HBS Battletech - The Argo

[Vehrec]

Can we get a complete list of all the Argo upgrades?  I know there's a pool, simulator pods, improved medical facilities, improved mechbays, restored structural components, and repaired power systems, but I don't really grasp how they all interact.  Can it really move at 2-g sustained instead of the 1-g cruise speed of everything else?

Treating the Argo as a JumpShip would be beyond silly in any case, since Jumpships don't have huge cargo bays or places for 18 battlemechs, or any of the other features of this ship.  However, the easiest way to resolve the 'jumping with an attached buddy' part is simple-have a internal component on the Argo larger than the dropship attached to it's maximum size.  If you can attach two Leopard class dropships, but the mechanism that enables this is 5000 tons in total size, you've got an...interesting piece of kit, but it takes up enough space to hold 30 mechs instead of 12.

[Empyrus]

Can we get a complete list of all the Argo upgrades?  I know there's a pool, simulator pods, improved medical facilities, improved mechbays, restored structural components, and repaired power systems, but I don't really grasp how they all interact.  Can it really move at 2-g sustained instead of the 1-g cruise speed of everything else?

Treating the Argo as a JumpShip would be beyond silly in any case, since Jumpships don't have huge cargo bays or places for 18 battlemechs, or any of the other features of this ship.  However, the easiest way to resolve the 'jumping with an attached buddy' part is simple-have a internal component on the Argo larger than the dropship attached to it's maximum size.  If you can attach two Leopard class dropships, but the mechanism that enables this is 5000 tons in total size, you've got an...interesting piece of kit, but it takes up enough space to hold 30 mechs instead of 12.

The Argo's design allows for 2g speed, it just that it is badly damaged and needs fixing to achieve that capability, the final engine upgrade requires max level structural reinforcement/repairs/whatever it was called. The game does note that using high speed is not comfortable for crew but time is money (the game does not feature negatives or toggle for speed, likely for simplicity).

As for JumpShip cargo... if the Argo was originally intended to be a KF-ship (in real life and thus in-universe), then it must have used a compact core (in-universe). IE be WarShip-like, and those can have large cargo amounts and 'Mech bays and whatever else.

[Feenix74]

Just got the Argo and completed the first upgrades to power, structure and the 2nd mech bay which will allow me a fair bit more flexibility the mechs that I have ready for deployments so that I can tailor a lance to suit the mission instead of "I have a medium-weight lancehammer and every mission objective is a nail" approach.

I can see why the Wolf's Dragoons were so blessed with their own Olympus Space Station (it certainly gives you a lot of flexibility as a mercenary unit), or even access to a Union or Overlord class dropship as a lesser mercenary unit.

[Bedwyr]

For reference, the Kickstarter update that introduced the Argo: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1512716

They never had an iteration of the concept that used an independent jump core and compared it explicitly to the Behemoth from the start. A key phrase from the update:

The prototype multiple docking collar system allowed for smaller DropShips to attach to the Argo for resupply, cargo transfer, and personnel transfer; these docking collars allowed smaller ships to remain attached while the Argo linked with a JumpShip for jump transfer, or to break off and remain in-system while the Argo moved on ahead.

Basically the dev team violated the KF docking collar rules intentionally by handwaving the docking collar system as unique, one-off Star League innovation that never really went anywhere (possibly high cost). They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

[Daryk]

Wait, you have to pay to upgrade the Argo to use the 2G cruise speed standard on the Leopard (that's apparently not accessible)?

[Feenix74]

Yep, you first have to upgrade power, structural supports and to 1.5G thrust.

Just think of it as pimping your ride, you have found a derelict '66 Mustang fastback in a farmshed, and first you fix the electrics, then the rusted structure and then you remove the stock 200 cu in inline 6 and replace it with a 289 cu in V8 then later, when you can afford it a 351 cu in V8  :thumbsup:

[Empyrus]

They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

I don't think it is that implausible. The Gray Death got their own, as do bunch of others.
Unlikely, yes, but then again is a single-lance elite merc team that doesn't do long-term contracts.

