Clan Large Pulse Lasers

[Hellraiser]

--the pulse lasers WILL close into range in any normal map circumstance.

The only issue I have with this is that while you are balancing by tonnage here, at 6 tons for 1 LPL or 6 tons for ER large, DHS, and Tcomp, the tcomp is not exclusive to the ER large, and tonnage isnt a good balancing metric.

So while you show the ER Large winning at hexes 7,8,15, that is only because of the tcomp, which the LPL could also have for just a couple of tons.  And, if the ER large laser does get the tcomp and the LPL doesnt, the ER large now costs 310 BV compared to the LPL at 265.  So you pay 45 BV more with the ER large plus Tcomp, for a weapon combination that is worse-- 17 hexes versus 8

I feel like your not seeing my previous posts.

1.  Way up above I pointed out that the LPL isn't nearly as nasty IMHO as the MPL it was responded that this discussion is about long range sniping so your point about closing the distance which I happen to agree with, to the point of saying that neither the ERLL or LPL are the scary guns here, is moot according to others.

2.  I was responding to someone pointing out that the ERLL is only 4 tons so it doesn't really matter if you can stick a TC onto an LPL at that point your now dealing w/ 8 tons in a tonnage scenario & while tonnage isn't how most games are balanced it has to come into play if your discussing "best whatever" since part of that is how many of them your getting or what it costs you to get said uber-gun.

3.  I'm aware the BV isn't going to match, I'm also aware that BV is broken when it comes to "To-Hit" Mods in general.
If the BV was fixed then maybe the LPL wouldn't be so attractive.
But really, I'd still go back to #1 above & use close range weapons for less BV.
Heck, for 6 tons if I already have 10 DHS & can vent 20, I think I'd like to spend my 6 tons on 6 OG Medium Lasers & spam 30 damage a turn.

The point of this is that the Clan LPL is a solid generalist ranged gun.  But its not a boogey man "I win" button of a weapon.
It's "Heavy" for its damage & short ranged compared to most other sniper weapons, but it is accurate so that counts for a lot.
But in the typical BT game your likely to be operating at ranges where MLs of all types will get you better results.
And if you happen to be on a particularly large map there are other guns that out range it or don't need LOS.

The LPL excels in the 9-20 hex bracket where it manages to be quite a bit more accurate than the LRM/ERLL/ERPPC/Gauss but isn't outside of its own range while being at the limits of ML fire.
If you can keep your entire force in that 12 hex range band then it shines.   Closer or Farther & its not so ideal.

[DevianID]

The LPL vs MPL comes down to unit speed.  The issue with the LPL is that because it has good range, it is useful on slow mechs or fast mechs... its just always useful.  I agree with you that you can close the distance with long ranged mechs most of the time to bring mediums to bear, but in the case of the LPL you are consistently causing knockdowns and kill shots in just 1-2 turns if the enemy doesnt rush you.  The 4 ER large laser novacat, which is a great mech too, doesnt wrack up damage as fast as the 4 pulse laser rifleman, and when the enemy is point blank with speedy units the ER larges are still missing more then large pulse lasers.

I like MPLs better too, but the Rifleman IIC with 4 LPL allows me to be lazy, and just sit in heavy woods and blast away.  The MPLs on the Blackhawk/Nova S require me to move around a lot more, perhaps crossing a nomansland where the trees have been cleared, or exposing it to shorter range return fire or higher attacker movement modifiers.  So while the Nova S is a favorite mech of mine, the Rifleman IIC was so brainless it gets better results overall.  Fewer movement mistakes, and it has the range to force the enemy to close because they cant win ranged exchanges.

Thats usually why people tend to not mind inner sphere pulse lasers.  They are only scary on units with mobility.  The Wolverine 7k, or Wraith, make good use of the shorter ranged pulse, but the 4x pulse laser Marauder is less useful with the lower speed.  The 4 pulse marauder is still a good mech, but its harder to play then something with more speed like the wolverine or range like the clan pulse.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, compare LPL and MPL on here is like as discuss which is the better candinate for your army's standard sniper rifle, M4 versus M24. Good rate of fire(read; better damage per tonnage) doesn't matters and is disqualified as soon as it doesn't meet the required effective range. It does not means Clans MPL is not broken either, but both have the different job to do.

