Author Topic: Box Set  (Read 49246 times)

cavingjan

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #210 on: 16 March 2017, 13:00:16 »
$100 is too low for color art of a battletech map.

One word of caution on using the 3050 clan omnis. They are IWM's best sellers consistently over the years. Any use of IWM sculpts for plastic minis would come at a very steep price.

elf25s

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #211 on: 16 March 2017, 13:37:57 »
i know its silly but i would love to see a tiny addition to the box...cardboard or cardboard stock tanks and apc markers
i know silly wish but when i was digging through some old stuff i found few cardboard prints of tanks...not sure which box set they came but it reminded me that some flavor can be had on the cheap
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #212 on: 16 March 2017, 13:46:00 »
Pretty sure that was CityTech.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #213 on: 16 March 2017, 14:18:51 »
Pretty sure that was CityTech.

I know the minis in that box (2nd edition) get a lot of flak but I thought they were great.  Yeah, I though CityTech was a good box set.
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elf25s

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #214 on: 16 March 2017, 14:32:32 »
dang...now i have to replace it...lent it out years ago somethings came back but box did not....
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #215 on: 16 March 2017, 16:02:38 »
i know its silly but i would love to see a tiny addition to the box...cardboard or cardboard stock tanks and apc markers
i know silly wish but when i was digging through some old stuff i found few cardboard prints of tanks...not sure which box set they came but it reminded me that some flavor can be had on the cheap

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Feenix74

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #216 on: 16 March 2017, 17:42:17 »
Niche business. Whenever I hear people blaming the "Catalyst suits" for bad business decisions, I laugh my keister off. Personal opinion, not a PTB, YMMV.

So what you are saying is that when the forum-ites think "Catalyst suits" their mind's eye sees:



When in reality the "Catalyst suit" is:

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

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worktroll

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #217 on: 16 March 2017, 18:03:18 »
Well, as I put it in another email, the fans seem to think CGL is more like this:



When I always think the reality is more like this:



Remember, FFG - 150 full time employees (from news reports, and people self-identifying as employees on Linkedin). CGL: something like 5 full-time employees. You can't put freelancers in charge of production.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #218 on: 16 March 2017, 18:15:33 »

A though that keeps returning to my mind is having a deck of cards included in the box set, with each card describing a quirk or special equipment/ammo. This would allow TPTB to pack more diverse gameplay with fewer minis.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #219 on: 16 March 2017, 18:53:54 »
A though that keeps returning to my mind is having a deck of cards included in the box set, with each card describing a quirk or special equipment/ammo. This would allow TPTB to pack more diverse gameplay with fewer minis.

Ok this is cool

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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #220 on: 16 March 2017, 19:12:17 »
Remember, FFG - 150 full time employees (from news reports, and people self-identifying as employees on Linkedin). CGL: something like 5 full-time employees. You can't put freelancers in charge of production.

According to Wikipedia, FFG was started by one guy, not 150.  If they've grown to 150 employees from one over the last 20 years it's probably because they're anticipating or leading market trends, and publishing well-received, high quality, successful products.

Whereas if Catalyst Games labs started with 5 people and 10 years later, still has 5 people, well . . . let's just say that I don't think a company's size, large or small, gives anyone a get-out-of-jail-free card.  Company size can temper expectations, particularly when it comes to frequency of product, but customers can certainly look for a minimum level of service, such as having the core, introductory products available, and also ask for changes that they feel would help grow the game. 
« Last Edit: 16 March 2017, 19:28:22 by UrQuanKzinti »

worktroll

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #221 on: 16 March 2017, 20:27:09 »
No arguments with that point. My bigger issue is when people say "Company X does this, CGL should do this!" without understanding the differences.

One suspects that company X couldn't have done it when they had 5 people, either.

The separate issue - how does CGL expand from its current state to a different, larger one - has many possible solutions. It's worth noting that the number of gaming companies who've managed this over any length of time are about as many as the current number of CGL employees :) GW, FFG, Pirhana, SJ - about it. FASA, SPI, Avalon Hill, Yaquinto, Flying Buffalo, where are they now?