[Jayof9s]

Unlikely, yes, but then again is a single-lance elite merc team that doesn't do long-term contracts.

And they're in the Periphery with a bunch of improved weapons that function better than a lot of lostech out there.  ::)

I really love the game but it's better not to think too hard about it in terms of plausibility.

[Bedwyr]

And they're in the Periphery with a bunch of improved weapons that function better than a lot of lostech out there.  ::)

I really love the game but it's better not to think too hard about it in terms of plausibility.

Agreed. I think the Argo is there mostly to serve the game mechanics (and balance) and the in-universe justification shouldn't be looked at super hard.

That said, I think the ship could exist quite well in the universe with a few rules tweaks and more handwavium in the physical explanations surrounding the KF wave. At the very least they did a good job maintaining the general aesthetic. My only real nitpick would be having a three-pronged grav-deck but people on the bridge and engineering standing there not obviously in zero-g. Lots of magnetic boots perhaps.

[Empyrus]

I would assume artists threaten a rebellion if they have to create realistic free-fall scenes. Magboots are perhaps the probably explanation.

[Wrangler]

The Argo screams modular space station, like the Snowden but with drop collars and thrusters.  Snowden is equipment is its KF-Boom, thus it's portable and doesn't not need be dismantled. 

I don't think the HBS people though using it, i think they were making their own thing without really looking at any of rules books like Strategic Operations and Tech Manual.

[Nav_Alpha]

So, my Argo must be a decrepit hulk...
I got one pop up message/storyline episode that saw the pilot complaining about a shuddering when she was behind the stick for more than four hours.
Farah, the engineer told her to suck it up.

Next, the climate control systems died - I was getting pretty low on the cash at that stage - so mynsolution was to issue fans.
We got jumped by pirates and stopped a torpedo into the Mech bay.

So, I imagine this thing is on its last legs!

[Paul]

Initially, yeah. But you get to invest a lot of money and time/labor in making it better. The vibration event, as an example, eventually you'll gain the ability to fix it when the event comes up, based on prior upgrades.
That's true for a lot of random events: quite a few have new beneficial options as you keep improving the ship.

But the primary reason to do it, is to gain greater tech and medtech resources. Though the engine upgrades are rather nice as well.
I think 12 Mech bays is plenty though. I might go to the full 18 one day, but it'll likely be the last upgrade I give it, for completion sake.
Oh, and the physical appearance of the ship improves too, most easily seen when you refurbish one of the Pods.

[Nav_Alpha]

So far I’ve pimped out the living/barracks quarters and improved my repair times, etc by upgrading the Mechbays. Will keep chipping away at it - I like th idea of the Argo being this ancient, rusted dinosaur. Really plays into the 3025 feels

[grimlock1]

maybe we need new rules for something like this next TRO?

At the risk of incurring wrath and flames... Why? 

Granted I'm still early in the game, but what would an Argo-like bring to the table top?  Dropships are typically either attached to a jumpship or warship, which probably has a grav ring, or in transit at about 1G accel. It does offer a "safe" place to keep all your extra bits and bobs while the Leopard goes into harm's way. But jump and warships offer the same thing.

[Bedwyr]

At the risk of incurring wrath and flames... Why? 

Granted I'm still early in the game, but what would an Argo-like bring to the table top?  Dropships are typically either attached to a jumpship or warship, which probably has a grav ring, or in transit at about 1G accel. It does offer a "safe" place to keep all your extra bits and bobs while the Leopard goes into harm's way. But jump and warships offer the same thing.

The seeds of why are right there in your last sentence. It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship. *If* you can reproduce whatever magical tech is used to enable daisy chaining the docking rings.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I just wish their was a weapon upgrade because every time theirs pirates my Pilots end up in the MedBay for week...

