Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III

[tassa_kay]

I'd imagine the Ares would fill the same role that the Doom Courser does, which is why I suspect the Horses won't see much need to acquire them.

[Maelwys]

Theoretically it might work for the Horses with their "Its the man and not the machine" concept. We've already seen them set up two Warrior crews with the QuadVees, so the idea of a 3 person crew might not be that far of a stretch. Then again the third person in the machine is a "technical/tactical" position, which might grate against their abilities (unlike in QuadVees where they're both active during combat).

As for tactics, it would fit with the Horses "Mongol" philosophy of having lighter units pull their enemies into the heavier elements of a Cluster.

It just seems a little off though. More as I think about it.

[Maelwys]

I'd imagine the Ares would fill the same role that the Doom Courser does, which is why I suspect the Horses won't see much need to acquire them.

I was going to say that the Doom Courser was an odd choice, but after re-reading the fluff on it, about how smaller mechs protect it and pull units to the heavier Mech, yeah, I can see it.

And there are alot of other designs out there they they can use as well.

And those designs don't require 3 Warriors per machine, don't require a whole new tech learning curve, don't require you to start buying Inner Sphere ammo for your missile launchers (and replacement IS missile launchers as well), don't require you to figure out how to transport them in an effective manner, etc etc etc.

And I think I'm really back with my original idea. Yeah, it would work in theory. Would it work so much better than what the Horses already have to overcome the negatives? Probably not.

[Metallgewitter]

Theoretically it might work for the Horses with their "Its the man and not the machine" concept. We've already seen them set up two Warrior crews with the QuadVees, so the idea of a 3 person crew might not be that far of a stretch. Then again the third person in the machine is a "technical/tactical" position, which might grate against their abilities (unlike in QuadVees where they're both active during combat).

As for tactics, it would fit with the Horses "Mongol" philosophy of having lighter units pull their enemies into the heavier elements of a Cluster.

It just seems a little off though. More as I think about it.

That's rather strange as the last operations of the horses against the Bears had the horses use a new version of the mongol doctrine: heavy and assault Mechs instead of light units.and it kind of makes sense the horses had up till the recapture of New Oslo no real production center for anything but heavies and assaults

[tassa_kay]

That's rather strange as the last operations of the horses against the Bears had the horses use a new version of the mongol doctrine: heavy and assault Mechs instead of light units.and it kind of makes sense the horses had up till the recapture of New Oslo no real production center for anything but heavies and assaults

That was neither strange nor new at all; the Horses' Mongol Doctrine always involved heavy and assault units (the tulughma), utilized alongside their lighter units (the mangudai). What Maelwys described (the mangudai pulling the enemy into the tulughma) is exactly what the Mongol Doctrine always was for the Horses. Sarna for some reason doesn't mention this at all in the Mongol Doctrine entry, though it is mentioned in their write-up for the 1st Horse Cluster, and it is also explained at length in the Dark Age novel "A Rending of Falcons".

[truetanker]

O can see a clan built Ares as an anchor Support Point in a Binary of mixed units.

Like Fast Recon, Proto's, slow Kokou / Mars Points and maybe a "fast" 3/5 Heavy
Support' Star.

I wonder, a Nova CEWS variant of the Aphrodite...

TT

[Metallgewitter]

That was neither strange nor new at all; the Horses' Mongol Doctrine always involved heavy and assault units (the tulughma), utilized alongside their lighter units (the mangudai). What Maelwys described (the mangudai pulling the enemy into the tulughma) is exactly what the Mongol Doctrine always was for the Horses. Sarna for some reason doesn't mention this at all in the Mongol Doctrine entry, though it is mentioned in their write-up for the 1st Horse Cluster, and it is also explained at length in the Dark Age novel "A Rending of Falcons".

too be honest I haven't read a lot of novels from the Dark Age, i stick more with the sourcebooks. and those often describe the mongol's as a lightweight and quick force. There was a note that the Kell hounds had no trouble to crush the light units with their own heavy Mechs as they were experienced enough to deal with said tactics. And I did not find much else about the Mongol doctrine in the books

[Maelwys]

You can find the details in the Era Report 3145 under the write up of the 1st Horde Cluster, but basically its a light Trinary with a Heavy Assault Trinary and a "Support' Supernova. (Though I believe the units have been bulked up since). And that's it. The idea is the light units harass units and lead them to the heavy/assault units, which flatten them. Its a perfectly fine tactic. Its a perfectly fine tactic to build a Cluster around. But...you can probably find the same tactic in like...dozens of Field Manual entries over the years. Its hardly revolutionary. It makes sense if you're producing mostly light and assault units.

