Upgraded or one off ships better?

[Sjhernan3060]

As my on going warship obsession continues I am curious about specially modified warships like the:

Ancestral Home a Texas class modified by clan coyote

The quick silver mongoose a Du Shi Wang upgraded by the mongeese

The mckennas pride held in trust by all clans ( right?)

The first two are noted has having upgraded weapons and armor so I am
Curious if the upgrades would provide a clear difference in effectiveness?

Was the McKenna also upgraded?

Do we have any official stats on any of them?

[Colt Ward]

AFAIK, Naval weapons have no difference between IS & Clan . . . for naval scale, I THINK the Ravens invented some new armor (Ferro-Lam?).  Some of those older Hegemony or Star League era ships would have older armor.  The Clans would also add lithium batteries to some classes as well.  Heck, some have single heat sinks . . .

Some of the one-off ships become a class of upgrades.  I think that is the backstory on the Liberators but its been a while since I looked at them closely.

The Du Shi Wang is in Wars of Rieving I think, but I never looked closely to see if it was updated or not.  Further, even if there is a RS in that book, unless it has a date associated with the RS (say 3050+?) you have no way of knowing if that is the ship's original configuration, Clan Mongoose version, post Clan type weapon invention Clan Mongoose version, Jaguar mothball version, or Society secret refit.  Though if it mounts Clan weapons for the standard then you can rule out CapCon original or Klondike era re-activation.

[marauder648]

The Quicksilver Mongoose is a HUGE improvement over the 'ol DSW.  Its actually got guns.  The DSW is criminally undergunned, sure its tough but she has firepower weaker than a Sovetskii soyuz.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quicksilver_Mongoose

has the armament for the Quicksilver Mongoose and she's a VERY formidable ship.

With the Ancestral Home we don't know what the 'Yotes did to her but they did something.

[Colt Ward]

Okay, so the question is then was that the Mongoose, Jaguar or Society build?

[Kit deSummersville]

Okay, so the question is then was that the Mongoose, Jaguar or Society build?

The Mongoose build. The Jaguar build was the same, just with lots of holes.

[Sjhernan3060]

Zing!

Did any one claim it yet?

[Kit deSummersville]

Zing!

Did any one claim it yet?

What happened after the Wars of Reaving are a deep mystery....

[Weirdo]

Quicksilver Mongoose only served Clan Mongoose, never the Jags, and definitely not the Society. It was destroyed LONG before the Wars of Reaving ever happened. And they very specifically said destroyed, not disabled or crippled. Also, this is the Jaguars we're talking about doing the killing. I highly doubt there was anything left to claim.

Also, the stats and sheet are in ED: Golden Century, not WoR.

[Jellico]

The Quicksilver Mongoose is a HUGE improvement over the 'ol DSW.  Its actually got guns.  The DSW is criminally undergunned, sure its tough but she has firepower weaker than a Sovetskii soyuz.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quicksilver_Mongoose

has the armament for the Quicksilver Mongoose and she's a VERY formidable ship.

She has a maximum salvo of about 200 points in a world of 300 point ships.

Worse it is all forward, just asking to have her targeting and control systems critted out. She is a target for most cruisers in the game.

[Colt Ward]

Quicksilver Mongoose only served Clan Mongoose, never the Jags, and definitely not the Society. It was destroyed LONG before the Wars of Reaving ever happened. And they very specifically said destroyed, not disabled or crippled. Also, this is the Jaguars we're talking about doing the killing. I highly doubt there was anything left to claim.

Also, the stats and sheet are in ED: Golden Century, not WoR.

Hm, then perhaps I was thinking of another ship the Society ended up using.  If its the Jaguars- knowing what was in their fleet later- makes you wonder what they lost taking it down.  Could also explain why they ended up building the Fredasas- lost too many patrol ships.

[Sjhernan3060]

Quicksilver Mongoose only served Clan Mongoose, never the Jags, and definitely not the Society. It was destroyed LONG before the Wars of Reaving ever happened. And they very specifically said destroyed, not disabled or crippled. Also, this is the Jaguars we're talking about doing the killing. I highly doubt there was anything left to claim.

Also, the stats and sheet are in ED: Golden Century, not WoR.

Per Sarna it states that it was mothballed not destroyed. Is this incorrect?

[Liam's Ghost]

Per Sarna it states that it was mothballed not destroyed. Is this incorrect?

TRO 3075 indicates it was mothballed after being "almost destroyed". ED Golden Century indicates it was crippled in the final naval battle of the Mongoose absorption.