---------------------------

Also, while some weapons are outranges Clans LPL on paper, but are those weapons can hit anything on this 'outranged' distance? Unless the said unit is commanded by exceptionally good pilot? If they cannot hit anything while 'outranges' Clans LPL, then those are not actually outranges it at all.

[OatsAndHall]

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

He'll lay out the scenario but we roll to determine who plays what side of said-scenario. Depending on the dice roll, we may be defending a city or we may be attacking.

[Son of Kerenski]

Only if the pilot have sniper SPA, or have about gunnery of 2+ to 1+. +4 modifier to to-hit roll generally means it is unlikely to hit anything, or sometimes it's literally does by reach to above 12+(13+ or more is always miss, you know). Only the hit does matters. Thounsands of lethal attacks that simply missed is not harmful at all, and only an attack that hits is far powerful than that.

It sounds like you havent done the math. Gunnery 4 with CLPL at ranges 7-8 is a base 4 to hit before other factors (Pulse cancels out Med range). CLERLL at that range with Gunnery 4 is also a base 4 to hit before other factors. Exact same numbers. Will also be same numbers for both pilots (6 to hit) at range 15.

Well even at 12+ it's better than no attacks are allowed, though, but the distance that actually outranges LPL is not so long enough to actually have a meaningful outcome.

Had a tournament once where opponent parked his Rifleman IIC on a hill behind cover. And I knew he would make a beeline for that spot.

So I parked my entire force at 24 hexes which added up to be 6 CERLL's & some clusters which had 8 & 9's to hit first round and 7's and 8's following round. Did a stack of torso damage I took off one of his arms, and reduced his firepower to half (blew one of his arms off) before he was able to eventually return fire from abandoning his sniper spot (took 2 rounds to move 4 hexes as there was a sloping hill the other side).

I tend not to point out tactical advantages without having tried them in actual combat.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

It sounds like you havent done the math. Gunnery 4 with CLPL at ranges 7-8 is a base 4 to hit before other factors (Pulse cancels out Med range). CLERLL at that range with Gunnery 4 is also a base 4 to hit before other factors. Exact same numbers. Will also be same numbers for both pilots (6 to hit) at range 15.

That proves that it is I actually did math about this. You should continue the calculations and end the formula, rather than stop at the middle of the line and says that it's done.

For a gunnery 4+ pilot, with long range bracket penalty of +4 the pilot should have a 8+ to hit, sure. If that is nothing but target practice. The movement of both the attacker and the target is what you should consider. Even if the said pilot only use walk/cruise move, the difficulty is increased to 9+. That means, to hit modifier by the movement is +3 it means it's 12+, and +4 or more means the pilot is not able to hit the target at all. It is not something you rarely see, for +3 is only acquired by running/flanking move of 7+ or jump/airborne movement of 5+, that is even the heavy mechs/vehicles are able to reach without much problem - not to mention that even a 100 tonner mech can do this too, for they can use improved jump jet. And it's before think about the other factors such as cover, the attacker makes run or even jump. Even on the plain ground without any cover, that's the actual result of aiming against long range bracket.


Also you have an error on your math - while you did said 'cancels out' the pulse bonus on medium range, you did not puts the same penalty for the medium range either. Actually, only on 15 hexes it is true that those are all the same, sure, for it's the long range of CLPL and is the end of the medium range of CERLL. But that's only true at just 15 hex. On 16~20, CLPL have same difficulty to hit while CERLL suffers +2 to the difficulty, and on 14 or less hex, it's the medium range of CLPL. On 21+, either sides are unlikely to hit the adversary anyways, due to either out of range or have too much TMM to actually score a hit.

If two weapons are have the same chance to hit on a specific one point of range but on the other ranges one is always inferior to the other, then I don't think that 'one' have any advantage over 'the other'.

Had a tournament once where opponent parked his Rifleman IIC on a hill behind cover. And I knew he would make a beeline for that spot.

