Author Topic: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...  (Read 238237 times)

Kitsune413

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Sarna has one. I've been compiling my own summary, but it's very incomplete.

I keep trying to put together scenarios for my friends to play through. :) But its hard with the way the information is presented.

On another side note about the previous conversation, in the founders future section the first paragraph for diamond sharks they admit that they had some of their own trouble with the society. I would think that the great majority of information presented in the book is factual and true. Despite being recovered from various sources. The 'In Character' and 'faction perception' writing style simply allows the writers to retcon what they want by saying that the authors and information were wrong. Its a good easy out. So I'm not sure that the accounts would be false. :)
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rebs

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I believe we've found dragons there that take the form of Adders.  Its only a matter of time before they return with technology that is on par with what we view as magic.  Working HPGs, iATMs, Nova CEWS, WarShips, and likely some kind of strange new weapons and genetics we have no clue about.

Another good answer.   ;D

Unfortunately for them, the Clans killed their metaphorical brains during the Wars of Reaving, and they have to regrow that organ.  Maybe the IS has a chance to keep up.
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Working HPGs aren't going to be a part of it. Between Bonfire and ER3145, its pretty clear that the problem's not the HPGs but hyperspace itself
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Jaim Magnus

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Well, I'll agree that the problem isn't with the HPGs themselves at least.
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wellspring

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I keep trying to put together scenarios for my friends to play through. :) But its hard with the way the information is presented.

On another side note about the previous conversation, in the founders future section the first paragraph for diamond sharks they admit that they had some of their own trouble with the society. I would think that the great majority of information presented in the book is factual and true. Despite being recovered from various sources. The 'In Character' and 'faction perception' writing style simply allows the writers to retcon what they want by saying that the authors and information were wrong. Its a good easy out. So I'm not sure that the accounts would be false. :)

I mostly agree. But Ben has been pretty clear that he left some intentional plot bombs in there, stuff that in retrospect we'll say, "ah HA! He was planning this all along!" when we go back and re-read it.

In some cases, I think it will take the form of phrasing that's literally true, but where if we make the logical assumptions we'll be mislead. And other cases where stuff is left out entirely. In that sense, the Sharks aren't above a few judicious lies, but also are sensible enough to tell an almost-entirely-true version of events. An account that's easily falsified is counterproductive.

The fun comes from trying to predict whether Ben will zig or zag. A game we can't win, but that's fun to play.

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I mostly agree. But Ben has been pretty clear that he left some intentional plot bombs in there, stuff that in retrospect we'll say, "ah HA! He was planning this all along!" when we go back and re-read it.

In some cases, I think it will take the form of phrasing that's literally true, but where if we make the logical assumptions we'll be mislead. And other cases where stuff is left out entirely. In that sense, the Sharks aren't above a few judicious lies, but also are sensible enough to tell an almost-entirely-true version of events. An account that's easily falsified is counterproductive.

The fun comes from trying to predict whether Ben will zig or zag. A game we can't win, but that's fun to play.

Curious a game where the only winning move is not to play...

How about a nice game of Chess?
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Bergie

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[Skimmed previous conversations, so if this is covered I apologize]

My Take on Clan Sea Fox

The Khanates have seem to have their own territories, with the 'borders' of them being fairly porous to their neighbours.  The ilKhanate can move wherever it likes, and probably is centred on the Republic of the Sphere territories and/or the Clan OZ's in order to capitalize on the most markets and to defend Twycross, Itabiana, and Trondheim.

Each nation has probably 1-3 enclaves, consisting of areas no bigger than a small continent (ie: Australia or smaller), in the various Inner Sphere States which they use for local manufacturing, spare parts for the Khanates, and raising of civilians and sibkos.  After all, while being spacebourne has its advantages, it is ALWAYS better to spend SOME time on an actual world for the human body.

Each Khanate is organized similar to a Galaxy, with Aimag's taking the place of Clusters.  As such, there is probably an average of 5 Aimags to each Khanate, each with the equivalent of 1 Cluster of troops on hand.  Each of these Aimag's would probably form a Transport Binary, centred around the CargoShip of the Aimag.  Alpha Aimag, the "Keshik" Aimag, would have an ArcShip flagship instead of the usual (presumably smaller) CargoShip.

Each Cluster attached to the Aimag would probably consist of 3 Binaries/Trinaries of Aerospace fighters and 2-3 Supernova's of Ground Forces.  These are probably 1 Supernova of mechs/Battle armour, and one of armoured vehicles/Infantry.

