What mechs are a great idea but really poor implimentation/comparison?

[phoenixalpha]

So I was looking at the Daikyu and thought.. it's almost a better Marauder 3R.... but fails pretty much on every level. Its faster, but with the fragility of an XL. It has better damage rating than the Marauder, but only if every weapon hits and hits with a full spread. It has better heat dispersal, but only just, it has better armour, but then again only just. So its a better armoured, faster, heavier hitting Marauder 3R

But you can get nearly 2.5 Marauders for the price of a Daikyu and BV wise...  its 250 points cheaper than a Daikyu.

So on paper the Daikyu is a better mech, but is it worth it....

What other mechs are better on paper than actual in the field.

[Paul]

Nice topic.

I'd say the Thunderhawk. 3 GRs and all that armor seems awesome, but the combo of a nearly guaranteed GR explosion with an XL engine generally means they're surprisingly easy to remove. And it's that arm GR that's often the first to go, quickly followed by the adjacent torso.
TRO3058 is a bit of a 'boring 100 tonner' book anyway, but the T-Hawk tends to die a lot faster than Devastators and Pillagers. Let's lump the Nightstar in there as well. It's like FASA did an office contest about 2GR(+) top-range assaults and then printed all entries it got.

Excalibur from the same book. Swift heavy with excellent long range weaponry in an SLDF sized army seems plausible, but the 7 tons of armor, along with the XL engine and GR/ammo makes it a very desirable target to take out by the enemy. You might have a company of Flashman screening your company of Excaliburs, but your opponent's companies of Warhammers and Archers can reach out and wreck an Excalibur rapidly.

[monbvol]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

I've lost entirely too many, even in city fights to find them to be all that they are cracked up to be.

[BrianDavion]

I'm going to note mech cost isn't terriably relevant in a world where the bottleneck is transport capacity not money

[Hellraiser]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

I've lost entirely too many, even in city fights to find them to be all that they are cracked up to be.

See I'm the opposite, the OG 9B has always done great by me.
The 9A/9A1 is different, the added armor loss is too much but the basic model works well.
Now, I'm also not running it out in the mid field across the way from a bunch of LRM Carriers either, I screen it w/ other units & keep it concealed as it advances.
I've taken real pleasure using it to rip open Zombie-Awesomes by not letting them see me clearly till I'm right on top of them.

[BrianDavion]

I've taken real pleasure using it to rip open Zombie-Awesomes by not letting them see me clearly till I'm right on top of them.

... Ardan, is that you? :)

[Hellraiser]

Hehe, 
I didn't say I didn't get the idea from Ardan/Patrick & some books in 1988 :)
Just that I liked repeating it over the years. 

[Lance Leader]

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

[Hellraiser]

  The Fireball.

Agreed, for the same 4 tons you could have 3 Medium Lasers & a Small Pulse Laser for AI work.

[Prospernia]

The Urbie:  it's not very good in a city.

The Vulcan:  great against infantry, but 90% of the time, it's facing other mechs.

The Catapult, the Arrow, any mech designed as support.   It does the same job a simple tank can do, but at five times the cost.

[Starfury]

The Quickdraw. A fast moving 60 tonner with rear firing guns. If you're going to skirmish, make sure you point all of your guns in one direction. You'll live longer.

The Hatchetman (at least until the 3060s)
Don't mount guns on your melee weapon arm. Make sure you have more then one ton of ammo for your main gun. Put double heat sinks in your mech if you're going to use energy weapons as your backup.

The Jackal. A fast moving energy sniper is great, but make sure you give your mech double heat sinks so you can fire the main gun every turn. I understand you're Marik, but don't take 11 years to realize you made a mistake.

The Falcon. A 30 ton medium, heavily armored scout hunter is nice, but don't put rear firing MGs on a mech with less firepower then what it hunts.

The Assassin.  Please don't keep making fast mechs with no guns. It hurts.

The Cyclops-Here's a hint. If you're going to build a command mech, armor it up.

