Author Topic: What Vehicles Do You Take?  (Read 10340 times)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #30 on: 27 June 2019, 03:38:20 »
If I remember the thread (it's been a while), the "quarter ton" thing was a hand wave to include the heavier weapons.  That's basically one shot of AC/20 ammo, or two for an LRM-20.  Going to a range once a month isn't unreasonable.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #31 on: 27 June 2019, 09:41:41 »
Its not going to the range, its firing . . . for vehicle weapons you practice for speed of response and accuracy of actions.  On a weekend drill, let alone a week long FTX we 'shot' more missions than you would in actual combat- if we fired that many rockets in reality it would have torn apart the equipment.  For example, the M270 during live fire qualifications fired half its load, a single six pack, in different ways.  It was the ONLY time the launchers fired all year and when we were preparing to deploy we did NOT fire the launchers (in fact, higher came in and chewed out brigade for having the vehicles in the field where they could get broken) though we did fire small and crew served arms to qualify again.  Monthly regular FTX would 'fire' 3-20 rockets per launcher an hour depending on operational tempo and would be kept up for 48-54 hours.  Its not a realistic fire rate but it can be done in practice b/c all you are doing is simulating the fire (drive, park, lay on target, computer cycles, stow, drive back to hide).

Another reason is that after live fire you have to clean the weapons- for rocket launchers this means you take a grinder to the opening ports to grind off the carbon & fouling to get back down to the metal.  I imagine tube artillery and tanks have to deal with it on the tubes to clean the bores.  Then you have the shock wear to the system each time it fires.

Sort of gets back to, the easiest way to break a combat system is to have it driving in field conditions (my old APC has a divot in its hull b/c . . . ) or firing combat rounds.  Most military vehicles spend way more time in the motorpool than driving on roads, in the field or in combat.

For mercs, I would expect they would do their live fire & training on a Hiring Hall world where it can be certified by the MRB, MRBC or some sort of 3rd party.  Regulars or militia, an annual thing overseen by the military command structure.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #32 on: 27 June 2019, 11:29:13 »
I prefer a mix of hover and tracked, and mainly use the vehicles to support the 'Mechs that occupy my front line (A TDR beats a Manticore, but a TDR supported by a Manticore beats either).  A Manticore makes an ideal fire support unit 3-10 hexes behind your 'Mechs, delivering ranged fire while the 'Mechs receive most of the incoming shots, so my tanks generally survive.  Something with LRMs generally accompanies it, such as a Hunter, Bulldog(LRM), or LRM Carrier.  In a financial pinch, I'll run a couple of Strikers, but they're rather limited by terrain due to wheeled movement.

Hovers run on the flanks, going after anything vulnerable behind enemy lines or making high speed slash attacks at the flanks or rear of the line itself.  For that, my ideal hover lance would include a pair of Saracens (LRM-10 plus 3xSRM-2), one Saladin (AC/5 allowing aimed shots at immobilized targets, plus 2xSRM-2 with Infernos), and either a Saladin(Armor) with AC/20, or a Drillson.  I'm reasonably content with a J. Edgar or Pegasus in one of those positions.  If you can't get a good movement modifier, and don't have better targets for the enemy to fire at, don't put them in harm's way.  If the enemy has better things to shoot at for the turn, the hovers can operate with near-impunity.

I've bailed the crews on immobilized vehicles in many campaign battles, won the battle, and then recovered and repaired the vehicle afterwards.  They're more vulnerable to critical hits than a 'Mech, but can field the same firepower for a LOT less money or somewhat less BV.  If you use them conservatively, they usually survive.  If you put them in high-risk situations, they tend to get wrecked, and that gets expensive, as well as costing the lives of your valuable trained personnel.  Fielding a cheap standard APC to pick up bailed vehicle crews can be a good investment.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #33 on: 27 June 2019, 13:01:03 »
Fielding a cheap standard APC to pick up bailed vehicle crews can be a good investment.

Or a Ferret VTOL, I use them for SAR on mechwarriors too.  Trained veteran pilots & crews can get expensive, having some SAR specialists pays off in the long run . . . and as a merc, its one more thing that encourages/keeps your people around instead of looking to move to a different unit.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #34 on: 27 June 2019, 15:45:50 »
Its not going to the range, its firing . . . for vehicle weapons you practice for speed of response and accuracy of actions.  On a weekend drill, let alone a week long FTX we 'shot' more missions than you would in actual combat-
*snip*
I think that assumption fits with the firing rate they chose, and it seems clear the cost could cover the maintenance end of actual weapons fire as well (since they explicitly mention using "inexpensive training ammunition").

