Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?

[RoundTop]

I don't want to comment on these thread (as I tend to be biased), but I had a discussion with Brent (Line Developer) about this topic last year at Mech-Con.

I'm going to paraphrase him here. The problem at retailers is there was no way to hook people in who aren't already playing the game. With no entry products, the shelf space gets minimized, and less existing players come in. When fighting against the other releases that have this, it is a hard sell for a retailer.  This is why there is a focus on the two new boxes. The cheap easy to introduce Beginner's Box, and the more expensive Game of Armored Combat box. It is a good 1, 2, 3 (BattleMech Manual/Total Warfare) steps, which retailers have been asking for. This is why it is so critical that we get these properly into stores, at the same time, and they sell quickly. It helps Catalyst, it helps produce more products, and it helps retailers give it more shelf space, as they don't want to give space to something that will sit for months without selling.

The upcoming map sheet products are meant to extend that line, so that as players mature, they can get more varied maps to play with.

[Androsynth]

I'm going to paraphrase him here. The problem at retailers is there was no way to hook people in who aren't already playing the game. With no entry products, the shelf space gets minimized, and less existing players come in. When fighting against the other releases that have this, it is a hard sell for a retailer.  This is why there is a focus on the two new boxes. The cheap easy to introduce Beginner's Box, and the more expensive Game of Armored Combat box. It is a good 1, 2, 3 (BattleMech Manual/Total Warfare) steps, which retailers have been asking for. This is why it is so critical that we get these properly into stores, at the same time, and they sell quickly. It helps Catalyst, it helps produce more products, and it helps retailers give it more shelf space, as they don't want to give space to something that will sit for months without selling.

That makes a ton of sense, and I would have bought one immediately upon deciding to jump back in. Good to know.

[Crimson Dawn]

I wish I had some of your confidence.  I live in the Cleveland metro and we have many gaming stores RPG and wargame and I have only found one that carries any Battletech products at all (old or not as old) and it was also the only one who knew anything about it (most people when I bring the game up give me really blank stares, sometimes it helps if I bring up Mechwarrior computer games). 

New content to sell would be a big potential way of helping but I do feel that there may be some investment needed to make that success happen because I think the game will need people at the local level willing and wanting to push it to their communities (and to show how it plays).  It would be interesting to know which stores would pick up the game when new content comes out and how they handle it.  Do they just put it on the shelf and see if anybody wants it or do they have it set out with somebody who knows how to play (and at some of these stores do they have anybody who is confident enough that they can show off the game well or do they just put the stuff out and say "figure it out").

[Colt Ward]

Ithe game will need people at the local level willing and wanting to push it to their communities (and to show how it plays).  It would be interesting to know which stores would pick up the game when new content comes out and how they handle it.  Do they just put it on the shelf and see if anybody wants it or do they have it set out with somebody who knows how to play (and at some of these stores do they have anybody who is confident enough that they can show off the game well or do they just put the stuff out and say "figure it out").

They have that, its called Agents . . . I think we have 3 or 4 in our state with maybe another in the works.  They all show up for SoonerCon, we had a state-wide event two years ago, and I know there is discussion of another one in the FB group.  The FB group posts notices of games- which lets players know when they might travel a bit to drop in among a different group of players- and we post pictures of game nights or painting projects.

[ActionButler]

Which gets back to what I was trying to get at earlier that ANY new intro content, new rules or not, is going to be a good thing.

We aren't going to hook any new players if we can't get new intro products on the shelves AND be able to restock when the sell out.  That's why all of the hype about the new boxes does give me some optimism.  It is not the direction that I, personally, want to see the game go (a newer, faster, more modern ruleset) but at least it is SOME direction (a direction, I might add, that includes awesome, shiny new art, new mech sculpts, and new maps). 