So I parked my entire force at 24 hexes which added up to be 6 CERLL's & some clusters which had 8 & 9's to hit first round and 7's and 8's following round. Did a stack of torso damage I took off one of his arms, and reduced his firepower to half (blew one of his arms off) before he was able to eventually return fire from abandoning his sniper spot (took 2 rounds to move 4 hexes as there was a sloping hill the other side).

I tend not to point out tactical advantages without having tried them in actual combat.

How it is possible to only need mere 8+ to 9+ to hit with those? Didn't either sides have moved their units?

[Son of Kerenski]

Also you have an error on your math - while you did said 'cancels out' the pulse bonus on medium range, you did not puts the same penalty for the medium range either. Actually, only on 15 hexes it is true that those are all the same, sure, for it's the long range of CLPL and is the end of the medium range of CERLL.

Im only arguing those range brackets so my math is sound. Which you also admitted.

How it is possible to only need mere 8+ to 9+ to hit with those? Didn't either sides have moved their units?

Nova Cat A has 4 ERLL + Tcomp. Septicemia Prime has 1ERLL & 1 HAG40 + Tcomp

My attackers have gunnery 3 and walked. His Rifleman moved only 1 hex up a hill behind cover.

Maybe you can work out the numbers?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Im only arguing those range brackets so my math is sound. Which you also admitted.

But that specific distance wasn't important at all in the first place. What's the point, then?

Nova Cat A has 4 ERLL + Tcomp. Septicemia Prime has 1ERLL & 1 HAG40 + Tcomp

My attackers have gunnery 3 and walked. His Rifleman moved only 1 hex up a hill behind cover.

Maybe you can work out the numbers?

So, it was come to the reality because of their short movement distance, then.

[OatsAndHall]

Im only arguing those range brackets so my math is sound. Which you also admitted.

Nova Cat A has 4 ERLL + Tcomp. Septicemia Prime has 1ERLL & 1 HAG40 + Tcomp

My attackers have gunnery 3 and walked. His Rifleman moved only 1 hex up a hill behind cover.

Maybe you can work out the numbers?

IME, it's poor movement choices like this that tend to spur on arguments in most games. Arguments that get worse if CLPL and/or TCs are involved. An individual we removed from our gaming group (I've talked about him in other threads) had a tantrum in a situation like this. I don't remember all of the specifics, other than he got popped at around 20 hexes on easy rolls (might've been 7+) by 3-4 ERLL because he moved his mech two hexes, up onto a level 2. He was completely exposed with a garbage MM and got pissed when he paid for it. The numbers were run for him several times, his poor choice tactfully explained to him yet it was still a circus.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah, that's because of the bad move by an unexpected situation of the player(that did not check the LoS and the chance of got exposed properly), rather than a proof of degrade the usefulness of CLPL.

Such things could happens, yes, for we all could make the mistake. But if you expect something like this all the times, you are just wrong about this - usually people are not so stupid enough to keep do this again and again, so you better not to underestimate the human opponent like that.

[OatsAndHall]

Yeah, that's because of the bad move by an unexpected situation of the player(that did not check the LoS and the chance of got exposed properly), rather than a proof of degrade the usefulness of CLPL.

Such things could happens, yes, for we all could make the mistake. But if you expect something like this all the times, you are just wrong about this - usually people are not so stupid enough to keep do this again and again, so you better not to underestimate the human opponent like that.

We've brought in quite a few new players over the last three years. The first lesson we try to teach them is to avoid overexposing themselves, especially early in the game. We want them to learn to play cautiously and defensively while they grasp the basics of the game. We emphasize maximizing MP, moving in a way that gives cover or removes LOS, etc..etc...

Most of the new players we get in figure this out quickly although we do have a few who get impatient and pay for it. My best gaming-friend is that way. At least once a game, he'll give me an easy, murderous equation on a couple of his mechs, because he's gotten bored and rushed in.

[General308]

You could use like 4 tubes of Artillery to deal with the Clan Large Pulse laser. 

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

You could use like 4 tubes of Artillery to deal with the Clan Large Pulse laser. 

