Marauder 4X- Game Changer or Dead End?

[Colt Ward]

The Marauder 4X entered the timeline as a experimental design right as the focus of the Inner Sphere went to the War of 3039.  Produced on Wallis, the design tested prototype DHS (could not fit in a engine), prototype endo-steel, and the Blazer Cannons.  Blazers are themselves interesting for that period as they would appear to be a effort to get a headcapper with greater range and freedom from limited ammo constraints.  Of special note in the League which was plagued with PPC supply problems.

But after the War of 3039 (per the retcon) we started to get a trickle of TRO3050 designs being produced among the Houses.  Which include full up DHS that can fit in the engine- though I imagine there were a few Panther owners that wished they could get prototype DHS to replace some of their singles.

Could the design been a game changer in 3039 if mass produced?

[Greatclub]

... So that's where the 9M and 9M2 come from.

[Liam's Ghost]

Are we talking as is, or are we assuming it's using perfected technology?

I think it would have been a viable design if it had lasted long enough to get perfected heat sinks and structure, but I wouldn't call it game changing. In general I feel like the meta for heavy mechs with the new technology was focusing on longer ranged weapons. And Free Worlds League designers were possibly concerned that a medium ranged fighter with average mobility was at risk of having to ride out one or more salvoes of fire from competing designs before could even get close enough to respond.

(Or they just thought it wasn't fancy enough. They did make the 5M variant after all).

[glitterboy2098]

the marauder itself? not really a game changer.

proto-DHS had potential for some big developments in IS warfare had they come around a few years earlier. quite a few designs used in the 4th succession war could have benefited from the few extra points of cooling they could give, (even without doing weapons refits on designs that already were devoting lots of mass towards SHS to cover their heat), and that hadn't really changed by 3039. and yes i brought up the 4th succession war, because the earliest examples of them were on Hoff in 3022, and the first batches of LRIP (low rate initial production) models showed up by 3028 or so (the capcon stole a few shipments going between the Lyrans to the Davions in order to build the BJ-3X and deploy it in 3030.)

so if the development had progressed just a little faster (perhaps had the Wolfs Dragoon's not raided Hoff in 3022 and derailed the program) The FedCom could conceivably had deployed them operationally in the 4th succession war, giving them an even bigger edge over the CapCon and Combine. and they would have been far more widespread in the FedCom forces by 3039, instead of just the occasional refit.

the blazer had been around for some time at that point.. but it never really caught on despite its punch. probably because of its high heat cost.

[SCC]

the marauder itself? not really a game changer.

proto-DHS had potential for some big developments in IS warfare had they come around a few years earlier. quite a few designs used in the 4th succession war could have benefited from the few extra points of cooling they could give, (even without doing weapons refits on designs that already were devoting lots of mass towards SHS to cover their heat), and that hadn't really changed by 3039. and yes i brought up the 4th succession war, because the earliest examples of them were on Hoff in 3022, and the first batches of LRIP (low rate initial production) models showed up by 3028 or so (the capcon stole a few shipments going between the Lyrans to the Davions in order to build the BJ-3X and deploy it in 3030.)

so if the development had progressed just a little faster (perhaps had the Wolfs Dragoon's not raided Hoff in 3022 and derailed the program) The FedCom could conceivably had deployed them operationally in the 4th succession war, giving them an even bigger edge over the CapCon and Combine. and they would have been far more widespread in the FedCom forces by 3039, instead of just the occasional refit.

the blazer had been around for some time at that point.. but it never really caught on despite its punch. probably because of its high heat cost.

Except the FedCom states DID have them in something like mass production, this bit from Sarna basically explains everything:

Fourteenth battle

In 3028, Barton's Regiment of the McCarron's Armored Cavalry mercenary unit staged a quick and narrow objective raid against the Kincaid Defiance Industries plant on the North Whitman continent of Hesperus II that was successful despite heavy resistance from the Blackhearts and the Twenty-sixth Lyran Guards, combined with relentless aerospace fighter attacks.[63] The official version was that KDI's owner Simon Kincaid was a black market dealer who had taken several millions C-bills from McCarron's Armored Cavalry but failed to deliver the promised goods, invoking the wrath of the notorious mercenary unit and thus provoking this grudge raid against his firm.[63] The truth, which is not publicly known, is that Kincaid's firm was secretly building prototype Double Heat Sinks for the Federated Suns (made possible by the FedCom Accords). Kincaid had embezzled a significant share of the production and sold it to the Capellans. When the Lyran Intelligence Corps threatened to uncover his activities, he delayed their investigation long enough to arrange for his safe extraction in a staged raid, providing the Confederation with the blueprints in return. It is implied that Kincaid provided the means by which the attacking DropShips could safely approach the heavily guarded world.[64]

