Author Topic: Box Set  (Read 48651 times)

klarg1

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #240 on: 17 March 2017, 14:29:34 »
One last note: some folks have started to conflate the idea of "faster" rules with "simpler" rules, and I don't think that's quite right. Sure, BT would be faster if you reduced, say, all weapons fire from one side to a single roll. That's an extreme, but the point is that I actually don't think a super-simplified game would be any more effective in keeping players' interest than an unnecessarily complex one.

What I've been pondering on my commutes all week is how to create a BT game that's "hookier" than what we have now, takes less time on average to play, but is deep enough ("deep" not meaning thousands of pages of rules!) to maintain players' interest AND is financially successful.

Crass as it sounds, I'd settle for just the last thing. Let Chess be the perfect "minutes to learn, lifetime to master" game. I'd settle for a BattleTech line that's financially viable.

As an introduction, or as a replacement? As was said upthread, MWDA ticks lot of those boxes, and (I am told) was a pretty decent game. That makes it a product worth selling, but then I have to ask: What counts as promoting/growing/saving battletech? A new, streamlined game could carry on the Universe, but if you actually enjoy the "classic" game, you are instead being presented a shiny new toy, rather than a new gadget to enhance the old one.

I am asking as an honest question, and I expect the answer to be different for different people: Are you aiming to promote the game (meaning the existing board game) or the Universe / feel? It may be that at some point the old board game will no longer be fiscally viable, and CGL won't be able to sustain it, but helping CGL and helping Battletech (the board game) are different goals. Both are worthy, but they are not equivalent. The path to satisfying both of them may diverge substantially at some point.

Obviously, CGL needs to keep itself solvent to do anything at all, but I think it's worth keeping the distinction in mind.

Anyway, this is starting to drift away from the main topic. I'm all for a streamlined new boxed set to draw in the marks. I'll do what I can to help it happen, but, in my position, that mostly adds up to buying Catalyst products to keep them in business in the mean time.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #241 on: 17 March 2017, 14:52:27 »
I have always wanted the story to go on, as fed up as a I get with aspects (kill the small factions!), the universe is what I enjoy.  Its why I am happy to see novels come back even if its only one so far though the digital releases have been great.

I think it is important if they go forward with AS to remember the 'backwards-portability' for those of us still playing Classic.
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worktroll

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #242 on: 17 March 2017, 15:48:30 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.
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worktroll

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #243 on: 17 March 2017, 15:51:30 »
Aiming high doesn't necessarily mean aiming for high quality.

Nice strawman.

However, aiming high - in any or all of the areas you've chosen to highlight - doesn't mean achieving high. Plenty of evidence CGL is aiming high where they think they can achieve. Extent of achievement - that's something each of us has opinions on, which is how it works. To quote the ITIL guide (hey, fellow IT people!) "value is determined by the customer", and quite rightly.
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* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #244 on: 17 March 2017, 15:59:54 »
Nice strawman.
To quote the ITIL guide (hey, fellow IT people!) "value is determined by the customer", and quite rightly.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #245 on: 17 March 2017, 16:07:35 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

A highly parochial audience, encouraged by tptb to be parochial (whatever works at your table), is going to have a wide variance of concerns, needs, and wants. Especially when there are so few of us who post here regularly enough to form any representative consensus on those opinions. I voice my concerns here and generally show appreciation with my wallet. Ultimately it's up to CGL to sort though the noise and make decisions. But my, or anyone else's, thoughts won't be heard if they're not expressed - cacophonous or otherwise.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #246 on: 17 March 2017, 16:11:31 »
Thinking about it more I think it would be good to have a $60 standard boxset as before, hopefully with new mini's + an actual intro boxset that has 8 minis (1 lance each side) that is balanced and a paper map + intro rules for AS. That way you have a smaller point of entry and have 4 mechs per side, balanced well out. Quicker rules. IF they like it, there can be a link to CBT intro rule set.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #247 on: 17 March 2017, 16:52:57 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

Well, between what Sartis laid out and the fact we do not have any sort of narrow focus in the OP there are several conversations going on.
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klarg1

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #248 on: 17 March 2017, 16:54:19 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

Actually, for all my speculation in this thread, I'm actually pretty content with the Battletech goodies they've been handing me over the years.

