3050 Omnis in the Republic Era -- taking a look at the MUL

[Neufeld]

Since I heard that there has been some work on the availability of the Clan mechs in the Republic Era in the MUL, I took a look.

This is what I found (todays date 6.9.2012):

Code: [Select]

Fire Moth -- Falcon Bear Horse Raven -- -- --
Mist Lynx Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven Shark -- --
Kit Fox Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Adder Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Viper -- -- Bear Horse -- -- -- --
Ice Ferret Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- Exile
Nova Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Stormcrow Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Mad Dog -- Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Hellbringer Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- Exile
Summoner Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark Cat Exile
Timber Wolf Wolf Falcon Bear -- Raven Shark Cat Exile
Gargoyle Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- Shark -- Exile
Warhawk Wolf Falcon Bear -- Raven Shark Cat --
Executioner Wolf Falcon Bear Horse -- Shark Cat --
Dire Wolf Wolf -- -- -- Raven Shark -- Exile

Without going into detail and analyzing each omni, to me it seems like:
- The Wolves, Falcons and Exiles has too many designs available.
- The Sharks has too many of the heavies/assaults.
- The Horses has too many of the lights/mediums.
- The Cats has too few of the lights.

[Southern Coyote]

It looks fine to me with the exception of the Exiles.  If they're so strapped for Clan tech, they shouldn't have so many omnis...

[Neufeld]

It looks fine to me with the exception of the Exiles.  If they're so strapped for Clan tech, they shouldn't have so many omnis...

Well, that was my thought too. Regrading the Falcons and the C-Wolves, they have so many additional designs introduced in later TROs, so it just seems strange that they have access to nearly everything. In the case of C-Wolves, it also seems strange that their lack of omni-production would not show more.

[Southern Coyote]

Well, keep in mind that Keshiks and other high end units would try to be as Omni capable as possible.  According to FM3085, Clan Wolf's Beta Galaxy is at 100% omni rating.  So, there is either a.) a heavy influx of omnis from the WoR as the Clans pull their forces out of the HW and begin reorganizing and reassigning them or b.) some form of production somewhere that not everyone knows about. 

[Wolflord]

Well, that was my thought too. Regrading the Falcons and the C-Wolves, they have so many additional designs introduced in later TROs, so it just seems strange that they have access to nearly everything. In the case of C-Wolves, it also seems strange that their lack of omni-production would not show more.

Clearly our lack of omni production was a masterfully executed strategic deception.....................  ;D

[Istal_Devalis]

Keep in mind that there are Omnimechs out there besides the Tro3050 ones. It shouldn't be a surprise if those balance things out a bit. The Nova Cats, for instance, have a bunch of Omnis of the lower weight classes that they prefer.

[MidfieldMarauder]

Everybody should be happy because everybody gets all the Summoners they want!  :D

[Decoy]

The thing is....the MUL is "Have available" and not "Do we produce it" If you want to use the logic that "If it's on the MUL, then they must produce it", then the Clans really should stop producing all of those SLDF designs, don'tcha think? :)

[MidfieldMarauder]

The thing is....the MUL is "Have available" and not "Do we produce it" If you want to use the logic that "If it's on the MUL, then they must produce it", then the Clans really should stop producing all of those SLDF designs, don'tcha think? :)

But thanks to Trials of Possession, your production capability is also my production capability!

Right?

Right?

 :-\

[Stormfury]

Well, that was my thought too. Regrading the Falcons and the C-Wolves, they have so many additional designs introduced in later TROs, so it just seems strange that they have access to nearly everything. In the case of C-Wolves, it also seems strange that their lack of omni-production would not show more.

Having a design listed on the MUL doesn't mean you possess them in extreme quantities, just that you do have it available.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I find I stranger that everyone doesn't have everything.  You mean to tell me that neither Wolf clan has a single Fire Moth kicking around somewhere?  Damn.

[Ratwedge]

The thing is....the MUL is "Have available" and not "Do we produce it" If you want to use the logic that "If it's on the MUL, then they must produce it", then the Clans really should stop producing all of those SLDF designs, don'tcha think? :)

This.


People jumping to conclusions when we already know that several Clans trade extensively with each other, easily creating a wider range for some factions.  Lets not even get into fact some Clans fight each other more often than not and that it also helps to make a couple factions have more MUL listings than others.


Plus if any faction is a standout, its the Ravens ;).

[Maingunnery]

Lets just Blame the Sharks for this wide availability of 3050's Omnis.

[Stormfury]

And not the fact that they've been in service for centuries, are still with the Clans they share the most history in, and how the Clans are masters of salvage, repair, and recycling?