Its not really a "Lets make our entire Touman like this" kind of thing. Because eventually someone's going to be like "Every time someone chases Clan Hell's Horses' light mechs, they eventually get hit by the assault units. How about this. We don't chase it..infact, we pull back and try to get them to follow us."

And those of you may be wondering what it has to do with Malvina's Mongol Terror tactics.

Absolutely nothing. One is a Cluster-level tactical doctrine, the other is a Touman-level or perhaps Clan-level way of warfare.

Its like someone showed Malvina a history book on Mongols and said "This is where we got our inspiration from" and then she opens an entirely different history book on Mongols and said "This is perfect!"

[tassa_kay]

Its like someone showed Malvina a history book on Mongols and said "This is where we got our inspiration from" and then she opens an entirely different history book on Mongols and said "This is perfect!"

Kind of the reverse, actually. The Horses heard about Malvina's Mongol Doctrine, got it into their stupid heads that she was committing copyright infringement for... reasons, went to challenge her over it, lost... and Malvina later decided to use that against them and bind the Horses closer to her.

[truetanker]

Which is why I always lead my Lights with Assaults. And use a swinging pincher move as your tangling with the heavier units while my lighter ones, swing around towards your rear.

TT

[Natasha Kerensky]

This old thread on what real-world Mongol tactics actually were and how to apply them in BT with Horse units may be useful:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=81453.0

[truetanker]

In your last post in that thread, you mentioned no such Clan Tank carrier...

There is...

Lion WD.

10 Mechs and 10 Vehicles with 2 more vehicle cubicles open. Only missing is the Infantry racks for the Battle Armor or other...

TT

[Natasha Kerensky]

Yeah, unfortunately on the MUL, in all eras, only Wolf’s Dragoons has access to the WD Lions, both the 3025 and 3052 variants.

[truetanker]

See, I see a problem with that.

Who's making them if the OG factory is gone? They "Lost" their Hephaestus Station, so that's not it.

And we know from Klondike that the OG Lions were around, and that the EC version of the Clans modified them with Clan tech.

So, again... where's the "factory" building these? Other than the Clans.

I've always been under the impression, if it doesn't say a one-off in the fluff or production explanation, then it is a series creation. Example: Phobos and Deimos, Danias/Trojan-classes, their considered one offs, but still a class in their own rights. Unlike say the Union, of which they "look" like...

So, again, what's stopping a Lion-C from being stripped of its PBI Binary and most of its cargo for Heavy Vehicle Cubicles? Or a Standard SLDF-in-Exile Lion as well? (All they did was remove 900 tons to make those first 12 Light bays to Heavy and add-on 2 more Mech cubicles.)?

TT

I think it is an oversight...

[Natasha Kerensky]

My headcannon is that the Goon variant of the Lion was actually just a Clan variant for the Horses and secondline forces in any other Clans that needed to move vehicles between worlds.  Clanners didn’t want to waste resources on a special-purpose Dropship for moving dezgra vehicles, so, like you say, they shuffled cubicles around on old Lions.  But the MUL doesn’t agree.

I’m also skeptical of the MUL’s claim that the 3005 variant of the Goon Lion is present in every era.  Presumably, the Goons would have switched over to the 3052 variant sometime after, you know, 3052.

A Clantech “Lion II” could have been a great, dedicated transport for mech/elemental nova formations, which is an even bigger hole in Clan transport than a dropship for vehicles.  But instead the Clan Lion got relegated to unarmored infantry, of all things, which is probably the thing Clan toumans least need to move between worlds.

Like I wrote in that old thread, the Clan really need a retconned, dedicated, inter-Clan, binary- or trinary-sized dropship for mech/elemental novas that drop from altitude together.  The Outpost is cool and all, but it has limited distribution across Clans and eras and the vehicles and four (?) fighters are odd and unnecessary distractions.

Same goes for a retconned, dedicated, inter-Clan, binary- or trinary-sized vehicle carrier.  The Polaris is also cool and all, but its distribution is even more limited than the Outpost, and the elementals and cruise missiles are also odd and unnecessary distractions.