As such, Clan Sea Fox PROBABLY has:

20 CargoShips
5 ArcShips
25 Clusters of Troops

Not bad for a group with only 3 planets of their own!
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jimdigris

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I would estimate 7 arcships.  Each is a converted Potemkin, and they ended the Jihad with four.  Then, they traded with the Ravens for three more.

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That would be 8 ArcShips then as they received four not three.

I have no idea how the individual clusters are organized, but the Tiburon entry points to the Aimags having multiple clusters each.

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That would be 8 ArcShips then as they received four not three.

Three Potemkins and a Volga.

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The three ships we've seen in fiction were a Potemkin ArcShip, a former SovSoy Cruiser CargoShip, and a Cargo ship with the traits of a Potemkin, but never stated as such.
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Kitsune413

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I love how Antoinette Labov personifies the Sea Fox clan in appearance.

Maybe our Khan and Sakhan used to. But I like that general aesthetic. Spending as much time as they do on ships I like the ethereal feel to them.
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Kitsune413

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Wellspring and I have been talking in a few different threads and going through some books.

So re-reading about Clan Sea Fox in Klondike, its really impressive that the clan chooses to stay honorable and not further itself by bashing on another clan. Or holding any petty grudges against anyone really.
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Wellspring and I have been talking in a few different threads and going through some books.

So re-reading about Clan Sea Fox in Klondike, its really impressive that the clan chooses to stay honorable and not further itself by bashing on another clan. Or holding any petty grudges against anyone really.

I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line
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Kitsune413

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I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line

The honor bit actually has more to do with them not jumping at the chance to absorb other clans when the opportunity presented itself. They didn't want to strengthen themselves through another clans misfortune... Otherwise, though, I agree with you.
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wellspring

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I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line

The honor bit actually has more to do with them not jumping at the chance to absorb other clans when the opportunity presented itself. They didn't want to strengthen themselves through another clans misfortune... Otherwise, though, I agree with you.

Actually I think you're both right. Grudges are very expensive, first. And, second, big flashy takeovers are dangerous-- just ask the Star Adders. Third, I find it very telling that the Sharks are the only ones to under-state the size and experience of their Touman; with that in mind, growing in loud and proud way is really counter-productive because you make yourself a target. Finally, yeah, perhaps a sense of morality is at play. The Founder didn't create Clan Kerensky and leave it at that-- the whole idea was for twenty clans to compete with one another, grow strong through competition, and keep one another honest. Every time a clan goes away, that vision is eroded.

You know what else? Anyone who's been in a hostile takeover knows that preserving your corporate culture afterwards is very hard. Sometimes you take over the other company, and yet they somehow win. Or as someone nicely put it a few months back, you are what you eat.

Now that I think of it, there's lots of good reasons to grow organically rather than by Absorption.

PS I do think that the Sea Foxes took a very different lesson from the Wolverine Annihilation than everyone else. Realistically, the Sea Foxes weren't all that different in ideology from the Wolverines. After a moment of "that could have been us", instead of setting their own house in order by enforcing clan orthodoxy as others did, they put their heads down and concentrated on avoiding being a target. They made themselves indispensable in clan commerce, built an economy that made them a dangerous target, avoided getting involved in politics or even calling too much attention to themselves. But still they kept their essential unique culture.

Kitsune413

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The section Ebbing Enthusiasm in field manual clans and the section before it talks about it predominantly and mentions both things. Grudges aren't profitable. But also, clan sea fox is honorable (Because the totem bows to its prey before attacking it) and takes pride in it. (though it thinks zellbrigen is kind of stupid. Honorable and practical. Odd combination)

I also enjoy the fact that when we're not eating it hard in operation revival or losing all our jumpships to the burrocks that we tend to rip enemies apart with superior warriors. In Secondline machines, or frontline machines. We've given a good accounting of ourselves since Tukayyid. (Where we did not.)
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We've given a good accounting of ourselves since Tukayyid. (Where we did not.)

I still always wonder if there was some sort of deliberate throwing of the fighting at Tukayyid. Did the Sharks gain anything
through losing there?
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Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?
I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got
the rights to his legacy..but..

Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed
retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?
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rebs

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I don't think they arranged it, as they weren't in any kind of league with Focht - that we know of.  But they allowed the Crusader portion of their Touman to to rush headlong into the battle.  The Fox Sharks have been known for employing solid battlefield strategy in the past.  Even if other Clans dislike that, the Fox Sharks do it anyway, from Klondike on up.  I don't think they arranged for the fiasco of Tukayyid so much as they simply allowed the Crusaders to die though their shortsighted plans and simplistic view of combat, with only their own dogma as comfort. 