[Sid]

- The Wolves, Falcons and Exiles has too many designs available.

 ???

According to your list, the Horses have more designs available than the Exiles, just as many as the Wolves, and only one design less than the Falcons.

Then add in the fact that the Horses supplement their forces heavily with vehicles- which none of the three you listed do, as well as Protomechs- which both the Wolves and Falcons do not use anymore, and the Exiles have a limited amount as I recall.

Furthermore, the Ravens field just as many designs as the Exiles, and the Ghost Bears and Sharks field only one less design than the Exiles- and the former is noted for its heavy number of second line designs thanks to their early move to the Inner Sphere.

It doesn't seem that far off to me, aside from the fact that the Exiles possess significantly more designs than the Cats- which is the other 'Abjured' Clan that's reliant upon a Great House's hospitality- and I would suppose a merchant Clan that sells anything and everything would probably have more available.  That is, unless they merely buy designs to resell them for profit.

[Archangel]

Without going into detail and analyzing each omni, to me it seems like:
- The Wolves, Falcons and Exiles has too many designs available.

Of all the IS Clans, the Falcons have the largest BattleMech production base so it is no surprise that they deploy so many designs.  Both Wolf factions lacked large military production facilities (with the main faction losing most of their IS facilities during the Jihad when the Blakists attacked Tamar) so it is no surprise that they decide to focus most of their production on the familiar proven designs rather than risk on unproven designs.

- The Sharks has too many of the heavies/assaults.

By the Republic era most of their light/medium production tended towards post-TRO3050 designs such as the Grendel and Solitaire.  Heavier designs tend to remain relevant longer and remain a valuable commodity should they decide not to field a design and can be traded to other factions for products the Clan desires.

- The Horses has too many of the lights/mediums.

Perfectly reasonable as the Horses have always favored combined arms and mobile warfare.  Lights and mediums are far easier (and cheaper) to replace than assaults.

- The Cats has too few of the lights.

Not really surprising since they lost access to a lot of TRO3050 designs after their abjuration.  Even prior to their abjuration, they were leaning towards TRO3058 Lights and Mediums (Hankyu, Shadow Cat and Nobori-nin).  After their abjuration they had to build their military industrial infrastructure practically from scratch.

The problem with your analysis is that you are only looking at part of the whole picture.  Most of the TRO3050 designs are over 100 years old and newer designs had already begun to replace certain designs in various clans even prior to the Jihad.  Just because a Clan might deploy large numbers of a design doesn't necessary mean that they produce them.  Finally, your analysis doesn't take into consideration what post-TRO3050 designs take the place of missing designs.

[Neufeld]

Since I felt like it, I decided to add the rest to the list.
If I thought that the 3050 omnis are too common, I would say that the later designs are too rare.

Code: [Select]

Fire Moth -- Falcon Bear Horse Raven -- -- --
Mist Lynx Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven Shark -- --
Kit Fox Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Adder Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Fire Falcon -- Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- --
Arctic Cheetah -- Falcon Bear Horse -- Shark Cat -- (Note that prime has Coyote instead of Shark)
Cougar Wolf Falcon -- -- -- -- -- Exile
Hellion -- Falcon -- Horse -- Shark Cat --
=====================================================================================

The Adder, Kit Fox and Fire Moth seems to common, and it seems odd that the Cats are lacking the Mist Lynx.

Code: [Select]

Viper -- -- Bear Horse -- -- -- --
Ice Ferret Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- Exile
Nova Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Stormcrow Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Phantom Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Pouncer Wolf -- -- -- -- -- -- Exile
Battle Cobra -- Falcon --- -- -- -- -- --
Grendel -- -- -- Horse -- Shark -- --
Shadow Cat -- Falcon -- -- Raven Shark Cat -- (Note that A & B lacks republic era data)
Huntsman -- -- -- -- -- -- Cat --
Black Lanner -- Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- --
Arctic Wolf (omni) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Exile
Stooping Hawk <Homeworld only>
Crimson Langur <Homeworld only>
Coyotl <Extinct>
Arctic Wolf II -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Exile
=====================================================================================

Here I would say that the Nova and Stormcrow seems to common, and the Grendel too rare.
Note that the Battle Cobra seems to be heading for extinction, unless that Falcons have a factory.