[truetanker]

Klondike states the Colossus went with the Clans, but that's a big boi. So did the Fortress, again too big.

But what strikes me, is that the Drost IIa and IIb, the Jumbo and even the older Dictator / HQ are common enough for their respected transportation and easy accruements, that SLDF could have brought, including, sad as it may seem, the Princess and Monarch.

Hell there's even the Liberty, Leviathan and maybe Uma jumpships.

TT

[Metallgewitter]

Did the Dictator even survive the SL civil war in enough numbers? If my memory is correct the Dictator became a priority target for Caspar drones and when the SLDF went into exile they preferred the newer Overlord.

[truetanker]

It's listed in Klondike under both Pentagon and Clan RATs.

And we are told that all RATs are a "general" association of common enough use.

So yeah...

There are also no bulk freighters in Clan Space, yet they can transport RAW, Resources, Armor and Weapons around. There isn't a Mule C upgrade, and the Mule itself is not even a "Common" enough to register in the modern Invasion era. Yet again, there isn't a RAW carrier named.

Most of the Clans are told to be resource restrained and using older ships is "beneath" them.

That's insane.

TT

[Mendrugo]

Technically, we've never seen a RAT for the Free Guilds.  Could be the majority of bulk transports are in their hands.

[truetanker]

Other than the Carrack...

No, we don't.

TT

[Metallgewitter]

It's listed in Klondike under both Pentagon and Clan RATs.

And we are told that all RATs are a "general" association of common enough use.

So yeah...

Just too a look at Sarna and it states for the Dictator:

Many of this class were destroyed during the Amaris Civil War, and the aging Dictator was mostly abandoned by SLDF forces taking part in the Exodus in favor of the newer Overlord.

Well another set of confusing information i'd say. Begs the question what came first, Operation Klondike or TRO 3075? Though maybe the Dictators were converted into freighters  for other gear while the Overlords became the primary Mech transporter during the Exodus. Or the SLDF-in-Exile began building new Dictators during the short time they were actually building things.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hello horses I am wanting to try and paint up a force of HH delta galaxy example here: https://camospecs.com/listing/warhammer-iic-8-5/

I primarily use games workshop paints but I have yet to find the shade of brown/reddish tan that I like. Any suggestions?

[truetanker]

Hello horses I am wanting to try and paint up a force of HH delta galaxy example here: https://camospecs.com/listing/warhammer-iic-8-5/

I primarily use games workshop paints but I have yet to find the shade of brown/reddish tan that I like. Any suggestions?

Looks like a "Dark Bronze" color.

So maybe add some black in?

Don't know what paint mixtures you've done, but that's a fair questmation I can come up with.

I generally use Citadel or even the old Testors, but I haven't the need to paint since, oh, '08?

What's your medium? Airbrush, Brush or Marker?

(Permanente Markers come in bold and metallics now.) (<--click here)

Just Prime and Maker it.

TT

[truetanker]

Just too a look at Sarna and it states for the Dictator:

Many of this class were destroyed during the Amaris Civil War, and the aging Dictator was mostly abandoned by SLDF forces taking part in the Exodus in favor of the newer Overlord.

Well another set of confusing information i'd say. Begs the question what came first, Operation Klondike or TRO 3075? Though maybe the Dictators were converted into freighters  for other gear while the Overlords became the primary Mech transporter during the Exodus. Or the SLDF-in-Exile began building new Dictators during the short time they were actually building things.

But if you notice, Jim-Bob, the Mule, is still flying and so is Mary-Sue, the DroST. But yet, theirs'll from the same era, or even the Uncle Willy, the Jumbo. He's ancient yet still flying bootleg out in the Periphery, somewhere. What about Cousin It, the Manatee, that's around, and still flying, yet it's not "common enough" for mainstream?

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

Looks like a "Dark Bronze" color.

So maybe add some black in?

Don't know what paint mixtures you've done, but that's a fair questmation I can come up with.

I generally use Citadel or even the old Testors, but I haven't the need to paint since, oh, '08?

What's your medium? Airbrush, Brush or Marker?

(Permanente Markers come in bold and metallics now.) (<--click here)

Just Prime and Maker it.

TT

I use brush thanks for the marker tip