How much access to information was there in the CC and DC?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So our two positions are:

"There's no way JumpShip transmission is cheaper than HPG transmission."

and

"There's no way HPG transmission is cheaper than JumpShip transmission".

If we're to continue, then the only thing to do is start herding up some catgirls for the slaughter.  Perhaps we might also light the *Cray Beacon* in order to possibly get him or someone else to chime in and spare the innocent lives.

Let's start with some quotes:

The two types of HPGs available for star
systems are A-rated and B-rated. Both
classes of HPGs have a 50-light-year
range. Serving as communication hubs for
B-rated HPGs, an A-rated HPG transmits
to each B-rated HPG in range sequentially
every 12 to 24 hours (sooner for priority
messages and during the Star League).
B-rated HPGs transmit less frequently
than A-rated HPGs (every 12 hours during
the Star League, or every few days after
the fall of the Star League).

So HPG transmission propagates roughly 50LY every 24 hours.

I'm assuming we don't need a quote to agree upon how JumpShip traffic works, can we agree that it's 30 LY per jump, and it normally requires 48 hours for a quick recharge from a charge station and some amount longer than that in most star systems via solar sail?  But for the sake of comparison let's be crazy generous to the JumpShip system and presume the "average" delay between jumps is only 2 days.  That makes JumpShip propagation roughly 30LY per 48 hours. 

So to keep the catgirl genocide on topic with the OP, let's use a hypothetical example of the New Avalon Herald wanting to make itself available on Annapolis in the Draconis Combine.  The distance between their respective X,Y coordinates is just over 262 LY.  Presuming equally for HPGs and JumpShips both that a hypothetical perfect minimum distance path is possible: that's 5 HPG transmissions taking ~4 days to arrive.  Via JumpShip that's 8 jumps, taking at least 14 days, not including DropShip travel time.  And when factoring in DropShip transit times, the HPG transmission arrived before the DropShip leaving New Avalon even reaches the JumpShip.

Even before factoring in relative C-Bill costs, if time is at all a factor (like say getting your newspaper broadcast out before its contents are irrelevant upon receipt) HPGs are obviously the way to go.  With the downside of ROM potentially reading your mail, granted.

We've also got the problem of hiring out not just a DropShip but a JumpShip as well (or multiple JumpShips if you want to go faster and do Command Circuits).  If you're just waiting for the next free trader going in the right general direction to sell you some passage for your cargo, it's not reasonable to continue to presume minimum times anymore.  For minimum times, you have to hire out entire spacecraft, which has got to be crazy expensive for something like delivering the newspaper or a trideo episode.  Even before we start arguing about what the exact C-Bill costs would be either way. 

[monbvol]

So our two positions are:

"There's no way JumpShip transmission is cheaper than HPG transmission."

and

"There's no way HPG transmission is cheaper than JumpShip transmission".

If we're to continue, then the only thing to do is start herding up some catgirls for the slaughter.  Perhaps we might also light the *Cray Beacon* in order to possibly get him or someone else to chime in and spare the innocent lives.

Let's start with some quotes:

So HPG transmission propagates roughly 50LY every 24 hours.

I'm assuming we don't need a quote to agree upon how JumpShip traffic works, can we agree that it's 30 LY per jump, and it normally requires 48 hours for a quick recharge from a charge station and some amount longer than that in most star systems via solar sail?  But for the sake of comparison let's be crazy generous to the JumpShip system and presume the "average" delay between jumps is only 2 days.  That makes JumpShip propagation roughly 30LY per 48 hours.

Jumpships can only jump that quickly even from charging stations if you really want fried jump cores.

So to keep the catgirl genocide on topic with the OP, let's use a hypothetical example of the New Avalon Herald wanting to make itself available on Annapolis in the Draconis Combine.  The distance between their respective X,Y coordinates is just over 262 LY.  Presuming equally for HPGs and JumpShips both that a hypothetical perfect minimum distance path is possible: that's 5 HPG transmissions taking ~4 days to arrive.  Via JumpShip that's 8 jumps, taking at least 14 days, not including DropShip travel time.  And when factoring in DropShip transit times, the HPG transmission arrived before the DropShip leaving New Avalon even reaches the JumpShip.