Code: [Select]

Mad Dog -- Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark -- Exile
Hellbringer Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- -- -- Exile
Summoner Wolf Falcon Bear Horse Raven Shark Cat Exile
Timber Wolf Wolf Falcon Bear -- Raven Shark Cat Exile
Linebacker Wolf -- -- -- Raven -- -- Exile
Cauldron-Born -- -- -- Horse Raven Shark Cat --
Crossbow -- -- -- -- Raven -- -- --
Night Gyr -- Falcon -- -- -- -- -- --
Nova Cat -- -- Bear -- Raven Shark Cat Exile
Balius -- -- -- Horse -- -- -- --
Karhu -- -- Bear -- -- -- -- --
Flamberge -- Falcon -- -- -- -- -- --
Lupus <Extinct>
Woodsman <Extinct>
=====================================================================================

Summoner and Timber Wolf seems to be too common, and the Nova Cat is a big surprise.
Note that the Crossbow seems to be heading for extinction, unless that Ravens have a factory.

Code: [Select]

Gargoyle Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- Shark -- Exile
Warhawk Wolf Falcon Bear -- Raven Shark Cat --
Executioner Wolf Falcon Bear Horse -- Shark Cat --
Dire Wolf Wolf -- -- -- Raven Shark -- Exile
Naga Wolf Falcon -- Horse Raven -- -- Exile
Kingfisher -- -- Bear -- Raven Shark Cat --
Turkina Wolf Falcon -- Horse -- -- Cat --
Blood Asp -- -- -- Horse -- -- -- --
Savage Coyote Wolf -- -- Horse -- -- -- --
Deimos -- -- -- -- Raven -- -- --
=====================================================================================

Turkina for the Cats and where did all those Savage Coyotes come from?

[Savage Coyote]

Savage Coyotes:  WoR

Wolves did some trading (mega land trades for dudes and gear) with the 'yotes and before that, harvest trials.

Horses, IIRC, did some mega land trades with the 'yotes. 

In the RAT's, only the Keshiks can really get them in either clan.  And..... wait for RS3067.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Turkina for the Cats and where did all those Savage Coyotes come from?

"All those Savage Coyotes"?  For all we know there's a total of five split between the two clans.  All being on the MUL means is that the respective clans have at least one.

[Archangel]

The Adder, Kit Fox and Fire Moth seems to common, and it seems odd that the Cats are lacking the Mist Lynx.

I believe that in the Nova Cat touman the Hankyu assumes the roles normally reserved for the Mist Lynx and, per TRO3050, the Smoke Jaguars were the largest users (and the original designers) of the Mist Lynx not the Nova Cats.  The Adder has always been a popular Mech so no surprise there.
Both the Ghost Bears and Hell's Horses use the Fire Moth to rapidly deploy battle armor across the battlefield so I wouldn't be surprised if the Falcons and Ravens use it in a similar role.
The Kit Fox was the standard light Omni in the Falcon Touman and is also popular among the Ravens so no surprise there while both Wolf Clans frequently use the W configuration as a training Mech and the Horses created the newer F configuration around their HAG 20.

Here I would say that the Nova and Stormcrow seems to common, and the Grendel too rare.

I agree with the Grendel not being as widely deployed as expected especially since we are talking about a Diamond Shark Mech and TRO3050U states that it became a "common sight among several Clan front-line units."

Summoner and Timber Wolf seems to be too common, and the Nova Cat is a big surprise.

Both the Summoner and the Timber Wolf are very successful designs so it is not surprising that many Clans use them.  As far as the Nova Cat goes, its widespread usage is due to trade (Ravens, Sharks and Exiles) or salvage (Bears).

Turkina for the Cats and where did all those Savage Coyotes come from?

The Nova Cats obtained some Turkinas from the SLDF after being taken from the Smoke Jaguars but whether they got enough to qualify that they be listed in the Nova Cats is questionable.  Clan Coyote and Hell's Horses have had a good relationship after their joint operation to destroy Kindraa Smythe-Jewel so it wouldn't be a surprise to find the Coyotes trading some to the Horses and as stated the Coyotes and Wolf did have some dealings before Clan Wolf was pushed out of the Homeworlds.

[cold1]

And..... wait for RS3067.

We have been waiting for several months.  I love the homeworlds designs in that book and would enjoy seeing some upgrades and new versions.

[nckestrel]

I find I stranger that everyone doesn't have everything.  You mean to tell me that neither Wolf clan has a single Fire Moth kicking around somewhere?  Damn.

The MUL guideline is we list a unit for a faction if we have a source, or absent a source what we think, that the faction has multiple forces (regiments, clusters, etc) that have multiple of a given unit.  If only a single regiment/cluster has the unit, then we don't list it.  If we don't think a faction has it in enough numbers that any regiment/cluster would have more than one, we don't list it.
Anybody can have a single of any unit kicking around.  Even for Extinct we leave the _possibility_ that one is kicking around somewhere.
The MUL faction availiability is already pretty broad, we didn't want to "water it down" any more.  We also don't want to be a straight-jacket.  It's a guide.