I may be atypical.   ::)

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #249 on: 17 March 2017, 16:58:51 »
Well, between what Sartis laid out and the fact we do not have any sort of narrow focus in the OP there are several conversations going on.

And to be sure I'm monitoring the conversation for further "upsetted-off" outbreaks and generally don't have a problem with the varying lines of conversation. They continually link back to the OP inquiry as anything Catalyst wants to do to boost BT revenue revolves around box set availability of some kind. So I guess regard that as officially approved as on topic, natural conversation for the thread.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #250 on: 17 March 2017, 17:06:03 »
True, what I was meaning is that if we had a question of 'What do you think needs to be in a $20/25 Intro Box' vs 'Should intro boxes have maps?' is part of why we have a variety of answers.
Colt Ward
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #251 on: 17 March 2017, 17:27:27 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

Consensus comes through the course of discussion, the fact that players have varied opinions when they enter into a discussion should be fairly normal. 

Nice strawman.

However, aiming high - in any or all of the areas you've chosen to highlight - doesn't mean achieving high. Plenty of evidence CGL is aiming high where they think they can achieve. Extent of achievement - that's something each of us has opinions on, which is how it works. To quote the ITIL guide (hey, fellow IT people!) "value is determined by the customer", and quite rightly.

Clarifying my point doesn't make it a strawman, the fact that I have advocated less quality in the boxset (cardboard counters) earlier in this thread is consistent with that.  Also I never made any argument about achievement, so not really sure what you're responding to.

Either way I don't believe that making vague or blanket statements about what a company has or has not achieved really contributes to anything. what's more helpful is the discussion of specific examples.  For example what was it about Leviathans that caused that project to fail? How can those lessons be applied to the battletech line. What are some of the strengths of the line, what are some of its weaknesses. Current availability of the boxset is a weakness, some have said that the price is a weakness as well, others have argued that it's good value. Etcetera

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #252 on: 17 March 2017, 17:50:02 »
Quote from: Colt Ward
True, what I was meaning is that if we had a question of 'What do you think needs to be in a $20/25 Intro Box' vs 'Should intro boxes have maps?' is part of why we have a variety of answers.

Two paper maps, an Enforcer and a Hunchback. Intro to the Universe book from the old Intro box set, Quick Start rules. Quick Start record sheets for a handful of 'Mechs besides those two, to give you a feel for other 'Mechs, and encourage you to step up to other products, including the classic box set.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #253 on: 17 March 2017, 17:53:06 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

I think that is the case with most fandoms, though.  I can only speak from my own experience, but if you get a group of fifteen Transformers nerds together and ask them what the worst version of the franchise is, you will get nineteen different variations on how such-and-such RUINED EVERYTHING FOREVER.

It may be helpful to start back at the beginning.  We are all here because we enjoy this game.  Most of us have invested significant amounts of time and money into it.  It would be foolish to deny that the game is not as popular as many of the titles that are often framed as competitors, though.  40K is more popular.  Flames of War is more popular.  X-Wing is more popular.  So what is the deal?  What needs to be done to make Battletech more financially viable?

You will never convince me that the rules aren't too complicated.  But that's me.  I recognize that a lot of existing fans really like the rules as they are and I do not, despite appearances, want to deny those fans the game they enjoy.  Looking at competing games, though, I (personally) have to believe that that complication is (at least) part of it.  What is the solution?  I don't know.  I would say that someone at CGL might take a look at reframing Total Warfare as Advanced Battletech and reworking the most basic, introductory rules to cut away some of the detail.  Do we really need so many target and movement modifiers for a basic-level game?  I would say no, but that decision isn't mine to make.

Coming back around to the point of this topic, though, one thing that DEFINITELY needs to happen is better options for introducing new players to the game with, or without, a rules change.  We need an Intro Box.  Would it hurt to have a more basic, $20 Super Intro Set that comes with stripped down rules, a fold up paper map, and a lot of cardboard counters?  I don't think it would.  I understand that not everyone sees it that way, though.  I understand that a lot of people see 'cardboard counters' and think 'cheap'. 