Taking those two bits into account, I think the correct answer would be "potentially recoverable, but probably not worth the effort."

[Weirdo]

What he said. Just because a megaton-ish of mostly melted alloys kinda looks like a WarShip if you squint a lot while on drugs, doesn't make it worth salvaging.

If its the Jaguars- knowing what was in their fleet later- makes you wonder what they lost taking it down.

A Mckenna.

[glitterboy2098]

the Ancestral Home never got a write up, so we don't really know what it could do. we know that prior to the WoR, it had been modified with an unspecified amount of extra armor and weapons. probably by the simple expedient of sacrificing some of the Texas class's cargo capacity.

during the WoR, it was further modified with some sort of experimental technology of unknown nature, which let it weather attacks from a Carrack, Essex, Vincent Mk.42, and Sovetskii Soyuz without taking much damage, and later withstand the broadside from a Leviathan Prime.

sadly we don't know what the Leviathan Prime has either, but we can safely assume it is equal or superior to the Leviathan II used by the Ghost Bears.

[JPArbiter]

There are also inevitable downgrades.  Otably trying to keep warships afloat in the succession wars. I can also think of one example in a relativly modern era, the Kerensky’s Blues. The Blue Star Irregulars had a terrible time maintaining that boat, i bet the had to remove a lot of clan tech goodies to try and cheapen the maintaince cost.

Heck, i wonder what kind of refits the Blakists gave the invincible as well

[Alexander Knight]

Heck, i wonder what kind of refits the Blakists gave the invincible as well

A L-F Battery.

[Sjhernan3060]

What he said. Just because a megaton-ish of mostly melted alloys kinda looks like a WarShip if you squint a lot while on drugs, doesn't make it worth salvaging.

A Mckenna.

I wonder if it was that bad off and in typically jag fashion they turned their nose up at it.....

So based on the short write the quicksilver was great for quick strike but did not have the take down power to stand up against a bruiser?

[Liam's Ghost]

I wonder if it was that bad off and in typically jag fashion they turned their nose up at it.....

Well, it did trade fire with a McKenna first, so it couldn't have been in good shape before it was disabled unless the Jaguars were... just.... horrible gunners.

Personally I assume the Jaguars kept it rather than scrapping it just so it could serve as a warning to others.

(though that said, it wouldn't have surprised me if it had turned up active during the wars of reaving. Little tidbits like old mothballed warships have a tendency of coming up again later in the battletech universe)

[Kit deSummersville]

The Jaguars most likely 'traded it in' for something in better shape out of the Clans' collective mothballed fleet in exchange for some minor concessions to replace their lost battleship.

[Colt Ward]

You do not think it became Grendel's arm?

[Kit deSummersville]

You do not think it became Grendel's arm?

They have the Rememberance, they don't need a trophy deep in space.

[Colt Ward]

 . . . talking about the Jaguars who carved a whole mountain(s?) to resemble their totem?

[Sjhernan3060]

The Jaguars most likely 'traded it in' for something in better shape out of the Clans' collective mothballed fleet in exchange for some minor concessions to replace their lost battleship.

Tell me more of this clan wide moth balled fleet. Is it made of derelicts and sub par/ 2nd line quality ships?

Is it one location?

[Weirdo]

You'd be amazed how little information there is about it.

And before you get excited, it's widely regarded as empty these days. NOT a source for free ships.

[Colt Ward]

The Clan's mothball fleet is a GM/writer's preserve . . . until that Capellan ship rolled out it was thought to be SL with a sprinkling of RWR . . . any class that went on the Exodus could have some in place.  Each of the original Pentagon worlds had SL caches/mothball fleets . . . they would be the logical place to have them carry over when the Clans took over.  Major Clans may have had some in their capitals- for instance any stored ships the Jaguars claimed might have been at Huntress before Op Revival- the Clans reactivated warships and jumpships for the invasion.  If there had been any there when Serpent came calling I would have expected it to be mentioned.

For instance, I cannot remember if its another 5 or 3 Kimagures that were supposed to be in there as mentioned in Conqueror fluff.  We know all the Yorks were pulled out of mothballs b/c they started to produce new hulls.

[Dragon Cat]

What happened after the Wars of Reaving are a deep mystery....

If that story ever gets told I look forward to it

[Sjhernan3060]

What about the com guard Cameron class flagship would that have been the equal of the clan refit or somewhere in between that and the “ disappointing and sluggish” original?