The fact of the matter is that all of this stuff costs time and money to produce.  Right now, regardless of what anyone thinks about the gaming needing an update or not, we have the CBT rules and Alpha Strike.  Those are our resources and those are what we need to be able to work with for the time being.  As much as I (and others, I think) think that newer faster rules would be better for the long term sustainability of the game, let's focus on getting people playing with the rules we have first.  Do grinder games work well for getting people interested in our game?  I have no idea, but it sounds like they might be a good way to demo the rules.  Great!  Let's roll with that!  Lets use that!  Buy some intro boxes, photocopy the bejeebers out of the record sheets, slap some paint on the minis, and run some grinder games at your FLGS.  If those turn out to be to slow for modern gamers?  Hello there, free Basic Alpha Strike rules and MUL cards that match the mech minis in the intro boxes.  Surely, between one of those two extremes of slow granular play and zippy fast play, there is a game in there that can appeal to modern audiences. 

Once we have a new generation of players, and CGL has a new, reliable cash flow from the intro products, then we can worry about other things, like new rules (or not), more sourcebooks (or not), newer mech sculpts (or not), and getting a TRO-canon Piranha IIC. 

[Crimson Dawn]

They have that, its called Agents . . . I think we have 3 or 4 in our state with maybe another in the works.  They all show up for SoonerCon, we had a state-wide event two years ago, and I know there is discussion of another one in the FB group.  The FB group posts notices of games- which lets players know when they might travel a bit to drop in among a different group of players- and we post pictures of game nights or painting projects.

I knew that there were people at cons but that is really neat if they go around more locally.  I will have to see if any are going to do anything in the Cleveland OH area on a date that I can actually go.  My wife and I would love some time playing with people that can help lead the game and she would really like painting with some people (I am not an arts and crafts person).

[Foxx Ital]

Having trouble finding where to look if my state has a demo agent.

[Fear Factory]

What I can say is that, as a player from he early 2000's who quit because of the increasing amount of stuff and rules, yes, I am disappointed that progress in Battletech mostly seems to mean adding more stuff to the game.  I understand why it is done, but I still wish it wasn't that way.  The more things that get added, the more difficult it will be for new folls to join the game, even if you start them in 3025 and let them get used to the new stuff.  Is it impossible for new people to join? No, of course not.  Is it difficult? Yes.  Is it more difficult than many of the big name tabletop games out there that people have gotten used to?  Yes.

It seems that you and I are on the same page here.  After a lot of the games I played (around the time you were playing in the early 2000's) the group I had disbanded.  The game just took too long and it was just not compatible with our lives...  older we got, more responsibilities, less time to spend on the hobby.

That, then raises a Big Scary Question... should Battletech abandon its model and move to something more familiar to modern gamers? I don't know.  I have never seem a sales figure for Battletech in my life.  Do I wish it would adopt a model more familiar with modern gamers that drew in new blood? Yes.

*SNIP*

BattleTech needs to evolve in a way that will not remove the core aspects of the game we enjoy.  Abou and I are working on a way to achieve this so we can actually enjoy this game again and get new people to play.

Sadly, I don't think the new box sets are going to achieve anything but the same old.  All of us old players are going to buy it, some new people will get it, the game goes stagnant again.  Just polishing it up isn't going to cut it anymore.  Honestly, Total Warfare is a good example of polish.  Like you, I have not seen sales numbers, but I remember a lot of backlash because of how it just made the game so overwhelming.  Combined arms warfare for a game that takes FOREVER to play was a terrible idea to draw new people in.  Especially when vehicles and infantry get a boost.  I tried.  None of my friends could get back into it.  The BattleMech Manual is a good step, but what does it really offer?  It's the same old stuff!  New age players do not like the rules, I can't get people into the game as it stands, how is polish going to draw them in?  This new material had some really good opportunities here to actually get something done (just some examples):

- Make Autocannons more useful by boosting damage.  I'm sick of hearing "oh, well they're good on vehicles!" when the game is about BATTLEMECHS.
- Streamline weapons ranges so they make more sense (Think Aerotech range brackets).  Alpha Strike is MUCH faster than BattleTech because of this alone.
- Streamline combat and movement (Think Alpha Strike movement modes and modifiers).  Again, Alpha Strike is faster.  Counting hexes takes too long because naturally players are going to min/max to get the best modifier.  Having to time people/force a move is a flaw of the game, not the people playing it because they are "too slow."