[Savage Coyote]

We have been waiting for several months.  I love the homeworlds designs in that book and would enjoy seeing some upgrades and new versions.

Yes, I'm waiting too, if only so I can use my Savage Coyote out in the open and not just against MegaMek bots :(

[Dread Moores]

We have been waiting for several months.

That's nowhere near long enough of a wait for a record sheet product. There are massive production bottlenecks with them, due to much of the hand creation of said sheets. IIRC, we're still waiting on some record sheets from '75 and '85.

That's not meant as an attack towards you (or CGL, as it were), just an acknowledgement of the realities of that particular line of products.

[Istal_Devalis]

I find the Nova Cat access to the Turkina a bit wierd too, but we apparently have enough they're worth putting into our 3085 RAT. *shrug*

[Pa Weasley]

SHHHHHH! Don't look a gift Turkina in the beak.

[snewsom2997]

SO how many 3050 Omnis are in production, in the republic era, sphere side? I though the Dire Wolf Factory was smashed, during reaving (HW) and the Jihad (Qutreach), I know they are sturdy machines, but by 3150 they would have to look like some SW kit bashes. Same with several of the other 3050 Omni designs. I never got the impression that their were 1000's of Dire Wolfs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The MUL guideline is we list a unit for a faction if we have a source, or absent a source what we think, that the faction has multiple forces (regiments, clusters, etc) that have multiple of a given unit.  If only a single regiment/cluster has the unit, then we don't list it.  If we don't think a faction has it in enough numbers that any regiment/cluster would have more than one, we don't list it.
Anybody can have a single of any unit kicking around.  Even for Extinct we leave the _possibility_ that one is kicking around somewhere.
The MUL faction availiability is already pretty broad, we didn't want to "water it down" any more.  We also don't want to be a straight-jacket.  It's a guide.

Ah.  I was thinking the threshold was lower than that.

[Pa Weasley]

SO how many 3050 Omnis are in production, in the republic era, sphere side? I though the Dire Wolf Factory was smashed, during reaving (HW) and the Jihad (Qutreach), I know they are sturdy machines, but by 3150 they would have to look like some SW kit bashes. Same with several of the other 3050 Omni designs. I never got the impression that their were 1000's of Dire Wolfs.

You've hit the 1,000,000 c-bill question. We're still waiting on Objectives: The Clans to get an idea of what was still in production in the IS as of 3079. Either FR: The Clans or J:FR mentions that only 16 OmniMechs were in production in the IS as of 3079/3081. No specifics of which were still in production but myself and several others have pieced together a decent best guess. Plus there's the question of what/if any have been restarted since then.

[Diablo48]

I could have sworn the 3050 omnis were all listed as IS Clan general so they should all be around in limited numbers.

[Sartris]

I could have sworn the 3050 omnis were all listed as IS Clan general so they should all be around in limited numbers.

They are... not all configs are universally in use, but close.

[Diablo48]

They are... not all configs are universally in use, but close.

That was what I thought, and I am really not bothered by the configurations thing because these are omnis.  You can reconfigure them to carry whatever you want so long as you have the parts.

[Dragon Cat]

That was what I thought, and I am really not bothered by the configurations thing because these are omnis.  You can reconfigure them to carry whatever you want so long as you have the parts.

I always thought that was weird with MUL and other documents listing availability of individual configurations. OmniMechs can carry any weapon.  The Clans produce every weapon or trade for them to use on their designs ie they all have ATM launchers and heavy lasers.  If you have the weapon and have the Mech chassis you should access to all configurations

It can be more common in certain Clans but I think it should be down to chassis instead of configurations

[Pa Weasley]

All the 3050 omnis are still General in the Jihad era. The thinning of the herd from all the wanton destruction of Sphere-wide war and being cut off from the Homeworlds isn't reflected until the Republic era.

[Moonsword]

I always thought that was weird with MUL and other documents listing availability of individual configurations.

We track other data for the configuration (introduction data, BF stats, etc.), so we may as well list it.  There are potential edge cases to consider, too, such as equipment most factions simply don't use at all or a configuration introduced right at the end of an era that has new equipment on it.  You can see a similar situation to the latter with the Vedette V-7 - it took time for the export sales to the Republic and the FS to begin, so it's LC and merc in the Jihad since it was introduced in 3084.

And then there's the times where configurations just aren't used even though all the gear is available to and in use by everyone who uses the chassis.  That one would be available to anyone who wanted it in a logical sense but it just isn't used, so it's not listed in the MUL even though it would be absolutely possible for another chassis user to bring it into play for an engagement somewhere.  That's part of that "the MUL is not a strait-jacket" bit that nckestrel mentioned up above.

