Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard  (Read 127399 times)

JAMES_PRYDE

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1380 on: 05 September 2024, 01:04:07 »
Nope, Turkina Keshik remained intact during Malvina's reign.

Ah ok, then yes, atonement

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1381 on: 05 September 2024, 07:52:48 »
Yeah. Raptor Keshik, and eventually the Falcon Guard were what kept Malvina alive when the RAF's Old Guard tried to kill her. Not the black flag attack, but the elite assault regiment that went straight for her Keshik to get her

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1382 on: 06 September 2024, 02:26:07 »
Not her whole reign, only until Terra, then finito.

Yes, actually, her whole reign. Turkina Keshik fought on Terra. Trying to split hairs and say "not her whole reign" when it was, at best, a matter of days between the destruction of the Falcon touman and Malvina's death seems a bit silly and pointless.

And you're missing the point anyway. The question was if Turkina Keshik was disbanded and replaced by Raptor Keshik when Malvina became Khan. It was not. The two existed simultaneously during the entirety of her reign as Khan, until the ilClan Trial wiped out the Falcons' touman almost entirely and both units ceased to exist.
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Church14

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1383 on: 06 September 2024, 08:29:29 »
Not her whole reign, only until Terra, then finito.
If the unit made it to Terra, then splitting hairs on when the specific unit actually died on Terra compared to when Malvina died is pedantry.


That said, Turkina Keshik seems to have perished before the ilClan trial. On T+56, Turkina Keshik protected both injured Falcon Khans from Stone's Lament under Paladin Lakewood. Given that's their last mention, it seems they died standing their ground until Vau and Alpha Galaxies could get the Khans out. They don't appear on the ilClan Trial map either. So Malvina's reign lasted a whopping 40 days more than Turkina Keshik. She herself made it another 3 days.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1384 on: 06 September 2024, 08:43:25 »
Not being mentioned after a certain point does not say they're dead. It says they're not mentioned. Until their death is mentioned, they ain't dead.
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Church14

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1385 on: 06 September 2024, 09:50:12 »
Not being mentioned after a certain point does not say they're dead. It says they're not mentioned. Until their death is mentioned, they ain't dead.

Yeah. I had to qualify it as it seems like they are dead. Terran Falcons presumably would want a keshik and Turkina would have less baggage than Raptor Keshik. So it might 'survive' into the ilClan era.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1386 on: 06 September 2024, 10:00:31 »
Until I see specific reports of a unit's death or disbandment, I'm assuming it still exists in a greatly reduced form. Galaxies reduced to Trinaries, Keshiks reduced to Stars, stuff like that. I fully expect a complete reorganization like what happened after the Refusal Was, but until we get IKEO, it hasn't happened yet.

Speaking of which, are there any Galaxies we KNOW are completely gone, aside from that one that fell into a Japan-shaped hole? No guesstimating or inferring here, I'm talking about ones where the book explicitly says "they're all dead or disbanded".
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1387 on: 06 September 2024, 10:04:26 »
Galaxies reduced to Trinaries is still more than the Falcons had left at the end of the ilClan Trial.  Some formations have to be gone, even if we don't have evidence to speculate which.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1388 on: 06 September 2024, 10:05:25 »
I suspect we'll get a more detailed look at the damage once IlClan's Eyes Only releases.
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Church14

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1389 on: 07 September 2024, 10:24:13 »
Until I see specific reports of a unit's death or disbandment, I'm assuming it still exists in a greatly reduced form. Galaxies reduced to Trinaries, Keshiks reduced to Stars, stuff like that. I fully expect a complete reorganization like what happened after the Refusal Was, but until we get IKEO, it hasn't happened yet.

Speaking of which, are there any Galaxies we KNOW are completely gone, aside from that one that fell into a Japan-shaped hole? No guesstimating or inferring here, I'm talking about ones where the book explicitly says "they're all dead or disbanded".
Marthe did some creative bookkeeping calling binaries trinaries, etc. but even she would struggle to not strike units from the rolls in this case.

Even reducing a cluster to just a trinary leaves falcons with, optimistically, 7 "clusters" of their pre-Terran 52 ish. Some units died. I expect some optimistic bookkeeping myself, but wildly optimistic bookkeeping leave falcons with a Keshik and two clusters.