(And no-one need point to Palladium as a "success story" ;) )
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #222 on: 16 March 2017, 20:38:11 »
(And no-one need point to Palladium as a "success story" ;) )

I honestly don't know how Palladium continues to function. I suspect that Kevin Siemba is a space wizard.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #223 on: 16 March 2017, 21:26:16 »
I honestly don't know how Palladium continues to function. I suspect that Kevin Siemba is a space wizard.

More like:



A bit mean, but... well, Kevin brought it on himself. ANYHOO....
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #224 on: 16 March 2017, 21:28:15 »
No arguments with that point. My bigger issue is when people say "Company X does this, CGL should do this!" without understanding the differences.

If a player buys two evenly-priced games of the same production value, one from a self-publisher, and one from a large corporation, and if both of these games end up being clearly broken and untested, should the player be more forgiving of the game from the self-publisher? He's a one man company, and doesn't have an army of playtesters, so that game's failure is less damning than the corporate game's failure?

I don't think any customer should be expected to sympathize with a company, large or small.  The average joe (or jane) just wants value for money, they want a fun game, that they're happy to share with friends and they don't want to feel ripped off.  I think it is the tendency of fans who are attached to certain games or companies, to sympathize with that company and defend it, and this is no more apparent than in the video-game space- but for the average customer this is not the case, nor should it be, because I don't think it's healthy consumerism.

So in that regard, I think customers asking for the company behind their game to be "more like X" is perfectly fine. Aim high, and inspire the company to aim high as well. If the company can't achieve that, then what alternative can they deliver?

But either way it's better to aim high and miss the mark than to aim low and nail it.

« Last Edit: 16 March 2017, 21:30:43 by UrQuanKzinti »

Bedwyr

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #225 on: 16 March 2017, 21:36:00 »
But either way it's better to aim high and miss the mark than to aim low and nail it.

Personally, from a business standpoint I'd disagree. If I were publishing I'd treat the operation the same way as an indie games design company. You don't try to make the MMO. You try to make a new twist on a platformer or structure your game around one or two twists on RPGs at a smaller size. Then polish it to a fare-thee-well. I need to survive on the one smaller idea or iteration executed well because I know I can't gamble my business on a longshot production of high difficulty (this is how you get BattleCruiser 3000... another auteur disaster from the 90s).

So likewise for the tabletop production. Make sure I can execute well on a smaller idea or subset of ideas, building trust and reliability with my audience. Definitely not




:)
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worktroll

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #226 on: 16 March 2017, 21:41:34 »
But either way it's better to aim high and miss the mark than to aim low and nail it.

You just described Leviathans, which
a) I am capable of making relevant comments on, and
b) to some extent almost broke CGL.

Certainly, since then CGL has been far less ambitious, and far more controlled when it comes to production of non-printed material. Which is no bad thing.

Would we have had Clan plastic 'Mechs had CGL either not gone into Levs, or had they not had all the production issues they did? We'll never know. Maybe Clan plastic "Mechs would have had all the problems in Levs' stead. CGL have to deal with the cards they're dealt - for example, prior to the 2008 crash it would have been financially possible to make the components outside China. Post 2008, China was the only affordable option. I can blame CGL for many things, but not the sub-prime crisis.
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #227 on: 16 March 2017, 22:27:46 »
Personally, from a business standpoint I'd disagree. If I were publishing I'd treat the operation the same way as an indie games design company. You don't try to make the MMO. You try to make a new twist on a platformer or structure your game around one or two twists on RPGs at a smaller size. Then polish it to a fare-thee-well. I need to survive on the one smaller idea or iteration executed well because I know I can't gamble my business on a longshot production of high difficulty (this is how you get BattleCruiser 3000... another auteur disaster from the 90s).

So likewise for the tabletop production. Make sure I can execute well on a smaller idea or subset of ideas, building trust and reliability with my audience. Definitely not
You just described Leviathans, which
a) I am capable of making relevant comments on, and
b) to some extent almost broke CGL.

Certainly, since then CGL has been far less ambitious, and far more controlled when it comes to production of non-printed material. Which is no bad thing.