You can leave hit locations, heat, etc.  AND get this, all of that above, is basically how the new PC game works.  And it works pretty well, IMO.

Also, bad timing on the box sets too, because while people were scooping the new game up on steam Catalyst could have actually put out box sets beforehand.  An advertisement in the MechCommander box AND an available copy of 4th edition got me into BattleTech.  I'm sure it would have worked out well to have something out before the PC game.

I love this game.  I really, really, do.  But something needs to change.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As long as we are being anecdotal, I really think that B-Tech needs some help in the 21st century.  Areas where battletech are thriving do not appear to be the norm.

If I have time, when I go on vacations, I like to stop into as many Gaming stores as possible looking for not just Battletech but older used games.  A couple years ago, I went to Virginia beach. I took one rainy day and called and went around to all the Gaming/Comic stores that I could come up with in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Williamsburg, and all the way to Richmond.  I found one store with battletech and they were trying to get rid of the mini box sets dirt cheap.

I also live on the I-81 corridor in Virginia.  There are 3 gaming stores within 45 minutes of my house.  None of them carry battletech.  An hour + into Northern VA will get me a store that carries minimal battletech, 2 books and some box sets, and has a group that used to meet Mondays though it appears that they've stopped doing that.

Northern VA is a very affluent area.  Many people have the disposable income to spend on wargames but they don't appear to be spending it on Battletech.

I know theis doesn't mean much to people who don't live in Virginia but basically I've been up and down the east coast of the state and have found 2 stores with Battletech (maybe 3, for some reason I think there was a store in Fairfax that had some Battletech but it isn't popping into my mind at work) and none of those stores had quantities that indicate that they were supporting the game or the game was thriving in their area.

The thing is, that's nothing new.  My area's been like that for basically the entire 21st Century: my local store wouldn't order Battletech product if I offered to pay 100% in advance.  There's only one store in my state that I'm aware carries a significant amount of Battletech product and that's because the local Demo Agent has done a lot of games there.

This is discouraging, yes, but it's not a good sign that the game's about to go under.  Having brick & mortar game stores has gotten expensive and a lot of them have responded by only stocking the stuff that sells the best, like D&D, CCGs, and Hero Clix.  Battletech's been a niche game for 30 years so it's not getting dedicated shelf space like other games.

And while we're sharing anecdotes, one of my friends was over in Hawaii for the last three weeks.  Yes, on the island with the volcano.  He taught the 13 year old son of the friend he was visiting to play Battletech.  Said son promptly taught his friends at school how to play, and now it's what they're doing after school, apparently.

[Androsynth]

The thing is, that's nothing new.  My area's been like that for basically the entire 21st Century: my local store wouldn't order Battletech product if I offered to pay 100% in advance.  There's only one store in my state that I'm aware carries a significant amount of Battletech product and that's because the local Demo Agent has done a lot of games there.

Yeah there's some truth there.  Companies like GMT or Victory Point games are thriving (hell, GMT has like 50+ games they print now) but you'll almost never see them in stores. The brick and mortar places cater to the CCG/Warhammer/Star Wars crowd primarily.

Like it or not, Battletech isn't in the category of 'pick up and play' anymore, though it certainly was (compared to all the crazy complex Avalon Hill style stuff popular when it came out) once. Due to the older mechanics it has, it fits into more of the 'ameritrash' style sci fi wargame category these days, just a lot more sheet and dice heavy than is popular these days. That complexity won't scare off dedicated grognards, but it certainly is not going to appeal to the CCG crowd. Which, after thinking about it, maybe isn't a bad thing. GMT does this whole pre-order to fund thing that works very well for small designers. I wonder if something similar would work to fund BT expansions?