Regarding your question, ilClan was probably intentionally mum on specifics, and I'm not rechecking HotW. These are specific losses/survivors called out
- Khan dead
- saKhan dead
- 1 Surviving Galaxy commander out of 12 (Stephanie Chistu)
- Forward Fire Battery Beta - 100% casualties. Whoever they were
- Seventh Falcon Striker Cluster - 100% losses.
- First Falcon Jaegers - 2 surviving warriors
- Third Falcon Velites surrendering after killing mongol commander.
- 7th Kommando's raid crippled falcon ASF assets with plenty of ASF jocks still alive



I suspect we'll get a more detailed look at the damage once IlClan's Eyes Only releases.
I expect you're right.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1390 on: 07 September 2024, 11:00:15 »
- 7th Kommando's raid crippled falcon ASF assets with plenty of ASF jocks still alive

Ooooo, I would be 100% on board if the Falcons became a fighter-heavy Clan! Maybe not go full Raven on it, but something akin to the Cloud Cobras.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1391 on: 07 September 2024, 11:27:27 »
That would be an interesting way to differentiate the Star League Falcons from the others.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1392 on: 07 September 2024, 14:11:20 »
Ooooo, I would be 100% on board if the Falcons became a fighter-heavy Clan! Maybe not go full Raven on it, but something akin to the Cloud Cobras.
I think it is more likely that Malvina sent them fighting as infantry.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1393 on: 07 September 2024, 14:55:38 »
Ooooo, I would be 100% on board if the Falcons became a fighter-heavy Clan! Maybe not go full Raven on it, but something akin to the Cloud Cobras.

This is the best damn idea I heard in ages

Sudeten Falcons are already carrying the torch of the old Clan, this would give Terran Falcons new path and purpose

Plus ilClan needs a good fleet

Have Terran Falcons go full aerospace with small elite ground units attached for areal insertion (with all those jump jets that their mechs have they already come prepared)

Plus it would be so appropriate given the bird iconography



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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1394 on: 07 September 2024, 15:25:01 »
This is the best damn idea I heard in ages

Sudeten Falcons are already carrying the torch of the old Clan, this would give Terran Falcons new path and purpose

Plus ilClan needs a good fleet

Have Terran Falcons go full aerospace with small elite ground units attached for areal insertion (with all those jump jets that their mechs have they already come prepared)

Plus it would be so appropriate given the bird iconography

ilClan doesn't need a good fleet, they've got the only fleet in town, period.  It doesn't have to be good when you're the only one around.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1395 on: 07 September 2024, 16:18:57 »
I'd just drop fleet from the description. Talking pilot corps, pilot culture, and for the ground forces more of an expeditionary force, or air assault/dropship assault model. Could take a page from the Nova Cats and get really good at the hover drop for example, among other methods.

Leave navy/naval/fleet to the ilClan's space sailors (whether Spheroid or Clan) and you'll avoid going too far into copycatting the Ravens. The Ravens put navy and aerospace together and binded them at the hip but it doesn't have to be that way. You can let the spacers do their thing while the Falcons have their own specialties.

For this Falcon idea I'd suggest going more pilot, pilot culture, aerospace fighters, some combat dropship support, as you said supporting small elite ground units configured for insertion from the air. Make it a joke that even Falcon mechwarriors earn their wings eventually, albeit more akin to falling from the sky.

And lean into pilot culture. Really lean into it. The Ravens tried but it gets buried beneath naval/naval building/political. The Cobras tried but it gets buried beneath religion and philosophy. I'm sure every Clan has its pilot culture amongst their flyers but it gets buried a bit beneath the other traits associated with that Clan. Be more like the Outworlds Alliance in the old days. The Alliance Aces would hold competitions amongst themselves like the Bombardier competition to see who can put the most bombs on a target. They wear old school leather flight jackets.

I do think there are some good ideas in here. I especially just like the idea of differentiating the Terran Falcons from the others, and with something that really can't be interpreted as Mongol 2.0 without really stretching the facts.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1396 on: 07 September 2024, 16:28:45 »
ilClan doesn't need a good fleet, they've got the only fleet in town, period.  It doesn't have to be good when you're the only one around.

I was talking about fighters not warships




Church14

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1397 on: 07 September 2024, 17:04:47 »
Ooooo, I would be 100% on board if the Falcons became a fighter-heavy Clan! Maybe not go full Raven on it, but something akin to the Cloud Cobras.
Admittedly, this was day three of the trial, and after a brutal extended campaign where ASF tends to take higher attrition. So it's not like Falcon ASF is in great shape. Just that there would have a chunk of them screwed out of getting into the sky on Day 3.

I think it is more likely that Malvina sent them fighting as infantry.
I would find it hard to believe that the ASF jocks didn't pick up guns and kill some Kommandos. But I think the ASF runways were well behind the lines. Especially given day three was Falcons pushing back the wolves and trying to split the wolf touman in half. So even farther than normal from the front. By the time the Kommandos hit, there was only a few hours left at most.

« Last Edit: 07 September 2024, 17:09:10 by Church14 »

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1398 on: 07 September 2024, 17:10:16 »
ilClan doesn't need a good fleet, they've got the only fleet in town, period.  It doesn't have to be good when you're the only one around.

That only gets you so far.  If you don't actually know how to use your warships properly, you're at real risk of losing them.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1399 on: 08 September 2024, 06:37:35 »
this would give Terran Falcons new path and purpose

Did y'all not read HotW/ilClan? The surviving Falcons on Terra already have a new path and purpose: to serve as a Black Watch equivalent and to be the measuring stick/sharpening stone for the rest of the Clans. Not that this isn't a cute little idea and everything, but there's nothing to indicate or even imply that it's gonna happen.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1400 on: 09 September 2024, 03:34:59 »
I would find it hard to believe that the ASF jocks didn't pick up guns and kill some Kommandos. But I think the ASF runways were well behind the lines. Especially given day three was Falcons pushing back the wolves and trying to split the wolf touman in half. So even farther than normal from the front. By the time the Kommandos hit, there was only a few hours left at most.