Even before factoring in relative C-Bill costs, if time is at all a factor (like say getting your newspaper broadcast out before its contents are irrelevant upon receipt) HPGs are obviously the way to go.  With the downside of ROM potentially reading your mail, granted.

That presumes Comstar would accomodate the New Avalon Herald.  Which I am still completely unconvinced they would.

We've also got the problem of hiring out not just a DropShip but a JumpShip as well (or multiple JumpShips if you want to go faster and do Command Circuits).  If you're just waiting for the next free trader going in the right general direction to sell you some passage for your cargo, it's not reasonable to continue to presume minimum times anymore.  For minimum times, you have to hire out entire spacecraft, which has got to be crazy expensive for something like delivering the newspaper or a trideo episode.  Even before we start arguing about what the exact C-Bill costs would be either way.

Why would you need to hire a jumpship or dropship at all when it has been established in canon that they trade news and media archives with each other freely?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Jumpships can only jump that quickly even from charging stations if you really want fried jump cores.

Well agreed that what I was saying for the benefit of argument WAS perhaps unreasonably generous to JumpShip propagation times.

That presumes Comstar would accomodate the New Avalon Herald.  Which I am still completely unconvinced they would.

Any reason to be unconvinced?  Can you think of an example of ComStar turning away a customer's perfectly good money to use the HPG network?  In this hypothetical case, ComStar would imo just shrug and think there's a fool born every minute.  What's Kurita going to do? Take it out on ComStar? No, they'll just take it out on any plebes who actually buy a copy of the rag.

Why would you need to hire a jumpship or dropship at all when it has been established in canon that they trade news and media archives with each other freely?

Sure they do.  But again in the hypothetical example of wanting to get this week's New Avalon Herald on Annapolis: you can wait for however long it is before a trader is blasting off from New Avalon, and then wait for however long that DropShip has to wait for a Jumpship heading generally towards Annapolis, then wait at each successive jump for a JumpShip also going the right way... it's unreasonable to presume there's just the happy coincidence of a DropShip and JumpShip both heading all the way to your intended destination the moment you're ready to ship.  What if when the data is jumped into a world on the Draconis border there's no JumpShips heading into the Combine from this system for an entire month?  Or two months?  Or three? What if the fastest way to get your cargo from one system to the next is to transfer to another DropShip that is heading the right way... that means your cost per jump ends up being unanticipateable.  Again, unless you charter a DropShip and JumpShip for the entire route.  Which is ridiculous.

[monbvol]

Except we're explicitly told that there are months or even years long delays in entertainment broadcasts and even sometimes news, especially if it comes from another realm.

If it were as simple as throw money at Comstar and they'd show your stuff, this would have no reason to happen, your own math proves it.

If it were instead being propagated via jumpships, dropships, and planets trading with whoever happens to be in system, then this becomes far more reasonable.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Except we're explicitly told that there are months or even years long delays in entertainment broadcasts and even sometimes news, especially if it comes from another realm.

If it were as simple as throw money at Comstar and they'd show your stuff, this would have no reason to happen, your own math proves it.

Is there a citation explaining the reason for the delays?  Such as a citation saying the media companies are refusing to use the HPG network and relying solely on physical transportation?

My example was one destination.  Let's say you want to broadcast to EVERY world in the Combine/Confederation.  While it's still exponentially cheaper than physically shipping chips to every world in the Combine/Confederation, your CBAs may prohibit broadcasting to certain worlds/regions regularly... and the potential for lack of profitability of regularly broadcasting to EVERYWHERE constantly is a reasonable enough explanation for this world or that being 7 months behind on the Steinharts.

Solaris duels appear to be one of the few outliers that is a media broadcast profitable enough to broadcast everywhere ASAP.  Seems reasonable enough that most regions that get recurring media at all suffer some sort of caching due to financial considerations rather than logistical ones.

[monbvol]

I can't remember a specific reason given but the two possible explanations I can come up with end up at the same end conclusion: Comstar isn't propagating media/propaganda primarily through HPGs.