[Dragon Cat]

We track other data for the configuration (introduction data, BF stats, etc.), so we may as well list it.  There are potential edge cases to consider, too, such as equipment most factions simply don't use at all or a configuration introduced right at the end of an era that has new equipment on it.  You can see a similar situation to the latter with the Vedette V-7 - it took time for the export sales to the Republic and the FS to begin, so it's LC and merc in the Jihad since it was introduced in 3084.

And then there's the times where configurations just aren't used even though all the gear is available to and in use by everyone who uses the chassis.  That one would be available to anyone who wanted it in a logical sense but it just isn't used, so it's not listed in the MUL even though it would be absolutely possible for another chassis user to bring it into play for an engagement somewhere.  That's part of that "the MUL is not a strait-jacket" bit that nckestrel mentioned up above.

And that's why I'm not running MUL  ;D

Thanks for clearing that up  O0

[Moonsword]

Glad I could help.

[Hellraiser]

I like that the MUL lists the omni pods out by Clan.

To me it adds flavor to the "X-Clan designed Y-Weapon or Z-Configuration" first & then it slowly spread.  Just like any piece of tech.

It also takes away from the "Its an Omni, so it can do anything" arguments that don't really fit the novels or tro fluff.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It also takes away from the "Its an Omni, so it can do anything" arguments that don't really fit the novels or tro fluff.

Err...what?

[Sid]

Err...what?

Most of the time in the novels, Omnis are depicted as using stock configurations.  Even Natasha, for example, used a Dire Wolf B against Joanna after her Widowmaker was disabled earlier.

She didn't just have the techs swap some weapons around and build her a new Widowmaker.

If it was common for Clan warriors to regularly swap configs around or build their won configs in game, we'd see it a lot more often in novels too.

But we don't- so, I believe Hellraiser is saying that having a MUL saying which configs are popular with which Clan helps reflect the novels depiction of Clans typically using standardized configs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Except that most custom configurations debuted in novels.  I can't think of a single case where a 'personal' config was seen first in a TRO.  The novels (or other fiction) provide the clear majority of personal configs.
  Widowmaker, Hohiro, Prometheus, Templar Tancred, Templar Grayson, Warhawk Tara, and so forth.

[Sid]

Except that most custom configurations debuted in novels.  I can't think of a single case where a 'personal' config was seen first in a TRO.  The novels (or other fiction) provide the clear majority of personal configs.
  Widowmaker, Hohiro, Prometheus, Templar Tancred, Templar Grayson, Warhawk Tara, and so forth.

While true, those are all notable and exceptional characters- the same holds true for standard Battletechs (E.g, Wolf's Archer, Justin's Centurion, The Bounty Hunter's Marauder, Archer's Penetrator)

Standard Battlemechs aren't noted for the modular ability and to be switched from one variant to another within hours like Omnis are, however.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It just strikes me as odd to say that the fiction don't really show that omnis can be customized when the place we've seen the most customization is the fiction.  It's like arguing that the novels don't show enough 1st person POV, when they certainly show a whole lot more than sourcebooks, TROs, etc.

[Hersh67]

It just strikes me as odd to say that the fiction don't really show that omnis can be customized when the place we've seen the most customization is the fiction.  It's like arguing that the novels don't show enough 1st person POV, when they certainly show a whole lot more than sourcebooks, TROs, etc.

It is the fiction prelude in Era Digest: The Golden Century would say otherwise.  Of course, back then they were just figuring out what all an Omni could do...

[Dread Moores]

It's like arguing that the novels don't show enough 1st person POV, when they certainly show a whole lot more than sourcebooks, TROs, etc.

I don't recall very many instances of 1st person POV in most of the BT or DA novels. 3rd person omniscient, sure, but not 1st person.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Forgive me, I don't often deal in proper literary terminology.  I mean not just in-character, (plenty of Jihad fiction and sourcebooks are 'in character' documents), but narrative, where we're seeing what a character sees, getting 'in their head' and reading what they're thinking, not just reading a TRO entry or piecing the story together ourselves from multiple news articles.

[Sid]

It just strikes me as odd to say that the fiction don't really show that omnis can be customized when the place we've seen the most customization is the fiction.  It's like arguing that the novels don't show enough 1st person POV, when they certainly show a whole lot more than sourcebooks, TROs, etc.

Oh, I don't think anyone here is arguing that Omnis can't be customized. 