Would we have had Clan plastic 'Mechs had CGL either not gone into Levs, or had they not had all the production issues they did? We'll never know. Maybe Clan plastic "Mechs would have had all the problems in Levs' stead. CGL have to deal with the cards they're dealt - for example, prior to the 2008 crash it would have been financially possible to make the components outside China. Post 2008, China was the only affordable option. I can blame CGL for many things, but not the sub-prime crisis.

Aiming high doesn't necessarily mean aiming for high quality.

Aiming high just means setting a lofty goal, and it can mean a lot of things, such as:
1. Consistent and regular releases
2. Having an introductory boxset that is always available
3. Great customer service
4. Clear and organized product line
5. Accessible rules

Or at the end of the day, value for money. Maybe BT hits the mark in some places, not in others.

etcetera.  As I said:
"Aim high, and inspire the company to aim high as well. If the company can't achieve that, then what alternative can they deliver?"

And both of you have brought out some existing ideas, but I don't think you need to go much further than the BT product line. The boxset for example aims for high quality with nice maps and good figures, and in that regard it's been well received by fans if no one else.  But it's perpetually out of print because the production runs are too costly.  So if they can't compete with plastic miniatures, could they reduce the quality and offer it a lower price point and have it in-print more often?

Or the core rulebook line, the idea of creating not one but SIX rulebooks. The goal of not a new rulebook, but a virtual encyclopedia-style collection of rulebooks. It's a very lofty goal and after 10 years its been achieved but also in that 10 years Battletech core rules have remained static. Is the game better for all of those rules? Are many of those advanced rules going to be experienced by the majority of the player base or would the game have been better served by a quicker-playing, streamlined Total Warfare 2nd edition? Mech Manual aims to address that in part but it's no more faster playing than any previous game.

Seems like they're aiming high just in the wrong direction.
Pushing the quicker playing game of Alpha Strike seems a good idea, in theory, but rather than just aim for quicker playing version of Battletech they also aimed to inject the complete Battletech experience. So players have a rulebook which has not one but three levels of the rules along with all the minutiae that comes with it. One can argue that if they were aiming for a quicker playing battletech game, they got it, but if they were aiming for a modern-style miniatures game, they missed it.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #228 on: 17 March 2017, 05:42:46 »
The boxset for example aims for high quality with nice maps and good figures, and in that regard it's been well received by fans if no one else.

Who, I've gleaned, represent most of the market for the Box Sets, not new players. Getting 24 'Mechs for $60 is more attractive to longtime players trying to fill out their third regiment, or whatever, than a player just starting out. For them, $60 is a pretty substantial ask. Look around the industry--the trend is toward making intro products an impulse-level buy. D&D has a $20 starter, Shadowrun went to a beginner box and an advanced box, Warmachine has a $40 starter box. Even GW tried to make Age of Sigmar accessible by releasing (very short) basic rules for free.

Yes, there are exceptions--especially if you equate BT with one of the true big-box board games like Twilight Imperium or something. But that's a much less apt comparison than the mini games. (Starts praying we don't have to rehash "what type of game is CBT" for the 4,500th time.)

Quote
But it's perpetually out of print

I realize the Beemer I wear is going to make me sound like a CGL apologist, but: this has been the vibe running through this entire thread, and it's not really true. The box set has been out of print for a combined total of a little over a year out of the last 15. The difference is that, this time, the state of affairs is dire enough to warrant a discussion (at high levels, not this thread) about what form the introductory BattleTech product should take.

Because despite the several anecdotes we've heard from newer folks upthread, BT can no longer afford (literally, afford) to win hearts and minds three or six at a time. The Intro Box in its current state has not succeeded in bringing on rafts of new players. "Yeah, because it's never available." See previous three paragraphs.

Quote
So players have a rulebook which has not one but three levels of the rules along with all the minutiae that comes with it. One can argue that if they were aiming for a quicker playing battletech game, they got it, but if they were aiming for a modern-style miniatures game, they missed it.

Ding ding ding. This is why I said upthread that my intent would not be to simply kill CBT and say AS is the sole BT system now. AS no longer what it was originally intended to be--and probably never was that, I'm learning--and it's an imperfect vehicle to "save" BT.

AS has essentially become just a faster horse. What we need is a car.