Especially since you're still thinking too physical when you need to think more digital.

You're still thinking that they need to ship a chip to every planet.  The reality is the Jumpships, Dropships, and even planets already have the chips and it is just a matter of digitally copying the media.  Which can be done via radio broadcast/reception.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I can't remember a specific reason given but the two possible explanations I can come up with end up at the same end conclusion: Comstar isn't propagating media/propaganda primarily through HPGs.

Well, per the Solaris stuff: Solaris duels are broadcast via HPG.  Doesn't make much sense for other media to ignore the existing comm infrastructure.  If the only problem with HPG transmissions is reconciling months and years long lag to receive product:  I consider CBA-based throttling back on who gets broadcasted to how often is on the right side of Occam's Razor and HPG-eschewing JumpShip traffic just being slow and intermittent is on the wrong side.

Especially since you're still thinking too physical when you need to think more digital.

You're still thinking that they need to ship a chip to every planet.  The reality is the Jumpships, Dropships, and even planets already have the chips and it is just a matter of digitally copying the media.  Which can be done via radio broadcast/reception.

CAN be done, sure.  Are you saying media broadcasting in the BTU works on the Napster/Torrent model?  How do media companies make a profit if noone is paying for their material?  Or what, space crews wire profits/royalties back every time they share the data?  Space crews are few enough that if they share media between them it's probably no big deal, but if spacers are sharing with the worlds they visit as well there's big problem with reconciling how the media companies are making profits.


Finally found something with regards to C-Bill costs for HPG transmissions.  I coulda sworn there was something on that topic in CO, but have had no joy thus far.  The Sarna article on HPGs cites the 1 C-Bill=1 millisecond rate, and furthermore pegs the bandwidth at 2 pages or one image at 1 millisecond. 

Going back to the hypothetical scenario of broadcasting some news from the land of the free into the Combine: Let's say the version of the New Avalon Herald intended for DC subversion/consumption is 100 pages with 150 images.  That's 200 C-Bills per HPG, or 1,000 C-Bills to broadcast from New Avalon to Annapolis.  You'd have to sell 1,000 C-Bills worth of your product for it to even break even (and who cares if you only break even on a pissant world like that , it's ComStar who's paying the maintenance and upkeep on the comms infrastructure)  And whether you break even or not, 1,000 C-Bills is absolute chump change compared to Jump fees.

Scale that up a a few hundred fold to broadcast to an entire Successor State.  If certain worlds don't at least break even, you can cut your losses and broadcast to them less often (causing that world to be more behind than others on your product).

[monbvol]

Well, per the Solaris stuff: Solaris duels are broadcast via HPG.  Doesn't make much sense for other media to ignore the existing comm infrastructure.  If the only problem with HPG transmissions is reconciling months and years long lag to receive product:  I consider CBA-based throttling back on who gets broadcasted to how often is on the right side of Occam's Razor and HPG-eschewing JumpShip traffic just being slow and intermittent is on the wrong side.

Which still lends itself to the ultimate conclusion of Comstar isn't broadcasting media/propaganda from other sources primarily via HPG.

CAN be done, sure.  Are you saying media broadcasting in the BTU works on the Napster/Torrent model?  How do media companies make a profit if noone is paying for their material?  Or what, space crews wire profits/royalties back every time they share the data?


Finally found something with regards to C-Bill costs for HPG transmissions.  I coulda sworn there was something on that topic in CO, but have had no joy thus far.  The Sarna article on HPGs cites the 1 C-Bill=1 millisecond rate, and furthermore pegs the bandwidth at 2 pages or one image at 1 millisecond. 

Going back to the hypothetical scenario of broadcasting some news from the land of the free into the Combine: Let's say the version for DC subversion/consumption is 100 pages with 100 images.  That's 200 C-Bills per HPG, or 1,000 C-Bills to broadcast from New Avalon to Annapolis.  You'd have to sell 1,000 C-Bills worth of your product for it to even break even (and who cares if you only break even on a pissant world like that , it's ComStar who's paying the maintenance and upkeep on the comms infrastructure)  And whether you break even or not, 1,000 C-Bills is absolute chump change compared to Jump fees.