[Colt Ward]

Lol, I would LOVE to see a kickstarter for Clan AS Star Packs . . . but I am pretty sure based on past comments that sort of project is a no-go.  Which might be sad as we see a lot of stuff shifting to that sort of funding model.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Random thought as well: I'd love to be a Demo Agent (hahahaha yeah right Tyler: not with RL, School, and work) and introduce new people to BT.... but the two local stores (within 30 minutes of me) are very unfriendly. Theirs two stores within an hour of me that I haven't checked out (and will be doing sometime this summer). Then of course I could try driving two hours to NYC or 2-3 to Boston... not really applicable.

As such I play with the half dozen around here , mostly three older 90's players and two my age and maybe another friend or two I rope in from time to time. Most of those guys are Warhammer or X-Wing players so they don't mind the change up.

Hopefully when the new boxes come out my local stores might start carrying them and I might have new people to play/teach (albeit badly lol).

[Paul]

Well, they can be unfriendly, but that doesn't have to be an obstacle.
As long as they give you permission to run events at their store, you're set. Schedule events with them, try to advertise it as best you can (on here, and maybe there's some local facebook groups or whatever you can also use).

If they see they can rely on you running stuff, and if they start getting more questions from players wanting to buy BT, they should likely become less unfriendly.

As for the demands on your time: yeah, that's not irrelevant. Just remember: while monthly events might be great, the CDT doesn't demand that to stay active. IIRC it's 6 events per year, while you still retain some access at 3 per year.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Well, they can be unfriendly, but that doesn't have to be an obstacle.
As long as they give you permission to run events at their store, you're set. Schedule events with them, try to advertise it as best you can (on here, and maybe there's some local facebook groups or whatever you can also use).

If they see they can rely on you running stuff, and if they start getting more questions from players wanting to buy BT, they should likely become less unfriendly.

As for the demands on your time: yeah, that's not irrelevant. Just remember: while monthly events might be great, the CDT doesn't demand that to stay active. IIRC it's 6 events per year, while you still retain some access at 3 per year.

Thanks for the advice (seriously) , but the one owner owns both stores... and frankly I really would not like to work with the guy. I don't know a lot about business but the guy doesn't seem to be running a good one. Problem is he's got a monopoly on the area and ... well we're stuck with him.

Anyways like I said maybe when the new sets come out I'll ask around and reconsider because it would be an excellent time.

[Paul]

Thanks for the advice (seriously) , but the one owner owns both stores... and frankly I really would not like to work with the guy. I don't know a lot about business but the guy doesn't seem to be running a good one. Problem is he's got a monopoly on the area and ... well we're stuck with him.

Yeah, I don't know your situation, so that might be a major obstacle. You're trying to do something fun in your own spare time, so if some random dude adds to the amount of grief you have to go through, I think that's a valid reason to find something else to do with your time.

But if your interaction with him can basically be confined to just getting a date to run an event from him, maybe that's tolerable. Feel free to PM me if you want some specific advice, but I won't think less of you if it's just something you don't want to deal with, for reasons that don't have to be in a public forum. You don't owe me an explanation, just seeking to remove some obstacles.

Anyways like I said maybe when the new sets come out I'll ask around and reconsider because it would be an excellent time.

Yeah, that'd be a great time for it.
If the CDT runs another WWE (worldwide event) this year, that might also be a good reason to give it a swing.

[Hythos]

Having trouble finding where to look if my state has a demo agent.

Demo Agents have some contact info, so one of us could look in your area for one if you PM one of us with tan Battlemaster badges... (Or me).

There is hope that the Player Finder (part of the Catalyst  Demo Team website) may some day get some funding / rework, but for now, we have the 'find a game' forum section.

[ActionButler]

Thanks for the advice (seriously) , but the one owner owns both stores... and frankly I really would not like to work with the guy. I don't know a lot about business but the guy doesn't seem to be running a good one. Problem is he's got a monopoly on the area and ... well we're stuck with him.

Someone may have to correct me, but I was under the impression that Demo Agents are not required to run their demo games at a FLGS.  Doing so makes things easier (more foot traffic that is already interested in boardgames, access to books and minis for potential new buyers, etc), but that isn't actually mandatory.

Again, I may be completely wrong about that.