I think what Hellraiser is talking about when he says 'Its an Omni, so it can do anything" arguments' is the occasional time I've seen people suggest that they can personally customize every Omnimech in their force because, well, Omnis are very easy to customize.

E.g, Two Clans players square off with a mixed Trinary on Trinary.  One player is using stock configs for his 'mechs- A Timber Wolf B here, a Stormcrow C there, an Ice Ferret Prime etc. with his Elementals using 'standard' weapons.  A Point with Small lasers, another with Flamers, another with Machine guns etc.

The other player has all ten 'mechs with his own, personal configs for the Omnis.  "Timber Wolf Mega Death" and "Warhawk Ultra Death", all of them using a mix of pulse lasers and streak SRMs.  His elementals tricked out with various weapons using the 'modular' weapon mounts.

The fiction seems to be somewhere in the middle, with most Omnimechs using an established config (such as the Prime, A, B, H etc.) while the odd Omnimech (such as the Star Captain's) may have a personal, customized, loadout.

The RPG backs this up with the 'Custom Vehicle' trait if I recall correctly.

EDIT: And just to be clear, the MUL stating specific configs for each Clan shows a preference for certain configs over another, backs up that view in a sense.  It doesn't mean a Clan Star Captain can't use a personal config, or even use a personal config that matches a config not listed on the MUL.  It does seem to suggest, however, that most Clan warriors typically use established configs which are more or less popular depending on which Clan you have.

[Hellraiser]

It just strikes me as odd to say that the fiction don't really show that omnis can be customized when the place we've seen the most customization is the fiction. 

You misunderstood me AW, sorry if I wasn't clear.  Sid got what I meant.

I was saying that in the fiction we see mostly standard models, most of which have mission specialties.  Very good for a commander who needs the same mech to do Firesupport one day (MadDog-Prime) & Close Assault the next (MadDog-A)

The Custom Models tend to be rare, typically seen by higher ranking officers &/or during trials of position.  We don't see every Mechwarrior tom, dick, or harry customizing their mech every hour on the hour.

A good example of this, IIRC, is the Aiden Pryde Timberwolf.
IIRC, (its been a long time since I read it so I might not be remembering this exactly), but, in his River Crossing mission on Tukkayid he took the jump capable units from his & Marthe's unit with him.  Left his non-jumpers behind with her.  And as a Star Colonel had a custom Jumping-TimberWolf set up for himself.
Now, if all omnis are so easily customized on a whim we would not have had to see a split of those units.  He would have just ordered every single omni set up w/ its own custom JJ configuration.

[Stormfury]

To be fair, time was a pressing issue in that event.

That said, most of the 3050-era configurations that can jump have them as fixed equipment. Only Aiden's "Jinx" springs to mind as an exception.

[Øystein]

Bred for War has one of the better examples of how Omnis are used, when Phelan reconfigures all his units to run with energy weapons because the arctic temps on the battlefield on Morges allows them to run extra hot without penalty against the Falcons.

To me the whole point of an OmniMech is the adaptability it offers. You can adopt your loadout to your mission, allowing you to continue using a chasis you know well. Instead it seems to have turned into shoe-horned stocked configs that are limited to some clans, which totally defeats the whole concept. The stock configs are because some examples of popular configuartions are needed, and because showing every possible configuration opportunity is impossible, the number of record sheets needed would be insane.

The configuration of an OmniMech should, IMHO, only be limited to a) time (you carry some common variant pods with you as supplies, in case you do not have time to reconfigure your pods to new weapons) b) access to spare weapons at the time, bringing 20 of each weapon to each fight is a waste, and leaves a lot of possible salvage for the enemy if you fail.

Just my two cents,
Øystein

[Diablo48]

Bred for War has one of the better examples of how Omnis are used, when Phelan reconfigures all his units to run with energy weapons because the arctic temps on the battlefield on Morges allows them to run extra hot without penalty against the Falcons.

To me the whole point of an OmniMech is the adaptability it offers. You can adopt your loadout to your mission, allowing you to continue using a chasis you know well. Instead it seems to have turned into shoe-horned stocked configs that are limited to some clans, which totally defeats the whole concept. The stock configs are because some examples of popular configuartions are needed, and because showing every possible configuration opportunity is impossible, the number of record sheets needed would be insane.

The configuration of an OmniMech should, IMHO, only be limited to a) time (you carry some common variant pods with you as supplies, in case you do not have time to reconfigure your pods to new weapons) b) access to spare weapons at the time, bringing 20 of each weapon to each fight is a waste, and leaves a lot of possible salvage for the enemy if you fail.

