  The Anduriens proved that independence does not automatically mean your traditional enemies are going to swallow you up. 

And who knows what Skye could do with their tax Kroners going into domestic production instead of contracts going to Coventry, Loxley and such.  If Free Skye had taken Hesperus II as planned imagine the output of that world not being divided among the Commonwealth and mercenary markets and instead feeding the Skye Rangers.

I get it from the perspective of the rest of the Commonwealth.  But, to the people of Skye it is up to them to decide.  Does the rest of the Commonwealth have the right to force Skye to remain part of the Commonwealth for the sake of the rest of the Commonwealth?  Maybe.  But since guns are more persuasive than moral arguments it doesn't really matter.  Off with their heads.

As I'm usually heard to say at SCA events... HEADS ON SPIKES!!!

[False Son]

Furthermore, people from Skye would not have dreamed of fighting for the Dragon to defeat the Lyrans, people from Rasalhague were more than ready to fight for the Lyrans to defeat the Dragon. That, too, is an all important difference.

That is because the Dragon never made the same sort of manipulative ploy the Lyrans did in order to undermine the Combine.  The Dragon was always very forthright about wanting to take over Skye.  The Commonwealth was fine holding onto the worlds taken for 4 years after the 4th Succession War ended.  It wasn't until Theordore recognized the FRR that the Commonwealth gave the worlds over.

I do not think the proud history in service of the Lyrans has been forgotten, nor that only the evil machinations of manipulative, LIC sponsored magnates brainwashed otherwise Republic-loving Skye cititzens. That seems more like a Republic propaganda narrative...

Skye's loyalties were always divided.  There were always people from Skye Province who were perfectly loyal to the Commonwealth.  There were also those that were loyal to Skye first and only.  Those people, the Skye separatists never got a fair shake because regardless of the actual majority loyalty of the Skye population, the FedCom put down the Free Skye movement with force of arms.  So, while I don't think there is anything absolutely compelling about the future of a free Skye, it should be up to the people of Skye to decide, not Tharkad or New Avalon.  Then again, if that was true the entire Tyr movement would have never gotten off the ground. 

There was evidence that Tharkad was meddling in Skye again in the Dark Age.  The LIC had assisted Jasek with Towne and helped to form a regiment of his Stormhammers.  But, the whole thing was put aside for a minute in order to try and stop Malvina Hazen. 

[Flieger]

I would not call the loyalties of Skye divided, at least not in the sense that some were loyalists and some were secessionists. It is more like the majority had a dual loyalty, to Skye first and the Commonwealth second. Like the dual vassalage in the later Middle Ages, this kind of double allegiance could lead to trouble, and it did during the Skye Rebellions. But Tharkard was smart enough recognizing this did not mean a general "death-to-the-Lyrans" or "give-me-independence-or-give-me-death" mentally. On the contrary, it meant Tharkad could rely on Skye most of the times (again, much akin to the dual vassalage). Hence they did not disperse the Skye Brigade, did not close Sanglamore, etc. – although they perfectly knew these were prime sources for separatism.

Now you may say that is only because no foreign enemy ever tried to employ the separatists for their own goals. Perhaps, perhaps not. We will never know, and definite statements on that are epistemically impossible. It also should be noted that the ISA was not exactly competent in judging the Skye separatism. Prior to the 4th SW, they told Theodore the Syke Brigade would refuse to engage in offensive operations, only to have the 4th Skye Rangers dropping on his head. ;D

Lastly, it might well be Tharkad was meddling in Skye during the DA. It would have been illadvised and fairly unpatriotic not to support a pro-Lyran movement. The LIC was active in Clan territory too, supporting pro-Lyran forces. However you'd give the LIC too much credit if you really think they managed to spin-doctor a history of purely brutal oppression and mortal feud into a peace-and-flowers story.

[False Son]

Now you may say that is only because no foreign enemy ever tried to employ the separatists for their own goals. Perhaps, perhaps not. We will never know, and definite statements on that are epistemically impossible.

We can know for sure.  The Commonwealth supplied the Tyr movement.  The Combine did not supply the Skye Rangers.  The closest it came was mutual contact between Waterly, Ryan Steiner and Theodore Kurita.  Waterly may have helped the FRR deal come about, but I don't recall any references to any promises that the Skye rebellion would kick off once Theodore recognized the FRR.  Theodore and Waterly may have hoped for that and it ended up happening.  It wasn't on the same level as arming the 1st Tyr, then taking over future Rasalhague worlds using the LCAF.

Lastly, it might well be Tharkad was meddling in Skye during the DA. It would have been illadvised and fairly unpatriotic not to support a pro-Lyran movement. The LIC was active in Clan territory too, supporting pro-Lyran forces. However you'd give the LIC too much credit if you really think they managed to spin-doctor a history of purely brutal oppression and mortal feud into a peace-and-flowers story.

I think that was the point.  The face of the pro-Lyran movement looked strong and viable by design.  The Archon was feeding Jasek intelligence, troops and eventually he got a warship from Hesperus II.  It was way more than Terra was willing to supply for the defense of Skye.  But, to be fair, Tara Campbell, the Highlanders and Steel Wolves managed to defeat Aleksandr Hazen.  Jasek swooped in afterward and played on a good guy narrative, rescuing stranded Highlanders and raiding the Falcons on other worlds.  Gregory Kelswa-Steiner and David McKinnon had it right.  Jasek was trying to look good for bailing out the Republic after he had stripped the RAF garrisons in the first place.  While Jasek was attacking places like Towne it was the Republic and the population of Skye that had to pay for his ambitions. 

In reality it was a friendly takeover.  Mellisa II wanted Skye back, but didn't want to directly confront the Republic over it.  Better to supply this rebellious heir and make his movement seem more attractive than sending in the LCAF.

[Flieger]

We can know for sure.  The Commonwealth supplied the Tyr movement.  The Combine did not supply the Skye Rangers. 

No, you cannot know for sure what the Skye Rangers would have done had the DraCom offered them aid, just because the Rasalhague resistance embraced the Lyran help. There are a million possible scenarios.

The fact that Aldo Lestrade's murder was rumoured to be Free Skye's vengeance for his dealings with Theodore pretty much indicates that Skye does not tolerate DraCom 'help'.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

We can probably safely theorize though that the Combine wouldn't have bothered spending much effort on covert aid to Skye rebels.  To the Combine, they'll conquer what they conquer on the strength of their own Pillar of Steel.  They don't need help from gaijin local yokels.

Whatever Combine "aid" that would have come to the Free Skye movement would have likely just been spent with the aim of keeping the Lyran military and intelligence apparatus too busy to focus on direct attempts to conquer the Commonwealth.