The Shadow Hawk-A jack of all trades needs to be able to actually be one. Don't make variants that are worse then the main model, and please stop using SRM-2s. They do nothing to help your damage output. The 5M is a nice start, but add more LRM ammo I'd you're going to give it a bigger launcher. 

The Bombardier: Why?

[Natasha Kerensky]

Original AS7-D Atlas.  With only an LRM-20 to hit anything beyond 270 meters, the Atlas fails the “as powerful as possible” criterion that Alex Kerensky laid down for it, especially in combination with a 54kph top speed, which ensures that better-armed medium troopers can stay outside its bubble of death until crippled.  Only works situationally in LOS-restrictive terrain or artificially small map boards.

[garhkal]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

Are there any other mechs that suffer the same issue??

Agreed, for the same 4 tons you could have 3 Medium Lasers & a Small Pulse Laser for AI work.

OR a LOT of small pulses, to tear into ba..

The Hatchetman (at least until the 3060s)
Don't mount guns on your melee weapon arm. Make sure you have more then one ton of ammo for your main gun. Put double heat sinks in your mech if you're going to use energy weapons as your backup.

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's fine if you put one weapon in the same arm as a melee weapon, preferably a long-range weapon that you wouldn't want to use at hatchet-range in the first place.  Helps keep you from having a blind spot in your side arc.  The real issue is when the arm gets packed with guns that greatly outperform the hatchet, like the AX-1N's three medium lasers.

[SteelRaven]

Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.

Mauler, 24 tons for maybe 8 damage. JagerMech 12 tons + ammo that could have been devoted to armor and heat sinks. ect.

I get it, It has some crazy reach ... but 2 damage? Less than a small laser? Not for more tonnage than a LRM 10 or a Large Laser.   

[Charistoph]

The Quickdraw. A fast moving 60 tonner with rear firing guns. If you're going to skirmish, make sure you point all of your guns in one direction. You'll live longer.

I was going to say the Quickdraw, but mainly because its fluffed as a replacement for the Rifleman.

A Skirmisher being used to replace Snipers/AA units...  There's too much whiskey to tango that foxtrot.

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

Pretty much.  It's a speedy scout, and makes for a great racing chassis, but the Komodo and Vulcan 5T is far better suited for taking out BA.

[Psycho]

Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.   

My thought was the Ryoken II. Definitely part of the AC/2 brigade, with 4 LBXs. It does claim to be used as anti-air and anti-vehicle, which has some merit. 75 tons of Clan tech (including an XL) to do that though? Seems like a waste of resources to me. Then they made sure to give it hands, because native Rasalhague pilots like to engage in physical attacks... in a 'Mech exclusively armed with LRMs and LB2Xs. Something's not right there.

[Kithran]

[snip]
The Catapult, the Arrow, any mech designed as support.   It does the same job a simple tank can do, but at five times the cost.

Except keep close enough to mechs to provide support over rough terrain. Especially when you look at the speed of the support vehicles

[monbvol]

Are there any other mechs that suffer the same issue??

Id honestly say anything that can't move at least 5/8 or 6/9 should be able to fire past 9/12 hexes.  Even jungle/city fighters.  Because all too often I don't see the bubble of doom working out the way it really should.

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

Yeah I could forgive this on the Hatchetman if it were bigger and one Medium laser thus less of a big deal.

[ColBosch]

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

The hatchet used to be purely a fluff thing with no game effect, not even as a club. I do agree that once it got rules, they should've moved the ML out of that arm.

[abou]

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

To be fair, when the Fireball was first created the rules were different: the Streak SRM-2 used to be able to equip infernos.

[SteelRaven]

My thought was the Ryoken II. Definitely part of the AC/2 brigade, with 4 LBXs. It does claim to be used as anti-air and anti-vehicle, which has some merit. 75 tons of Clan tech (including an XL) to do that though? Seems like a waste of resources to me. Then they made sure to give it hands, because native Rasalhague pilots like to engage in physical attacks... in a 'Mech exclusively armed with LRMs and LB2Xs. Something's not right there.

Yeah, the Ryoken II is the first and most obvious example of WK's weird obsession with AC/2 in a game that they also wanted to center around melee. The later Storm Raider being the absolute worst in almost every aspect.