After all, the Crusaders had been trying to reverse a lot of their more-liberal practices, so after the Diamond Sharks were able to get into revival, the true leadership of the Clan had little or no more use for them since they don't just rock the boat, they think they know better about how to navigate, and want to take over. Basically. 


edit: and yes, I have seen somewhere that the Clan's true leadership "allowed" the Crusaders to come to power for purposes of harnessing their energy and drive to get into Revival.   I forget exactly where (FM: WC?), but I would bet someone else here who knows their Fox Sharks does indeed have the page number and possible multi-sources.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2013, 07:50:07 by rebs »
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wellspring

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Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?

Angus Labov was merchant factor during Tukayyid, and he certainly moved to counter Hawker's influence. Just as Hawker pushed through his changes to the clan as "wartime emergency measures", Labov reversed many of them as emergency measures to quickly resurrect the touman.

Hawker withdrew a little after Tukayyid. He'd had exactly the force of fervent trueborn Crusaders that he'd wanted, and used the frontal attacks that he felt were especially clan-like. And had their dorsal fins handed to them.

It's perfectly possible that he'd questioned his own decisions. Equally, all those bloodnamed crusaders who died at Tukayyid were his base of support in the Clan Council. Then comes a flood of warden reservists back into the touman in their stead. In WoK, Phalen points out that an Invading Clan's khan is much more autocratic because the clan council can't monitor and vote on such a broad expanse of territory. Well, by being booted from the IS, Hawker's suddenly and firmly back under his clan council's thumb. Finally, the pre-Tukayyid challenges were military and political-- Hawker's forte. Post-Tukayyid, they were administrative and logistical. He might simply have lacked the interest and ability to handle these "details" and let power slip from his fingers as a result.

I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got the rights to his legacy..but..

Hawker did still manage the Diamond Sharks' foreign policy, even after Tukayyid. My recollection is that he organized a relief force to save the Smoke Jaguars, and Khan Vlad stopped him by challenging him to a Trial of Possession for his own genetic legacy. Hawker lost, Vlad contemptuously refused to accept him as a bondsman, and while the Sharks swore they'd regain exclusive control over the legacy, they never did.

Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?

It's common in history to blame a military disaster on domestic political opponents, traitors who ruined everything through secret acts of sabotage. Every once in a blue moon, it's even true.

I'm sure the crusaders blamed "spies and hoarders and wreckers" and such in the merchant caste, but it's really hard to put the blame anywhere but Hawker. Rebs is right, he didn't need any help being destroyed. Those were all his decisions-- changes from Diamond Shark tradition that he'd imposed-- and they were also meant as a showcase for what he would do with the rest of the clan when he came back from Tukayyid triumphant.

wellspring

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edit: and yes, I have seen somewhere that the Clan's true leadership "allowed" the Crusaders to come to power for purposes of harnessing their energy and drive to get into Revival.   I forget exactly where (FM: WC?), but I would bet someone else here who knows their Fox Sharks does indeed have the page number and possible multi-sources.

I've never seen it... but I think it's probably true. I think you and I have speculated on this in the past. Hawker was many things, but you can't deny he was as close to a Faux Smoke Jaguar as the Sharks were likely to produce. He certainly gave the Sharks a makeover that suddenly made them possible, if still unlikely, invasion participants.

I think even the Wardens knew that an invasion was inevitable. Why waste energy standing on a losing principle? If the clans are going to invade no matter what, at least let's get in on the action, maybe grab an OZ of our own, and, oh by the way, we're more likely to influence the invasion if we're part of it than if we're sulking on the sidelines.

Were the Sharks that ruthless?

Oops, almost forgot. No, I don't think they arranged Tukayyid. Hawker's decisions were entirely his own; they were meant to defy Diamond Shark customs. I think bidding in Omega was Sennet's idea, even. Which saved them. Otherwise, the crappy bidding, the poor intelligence, the bad supply lines, the dumb frontal charge, that was all Hawker. Had he won, every trueborn-but-not-bloodnamed warrior in those clusters would have gotten a Bloodname nomination eventually. The clan council would have been dominated by Crusaders for a generation. His new ideas would have been vindicated, and the reforms turned from emergency measures into state policy. But he lost, so it all fell apart. The only people he can blame are himself and the Com Guards.

But with that said, yes, the merchants really are that ruthless.

wellspring

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OK three unanswered posts in a row, I'm probably breaking some law of nature, but here goes.

Someone was saying that the Sea Foxes are honorable. I prefer to put it this way:

The Sea Foxes are "honorable".

There, much better. The Foxes are notorious for creative bidding, combined arms, breaking zellbrigen, cross-caste cooperation, trading rather than honorable combat, and demanding collateral on Trials of Possession. There's always a rationale, a legalism that lets them get away with it. The only clan that plays this fast and loose with Clan honor are the Wolves.