It's really quite dumb, as This Was Easier On The Tabletop comes to it:

"No new activity, yes" the Colonel agreed as we strode past a small convoy of cargo trucks trundling down in the other direction and I very carefully made sure the autopilot kept us on a nice straight line and didn't walk us into them. "But remember that even before you showed up, the Federated Suns had been not quite openly investing a lot of time and effort to recreate Freezers, from Hoff in the 3020s onwards" Ardan reminded me. "Kincaid Defiance Industries were already subcontracted to build the finalized prototypes for field use, we just gave them the data, quietly, to upgrade to full production of the ultimate Star League version … after Katrina's people found the mole you had warned us about of course. Can you believe it was the CEO himself, Simon Kincaid".

"The CEO? Seriously? Why? Was he a deep cover Maskirovka agent or something?"

"Nothing so clever. Apparently the Capellans just offered him a lot of money".

I think my silence served as a decent enough 'Flat What' to that statement.

"So … he had a license to print money and customers in the AFFS and LCAF who would want every single unit he could build from now until forever … and he sold out to the Capellans?"

[Greatclub]

I think his "payment" was killing a FWL officer who'd earned Kincaid's ire somehow.

"money can never be worth enough"


The 4X wasn't a game changer because it took the extra heat capacity and frittered it away by installing even more heat-inefficient weapons beyond that capacity, headcappers or not.

now if they'd installed pDHS on a standard marauder it would be a game-changer. Or installed pDHS while replacing the dorsal gun with a blazer for a short range bracket. That would be close to a game changer

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The BJ-3 was the first new mech in the Inner Sphere produced with double heatsinks, right?  It only entered in to production in 3042, three years after the MAD-4X.  I don't think that the Marauder would have made much of a splash.

[SteelRaven]

The 4X itself obviously didn't go anywhere but elements of it can be seen in later Marik Marauders after the technology improved such as the 9M and 9M2.

Not every design goes somewhere but Battletech has a problem with keeping a design around forever with a few exceptions. The 4X and the other SW Prototypes are a stepping stone rather than a benchmark.

[glitterboy2098]

The BJ-3 was the first new mech in the Inner Sphere produced with double heatsinks, right?  It only entered in to production in 3042, three years after the MAD-4X.  I don't think that the Marauder would have made much of a splash.

BJ-3X used 3 "double strength" heat sinks (aka prototype heatsinks) and came out in 3030. the BJ-3 with the full DHS was a follow on 12 years later.

[SCC]

The BJ-3 was the first new mech in the Inner Sphere produced with double heatsinks, right?  It only entered in to production in 3042, three years after the MAD-4X.  I don't think that the Marauder would have made much of a splash.

Nope, that mess with pDHS I mentioned above? Caused by a real life mess up and a line in TRO: 3050 or somewhere else giving the Capallens DHS mounting Cataphract's or something in 4SW, so whatever design that is is the first 'mass production' design to mount pDHS

[glitterboy2098]

Nope, that mess with pDHS I mentioned above? Caused by a real life mess up and a line in TRO: 3050 or somewhere else giving the Capallens DHS mounting Cataphract's or something in 4SW, so whatever design that is is the first 'mass production' design to mount pDHS

no it was the BJ-3 that caused the issues.
the battlepack: Fourth Succession War introduced the BJ-3 Blackjack, with full DHS. and also used it in a scenario set in 3030 (Morgan H-D's raid of Sian, specifically) the BJ-3 in the battlepack was fluffed as being the very first mech with the rediscovered double heat sinks technology. according to Sarna the BJ-3 had been included in the slightly older 4th Succession Wars Scenarios Volume One, though since i don't have that one i can't vouch for that, but i know it appeared in the battlepack.

so many years later after Catalyst took over, TPTB later decided to change the introdate for the BJ-3 to 3042, as part of their reworking of the introdates for recovered technologies like DHS. this however left the established use of the BJ-3 at the tail end of the 4th succession war hanging, so they wrote up the BJ-3X as an earlier version of the BJ-3 that made use of the prototype-DHS rules they'd introduced in XTRO succession wars Vol 1 (and which they reprinted in Historical: War of 3039). the BJ-3X got its official mention in TRO: 3039 and then was again mentioned in TRO Succession wars.

which slightly retconned the story in the McCarron's Armored Cavalry (scenario pack) that you describes above. (thank's btw, i hadn't known that detail! had to hunt to find the sarna page to get the source though) about how the Capcon's supply came from illicit deals with Kincaid Defiance Industries on Hesperus II, replacing the standard DHS with protoDHS.
though in my digging around Sarna, i also found mention of the short story Proprietary that was published on Battlecorps, which was about that raid and the deal.