One question that we have to ask, though, is whether or not the plastic minis that came with the last box set say something other than cheap.  Are they nice minis?  Heck yeah.  I love them.  How much of that has to do with the actual minis, though?  And how much of it is nostalgia?  Do potential players look at our Intro minis and see the improvements that we do?  Or do they see the 'future of the 80's, guy in a cardboard box suit of armor' that a lot of the 3025 designs look like (if I'm being honest)?

What about focus groups?  Is that a thing that business do anymore?  I realize that they cost money, but... would it be a viable option?
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #254 on: 17 March 2017, 18:19:56 »
One question that we have to ask, though, is whether or not the plastic minis that came with the last box set say something other than cheap.  Are they nice minis?  Heck yeah.  I love them.  How much of that has to do with the actual minis, though?  And how much of it is nostalgia?  Do potential players look at our Intro minis and see the improvements that we do?  Or do they see the 'future of the 80's, guy in a cardboard box suit of armor' that a lot of the 3025 designs look like (if I'm being honest)?

What about focus groups?  Is that a thing that business do anymore?  I realize that they cost money, but... would it be a viable option?

I don't think you need focus groups for a game this size, just outside playtesters.  You can even pretend that it's a brand new game, strip off the labels, give it to a group of people who never played battletech (or a group that's never played games), allow them to learn the rules on their own, and see what feedback they give.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #255 on: 17 March 2017, 20:43:24 »
Why should an introductory box be attractive to old players?  Isn't that the core of the problem that the box is having now? That it's not getting into the hands of the desired audience, new players, and expanding the player base?

I remember when the last Box Set came out, several people were whining that they didn't get one, because other people had bought 2-3 copies of it.   ::)  Some were "Old" players doing the whining also, while some were "New".  I guess CGL getting money is a "Bad Thing" unless certain people are allowed to give it to them?   ;D

I was one of MANY that took advantage of the BattleShop deal, where you buy 2 Box Sets (for a slight discount I think?), and you got a 3rd set of the minis for free.  Sure, I've got all the other Box Sets, but I wanted to support CGL.  I guess now I'm somehow a "Thief" of some sort, because I was "Greedy" and bought 2 of the Box Sets for myself?   ::)

I can remember "Back In the Day", when you could always find a Box Set (2nd or 3rd Edition) on the shelves, but that was many years ago, and things have changed Considerably since then.  As others have said, CGL is doing what they can, and I'm sure everyone from Randall on down WANTS a new Box Set in stores ALL the Time. As frustrating as it is for us Fans, it's Probably MORE so for Randall and the gang.   :-\
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #256 on: 17 March 2017, 22:52:49 »
Coming back around to the point of this topic, though, one thing that DEFINITELY needs to happen is better options for introducing new players to the game with, or without, a rules change.  We need an Intro Box.  Would it hurt to have a more basic, $20 Super Intro Set that comes with stripped down rules, a fold up paper map, and a lot of cardboard counters?  I don't think it would.  I understand that not everyone sees it that way, though.  I understand that a lot of people see 'cardboard counters' and think 'cheap'. 

I think this might have been mentioned upstream before, but has anyone looked at Paizo's Bestiary Boxes? It's about $45, you get over 300 pawns, with nice art, you get *at least* one of every monster in the Bestiary of "Huge" size or smaller and then 35 bases to mount them on. (They only expect you to use what you need, not mount all of them.)
Heck, look at the Arkham line of games from FFG. All the investigators are just thick cardboard pawns.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #257 on: 18 March 2017, 00:08:01 »
I see Scythe goes for $90, Abaddon for about $30, Weta's GKR Heavy Hitters box set requires $99 on Kickstarter, it's about $30-50 for the Hawken card game sets, so there's a range of price points. Not sure it's a question of price so much as perceived value for money.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #258 on: 18 March 2017, 00:24:20 »
I remember when the last Box Set came out, several people were whining that they didn't get one, because other people had bought 2-3 copies of it.   ::)  Some were "Old" players doing the whining also, while some were "New".  I guess CGL getting money is a "Bad Thing" unless certain people are allowed to give it to them?   ;D