Problem is it is a solution for any other non-artillery standard armor grade weapon and is not without problem, so it's not a good solution actually. It's like as the best way to beat a mech is bring a warship and shoot its dropship. It's something like easier said than done too. Remember that it was that easy to be applied then there is no needs for a ground armor in the first place.

[General308]

Problem is it is a solution for any other non-artillery standard armor grade weapon and is not without problem, so it's not a good solution actually. It's like as the best way to beat a mech is bring a warship and shoot its dropship. It's something like easier said than done too. Remember that it was that easy to be applied then there is no needs for a ground armor in the first place.

Not why I picked it though.  I picked it because he has another thread started about wanting to keep artillery out of the game.      It seems he and is group are just at that point were they are still learning how to deal with other things.   

Reality is reading through this he thinks his GM build senerios that almost require LPL's which of course isn't true.    He just realizes they are a really good weapons and likes to use them is the reality of it.  Which is fine.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Not why I picked it though.  I picked it because he has another thread started about wanting to keep artillery out of the game.      It seems he and is group are just at that point were they are still learning how to deal with other things.   

Reality is reading through this he thinks his GM build senerios that almost require LPL's which of course isn't true.    He just realizes they are a really good weapons and likes to use them is the reality of it.  Which is fine.

Artillery is something not gonna be a preferable choice on battletech, because of its complicated and hard to use rules, as well as its inefficient performance on gameplay. After all, the game is already not meant to be played on the larger size unless you play it by a computer program such as megamek, but put the artillery rule on it makes the game even worse.

At first artillery is surely not a solution for the both topics of OP, for it's too inefficient to solve the issue. Unless you can get the good battery for free, without pay for extra BV, thus solve the issue by spend zero BV and cost. Although I wonder that how much effort would be required to actually solve the issue, and also wonder that it would be actually 'solves' the issue too.

edit: Also 'the another thread' you mean wasn't actually about the artillery, despite of the name of the topic. And OP did asked that artillery would be useful for the situation rather than not to add that(and the reason to hesitated to add that was not something you insist), which is the only tie with the topic and artillery, along with the name of the topic.

[General308]

Artillery is something not gonna be a preferable choice on battletech, because of its complicated and hard to use rules, as well as its inefficient performance on gameplay. After all, the game is already not meant to be played on the larger size unless you play it by a computer program such as megamek, but put the artillery rule on it makes the game even worse.

I am going to disagree on both of these one BT really doesn't hit isn't own to you play on some larger size playing areas.  Then a lot of units that don't in little battlefields start making sense.   Two artillrey is actually quit fun to use on the battlefield.  Would I use it on a 1X1 map game no.   But honstly I would rather not play than play on such a small playing area.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I am going to disagree on both of these one BT really doesn't hit isn't own to you play on some larger size playing areas.  Then a lot of units that don't in little battlefields start making sense.   Two artillrey is actually quit fun to use on the battlefield.  Would I use it on a 1X1 map game no.   But honstly I would rather not play than play on such a small playing area.

The funny thing is on 1x1 map the artillery would see its uses mostly, although it also causes massive amount of friendly fire meanwhile. Well it is unlikely to have a debate for the uses of 1x1 map on here. To me 1x1 isn't something even playable unless all the units both players will play is the infantry.

The size of the map is not my concern on here, though. Did you think that the size means the size of the map? Then it's sorry for that's not I want to mean - it's the size of the unit, the level of formation on each force. Perhaps a lance of armor would be playable, but I doubt for the battalion of those.

Well, TAG guided ammunition does exists thats an another topic, right? For it needs the actual hit of TAG, of the ground/aerospace units on there. Also as I know no TAG guided ammunitions have the blast radius of 1 or more.

[Charistoph]

I don't know.  Friendly fire's not so bad if you can see the Hex you're hitting.  A +3 is MUCH easier to hit than a +7, after all.

The only question is in weird situations where a nearby hex may cause a hex to be unseeable due to its Level.  I've posted the question up board, but haven't gotten an answer yet.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I was think about offboard artillery so I was assumed +7 rather than +4.