Scale that up a a few hundred fold to broadcast to an entire Successor State.  If certain worlds don't at least break even, you can cut your losses and broadcast to them less often (causing that world to be more behind than others on your product).

There are explicit references to Jumpships and Dropships swapping media/news ala Napster/Torrent models.  So I'll admit I don't know how interstellar media is profitable or if Jumpships/Dropships have some sort of arrangement where part of their fees go to the media companies.

Either way again your own argument still clearly shows that Comstar isn't propagating outside media/propaganda through their HPG network/media services and even does hinge on the Successor States having control over what is broadcast via Comstar's media services to explain why there are delays on some things and not others.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Which still lends itself to the ultimate conclusion of Comstar isn't broadcasting media/propaganda from other sources primarily via HPG.

...

Either way again your own argument still clearly shows that Comstar isn't propagating outside media/propaganda through their HPG network/media services and even does hinge on the Successor States having control over what is broadcast via Comstar's media services to explain why there are delays on some things and not others.

I'm not following your logic at all here.

Fact: Solaris Duels are broadcast over HPGs.
I'm willing to accept as Fact: there are instances of media broadcasts being further behind than what HPG traffic could provide
I'm willing to accept as Fact: Spacers share their media libraries with each other (potentially illegally)

By your own admission if media is primarily propagated to the Inner Sphere at large (as opposed to just between Spacer crews) via free distribution by Spacers it's hard-to-impossible to explain why media producers are able to keep producing media.

OTOH the only critique I'm seeing about the claim that HPGs are used to transmit media is why then are there worlds 7 months behind on the Steinharts when it only takes days or at worst weeks to get a HPG message there.  Honestly a CBA plausibly explains how/why that can happen.

Edit: If I haven't convinced ya, I'm not going to ever do it.  I punted and am done on this particular topic.  Perhaps we'll get someone to come in and say who's right.

[monbvol]

Here's where I'm at:

1. We do have Solaris games being broadcast but I'm not sure how widely they are actually broadcast.  I grant they do seem pretty widely distributed.  Still Solaris games are not propaganda, at least not directly.

2. Reading up on the Tharkad Broadcasting Agency(source of the Steinharts) there are explicit references to physical media distribution and it being popular/profitable.  I can only guess there must be some sort of mechanism in place to keep this true in the face of Jumpships and Dropships trading media/news archives with each other.

3. The Helm Memory Core was propagated via Jumpship/Dropship data sharing.  While this was done specifically to ensure the data couldn't be easily destroyed it does still show that information can be disseminated rather quickly via Jumpship/Dropship data sharing.

4. I still haven't found any reference to Comstar being willing to broadcast someone else's propaganda.  I will also note that in the ask the developers thread you asked about media then got an answer on that basis then added propaganda after the fact.

[Adrian Gideon]

In short yes.

Aside from the ecclesiastical trappings, ComStar was a business. So as long as someone was paying, local, regional, national news services and programming (including propaganda) was broadcast.

There’s a lot of detail in the BattleTech Universe that hasn’t been explored, and the mundane operations of interstellar media and ComStar’s role in it has never more than scratched the surface. But yes, ComStar wouldn’t balk at any of this.

(And yes, information dissemination by JumpShip had its own advantages and disadvantages, and depending on myriad circumstances could be much faster or slower than HPG. Speed of plot, ultimately.)

[monbvol]

Well there we have it.

Still strikes as a bit odd me that Comstar would be that willing to take the risks of knowingly/willingly showing Steiner propaganda in Kurita space(as a specific theoretical example) for long stretches of it's existence and really does seem to make information control next to impossible but word of developer has been given.

Well I guess I'll just have to admit I was wrong and be glad it ins't my job to explain how all this stuff works the way it does because I'll admit if it is that simple to get entertainment media/propaganda across a national border it does make it a bit hard for me to reconcile some of the references we have on the matter at hand.