One last note: some folks have started to conflate the idea of "faster" rules with "simpler" rules, and I don't think that's quite right. Sure, BT would be faster if you reduced, say, all weapons fire from one side to a single roll. That's an extreme, but the point is that I actually don't think a super-simplified game would be any more effective in keeping players' interest than an unnecessarily complex one.

What I've been pondering on my commutes all week is how to create a BT game that's "hookier" than what we have now, takes less time on average to play, but is deep enough ("deep" not meaning thousands of pages of rules!) to maintain players' interest AND is financially successful.

Crass as it sounds, I'd settle for just the last thing. Let Chess be the perfect "minutes to learn, lifetime to master" game. I'd settle for a BattleTech line that's financially viable.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2017, 08:02:58 by Cubby »
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cavingjan

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #229 on: 17 March 2017, 06:21:36 »
What you just described is MW:DA. It ticked all of those marks. Another time jump with a massive tech advancement that renders our current units obsolete. Couple it with omnis only to reduce the mini count to something reasonable in plastic and simpler rules since you effectively reduced the weapon count too and you have yourself something that can go into the future for a while.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #230 on: 17 March 2017, 07:30:17 »
As I said upthread, I've come around to the need for streamlining the current gameplay. As I said, I think you need to balance that against making things too generic.

There's a lot of personality in the BTech fluff, but I feel it tends to get lost in tables of standardized quirks, weapon stats or pilot skills. Maybe more needs to be done to bring these front and center.

I think "hero" MechWarrior abilities and Mech abilities would be an interesting avenue to explore.

Side note, but is the constant timeline evolution really necessary? I mean Star Wars has been Star Wars for the last 40 years. The core rebels vs empire paradigm hasn't changed much in all that time. Warhammer 40k is almost as old as BTech but it's still basically "space marines kill stuff". Whereas I stop following BTech for 5 years and I have no clue what's going on.

So if the intro box is going to rewrite the rules, I'd recommend also resetting the clock. Pick the most popular timeframe and stick with it for the main game. House v House? Clan v IS? Let other periods be explored in supplements.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #231 on: 17 March 2017, 07:50:24 »
Well, if you're a miniature company, you can make money off of selling those. If you're a publishing company you need a different revenue stream. AFAIK the advancing plot is producing the products that keep the game afloat.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #232 on: 17 March 2017, 09:09:26 »
I agree that the game appears to be addicted to this model. Not sure it has to be that way though. I would've thought there was enough material in the setting to explore without rewriting it every few years.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #233 on: 17 March 2017, 09:12:35 »
The box set has been out of print for a combined total of a little over a year out of the last 15. The difference is that, this time, the state of affairs is dire enough to warrant a discussion (at high levels, not this thread) about what form the introductory BattleTech product should take.

This isn't the first time the Box Set has been out of print.  I'd say it's been more like 4 years out of the last 10.  Between the Classic Intro Box Set (2007, ten years ago) and the 25th Anniversary (2011) it was out of print for a while. The 25th Anniversary Box Set went out of print by May 2013, and the improved reprint was Feb 2014. The Feb 2014 Intro Box Set went out of print within days, and needing another print run that came out late that year.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/539948/so-waityou-cannot-buy-anymore
http://bg.battletech.com/news/battleblog/introductory-box-set-the-improved-reprint/
http://bg.battletech.com/news/news-and-announcements/introductory-box-set-reprint-lance-packs/
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #234 on: 17 March 2017, 11:29:56 »
OK, let's take this from a different perspective: it been mentioned a few times now that $60 for an intro set is a bit steep, and that a number of other games, as Cubby pointed out, have $20 buy-in introductory sets.  That doesn't seem bad to me, price-wise.

So, what could Catalyst realistically produce at that price tag? Remember, we have the rules, game pieces, artwork, writing, etc. to factor in.  If we're not talking about streamlining to a different rules set, we could use the quick start rules or introductory rules published previously, which cuts down on writing, but what else would need to be included, and can fit in that kind of budget, once you factor in production and shipping costs, plus profit margin?
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #235 on: 17 March 2017, 11:34:16 »
OK, let's take this from a different perspective: it been mentioned a few times now that $60 for an intro set is a bit steep, and that a number of other games, as Cubby pointed out, have $20 buy-in introductory sets.  That doesn't seem bad to me, price-wise.