Now, with that said, the only example of Sea Fox honoring opponents that I have so far is from FM:WC, where the garrison Sigma Galaxy "honors" their opponents by breaking zellbrigen if they face OmniMechs (ie if they face a front line force). The argument goes a little like this:

Quote from: Rebs or Kitsune or me or some other Sea Fox
Oh no, we agree, you are really big and strong and scary. The reputation of the Seventh Nephrite Parakeets is unquestioned. We of the 23rd strike cluster are, in comparison, a mere garrison galaxy of freebirths. No doubt your boasts that any of you is worth ten of us is correct. We honor that strength by admitting that the only way we can give you a worthy contest is by forgoing the rite of Zellbrigen.

Oh, by the way, I hope you dug fox holes, because we packed artillery, too.

This only goes for Sigma Galaxy, but it really does embody the spirit of the clan. With that said, you wouldn't see this behavior from a front line cluster. The Sea Foxes aren't a clan you want to break clan honor with, because they're all pretty rigorously trained in what the clans call "dirty fighting" and what everyone else calls "war".

At their worst, the Sea Foxes are the embodiment of every cheesy clan player you've ever faced in a pickup game who found some tortuous excuse to drop clan honor like it's Jennifer Aniston. Too soon? At their best, they play by clan honor rules, but won't let that page-quoting guy in the anorak lawyer his way into walking all over them.

Kitsune413

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Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?
I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got
the rights to his legacy..but..

After the Warrior Castes failure on Takuyyid Barbara Sennet gets even more political clout and Merchant Factor Labov effectively seizes control of the clan.

Something I didn't realize lately is that Clan Diamond Shark / Sea Fox is apolitical. They tried to avoid having crusader or warden leanings. Being neutral let them sell to both sides. When the time for the invasion came they actually wanted access to Inner Sphere markets. But they also feel like their clan is what Kerensky's vision is supposed to be. All the castes working in union. This also means they severely disagreed with the more crusader minded clans opinions of the inner sphere.

Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Diamond Sea Shark Fox are diametric opposites.

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Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed
retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?

They lost a lot of really good officers. So probably not. Ian Hawker was a bit of a toy soldier. He had an alliance with one of the Jade Falcon Khans that let his Diamond Keshik participate in invasions of their worlds. He over valued his own troops so he bid lower than he should have. Though, the Sharks had done really well in any combat they came across. (Except the bid to invade. They did  ok there) But then he decided that he wanted to follow the clan way of a frontal assault.

I wonder how much would have changed if he wasn't influenced by a Jade Falcon Khan?

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Kitsune413

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Equally, all those bloodnamed crusaders who died at Tukayyid were his base of support in the Clan Council.


And maybe not even that. He didn't get the entire clans vote on whether they should invade or not and several blood named warriors were going to take him on for it. But pragmaticism since they'd be invading the inner sphere soon stayed their hand.

Barbara Sennet forwarded most of the Crusaders in the clan to harvest trials when the opportunity presented itself. But not in Alpha Galaxy, but alot of Alpha Galaxy joined the others. Cleansing the Touman.

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Then comes a flood of warden reservists back into the touman in their stead.

Who didn't get to vote...

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Hawker's suddenly and firmly back under his clan council's thumb. Finally, the pre-Tukayyid challenges were military and political-- Hawker's forte. Post-Tukayyid, they were administrative and logistical. He might simply have lacked the interest and ability to handle these "details" and let power slip from his fingers as a result.

His final quote before his "retirement" says he wasn't made for an age of peace.

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Hawker did still manage the Diamond Sharks' foreign policy, even after Tukayyid. My recollection is that he organized a relief force to save the Smoke Jaguars

Which shows how much he really liked Crusaders because there is a stiff rivalry there.

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It's common in history to blame a military disaster on domestic political opponents, traitors who ruined everything through secret acts of sabotage. Every once in a blue moon, it's even true.

I wouldn't be surprised if the trial for his genetic legacy wasn't tipped off. Or more likely, traded off.
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Kitsune413

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  There's always a rationale, a legalism that lets them get away with it.

which we haven't really seen since the wolves. I enjoy how typically hilarious the rationale is.

Quote
Now, with that said, the only example of Sea Fox honoring opponents that I have so far is from FM:WC, where the garrison Sigma Galaxy "honors" their opponents by breaking zellbrigen if they face OmniMechs (ie if they face a front line force). The argument goes a little like this:

This only goes for Sigma Galaxy, but it really does embody the spirit of the clan. With that said, you wouldn't see this behavior from a front line cluster. The Sea Foxes aren't a clan you want to break clan honor with, because they're all pretty rigorously trained in what the clans call "dirty fighting" and what everyone else calls "war".