[kato]

It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship.

By BT rules? Not really, versus jumpships at least. The driver in cost being spare parts, in an Invader / Argo combo you're spending 228,000 C-Bills per month for the Invader and 1.5 million for the Argo (or any other 100kt dropship).

What it realistically brings is insystem-mobile capacity for cargo and small craft or fighters, effectively upgrading a jumpship to warship levels in that regard without having to introduce either a warship or uncommon jumpships into the 3025 era.

Outside the art, taking a Behemoth - or something accurately sized to reflect the layout of Argo - along on the Invader with a dropship on the third hardpoint would have filled the same requirements.

[Vehrec]

The seeds of why are right there in your last sentence. It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship. *If* you can reproduce whatever magical tech is used to enable daisy chaining the docking rings.

Moving Dropships via an Argo-class isn't very efficient anyways-Argo costs over 800M C-bills by a rough calculation (which doesn't include fuel, cargo, armor, or any weapons) compared to less than 500M for a new Merchant.  The Mammoth class dropships are more effective cargo-lifters, and the Achilles makes a more effective assault dropper.  The Argo's role is as a forward operating base-it's spacious and well appointed repair bays offer a quicker turn around on salvage and repair operations, it's luxurious Canopian inspired amenities give Mechwarriors and techs alike opportunity to unwind and de-stress after operations, all within just 300 vertical kilometers of an active warzone.  With the kind of support that goes above and beyond what typical dropships can provide (no idea if an Overlord has better upkeep and aid than a Leopard, but even 'stock' the Argo's just...better) the Argo keeps a higher operational tempo possible, allowing wars to be fought faster, getting inside the enemy's OODA loop, and striking at them while their own mechs and vehicles are stuck in repair bays from the last battle.  Medical facilities might not return casualties to operation, but they can turn an outcome around, reducing fatal wounds to merely crippling, and crippling to merely 18 months therapy in a rear-area facility.  And yes, they can turn minor concussions, abrasions, contusions and lacerations around quicker.

I still wouldn't want more than 1/RCT or equivalent formation, this is a hellishly expensive ship.  You're better off transporting your forces in smaller dropships like the Union or even the Overlord for a proper assault, reserve the Leopards for special-ops stuff.  Having a single one serving a reinforced lance is hellishly wasteful, but also probably enables those famous creature comforts.

[Frabby]

Few if any DropShips are designed as habitats. In that sense the Argo fills a niche. Standard unmodified military  DropShips - 'Mech carriers in particular - are portrayed as resembling Higgins Boats more than cruise ships.

[Talen5000]

By that rationale, a Behemoth should be able to carry 39 Leopards - a suggestion that pops up from time to time. TPTB have ruled this to be impossible but haven't given a detailed explanation why, except game balance.

If you want a detailed reason why not, it's because DropShips carry KF equipment which it uses to deform a KF field and stretch it over itself. You can't carry a DropShip that isn't plugged into a Collar for the same reason you can't jump with a JumpShip. Or why you can't carry a DropShip in a DropShuttle bay.


The Argo....as described...is illegal. Now, much of the limits in the construction rules are arbitrary. There is little reason why DropShips cannot carry a GravDeck or Docking Collar for example. Easy enough to adjust. Use the Quirk Illegal.

Daisychaining the jump field, however, has potential ramifications for the universes background such that it is less easy to ignore.

It would require a rule change and/or new equipment. As this wouldn't be an issue with construction, but usage it would require something a bit more radical than a Quirk.

To fluff it....the Argo carries a system that allows for a greater expansion of the KF field than normal, allowing it to Daisy Chain the KF field.

That is, DropShips docked with the Argo can jump with the Argo even if not attached to the JumpShip.