I was one of MANY that took advantage of the BattleShop deal, where you buy 2 Box Sets (for a slight discount I think?), and you got a 3rd set of the minis for free.  Sure, I've got all the other Box Sets, but I wanted to support CGL.  I guess now I'm somehow a "Thief" of some sort, because I was "Greedy" and bought 2 of the Box Sets for myself?   ::)

I can remember "Back In the Day", when you could always find a Box Set (2nd or 3rd Edition) on the shelves, but that was many years ago, and things have changed Considerably since then.  As others have said, CGL is doing what they can, and I'm sure everyone from Randall on down WANTS a new Box Set in stores ALL the Time. As frustrating as it is for us Fans, it's Probably MORE so for Randall and the gang.   :-\

I don't blame anyone for buying the boxed set. If the product is good value to you, spend your money. I do scratch my head at people buying six of them, but ultimately the product would be the thing to blame. My thought was more if new players are having a hard time getting their hands on it, and the box is particularly attractive to existing players, then maybe the product itself should be re-tooled. If they're just making it, to sell it, then mission accomplished. But if it's made to introduce new players then maybe it's missing the mark.

As other people have mentioned there's a new starter set allegedly in the works which may address many of the perceived issues.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #259 on: 18 March 2017, 05:16:39 »
I find the reality that even the fans here can't reach any form of concensus telling.

"CGL should do more" is, I suppose, a consensus, but there's too many fracture lines in the opinions expressed here on what that "more" should be.

It depends.

The game - as it is - works. It works well. The fact it has lasted so long with minimal changes shows this.

But at the same time, it doesn't seem to be bringing in many players and it is surviving on the backs of the Old Guard. Tastes have changed and the current gaming crowd appears more casual and more fickle. MWDA was a good game...but I think the RNG nature of the sets worked against it to a degree. Sure, there was the excitement of seeing what you got, but people also like to know what they are buying.

Part of expanding BattleTech is having a gateway into the game. In todays market - that does mean a ready to play set with simple rules and flashy visuals - aka minis. It means engaging players imaginations. It means having bad guys and good guys.

Getting rid of the Jaguars was, from this point of view, a mistake. Love them or loathe them, whether you think they were painted too simplistically, too black and white, handed the stupid stick or whatever, the problem is that they served a purpose within the game. They were "Bad Guys". They could be resurrected of course but could they fulfil the same role?

Could the rules do with simplification? For an introductory set? Yes. The game is, in many ways, too slow. Part of this is with the nature of the games....crit seeking with multiple low damage weapons?

For my part, I understand this. I prefer playing the Clans. Why? It isn't just that I like trying to put myself in an alien mindset - it's that the games are quicker. I like the high Tech and lethality of Clan weapons, I like the different feel that brings to the faction. And I like that the Clans are evolving into the faction with quirky vehicles and units. I'm waiting now for Improved QuadVees and Vectored Thrust HoverTanks from the Horses as they lose more and more Mech production, LAMs and ProtoLAMs from the Ravens and lets not forget a new BattleMech scale Horse - a Battlerider - for ProtoMechs to control ride into battle.

Crit seeking has it's place....but to get players into the game, that means that the game probably has to become more lethal. Quicker. Especially for a starter set. And it likely means you'd have to rejig rules surrounding aspects such as heat management, and C3 networks. The game works, but for todays market, it is slow.

But again - how would that affect existing players?

The Starter set from what I understand was great....except for its cost. 24 minis allowed players to set up a playing field and get stuck in straight away. But many established players also saw it as a cheap source of minis. And while that is great, it also meant those sets didn't do what they were supposed to. Act as a gateway into the game.

What can be done?
Well, a starter set does need minis. The number and type depend on what you want from the set. There are argument for one on one and Lance on Lance and Star on Lance or combined arms or whatever.....