The Foxes Whelps will treat you with the respect you treat them.

But even during the reaving when the other clans decided it was time for the sharks to go they held onto worlds using physical attacks and skirting the lines of honorable behavior, waiting for the other side to break zellbrigen. So they could hit them with everything.

I think, perhaps, Clan Sea Fox's definition of honor has nothing to do with the clans definition of honor. They are too pragmatic for that. I think it lends itself more to respecting your foe than following a code of conduct that doesn't make any sense. Then again, they usually respect their opponent enough to aerospace strafe them at the earliest opportunity.

Though it apparently doesn't stop them from making fun of a snow ravens khan on the chatterweb after a successful trial.
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Something that always kind of stood out to me about the Foxes-sharks-foxes was that, while they used the same
terms, the meant things slightly different. Their Clusters were 6 Trinary Clusters, as opposed to other Clans 3-5 Trinary
Clusters, their Galaxies were 6 Cluster Galaxies. Was this really to hide their strength? Or was it something they just
did to be different? (Think about this: a Shark Galaxy would have 36 Trinaries, while other clans would have, at most,
25 Trinaries. This means that 2 Shark Galaxies would be only 3 Trinaries short of being 3 full Galaxies for any other Clan)

Why resort to the subterfuge? Was it to hide their strength? Was it to be able to spread forces guarding their merchants
further afield?
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wellspring

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Something that always kind of stood out to me about the Foxes-sharks-foxes was that, while they used the same
terms, the meant things slightly different. Their Clusters were 6 Trinary Clusters, as opposed to other Clans 3-5 Trinary
Clusters, their Galaxies were 6 Cluster Galaxies. Was this really to hide their strength? Or was it something they just
did to be different? (Think about this: a Shark Galaxy would have 36 Trinaries, while other clans would have, at most,
25 Trinaries. This means that 2 Shark Galaxies would be only 3 Trinaries short of being 3 full Galaxies for any other Clan)

Why resort to the subterfuge? Was it to hide their strength? Was it to be able to spread forces guarding their merchants
further afield?


They did understate their overall strength, but not quite as you say.

Their six trinary clusters were for front-line and second-line galaxies only, and those had four clusters per Galaxy. Also, the additional front line Trinary consisted of a strategic command star and a support Binary. I'm assuming vehicles in the binary, right? Anyway, that's 24 Trinaries per galaxy, rather than 25 in the canonical clan Galaxy.

Garrison clusters are actually undersize; a fact that isn't really all that noticeable since garrison trinaries often deploy separately anyway. This is typical for the Clans.

The Diamond Sharks were the only clan to understate their strength, according to Stormfury's spreadsheets (which I urge you to download and go through). The Blood Spirits used canonical original Nicholas Kerensky-style Galaxies, so their force estimates are precisely correct. All other clans over-stated their strength. I'm assuming the Sea Foxes do the same?

Why? I think the Sharks prefer being quietly effective over empty bluster. When their touman was gutted, what did the Jade Falcons do? Go on the attack, of course! They had to prove to themselves and the universe that they were still mighty. The Sharks retreated, regrouped, and rebuilt. They didn't advertise, but they certainly didn't deny to themselves that they were in trouble. And they were back in no time.

I think they realize that being perceived as too strong makes them a target. It complicates bidding. It draws attention. Far better to be quietly competent. Too strong to risk picking on, but not so strong that you need to worry about them. Quiet competence, rather than bluster and braggadocio.

rebs

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They are definitely masters of the art of misdirection.  Still, I wonder what they are really up to.  I wonder about the goings on in the Chainalane Isles and the cluster that they jacked.  The shipyards there, the resources, the factions vying for power if not survival.  As well as the Clan Protectorate front store, the Twycross and Tukayyid bases and all the others too.  Quite a different faction than those who came before them.  Quantifying their holdings, their force and capabilities requires a lot more study than being a fan of the other Clans.  They keep secrets even from their selves, it seems.
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Kitsune413

  • Major
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  • Posts: 5324
  • Diamond Khanate Sakhan
Well I don't know about keeping secrets from themselves. But yes, it is kind of terrifying that we assume we are making rediculous amounts of money but have no idea what we're doing with it.

In the past they made sure their infrastructure and touman was top notch. But hopefully keeping everything in the chaineline islands contentious and at eachothers throat isn't a prelude to what we plan to do in the inner spher-... what... we are doing in the inner sphere

With the davions...
Every man lives by exchanging - Adam Smith

 

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