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #35 on: 27 June 2019, 16:40:53 »
The cost difference on 'live fire' vs 'war shots' is small, its basically the warheads.  Training pods for the rockets, and tube artillery, are 'dummy' rounds- they are empty pods that talk to the launcher and weighted to match live pods while artillery just have dummy shells and fake charges to load and unload.  Nothing goes *boom* or *whoosh* -its all computer simulated firing with the manual actions around it.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #36 on: 27 June 2019, 16:52:49 »
Ok, but you mentioned there was a maintenance aspect to any "warshot" fire, and I think the premium associated with doing that maintenance would account for additional costs.  Their swag still seems reasonable to me...

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #37 on: 28 June 2019, 00:58:12 »
Oh, its not a huge maintenance time suck- breaking track or pulling the engine pak is worse.  The point was that firing weapons decreases the life expectancy of the systems when all you need to perform field firing training- for vehicle weapons- is dummy munitions which avoids the heat, toxic gases, pressure waves, residue, and other effects of firing a real weapon.

Besides, when you are tracking that its not Chaos Campaign RP level, you already have techs who put in X hours to do things . . . and you are tracking how much ammo you have on deployment or sitting back in the bunkers on base.  So the quarter ton use does not cover maintenance, its just firing that much of your inventory every month.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #38 on: 28 June 2019, 03:06:23 »
Or at least an equivalent cost of "training" ammunition...

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #39 on: 28 June 2019, 09:51:14 »
Sure, but training 'ammo' does not get used up.  But have we ever seen costs for the 'powered down' munitions-  like the paintball AC rounds, etc.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #40 on: 28 June 2019, 15:54:22 »
We haven't, but I'd say Campaign Ops is enough to say it exists...

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #41 on: 28 June 2019, 20:10:04 »
How big of a unit are we talking?  And I could have sworn the various Goblin variants (at least the LRM and SRM) were available to mercs too...
Finally rolled this up, final budget is 237.6 million.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #42 on: 28 June 2019, 20:14:17 »
237.6M?  :o

I only spent 151M on Glenmora's Planetary Militia...  ^-^

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #43 on: 28 June 2019, 20:31:18 »
I used 3rd Ed RPG to generate a character to lead the unit. So while I only rolled a 7 on the table (50M), the 3.3 character multiplier (Lyran characters seem to be a bit broken in certain ways back then), along with the multipliers for Major Power and Wealthy Faction (This is a new unit), yeah things got a little out of hand.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #44 on: 29 June 2019, 05:38:27 »
What's interesting is that's probably enough to outright BUY a DropShip.  Campaign Operations steps around that problem by not requiring unit funds to acquire one.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #45 on: 29 June 2019, 05:58:48 »
Probably best that I didn't the Free Trader path then, because if you take that path then you can end up owning a DS out of character creation.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37342
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #46 on: 29 June 2019, 06:44:51 »
Indeed!  3rd had some pretty over the top events buried in the Life Paths.

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7185
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #47 on: 29 June 2019, 07:02:48 »
Oh, its not a huge maintenance time suck- breaking track or pulling the engine pak is worse.  The point was that firing weapons decreases the life expectancy of the systems when all you need to perform field firing training- for vehicle weapons- is dummy munitions which avoids the heat, toxic gases, pressure waves, residue, and other effects of firing a real weapon.
I think that the extreme durability of BT technology may have nullified that issue. 

Also I can imagine that vehicles spend a lot of time on patrol and not just being parked at the base, thus consuming fuel.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

Mattlov

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1210
  • Fnord.
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #48 on: 29 June 2019, 10:00:39 »
There is also a glaring omission of 3025 tanks available, and it's about the best tank.  The Brutus.

Although for supply and survivability reasons, as a merc I'd rip out the SRM 2 for 2 more tons of armor.

It gives you primary weapons in large lasers, so less ammo concerns.  But does have the LRM 20 for indirect support, and the SRM launcher for close support.
"The rules technically allow all sorts of bad ideas." -Moonsword


Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #49 on: 29 June 2019, 11:05:25 »
There is also a glaring omission of 3025 tanks available, and it's about the best tank.  The Brutus.

Although for supply and survivability reasons, as a merc I'd rip out the SRM 2 for 2 more tons of armor.