Just my two cents,
Øystein

That is exactly why I think the canon omni configurations should all have been presented as unique or semi-unique from day one.  It gives players a pool of stock designs to pick from without implying omnis are limited to those configurations in some way.  Honestly, it could still be implemented on newer Clan designs or added retroactively with a piece of fluff about one of the old canon configurations by describing how the configuration became popular in the first place.

[nckestrel]

That is exactly why I think the canon omni configurations should all have been presented as unique or semi-unique from day one.  It gives players a pool of stock designs to pick from without implying omnis are limited to those configurations in some way.  Honestly, it could still be implemented on newer Clan designs or added retroactively with a piece of fluff about one of the old canon configurations by describing how the configuration became popular in the first place.

Are you suggesting that if only the wording was correct, the fan base would never have anything to argue about? :)

[Hellraiser]

That said, most of the 3050-era configurations that can jump have them as fixed equipment. Only Aiden's "Jinx" springs to mind as an exception.

Kitfox, D-Wolf, & T-Wolf all have jumping S models developed by the Wolves.
Hmm, aside from those I'm having issues recalling another pod added JJ model from the 50's.
I think one of the LineBackers can Jump but it might be the H model, IDR.

Bred for War has one of the better examples of how Omnis are used, when Phelan reconfigures all his units to run with energy weapons because the arctic temps on the battlefield on Morges allows them to run extra hot without penalty against the Falcons.

To me the whole point of an OmniMech is the adaptability it offers. You can adopt your loadout to your mission, allowing you to continue using a chasis you know well. Instead it seems to have turned into shoe-horned stocked configs that are limited to some clans, which totally defeats the whole concept. The stock configs are because some examples of popular configuartions are needed, and because showing every possible configuration opportunity is impossible, the number of record sheets needed would be insane.

The question I see w/ that is where they all "custom" models ?   OORR  Were they changed over to canon variants that were energy heavy.

Example.
Nova-S (Phelan)
Warhawk-C  (Ranna)
Executioner-A
Gargoyle-A/D
T-Wolf-A
Summoner-D
StormCrow-Prime
IceStorm-D
KitFox-W
Adder-Prime
Pouncer-Prime
Phantom-C
FireMoth-D
................... You get the picture.

I see the canon models as being able to just about any specialization you want.

[Diablo48]

Are you suggesting that if only the wording was correct, the fan base would never have anything to argue about? :)

Of course not, I am just saying some different wording would have stopped people from forgetting that the whole point of omnis is that you can shove whatever you can fit in there and it will work.  As is there are a lot of people who refuse to accept custom omni configurations, and I have even seen people behave as if it is easier to customize BattleMechs than omnis on occasion.  I find this incredibly frustrating because it totally undermines the point of having an omni in the first place if you are tied to specific configurations.

Kitfox, D-Wolf, & T-Wolf all have jumping S models developed by the Wolves.
Hmm, aside from those I'm having issues recalling another pod added JJ model from the 50's.
I think one of the LineBackers can Jump but it might be the H model, IDR....

Those all came later.  When TRO 3050 first came out, there were no omni configurations with pod mounted Jump Jets.

[Hellraiser]

Those all came later.  When TRO 3050 first came out, there were no omni configurations with pod mounted Jump Jets.

He said 3050 era,  I said 3050's.   I don't think either one of us was restricting ourselves to the exact 16 mechs & configurations from original TRO3050.

[Nightsky]

As is there are a lot of people who refuse to accept custom omni configurations

Isn't that more down to game balance fears though, people having been burned by other players spamming Clan pulse and t-comps?

[Diablo48]

Isn't that more down to game balance fears though, people having been burned by other players spamming Clan pulse and t-comps?

There are counters to everything, and BV exists for a reason.  Using the Pulse/TC boat, the counter is to dump a Dire Wolf in front of them because it will take them forever to get through its armor, and then either arm it with LPLs of your own if the enemy is in a fast moving platform or pile on ERPPCs if they cannot avoid your fire when using Clan pilots with a typical 2/3 skill level.

[Lysenko]

I think you're looking at it wrong. Omnis are that changeable, but not for BT. Hear me out, now. :)

It's all about focus or view of the battle. The default is Total War. Single 'Mechs and pilots. The pilots have 2 skills and a name. That's it.

Widen the focus and we get StratOps/Battleforce. Now we're looking at whole units at a time.

Widen some more and we InterOps/Succession Wars. Now the battlefield is the Inner Sphere and we're dealing with regiments and the like.