So, what could Catalyst realistically produce at that price tag? Remember, we have the rules, game pieces, artwork, writing, etc. to factor in.  If we're not talking about streamlining to a different rules set, we could use the quick start rules or introductory rules published previously, which cuts down on writing, but what else would need to be included, and can fit in that kind of budget, once you factor in production and shipping costs, plus profit margin?

CGL's mentioned their likely plans, including a $20 intro box set.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55482.msg1279195#msg1279195

"1) New Intro Box, with the small possibility of the old box reprinted in the interim.
2) new Intro Box will be $20 with two minis and introductory game materials
3) This may not have been stated and MechCon, but should be: What we think of as the Introductory Box Set will be reworked into "BattleTech: A Game of Armored Combat" box, with price and contents comparable (but updated) to what we have now as the Introductory Box Set. So the new IBS will be something all together different (see point above)."
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UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #236 on: 17 March 2017, 11:48:30 »
Who, I've gleaned, represent most of the market for the Box Sets, not new players. Getting 24 'Mechs for $60 is more attractive to longtime players trying to fill out their third regiment, or whatever, than a player just starting out. For them, $60 is a pretty substantial ask. Look around the industry--the trend is toward making intro products an impulse-level buy. D&D has a $20 starter, Shadowrun went to a beginner box and an advanced box, Warmachine has a $40 starter box. Even GW tried to make Age of Sigmar accessible by releasing (very short) basic rules for free.

Well, there might be other factors in why the box is preferred by old rather than new players.
But if other games are offering cheaper alternatives, BT should certainly follow suit.

Ding ding ding. This is why I said upthread that my intent would not be to simply kill CBT and say AS is the sole BT system now. AS no longer what it was originally intended to be--and probably never was that, I'm learning--and it's an imperfect vehicle to "save" BT.

AS has essentially become just a faster horse. What we need is a car.

...

What I've been pondering on my commutes all week is how to create a BT game that's "hookier" than what we have now, takes less time on average to play, but is deep enough ("deep" not meaning thousands of pages of rules!) to maintain players' interest AND is financially successful.

Well from what I can gather, CGL doesn't solicit outside ideas as far as board game design goes. So even if someone in the community had a great set of rules, it's still up to someone within CGL to design that new streamlined version.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #237 on: 17 March 2017, 12:01:02 »
I agree that the game appears to be addicted to this model. Not sure it has to be that way though. I would've thought there was enough material in the setting to explore without rewriting it every few years.

Such as?
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Konrath

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #238 on: 17 March 2017, 12:21:40 »
As a new TT player, i think $60 for the introbox is the perfect price. Its not too steep. May have $20 expansions, but thats a great price. It has a ton of mini's, nice thick maps, and rules. $60 is less than most PS3 or Xbone or PC games on release. Most board games in the larger boxes are over $60 and they sell like hot cakes!

My problem was after buying the intro boxset, the alpha strike boosters for $20 had 2 mechs I already had and then 2 new ones. Have the booster packs have all new mech or additional that you didnt have before. If I want doubles I can buy a second intro boxset.

UrQuanKzinti

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #239 on: 17 March 2017, 12:23:42 »
Side note, but is the constant timeline evolution really necessary? I mean Star Wars has been Star Wars for the last 40 years. The core rebels vs empire paradigm hasn't changed much in all that time. Warhammer 40k is almost as old as BTech but it's still basically "space marines kill stuff". Whereas I stop following BTech for 5 years and I have no clue what's going on.

So if the intro box is going to rewrite the rules, I'd recommend also resetting the clock. Pick the most popular timeframe and stick with it for the main game. House v House? Clan v IS? Let other periods be explored in supplements.

I think the evolving Timeline is one of the few things that Battletech has going for it. It has worked for other games in the past, such as the CCG Legend of the 5 Rings where AEG both evolved the story and allowed tournament results in part determine how the story is moving.  The problem I think is that the base game and the current era are not in sync. The Intro box is 3025, Total Warfare is Civil-war/Jihad era and the actual story is 50-60 years later.

 

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