It gives you primary weapons in large lasers, so less ammo concerns.  But does have the LRM 20 for indirect support, and the SRM launcher for close support.

And you have the PPC and LRM variants as well for more options with streamlined logistics.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #50 on: 29 June 2019, 11:15:41 »
I think that the extreme durability of BT technology may have nullified that issue. 

Also I can imagine that vehicles spend a lot of time on patrol and not just being parked at the base, thus consuming fuel.

Uh no . . . we had the pak pulled on our M1068 less than 3 years after it was converted (aka new engine) . . . because of in the design, the motor for the hydraulic ramp was located in a place it was under/blocked by the new engine.  So the hull had to be opened up and the engine hoisted out even though nothing was wrong with it to get to the damaged part.  The example was to demonstrate a time/labor intensive task, which pulling the pak is a pain in the arse.

And yeah, I do not care how futuristic your tracks are being in the field will still give them cause to break b/c the nature of what they are- rotating plates linked together by pins.  I never had track break in the field though I was VERY worried once b/c of the conditions.  I THINK one launcher did, but when it came time for the replacement of the rubber treads/grips on each track plate it was a long ordeal in the motorpool where you had nice concrete aprons to use.

Regular security patrols you do not use tanks, unless you are patrolling to find enemy tanks.  You want some sort of patrol on planet that is not under threat, you are going to use Humvee like (hey Ibex) vehicle with some infantry mounted.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7185
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #51 on: 29 June 2019, 12:30:42 »
Uh no . . . we had the pak pulled on our M1068 less than 3 years after it was converted (aka new engine) . . . because of in the design, the motor for the hydraulic ramp was located in a place it was under/blocked by the new engine.  So the hull had to be opened up and the engine hoisted out even though nothing was wrong with it to get to the damaged part.  The example was to demonstrate a time/labor intensive task, which pulling the pak is a pain in the arse.

And yeah, I do not care how futuristic your tracks are being in the field will still give them cause to break b/c the nature of what they are- rotating plates linked together by pins.  I never had track break in the field though I was VERY worried once b/c of the conditions.  I THINK one launcher did, but when it came time for the replacement of the rubber treads/grips on each track plate it was a long ordeal in the motorpool where you had nice concrete aprons to use.
That is the current RL situation, but it is much better then of WW2 tanks, so it isn't a stretch that future tanks with superior materials and design experience will lead to equipment that can take that level of usage.


Quote
Regular security patrols you do not use tanks, unless you are patrolling to find enemy tanks.  You want some sort of patrol on planet that is not under threat, you are going to use Humvee like (hey Ibex) vehicle with some infantry mounted.
The ibex RV is very likely to be wiped out in an instant, if I can afford it I would like to have heavier armor.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

jamesbeil

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #52 on: 29 June 2019, 14:14:59 »
I'd always recommend LRM carriers, but without knowing more about the other arms of your forces it's hard to say. You want vehicles that are relatively easy to transport, relatively quick, and make up for something that your 'Mechs lack.

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #53 on: 29 June 2019, 14:57:23 »
That is the current RL situation, but it is much better then of WW2 tanks, so it isn't a stretch that future tanks with superior materials and design experience will lead to equipment that can take that level of usage.

The ibex RV is very likely to be wiped out in an instant, if I can afford it I would like to have heavier armor.

The reason you don't put tanks on patrol in rear areas, isn't because of damage to the TANK.  Figure this way: 60KPH is respectable (even FAST) for a tracked combat armored vehicle.  Civilian cars tend to do 60KPH by the time you're in second gear.

If you're using combat weapons to blow away freeway speeders, your freeways aren't gonna be useful for much of anything.  Likewise, tracked vees tend to chew the hell out of roads, pavements, low garden walls, houses, bicycles and people.

This isn't a big deal in combat, but in rear areas and peacetime, those can ramp up some truly awesome and amazing costs to your host nation (and by extension, YOU, since guess who's gotta carry the Liability insurance through MRBC?)

Notable also, dead customers don't pay, and many live ones won't pay if you have a habit of savaging their peacetime infrastructure and accidentally killing their taxpayers.

I'm sure some of the old Cold Warriors who ran riot in West Germany can tell you stories, but those don't even scratch the different legal and contractual elements you'd see as a Merc, given that as a Merc, you're not backed by a soveriegn government.