Disadvantages.
1. Each Docking Collar is more complex than that of a standard Collar and so is more massive and more expensive. Say....100 Tons plus 5% of the maximum DropShip mass carried added to the mass of a standard collar
2. The DropShip mounting the Collar must allocate space for the docked ships. An Argo that wants to carry 2 Leopard class DropShips must allocate almost 4000 Tons to "DropShip cargo".
3. A DropShip that wants to move with docked DropShips attached must also be adapted as a Naval Tug.
4. The Internal Structure of the Mothership must then be increased by 5% to account for lost space, and adaptations made to the DropShips KF equipment
5. If additional DropShips are carried, the mothership will require two DropShip collars...one for itself and one to pr9vide the power and feed for the docked ships. Docking time is trebled because of this additional hoookup.
6. Cost of the entire system is increased as a result.

[omega2010]

Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

Correct, Dr. Murad confirms this when you ask her about the Argo.  There's a later cutscene showing the Argo joining an invasion fleet of Dropships but we never see her entering the lower atmosphere (and your lance is dropped off by Leopard later).

Murad was able to get the Argo to lift off because she crashed on a low gravity moon.

[Nicoli]

For reference, the Kickstarter update that introduced the Argo: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1512716

They never had an iteration of the concept that used an independent jump core and compared it explicitly to the Behemoth from the start. A key phrase from the update:

Basically the dev team violated the KF docking collar rules intentionally by handwaving the docking collar system as unique, one-off Star League innovation that never really went anywhere (possibly high cost). They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

My original thought when seeing it was that it was going to be an exploration Jumpship designed for long duration missions. As such, no weapons and warship capabilities to move in system to be used as a closer hub for the dropships it carried. The reason why none were really produced later is that it is really a niche ship. Too expensive for just being used for a jumpship, but it's lack of armament makes it worthless as a warship. This wouldn't exactly make it a real prize to put a target on your head.

Without digging out my books, is there a process to charge another jumpship off of another one. Because if there was you could have used that as the excuse for tethering to another jumpship.

[Hellraiser]

It occurs to me that it didn't have to be a double collar ship.

Something Mammoth sized would have been just as capable as a mobile base.




The more I look at the picture I think of Space Station still, or, a concept I once have of using a Compact Core on a Standard Jumpship, so its still weak w/ crap SI/Armor, but has a bunch of space available for cargo bays along the spine.

[guardiandashi]

It occurs to me that it didn't have to be a double collar ship.

Something Mammoth sized would have been just as capable as a mobile base.




The more I look at the picture I think of Space Station still, or, a concept I once have of using a Compact Core on a Standard Jumpship, so its still weak w/ crap SI/Armor, but has a bunch of space available for cargo bays along the spine.

sort of like my monolith warship I designed a while back.
you take a monolith jumpship replace the standard core with a compact core, put a 1/2 (or in this case a fractional 2.7 /4 insystem drive, ) moderate to lowish si and armor, and  minimal weapons (you are supposed to be a monolith) looking at HM aero. say a 10-20 SI (the armor is still pathetic) but you if you didn't actually mount or only mounted token standard scale weapons, would still work, and it would have in the neighborhood of 131,126 tons of cargo that could be used for things like supplies, mech bays fighter bays etc.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, only w/o the Warship factor.

Just use a Compact Core in a Jumpship to free up cargo/weapons space & all other rules are for Jumpships.   Basically a Jumpship w/ XL engine.

[guardiandashi]

Yeah, only w/o the Warship factor.

Just use a Compact Core in a Jumpship to free up cargo/weapons space & all other rules are for Jumpships.   Basically a Jumpship w/ XL engine.

I was giving it a 4 thrust max (2g) transit drive to match the computer game max thrust.  but shrug

[Giovanni Blasini]

That still seems awfully excessive for an explorer or base ship. It has 57 kilotons of cargo too, right?

[Paul]

Cargo capacity is unknown. For game purposes, it's infinite.

[Daryk]

Heh... it seems the Leopard's cargo capacity is also infinite...