[Liam's Ghost]

What about the com guard Cameron class flagship would that have been the equal of the clan refit or somewhere in between that and the “ disappointing and sluggish” original?

The Clan refit basically is the disappointing and sluggish original. The sum total difference is four fighter bays, a lithium fusion battery, and more advanced armor (providing the same amount of protection for an insignificant weight savings).

I'm almost certain that the Invisible Truth got a lithium fusion battery, and it may or may not have Kraken missile launchers (depending on how you want to interpret an impossible passage from one of the novels). So really, it's already there.

Most of the clan refits are like that. New coat of paint armor, lithium fusion battery, bump the aerospace bays to fit clan organization, call it a day.

[Jellico]

And smaller crews, though few ships reduce the number of crew compartments.

[Wrangler]

Quicksilver Mongoose only served Clan Mongoose, never the Jags, and definitely not the Society. It was destroyed LONG before the Wars of Reaving ever happened. And they very specifically said destroyed, not disabled or crippled. Also, this is the Jaguars we're talking about doing the killing. I highly doubt there was anything left to claim.

Where this information about it's destruction?

[Kit deSummersville]

Where this information about it's destruction?

The Quicksilver Mongoose is described in TRO 3075, Era Digest: Golden Century and TRO Golden Century. Anything else is just conjecture.

[Weirdo]

At least one WarShip in TRO Golden Century!

Not confirmed, because Kit is the Precentor of Lies!

ED Golden Century is pretty clear. Crippled, and drifted out of the system. The odds of anyone finding it are literally astronomical. The odds of said locating party having the resources AND will to recover it are similarly low given how seriously Battletech interstellar powers take their interstellar bits(translation: not at all). Unless the writers want to pull off another Invincible...it's gone forever.

[glitterboy2098]

At least one WarShip in TRO Golden Century!

Not confirmed, because Kit is the Precentor of Lies!

ED Golden Century is pretty clear. Crippled, and drifted out of the system. The odds of anyone finding it are literally astronomical. The odds of said locating party having the resources AND will to recover it are similarly low given how seriously Battletech interstellar powers take their interstellar bits(translation: not at all). Unless the writers want to pull off another Invincible...it's gone forever.

soo.. Quicksilver Mongoose, Society Flagship confirmed?  :))

[Kit deSummersville]

soo.. Quicksilver Mongoose, Society Flagship confirmed?  :))

Definitely not during the Golden Century!

[Sjhernan3060]

Wait is if thought that TRO golden century was still on the drawing board? Also with the pounding that the jag navy took why wouldn’t they try to save the mongoose for a rainy day?

[Kit deSummersville]

Wait is if thought that TRO golden century was still on the drawing board? Also with the pounding that the jag navy took why wouldn’t they try to save the mongoose for a rainy day?

Because they used it as a core charge to get some replacement ships from the Clan mothballs. Besides, it's like saving that totaled car for a rainy day.

[Weirdo]

Wait is if thought that TRO golden century was still on the drawing board? Also with the pounding that the jag navy took why wouldn’t they try to save the mongoose for a rainy day?

Firstly, the Jags have never been a strong industrial power, relying on combat to get the resources they need. They may not have the facilities to repair that ship, and they certainly don't have any friends willing to help them do it.

The second reason is psychological, and far more important. Clan Smoke Jaguar is the ultimate distillation of the Might Makes Right philosophy of the Clans, and the Mongooses were defeated. Therefore they and everything they made is Wrong. Individual warriors might be more pragmatic, but there's no way the  Clan's leadership would allow the Mongoose to be put back into service, same way they refused to use any of the Mongoose bloodlines they now owned.

It would still be their property though, so they'd fight bitterly to makesure nobody else used the ship either.

[Colt Ward]

But it would be drifting in the black for nearly a hundred years before a Society survey team managed to detect it with the jumpship that had been following its outbound course . . . how would the Jaguars know . . . *que Twilight Zone intro*

Yeah, I know I am feeding conspiracy trolls!

[Liam's Ghost]

TRO 3075 indicates that it was in mothballs. I assume the Jaguars snagged it and towed it back just to make sure nobody else could grab it.

[Weirdo]

 Wait, what?

[Liam's Ghost]

Wait, what?

The specific quote:

"Clan records show that it served Clan Mongoose until its demise, being mothballed after its near destruction
by the Smoke Jaguars. It now resides in the Strana Mechty system."

Though I'm guessing its state is less "ready to return to service" and more like the Oriskany before it was disposed of. So decrepit as to be a reasonable place to depict a movie scene set in hell.