It seems that you and I are on the same page here.  After a lot of the games I played (around the time you were playing in the early 2000's) the group I had disbanded.  The game just took too long and it was just not compatible with our lives...  older we got, more responsibilities, less time to spend on the hobby.

Exactly

BattleTech needs to evolve in a way that will not remove the core aspects of the game we enjoy.  Abou and I are working on a way to achieve this so we can actually enjoy this game again and get new people to play.

Sadly, I don't think the new box sets are going to achieve anything but the same old.  All of us old players are going to buy it, some new people will get it, the game goes stagnant again.  Just polishing it up isn't going to cut it anymore.  Honestly, Total Warfare is a good example of polish.  Like you, I have not seen sales numbers, but I remember a lot of backlash because of how it just made the game so overwhelming.  Combined arms warfare for a game that takes FOREVER to play was a terrible idea to draw new people in.  Especially when vehicles and infantry get a boost.  I tried.  None of my friends could get back into it.  The BattleMech Manual is a good step, but what does it really offer?  It's the same old stuff!  New age players do not like the rules, I can't get people into the game as it stands, how is polish going to draw them in?  This new material had some really good opportunities here to actually get something done (just some examples):

- Make Autocannons more useful by boosting damage.  I'm sick of hearing "oh, well they're good on vehicles!" when the game is about BATTLEMECHS.
- Streamline weapons ranges so they make more sense (Think Aerotech range brackets).  Alpha Strike is MUCH faster than BattleTech because of this alone.
- Streamline combat and movement (Think Alpha Strike movement modes and modifiers).  Again, Alpha Strike is faster.  Counting hexes takes too long because naturally players are going to min/max to get the best modifier.  Having to time people/force a move is a flaw of the game, not the people playing it because they are "too slow."

You can leave hit locations, heat, etc.  AND get this, all of that above, is basically how the new PC game works.  And it works pretty well, IMO.

Also, bad timing on the box sets too, because while people were scooping the new game up on steam Catalyst could have actually put out box sets beforehand.  An advertisement in the MechCommander box AND an available copy of 4th edition got me into BattleTech.  I'm sure it would have worked out well to have something out before the PC game.

I love this game.  I really, really, do.  But something needs to change.

Skimming over that thread, I really like a lot of those changes.  I have taken the Alpha Strike stats for units and basically used them as the basis for a heavily homebrewed version of a certain other tabletop wargame (rhymes with... Hemoir '44...).  Among other things, I've kept criticals and heat, removed hit locations (for now), and made terrain effects on LOS and movement an all-or-nothing affair.  It is vastly simpler than what I imagine most people here would want to play, but it works well for family game night.

[JadeHellbringer]

Someone may have to correct me, but I was under the impression that Demo Agents are not required to run their demo games at a FLGS.  Doing so makes things easier (more foot traffic that is already interested in boardgames, access to books and minis for potential new buyers, etc), but that isn't actually mandatory.

Games put together to just roll some dice, sure, run them wherever you want. Official events though have to be at a game store or other approved location (unless that rule changed without my realizing it).

[Hythos]

Games put together to just roll some dice, sure, run them wherever you want. Official events though have to be at a game store or other approved location (unless that rule changed without my realizing it).

I think the wording was to facilitate an environment to where anyone of the public could join, and while still possible at one's own private residence or location, it's up to a comfort issue of having 'strangers in yer crib'...

[omega2010]

I would certainly love some cross promotion (like a new sourcebook or scenarios) with the HBS Battletech game (which is great by the way) but I do understand that it's tough to coordinate these things.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think the wording was to facilitate an environment to where anyone of the public could join, and while still possible at one's own private residence or location, it's up to a comfort issue of having 'strangers in yer crib'...

I'd imagine that there's also a bit of an attempt to discourage demo agents from having "official" games at home with a couple friends and splitting up the prize support among themselves.

While I've never heard of any such dishonesty among demo agents, I have heard of it happening with a few other games.

[RoundTop]

I'd imagine that there's also a bit of an attempt to discourage demo agents from having "official" games at home with a couple friends and splitting up the prize support among themselves.