Go the Narrowest focus and we get ATOW. This is where TacOps really belongs. Each player has a single 'mech and a well-detailed pilot. and this is where the ultimate modularity of omnis belong. this is not to say you can't do it in TW. But it feels to me like a level of specialization that's way too narrow., If that makes sense at 2 in teh morning. lol

[DarkMessiah]

Except that most custom configurations debuted in novels.  I can't think of a single case where a 'personal' config was seen first in a TRO.

There are over a dozen custom 'Mechs that debuted in TROs versus fiction, but specifically Omnis? Mechwarrior Oren's Pouncer was comes from TR: 3055U (although it technically isn't an Omni anymore, as he added MASC to the chassis), and Precentor Tamiel's Grigori comes from TR: 3075, though both designs lack record sheets to date.

Additionally, the Summoner M, Timber Wolf Bounty Hunter, and Osteon "Jaguar" all debuted in various soucebooks rather than fiction. However, I do concede the point that most custom Omni configs come from fiction sources.

The question I see w/ that is where they all "custom" models ?   OORR  Were they changed over to canon variants that were energy heavy.

Well, Phelan's Nova was definitely a custom configuration, but I'd guess the rank and file troops used 'standard' configurations. Custom configurations are sadly generally reserved for 'ace' or 'hero' personalities in the BT universe.

[Nightsky]

There are counters to everything, and BV exists for a reason.  Using the Pulse/TC boat, the counter is to dump a Dire Wolf in front of them because it will take them forever to get through its armor, and then either arm it with LPLs of your own if the enemy is in a fast moving platform or pile on ERPPCs if they cannot avoid your fire when using Clan pilots with a typical 2/3 skill level.

In a blind game people don't like being obliged to go fat just because the other guy might go heavy on pulse and TCs. And before you say that a player can spam pulse+tc with standard battlemechs anyway, there are plenty of leagues and clubs that outright ban those mechs too. There will always be counters to any given set up and two perfectly balanced sides is impossible if they're not identical on a mirror board, but "screwed unless you do X" is not a universally popular metagame. That's the reason why people don't like full custom omnis to be allowed.

Personally, I'm happy to play against custom omnis with the guys I know well, I know they won't spring a hardcore min-maxed set of configs on me.

[Diablo48]

In a blind game people don't like being obliged to go fat just because the other guy might go heavy on pulse and TCs. And before you say that a player can spam pulse+tc with standard battlemechs anyway, there are plenty of leagues and clubs that outright ban those mechs too. There will always be counters to any given set up and two perfectly balanced sides is impossible if they're not identical on a mirror board, but "screwed unless you do X" is not a universally popular metagame. That's the reason why people don't like full custom omnis to be allowed.

Personally, I'm happy to play against custom omnis with the guys I know well, I know they won't spring a hardcore min-maxed set of configs on me.

Honestly, if you are only bringing fast movers you should not complain when you get countered.  There is a reason I usually bring a mix of fast moving lights and/or mediums supporting slow heavies/assaults with a blend of weapons.  It means I can use the larger 'Mechs to cover the little guys if I run into the pulse boats, and I have fast moving backstabbers to pick off enemies with high penetration weapons to try to quickly knock out my anchor.

[Savage Coyote]

Honestly, if you are only bringing fast movers you should not complain when you get countered.  There is a reason I usually bring a mix of fast moving lights and/or mediums supporting slow heavies/assaults with a blend of weapons.  It means I can use the larger 'Mechs to cover the little guys if I run into the pulse boats, and I have fast moving backstabbers to pick off enemies with high penetration weapons to try to quickly knock out my anchor.

I can back this statement up.  In some of the old FGC battles done on MM I'd have a couple of heavies assaults, some mediums and a fast backstabber or two.  While we were dueling, I could usually get a win due to the odd weight classes or speed of the faster units.

[Nightsky]

Honestly, if you are only bringing fast movers you should not complain when you get countered.  There is a reason I usually bring a mix of fast moving lights and/or mediums supporting slow heavies/assaults with a blend of weapons.  It means I can use the larger 'Mechs to cover the little guys if I run into the pulse boats, and I have fast moving backstabbers to pick off enemies with high penetration weapons to try to quickly knock out my anchor.

That's nice, but it's a complete strawman.

[Hellraiser]

Well, Phelan's Nova was definitely a custom configuration, but I'd guess the rank and file troops used 'standard' configurations. Custom configurations are sadly generally reserved for 'ace' or 'hero' personalities in the BT universe.

What was special about it that made it something other than a Nova-S ?

[DarkMessiah]

What was special about it that made it something other than a Nova-S ?

Better heat dissipation and a targeting computer, no MGs, AMS or active probe. He started with a Prime that swapped all 12 ER mediums for six medium pulse lasers, then added a TC.