[Charistoph]

To be fair, when the Fireball was first created the rules were different: the Streak SRM-2 used to be able to equip infernos.

Even the fluff says that the Fireball was woefully ill-equipped for the job.  Even though Streak-2s could carry Infernos, only an idiot would allow their Infantry to be destroyed by them.  Infernos had no direct affect on Infantry (Conventional or BA), and would only set the hex on fire.  From there, the fire the Infernos created (the only way for Infernos to hurt BA in 1992) required that the unit end their Movement Phase in a hex that was on fire.  Technically speaking, if the the hex is put on fire AFTER the Movement Phase, it wouldn't directly affect them, so they can get out.  This didn't change till the Master Rules where fires lit in the Attack Phase could destroy Infantry on an 8+.

And that's even assuming that both optional rules for Infernos AND Fire were agreed to be played in the first place.

Even if Streak-2s were allowed Infernos today, it takes 3 Infernos hitting to do ANYTHING to the average Battle Armor, and 6 if they're carrying Fire-Resistant Armor.  The standard warheads are just better in this case, and they're not that good.

[JadeHellbringer]

I'm invoking my admin-powers to slightly alter the subject (I can do that, it's awesome to be mad with power!), and I'm going to throw in a vehicle. I know, I know, madness.

We know the story to the Magi, we know it's the product of bad defense-contractor shenanigans and SLDF spending-on-nothing gone awry, but at the end of the day... ever REALLY look at one? Like, what it is, what it does, what it DOESN'T do from a battlefield perspective? Never mind that it never should have been purchased, what it really brings? Because while a tough little IFV/crowd control unit sounds like a handy thing to have around...

+Three medium lasers, all in different arcs, with no ability to ever bring more than one to bear on a target.

+Total lack of a turret- hope those rioters are nice enough to stay in front of the vehicle where the MGs are.

+Expensive fusion engine for a unit designed for defensive roles (and thus not likely straying far from supply/fuel lines)

+SEVENTY ****** TONS. It weighs as much as an Archer for a fraction of the usefulness. And can't use small vehicle bays.

+No built-in infantry compartment. Figure an IFV could use some extra oomph? Tough shit.

+Seriously, an engine that weighs around what a Phoenix Hawk does, to cart around a mishmash of lasers to no real purpose.

Want to have some fun? Try building this 30 tons smaller. Don't change a thing other than the tonnage, and as a result the engine size. It's kinda hilarious actually.

[Kit deSummersville]

I'd say the Thunderhawk.

I have a rough draft of that book and originally it had DHS. I have no idea why they removed them.

[ColBosch]

We know the story to the Magi, we know it's the product of bad defense-contractor shenanigans and SLDF spending-on-nothing gone awry, but at the end of the day... ever REALLY look at one? Like, what it is, what it does, what it DOESN'T do from a battlefield perspective? Never mind that it never should have been purchased, what it really brings? Because while a tough little IFV/crowd control unit sounds like a handy thing to have around...

It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

[Fat Guy]

How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

[SteelRaven]

It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

Think it's more someone was bad at designing game units rather than some in universe meta commentary. Kind of like the Charger, it feels like someone just decided to build a unit around a large engine and laughed.

[ColBosch]

Think it's more someone was bad at designing game units rather than some in universe meta commentary. Kind of like the Charger, it feels like someone just decided to build a unit around a large engine and laughed.

I don't disagree.

[garhkal]

It's fine if you put one weapon in the same arm as a melee weapon, preferably a long-range weapon that you wouldn't want to use at hatchet-range in the first place.  Helps keep you from having a blind spot in your side arc.  The real issue is when the arm gets packed with guns that greatly outperform the hatchet, like the AX-1N's three medium lasers.

Hence why i called out MLS..  Two of my own designs, have 45 tonners, with a reg ppc, or LRM5 in the same arm as the hatchet, so it can contribute firing as it closes into melee.

How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

Agreed.  IMO ANY mech with LRMs (or acs), which has only ONE ton of ammo, giving it less than 10 shots per launcher/AC, is very stupidly designed.