[Weirdo]

I imagine there's at least some discretion involved. As he said, Cornstar is a business, and successful businesses are all about balancing risks vs rewards. In the Battletech universe, risks aren't always purely financial, and the potential hazards to resources, facilities, and personnel must be weighed before you accept just anyone's money. Blatant propaganda from a hostile house won't win you any friends, and I imagine even Cornstar had to tread carefully in a culture as xenophobic as the Combine. True pirate media likely had to be brought in by other means.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OTOH the more reliant the DC is on its own domestic propaganda (and on ComStar for delivering it) the less leverage they have on ComStar to not entertain competing propaganda.

[Weirdo]

Exactly. Neither side can just traipse over the other willy-nilly.

[Adrian Gideon]

Applying real world logic to BT is akin to murder, but apply it a little more here. If Lyran news (and/or propaganda) is being sent to the DC, someone is paying for it and someone is receiving it. Follow the money, and you’ll find its not that simple or easy. You’ll find you’re right back to having that filtered straight from CS to the DC government.

[Pat Payne]

Well there we have it.

Still strikes as a bit odd me that Comstar would be that willing to take the risks of knowingly/willingly showing Steiner propaganda in Kurita space(as a specific theoretical example) for long stretches of it's existence and really does seem to make information control next to impossible but word of developer has been given.

Well I guess I'll just have to admit I was wrong and be glad it ins't my job to explain how all this stuff works the way it does because I'll admit if it is that simple to get entertainment media/propaganda across a national border it does make it a bit hard for me to reconcile some of the references we have on the matter at hand.

My own theory still is that it may be easy to get it over the border, but it is still risky for the viewer either way. The DC/CC may or may not be able to embargo the info effectively, but they sure as shooting can punish the viewer.

'Citizen. You seem to be fond of The Steinhardts according to our monitoring of your media consumption, so desu-ka? We are going to have to send you off to "re-education" to cleanse you of this corrosive interest in enemy media...'

[Adrian Gideon]

I think that’s closer to the right track. Got drill down some more. How would the citizen be able to get a hold of the Steinhards anyway? His local station? Which is government controlled? Or did he get trivids from the black market?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well, apparently HPG transmissions can be received by anyone in that system with a radio and not just the HPG compound itself.

Hypothetically ComStar could broadcast an unencrypted episode of the Steinhardts or a copy of the New Avalon Herald and it's now effectively available to anyone on that planet free of charge (so long as someone on-world managed to record the transmission).  Doesn't make much economic sense for a media distributor, but might make sense for an intelligence apparatus to broadcast Voice of America style into enemy territory.

It's just up to whether ComStar would be willing to do so, and it seems that's probably firmly on the side of personal opinion rather than canonical precedent.  So YMMV on that.  Way I see it noone complains about ComStar aiding military action against your claimed worlds by relaying orders to and from forces invading/hiding out on it- why should you complain to ComStar about propaganda being broadcast into it?

[Adrian Gideon]

Well, apparently HPG transmissions can be received by anyone in that system with a radio and not just the HPG compound

that contradicts canon. Where’d this come from? It may be possible to intercept a pulse with the right equipment, but no, every dude with a sci-fi ham radio is not picking up ComStar’s transmissions.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

that contradicts canon. Where’d this come from? It may be possible to intercept a pulse with the right equipment, but no, every dude with a sci-fi ham radio is not picking up ComStar’s transmissions.

Well that's an interesting take.  Lemme find the thread in question and link your comment there, as IIRC the forumites decided by consensus that anyone CAN intercept a HPG message.

Edit:  Apparently what I was remembering was a lot less official than I remembered it being.  AG's correction acknowledged.

[Pat Payne]

How would the citizen be able to get a hold of the Steinhards anyway? His local station? Which is government controlled?

That does actually answer quite a lot, because it  implies the chain of ComStar -> Government Censor -> Local Planetary Media -> End User.

In other words, what you're saying (if I'm reading between the lines correctly) is that ComStar can receive anything it wants on its HPG equipment without hindrance (because nobody wants to mess that directly with ComStar and risk interdiction), but the moment that data leaves the HPG station's extraterritorial zone, it falls under the purview of the local or House government (or both at the same time, depending on the planet) and they can censor (or not) to their heart's delight before it gets onto the airwaves or broadband of the particular locale.