Personally....any new Starter Set should be priced accordingly. There are games these days whose starter sets sell for far more than the price asked for by CGL. Yes - some of those are extortionate, but people still seem to pay.

I think the models should reflect that price point. More DA style minis instead of the existing models. That way, you can get away with fewer minis, but still have a visually appealing game as well. Especially if you went the DA combined arms approach and included infantry, battlearmour and vehicles as well. The units chosen should be simple, with few weapons or critseekers, no need for major heat management and no tech which slows play down too much

A universe guide is a good addition, and should be kept. Emphasising the factions and their differences would also be an idea. Homogenity is simple, but differences provide flavour and identity. Factions should tend to have unique Mechs and vehicles of their own designs.  The rules - especially for a starter set - should be simplified. Record sheets and lookup charts should be colourful and eye catching. Aspects such as determining LOS, range modifiers, etc should be looked at...

But again....all of this costs money. Requires investment. And may not pan out. Starter sets should not be structured to appeal to established player to the point they are willing to buy 5 or 6 sets for cheap minis.....but neither can they be so expensive that new players can't join in. Maybe the Starter Set should include minis for training Mechs such as a Chameleon rather than a battlefield unit. Or a different scale than the advanced game. Should the game go for a BF2 or Alpha Strike style rules, keep the existing set or move them into an Advanced/Duelling style game?




« Last Edit: 18 March 2017, 05:24:09 by Talen5000 »
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #260 on: 18 March 2017, 07:32:46 »
You will never convince me that the rules aren't too complicated.  But that's me.  I recognize that a lot of existing fans really like the rules as they are and I do not, despite appearances, want to deny those fans the game they enjoy.  Looking at competing games, though, I (personally) have to believe that that complication is (at least) part of it.  What is the solution?  I don't know.  I would say that someone at CGL might take a look at reframing Total Warfare as Advanced Battletech and reworking the most basic, introductory rules to cut away some of the detail.  Do we really need so many target and movement modifiers for a basic-level game?  I would say no, but that decision isn't mine to make.

To be honest, I really miss Levels. I've been thinking about it for a year or two now... Total Warfare is an awesome product and series, but it's impossible for one edition to "do everything." In the case of Total Warfare, it does a terrific job of bringing everything under "one roof": it integrates Aerotech and CityTech and infantry and artillery and Maximum Tech and Battlemechs and campaigns and tournament rules and...

It's basically the universal theory of Battletech—a Rosetta Stone for all those different rules and expansions and spinoffs and supplements and systems that have accumulated over the years. It is perfect for vets looking for a consistent, coherent one-stop shop, but it's not great for new players or for casual players. That's what Levels used to do... Level 1 was just the starter box, Level 2 was tournament rules and the master rulebook, Level 3 was experimental, optional stuff. Total Warfare had to drop Levels (they didn't make sense with TW's "kitchen sink" approach). But Levels were really good for new players and people that just play casually with family and friends.

Does anyone else really miss Levels? I know that it would contradict the TW approach, and I really want the TW approach to continue to be available (and Alpha Strike, for that matter), but it would be great to have a "Basic Battletech" as well. Half the modifiers, a quarter of the options, but still the same rules at the end of the day.

But I agree with everyone else. Ultimately, what I really want is for BTech to stay in print (including a box set!). Catalyst has done an amazing job with Battletech and my suggestions are really just over minor details. Sometimes the echobox of the internet can make our heartfelt applause for CGL sound like boos and jeers, but really we are so passionate about the future of Battletech because CGL has inspired us to be so invested and committed to it.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2017, 07:40:11 by Achtung Minen! »

ActionButler

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #261 on: 18 March 2017, 08:27:10 »
*with apologies for the cascade of quotes and replies....*

I don't think you need focus groups for a game this size, just outside playtesters. 

Playtesters is probably what I should have said instead of focus groups.  Again, my complete absence of of game designing experience should not surprise anyone at this point.