[Alexander Knight]

For the -4X it was more than just the prototype gear.  The various quirks would also have made it a rather unpopular machine and not likely to be adopted.

[RifleMech]

The situation with prototype double heat sinks is actually more problematic that stated. 

The prototype heat sinks seen on Hoff in 3022 were originally double-strength heat sinks that only took one critical slot. There's also the entry in TechManual, and other books using the same write up, that mention a more compact double heat sink that was used in the 3030s. More compact sounds like the DSHS which would have been a good fit for the BJ-3 Blackjack. Only XTRO: Succession Wars retconned the DSHS out of existence.

Now, the only DHS available in that time period, for the IS, are DHS (Freezers) which are functionally identical to SLDF prototype double heat sinks (DHS-P), which take 3 critical slots. And instead of the BJ-3 Blackjack being used, and impressing Hanse Davion in 3029, we have the BJ-3X which isn't as impressive.

And then we have TRO:3055's Bombard entry. It says there are still original Bombards equipped with 3039-vintage Freezers. Only its record sheet shows it doesn't have crit space for Freezers. DSHS would be a good fit here too only the RS shows single heat sinks.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I suspect that, if the MAD-4X had ever gotten past its prototype growing pains and picked up standard DHS and endo steel, it would have been an absolute beast of a 'Mech.

[SteelRaven]

For the -4X it was more than just the prototype gear.  The various quirks would also have made it a rather unpopular machine and not likely to be adopted.

The quirks may have been unique to the 4X just for being the prototype. All the same; if it was stellar from the word go, it wouldn't have been a nearly forgotten prototype.

[SCC]

The situation with prototype double heat sinks is actually more problematic that stated. 

The prototype heat sinks seen on Hoff in 3022 were originally double-strength heat sinks that only took one critical slot. There's also the entry in TechManual, and other books using the same write up, that mention a more compact double heat sink that was used in the 3030s. More compact sounds like the DSHS which would have been a good fit for the BJ-3 Blackjack. Only XTRO: Succession Wars retconned the DSHS out of existence.

Now, the only DHS available in that time period, for the IS, are DHS (Freezers) which are functionally identical to SLDF prototype double heat sinks (DHS-P), which take 3 critical slots. And instead of the BJ-3 Blackjack being used, and impressing Hanse Davion in 3029, we have the BJ-3X which isn't as impressive.

And then we have TRO:3055's Bombard entry. It says there are still original Bombards equipped with 3039-vintage Freezers. Only its record sheet shows it doesn't have crit space for Freezers. DSHS would be a good fit here too only the RS shows single heat sinks.

Prety sure that at this time DSHS are no longer canon.

[Agathos]

Any Marauder without a dorsal gun is ipso facto a dead end.

[Starfury]

It's a dead end. The 4X is too short ranged and undersunk in comparison to any of its late 3040 and 3050 compatriots. The quad ER Large Laser/Streak SRM-6 successor requires a ton of heat juggling, and really doesn't come into its own until the dual Heavy PPCs/Streak 6 variant comes online

Now a Marauder with a blazer in place of the AC/5? That has potential.

[Minemech]

It's a dead end. The 4X is too short ranged and undersunk in comparison to any of its late 3040 and 3050 compatriots. The quad ER Large Laser/Streak SRM-6 successor requires a ton of heat juggling, and really doesn't come into its own until the dual Heavy PPCs/Streak 6 variant comes online

Now a Marauder with a blazer in place of the AC/5? That has potential.

The plain 9M upgrades very well with Clan tech that is already available to the League and even on one of its iconic assaults. The 9M itself was a decent upgrade. 

[RifleMech]

Prety sure that at this time DSHS are no longer canon.

That's the point. They used to be and they worked for the BJ-3 and would work on the Bombard. We still have references to them but we don't have them. Instead we're given old Star League era prototypes that are three times as bulky.

[Prospernia]

Back in the day, I created a, "Macross", variant with two small-lasers and lots of jump-jets; don't remember how I designed though; maybe I reduced the armor.