While I've never heard of any such dishonesty among demo agents, I have heard of it happening with a few other games.

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!! "Prize support".  don't make me laugh.

Demo agents don't get prize support (Note: This is different than the old Wizkids Mechwarrior clix GM program, which did have prize support).  All our gear is provided on our own dime, by us, for wanting to support the game.

We get three "perks" for being a demo agent. #1: a discount from Iron Wind Metals (so we can build up our demo forces), #2: PDF copies of some rulebooks / releases (so we can check rules), and #3: Ability to do con support for Catalyst at conventions they attend.

It is more to prevent people abusing #1. Get a small gaming group, game in a house, and club together to buy stuff at discount.  But other than that, it is about getting new people in. Doing a game in a house isn't going to do that.

[Colt Ward]

Something else to consider might be libraries and community centers, depending on the facility they have rooms that can be taken/requested for activities.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!! "Prize support".  don't make me laugh.

Demo agents don't get prize support (Note: This is different than the old Wizkids Mechwarrior clix GM program, which did have prize support).  All our gear is provided on our own dime, by us, for wanting to support the game.

We get three "perks" for being a demo agent. #1: a discount from Iron Wind Metals (so we can build up our demo forces), #2: PDF copies of some rulebooks / releases (so we can check rules), and #3: Ability to do con support for Catalyst at conventions they attend.

It is more to prevent people abusing #1. Get a small gaming group, game in a house, and club together to buy stuff at discount.  But other than that, it is about getting new people in. Doing a game in a house isn't going to do that.

Huh.  The demo agent I play with made it sound like he was given free stuff for prizes at tournaments.  Guess I misunderstood.

[RoundTop]

Huh.  The demo agent I play with made it sound like he was given free stuff for prizes at tournaments.  Guess I misunderstood.

Not at all. This was the case for old Wizkids Mechwarrior clix game GMs back in the day (I was one of those), but that required a game store to vouch for you, and it would be shipped to the game store.   I heard of a few people back then that would register their house as a store and themselves as the GM, but it wasn't super easy (unless you knew a game store that would lie for you).  Those ones WK sent pins each month as well as normally 3 Limited edition prizes per store.

[JadeHellbringer]

Huh.  The demo agent I play with made it sound like he was given free stuff for prizes at tournaments.  Guess I misunderstood.

It's not totally unheard of, but it isn't supplied by Catalyst or any of that. It comes from our own pocket. I've had a prize for something like a grinder or Solaris Melee Challenge event be a miniature painted by yours truly (for all the good a prize like THAT is) and the like, but it's always on my own dime. Which I don't mind doing now and then, but it's not like I'm getting tons of cash and products dropped on me from higher-up to hand out.

[Drewbacca]

It's not totally unheard of, but it isn't supplied by Catalyst or any of that. It comes from our own pocket. I've had a prize for something like a grinder or Solaris Melee Challenge event be a miniature painted by yours truly (for all the good a prize like THAT is) and the like, but it's always on my own dime. Which I don't mind doing now and then, but it's not like I'm getting tons of cash and products dropped on me from higher-up to hand out.

You mean you don't give out Hellbie Dice?

[Weirdo]

It's not totally unheard of, but it isn't supplied by Catalyst or any of that. It comes from our own pocket. I've had a prize for something like a grinder or Solaris Melee Challenge event be a miniature painted by yours truly (for all the good a prize like THAT is) and the like, but it's always on my own dime. Which I don't mind doing now and then, but it's not like I'm getting tons of cash and products dropped on me from higher-up to hand out.

Stress is getting such a prize finished before the game, then watching the barometer rapidly climb way too high for sealing and stay there up through the night before the game. :bang: Awesome spouse is letting you spray indoors just this one time. :smitten:

You mean you don't give out Hellbie Dice?

Well yeah, but right now we're talking about the prize given to the winners. :)

[RoundTop]

You mean you don't give out Hellbie Dice?

I call those my TAC dice. :)

[Drewbacca]

That would work.