When the damage deposit starts exceeding your paydays, you are in that famous position of "about to lose a shit ton of money."

even Governments don't do it that way, because the costs are borne directly by them-and governments do not like to lose money through preventable accidents, not even the psychotic dictatorships.

(Dead taxpayers don't pay taxes, dead highway workers don't build roads, dead utilities workers don't fix power lines, get the idea?)

in "Rear areas" anything lightweight, wheeled-or-at-most-hover, with basic infantry weapons and a good radio is what you're going to use for peacetime patrol, because your war-gear is for fighting people with war-gear.  Specifically as a Mercenary, where every shot is money out of your bank, and pissing off your client when you don't absolutely have to hits your Rating (and thus, earning power and thus, ability to retain good people and obtain good gear).

Public relations, and public IMAGE matter.  If you develop a rep as blundering oafs who crush civilian cars at intersections and wreck towns and farmland, you won't stay in business long-you'll lose good recruits, you'll lose ethical and competent subordinates, you'll lose at the contract negotiating table.  You will lose MONEY.

which in turn, means you will lose to the guys who don't go roaring through downtown in their 60 ton war machines at rush hour, becayse they DO have the Humvee-like Ibex vehicles, and they DO park the 70 ton death machines in motorpools when they aren't preparing for immediate active  (read: PAYING) combat.



"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13081
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #54 on: 29 June 2019, 23:40:11 »
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7
Karnov UR Transport (Standard)
Hunter Light Support Tank (Standard)
Pegasus Scout Hover Tank (Missile)
Pegasus Scout Hover Tank (Standard)
Saladin Assault Hover Tank (Armor)
Saracen Medium Hover Tank (Standard)
Maxim Heavy Hover Transport (Standard)
Ballista Self-Propelled Artillery Tank (Standard)
Prowler Multi-Terrain Vehicle (Succession Wars)
Bulldog Medium Tank (LRM)
LRM Carrier (Standard)
Manticore Heavy Tank (Standard)
Thumper Artillery Vehicle (Standard)
Devastator Heavy Tank (Standard)
Partisan Heavy Tank (LRM)
Schrek PPC Carrier (Standard)
Mobile Long Tom Artillery LT-MOB-25
Behemoth Heavy Tank (Standard)

The above are some of my favorites to use.


Plus the Savannah Master & Ontos which should be on that list for Mercs as well.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #55 on: 02 July 2019, 03:50:38 »
If I use demi-companies of 3 'Mechs and 3 vehicles, and stuck to unit weighing between 40 and 80 tons, how many demi-companies do people thing I can afford on my budget?

winters_night

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #56 on: 23 July 2019, 23:45:41 »
Manticores have never let me down and are one of my go to tanks when trying to bulk out a force. In one of our longest campaigns early on we signed up a lance of Manticores to give our mechs so much needed oompf, randomly generated with mostly female crews we dubbed them Siren Squadron. They always performed excellently in battle and their shining moment was in a scenario where they had gotten separated from the main unit and required extraction, by the time our mechs got into range the Manticores had already claimed 3 lighter machines and chewed up a Shadow Hawk really well. The final total was 8 dead enemy mechs and one crippled Manticore with  2 others being heavily damaged, 5 of the kills going to the Manticores. Siren squadron ended that campaign as 2/3 with many many MANY kills to their names, Sadly the lead tank did finally suffer catastrophic damage at the hands of a Marauder with the deaths of the commander and driver

Bulldogs, and Saracens have always done us well too in play, none have ever been knockouts like the Manticores but always done heavy work when used well.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #57 on: 24 July 2019, 13:28:16 »
I'll agree with winters_night.  A Manticore supporting my 'Mechs has turned the tide in more than a few battles, and Saracens are regular parts of my mixed patrol lances (2 'Mechs, 2 vehicles), often blunting or even crushing the opponent's own scouting and maneuver elements, then providing mobile fire support against heavier forces.

I've used Bulldogs a few times, and they've typically proven quite effective as support units, although they never seem to perform as spectacularly as the previously mentioned units.  You just don't want your vehicles getting up front and taking massed fire from MLs and SRMs, because they WILL get immobilized, then killed if the crews don't bail.  'Mechs are far more resilient on the front line.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: What Vehicles Do You Take?
« Reply #58 on: 24 July 2019, 16:30:51 »
They are fine close to the frontline as long as the mech is more menacing . . . and knowing you are a combined arms force, you take out the mechs designed to deal with combined arms.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

Register