I guess now I'm somehow a "Thief" of some sort, because I was "Greedy" and bought 2 of the Box Sets for myself?   ::)

[copper] Moderator hat time... lets not go down the path of accusing people of being 'thieves' or accusing people or accusing people of being 'thieves'.  Thanks, guys.   [copper]

I think this might have been mentioned upstream before, but has anyone looked at Paizo's Bestiary Boxes?

That sounds awesome.  I'm going to take a look at that.

I see Scythe goes for $90, Abaddon for about $30, Weta's GKR Heavy Hitters box set requires $99 on Kickstarter, it's about $30-50 for the Hawken card game sets, so there's a range of price points. Not sure it's a question of price so much as perceived value for money.

That comes back around to 'what is Battletech?'  If Battletech wants to be a relatively closed system like Abaddon and Scythe (as I understand them to be), then yeah, a $60 box set is a great price point.  If Battletech wants to be an infinitely expanding and customizable tabletop mini game, where 90% of the available miniatures are not available in the basic box, is that still a good deal? 

Does anyone else really miss Levels?

Yes.  I do, at least.

What about this?  What about a $20 option that basically presents the Quick-Start Rules as a physical purchase?  An actual book, a folded paper map (or maps), and some cardboard-mounted counters (pawns?) for mechs, vees, and infantry.

It scratches the basic Battletech itch.  It is the same game, but reduces a ton of record keeping.  Far fewer modifiers, no heat scale on the record sheets, and a very limited-scope introduction to the universe of Battletech. 

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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #262 on: 18 March 2017, 08:47:46 »
*What about this?  What about a $20 option that basically presents the Quick-Start Rules as a physical purchase?  An actual book, a folded paper map (or maps), and some cardboard-mounted counters (pawns?) for mechs, vees, and infantry.

It scratches the basic Battletech itch.  It is the same game, but reduces a ton of record keeping.  Far fewer modifiers, no heat scale on the record sheets, and a very limited-scope introduction to the universe of Battletech.

It sounds good, but it comes down to the same problem....

To attract the gamers to today, it looks like some minis needs to be included. Would cardboard cut outs - no matter what the quality, appeal? Even Monopoly has its figures.
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Dubble_g

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #263 on: 18 March 2017, 09:03:07 »
That comes back around to 'what is Battletech?'  If Battletech wants to be a relatively closed system like Abaddon and Scythe (as I understand them to be), then yeah, a $60 box set is a great price point.  If Battletech wants to be an infinitely expanding and customizable tabletop mini game, where 90% of the available miniatures are not available in the basic box, is that still a good deal? 

Not sure I follow your line of thinking there my friend, or how it connects to my point about perceived value for money. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong:

Consumers are evidently prepared to pay north of 60 bucks for a tabletop game. To me, that suggests that it is not the price in and of itself which should be the determining factor of what goes into the intro box, but whether the content of the box is attractive to consumers.

Now, as to whether or not the intro box should be a self contained game or not, my vote is yes. For 20, 40, 60 or 90 dollars or whatever, players should get everything they need to play the game. All other rules, miniatures, setting sourcebooks should absolutely not be required. Whether or not to expand should be up to the player.
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Azakael

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #264 on: 18 March 2017, 10:09:44 »
It sounds good, but it comes down to the same problem....

To attract the gamers to today, it looks like some minis needs to be included. Would cardboard cut outs - no matter what the quality, appeal? Even Monopoly has its figures.

Eldritch Horror, Arkham Horror, and Dead of Winter would like to have a word with you...
(Seriously, the Dead of Winter pawns are great.)
To attract the gamers today, solid gameplay is needed.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #265 on: 18 March 2017, 10:50:25 »
What about this?  What about a $20 option that basically presents the Quick-Start Rules as a physical purchase?  An actual book, a folded paper map (or maps), and some cardboard-mounted counters (pawns?) for mechs, vees, and infantry.

It scratches the basic Battletech itch.  It is the same game, but reduces a ton of record keeping.  Far fewer modifiers, no heat scale on the record sheets, and a very limited-scope introduction to the universe of Battletech.