Funny enough in Redemption Rites Kincaid chastises Brubaker in sending the Kommandos to raid the air fields instead of conducting a simply infantry raid. But then again who knows how it might have ended if it were simple Dragoon infantry raiding the bases.

Also in terms of pilot culture: do the current Terran Clans even have something of an ASF culture? FM 3145 mentioned that the Wolves had not that much of a ASF corps and the Falcons seem to also follow that route with both focusing more on ground forces. The Falcons seemed to have something of a culture of air assaults with Cardinals filled with battle armor though
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1401 on: 09 September 2024, 05:15:25 »
If the Wolves/Falcons had anything averaging to a Star/Binary/Trinary of ASFs per cluster, and I suspect they did (a binary/trinary of ASFs per Cluster has traditionally been the norm), yes they had a pilot sub-culture and operate an air arm. Think of it like a pilot sub-culture within each Clan. It's just buried in the background noise of the universe and not talked about as much as 'mechs and other ground units.

After the fighting for Terra they could be depleted, strength wise, sure. But all branches were depleted.
« Last Edit: 09 September 2024, 05:28:36 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1402 on: 09 September 2024, 08:44:06 »
True. I only remember from Redemption rites Othar thinking that the Wolves didn't have huge ASF sibkos / corps when the Dragoons raided Gienah and that they didn't have much in terms of protection from the sky. Even on Trellisane the air cover the Wolves had was provided by former League technicians who piloted Stingrays and Lancers. And I don't have much in terms of fighter pilots of the Falcons either. Then again just think of the original bloodnames: majority Mechwarriors, followed by Aerospace pilots and just a handful of tankers / infantry
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1403 on: 09 September 2024, 09:32:05 »
EDIT: Revised my post for brevity's sake. There's just a difference here between paper strength and perception. Particularly in novels. You don't see a lot of air battles and campaigns get fully fleshed out in Battletech novels where the focus is usually the ground action. Even if there are entire air wings or multiple ASF trinaries present, the topic tends to get neglected. Yet the paper strength reality is that air power was present and fought.
« Last Edit: 09 September 2024, 10:01:34 by Alan Grant »

Church14

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1404 on: 09 September 2024, 10:02:32 »
True. I only remember from Redemption rites Othar thinking that the Wolves didn't have huge ASF sibkos / corps when the Dragoons raided Gienah and that they didn't have much in terms of protection from the sky. Even on Trellisane the air cover the Wolves had was provided by former League technicians who piloted Stingrays and Lancers. And I don't have much in terms of fighter pilots of the Falcons either. Then again just think of the original bloodnames: majority Mechwarriors, followed by Aerospace pilots and just a handful of tankers / infantry

Because wolves took most of the ASF with them to Terra and the Empire lacks the ability to replenish ASF losses in any decent timeframe.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1405 on: 13 September 2024, 12:21:51 »
In theory, the Wolf Empire shall fall like a house of cards. This would be quite an interesting scenario if the ilClan does only have Terra and lost all other industries, sibkos and their genetic material.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1406 on: 13 September 2024, 17:22:34 »
In theory, the Wolf Empire shall fall like a house of cards. This would be quite an interesting scenario if the ilClan does only have Terra and lost all other industries, sibkos and their genetic material.

So in essence the Wolves are just a small steps behind the Falcons. The Falcons have already lost most of their holdings and the remnants have split into two factions. Though the Wolves will most likely build at least a small ring around Terra but I would also think that their Empire will fold quickly especially after they lost their lead units when the Dragoons struck Gienah. Remember right after that the Free Worlds declared an all out war against the Empire
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1407 on: 13 September 2024, 19:06:31 »
But the Clan Protectorate and elements of Clan Sea Fox were also coming to the Empire's aid. Combined with the two Wolf garrison Galaxies and their proven ability to whistle up combat-capable units from nowhere, I don't think the Wolf Empire is a write-off yet.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1408 on: 13 September 2024, 21:10:01 »
Again, cannot technically Terran Falcons derive genetic material for new Sibkos from literally the warriors left ? (As was the case from the first Generation of Trueborns after the second exodus). Also when they get contact with the Sudeten Falcons, assuming all is nice, again, cannot they get copies of the genetic stock from them ?

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard
« Reply #1409 on: 13 September 2024, 22:19:35 »
To the first part, technically yes they can but it really hinges on whether or not they even have iron wombs available.  And really even if they did, it would take 16+ years before those sibkos became warriors, so not really helpful.

To the second part, that really depends on Jiyi, and I don't get the impression that he's going to want to hitch his wagon to Alaric's.
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