[glitterboy2098]

But it would be drifting in the black for nearly a hundred years before a Society survey team managed to detect it with the jumpship that had been following its outbound course . . . how would the Jaguars know . . . *que Twilight Zone intro*

Yeah, I know I am feeding conspiracy trolls!

well i was just joking.. riffing on how during the WoR/Jihad the Society and WoB kept pulling out hardware that was thought long lost or abandoned. (or in the societies case.. represented tech the clans had turned their backs on centuries before)

the idea that the Society went and found an old warship written off as dead, and then did a quick repair job, well it is a stretch for them but we know they have warships (the Peregrine class for example, and they did something to the Ancestral Home.) something as big as a the Mongoose might only have been repaired up to the point of "she'll fly and fight but she's held together with duct tape" but that could still create a lot of chaos during the WoR.

without official word though, it is just a fun speculation.

[Colt Ward]

Hm . . . fast . . . decent armor?  Wonder what it would take to turn her into a fire ship?

[Kit deSummersville]

Hm . . . fast . . . decent armor?  Wonder what it would take to turn her into a fire ship?

Well, you'd need a lot of oxidizer....

[Colt Ward]

or lots of OS nuclear tipped capital ship missiles . . . fly right into the oncoming warship & dropship invasion fleet and go Robotech missile swarm

[Liam's Ghost]

well i was just joking.. riffing on how during the WoR/Jihad the Society and WoB kept pulling out hardware that was thought long lost or abandoned. (or in the societies case.. represented tech the clans had turned their backs on centuries before)

the idea that the Society went and found an old warship written off as dead, and then did a quick repair job, well it is a stretch for them but we know they have warships (the Peregrine class for example, and they did something to the Ancestral Home.) something as big as a the Mongoose might only have been repaired up to the point of "she'll fly and fight but she's held together with duct tape" but that could still create a lot of chaos during the WoR.

without official word though, it is just a fun speculation.

I honestly assumed we'd see the Quicksilver Mongoose again precisely because it was mentioned in TRO 3075. I was surprised it didn't turn up during the Wars of Reaving.

I mean, I don't think it should. Based on what we know it seems like you'd be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to get that girl running again (as bad as the Taurians with the Vandenberg, if the Vandenberg had traded fire with a McKenna before it got mothballed and neglected for centuries). But I kinda expected it.

[Colt Ward]

Which is why I said fire ship . . . all it has to do is survive to get close.  I mean if the Emerald Talon can become a orbit to surface missile . . .

[Liam's Ghost]

No capital missile tubes, you'd have to install them to get nuclear capability, which means repairing the systems enough to make sure it can use them. Which could mean a whole lot of work.

Unless you decide to use it to ram somebody. Then it just has to move under its own power fast enough to do so.

[Alexander Knight]

Nah, Crippled ship leading a rag-tag group of Jaguar refugees post Serpent!

[Luciora]

By your command!

Nah, Crippled ship leading a rag-tag group of Jaguar refugees post Serpent!

[Sjhernan3060]

What the farragut that became the Blakest flagship? Was that restored to original spec or was it modified in some way?

[Weirdo]

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything other than a stock Farragut.

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything resembling a stock Farragut.

[Sjhernan3060]

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything other than a stock Farragut.

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything resembling a stock Farragut.

Lol I bet! If they did upgrade it what tech could it have had? Was the Justice pretty much based on the Terran system? I don’t recall it being in other actions.

[Liam's Ghost]

I wouldn't be surprised if it got a Lithium Fusion battery.

[Colt Ward]

Thought the fluff was they found the Fairyguts in the Ruins of Gabriel?

[marauder648]

Thought the fluff was they found the Fairyguts in the Ruins of Gabriel?

Whilst that's never been confirmed, that would make the most sense.

[grimlock1]

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything other than a stock Farragut.

There is no information at all to indicate it is anything resembling a stock Farragut.

::scowl::  I hope your neighbor plays their bag pipes at 2 am. 


OFF KEY!

[Colt Ward]

He was just setting the canon perimeters.

[Weirdo]

::scowl::  I hope your neighbor plays their bag pipes at 2 am. 


OFF KEY!

I own a kilt, and poor ears. 8)

[mbear]

Hm . . . fast . . . decent armor?  Wonder what it would take to turn her into a fire ship?

Well, you'd need a lot of oxidizer....

Nah. Just a nuclear warhead or two.