I also like that idea, but I think I agree that it does need plastic minis. Those minis are an instant sell for me and probably a lot of new players as well. The most recent plastics (the Intro Box and the 8 lance packs) are awesome and I picked up all of them (and am eager to buy more if new models come out!).

But the intro box doesn't absolutely need 24 models... it could do fine with just eight. And just 'Mechs in the intro rules... no need to include vehicles, infantry etc. The core game will always be about big stompy 'Mechs battling it out.

As for making the game quicker, perhaps set the intro box in 3050 so you can use Clans vs Inner Sphere. As Talen5000 said, Clan tech speeds up the game massively because it is much more deady. A lot of the time spent in a Battletech game is not in movement and maneuver (one of the most visually dynamic parts of the game), but in dicing for attacks and damage. If you make attacks more effective, you go a long way to fighting that sinking feeling that "nothing" has happened in the past 45 minutes of gameplay.

Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #266 on: 18 March 2017, 13:36:28 »
But the intro box doesn't absolutely need 24 models... it could do fine with just eight. And just 'Mechs in the intro rules... no need to include vehicles, infantry etc. The core game will always be about big stompy 'Mechs battling it out.

Yes....8. Or maybe include a Clan Star for advanced 8 vs 5 play. But such a set could get away with 8.

I would also recommend that any such minis be available separately, for a "reasonable" price so the boxed sets themselves aren't snapped up.

Quote
As for making the game quicker, perhaps set the intro box in 3050 so you can use Clans vs Inner Sphere. As Talen5000 said, Clan tech speeds up the game massively because it is much more deady. A lot of the time spent in a Battletech game is not in movement and maneuver (one of the most visually dynamic parts of the game), but in dicing for attacks and damage. If you make attacks more effective, you go a long way to fighting that sinking feeling that "nothing" has happened in the past 45 minutes of gameplay.

Maybe. But there could also be more accessories added to the box. Good quality cardboard mapsheets. Instead of movement dice, how about some sort of movement counter? How about a range meter marked to allow you to get the range in hexes?

Rules? Rules can be - and probably should be - simplified and the 'Mechs chosen - or designed specifically for the set - should have a limited number of weapons, limited armour, limited availability of certain technologies. It may even be worthwhile to adjust some of the basics - setting a Level 1 at 12m high instead of 6 would remove some LOS complexities for example.

Players will pay for a starter set of quality....but I think they'd expect a visually appealing game, one that isn't bogged down too much by rules or feels dragged out.
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #267 on: 18 March 2017, 13:51:29 »
I think the number of miniatures in a boxset is less important than the price per miniature. 24 for 60 bucks is 2.50/mini, 12 for 60 bucks is 5, 8 for 60 is 7.5. That's still decent value, it's cheaper than say 11 dollars per mini for a pewter lance pack from IWM, but it might be less attractive for some players. Now what about the new players, well, if the boxset has other value, like more maps or counters, then the new players still get the value while the veterans maybe pick it up the box or maybe look elsewhere to expand their collection.

Bedwyr

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #268 on: 18 March 2017, 14:09:24 »
Eldritch Horror, Arkham Horror, and Dead of Winter would like to have a word with you...
(Seriously, the Dead of Winter pawns are great.)
To attract the gamers today, solid gameplay is needed.

Yeah, cardboard is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be high quality with something like a linen finish and good rounded edges in the cut out. I could see a box set having good quality cardboard pieces combined with a limited set of (also good quality and popular) miniatures.

Make em new-seen and do some combined arms stuff (on cardboard) with them and perhaps you have a winner.
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #269 on: 18 March 2017, 14:21:05 »
Make em new-seen and do some combined arms stuff (on cardboard) with them and perhaps you have a winner.

+100 for this comment as well.
I don't know if it's just nostalgia, but you know I like Vindicators, I like Enforcers, Banshee's cool, but still the original 16 Mechs are king to me. Warhammers, Marauders, Archers, Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Hawk, etcetera. The Stinger and Wasp, less so- but the Locust, or mediums and heavies for sure.

Those newseen mechs also benefit from a modern re-design that may be more visually appealing to the new-to-Battletech gamer.