Author Topic: The *literally* Never-Seen  (Read 161252 times)

truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #150 on: 06 December 2018, 22:20:25 »
Record sheets Volume Five...

Need to get all these into modern stats, meaning we have the Skimmer and Jet Sled but no current modern stats.

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Matti

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #151 on: 06 December 2018, 23:56:32 »
I had thought all the examples mentioned in DaTR were hover?
No; one is 6-wheeled vehicle with PPC on top of it. Grayson used it to shoot a 'Mech (Wasp or Locust) on the leg. Also 'Mech recovery vehicle is wheeled. Do I need to look up page numbers for that?
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #152 on: 07 December 2018, 05:14:05 »
In decision at thunder rift there are wheeled PPC carriers. It is in the city battle. Grayson first takes on a wasp mounted Don a hover with a HMG. Then 3 wheeled PPC carriers appear. They are ICE powered, since they take a while to recharge after each shot. Those are the ones used to corner Lori Kalmar.

It is the best battle scene in the book by far since it looks realistic in the universe.

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #153 on: 07 December 2018, 10:03:34 »
Also 'Mech recovery vehicle is wheeled. Do I need to look up page numbers for that?

Both the BM Recovery Vehicle (50) and Heavy BM Recovery Vehicle (70) have TRO entries.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech_Recovery_Vehicle
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truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #154 on: 07 December 2018, 14:14:27 »
Could the 3 Wheelers be the Infantry Mobile PPC found under the download on front page of this forum.... Infantry TechManual v.3?

TT
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Matti

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #155 on: 07 December 2018, 15:13:57 »
Could the 3 Wheelers be the Infantry Mobile PPC found under the download on front page of this forum.... Infantry TechManual v.3?
I don't understand. Link plz.
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truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #156 on: 07 December 2018, 15:50:29 »
Particle Cannon (Support)* IS / Clan (D) Medium / Support (E) 3 1.58 1,800.0 kg / 25 kg (150) 5

* The Support Particle Cannon is considered to be a vehicle in itself, with an effective MP of 2 (Tracked); it may thus only be employed by Motorized/Mechanized (Tracked) infantry platoons.

While it states Tracked, this could be either a wheeled version, locally produced.

Revised Infantry Equipment tables for TechManual (Revised 9 December 2017)

Errata, mainpage...

TT
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Matti

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #157 on: 08 December 2018, 00:40:38 »
Errata, mainpage...
Got it. Your comment about the forum confused me.
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truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #158 on: 08 December 2018, 00:46:06 »
Sorry...

It might be because the original specs where not given and later were.

Consider how we just had a only three types of infantry to play with and when 3085 came out, not only did we have MORE 3025 era infantry than before, we had upgrades as well...

2 MP is faster than Foot infantry....

TT
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truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #159 on: 14 December 2018, 15:49:06 »
Just to clarify things, when mentioned in the book, 3 wheeler PPC carriers could be a Tacked Trike mounting the said weapon.

Which is why I suggested the Infantry version. It moves 2 a turn,, but y'all missing the point... It was a City Battle, meaning it was most likely moving 3 hexes a turn! Light enough to be carried, but still fast enough to get a +1 modifier. Since Infantry still get their 360 firing bonuses...

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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beachhead1985

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #160 on: 19 December 2018, 10:49:13 »
Just to clarify things, when mentioned in the book, 3 wheeler PPC carriers could be a Tacked Trike mounting the said weapon.

Which is why I suggested the Infantry version. It moves 2 a turn,, but y'all missing the point... It was a City Battle, meaning it was most likely moving 3 hexes a turn! Light enough to be carried, but still fast enough to get a +1 modifier. Since Infantry still get their 360 firing bonuses...

TT

Geeze guys what are we into though for a small ICE vehicle mounting a PPC? That's 17 tons of weapon and heat sinks right there, plus...2(?) more for the power amp? Not that we wouldn't see that in the BTU; but we're into a rather large vehicle at that stage, no?

Seems we do need more variants of the HVWC though and I checked: I have *various* different rules interpretations for the MW1 vehicles under modern rules, but none are canon.

PROBLEM and serious one at that: Are TPTB precluded from canonizing a fan design, even if it's the only way to do it, within a narrow ruleset?
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #161 on: 19 December 2018, 12:03:08 »
Geeze guys what are we into though for a small ICE vehicle mounting a PPC? That's 17 tons of weapon and heat sinks right there, plus...2(?) more for the power amp? Not that we wouldn't see that in the BTU; but we're into a rather large vehicle at that stage, no?

At 2/3 I can get it onto a 30-ton wheeled vee with 4.5t armor. Small enough to have a crew of 2 under the rules. 3/5 requires 35 tons and has room for a machine gun. That's not fast, but fast enough for an urban ambush wagon. And cost is under a half-mil so I can see a vee like that being expendible enough to issue them to infantry units as StuG-type assault guns.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Sabelkatten

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #162 on: 19 December 2018, 13:08:46 »
I think the PPC carriers in the city battle was supposed to carry support PPCs. IIRC they shoot Lori's Locust a couple of times with them? Locusts don't get shot multiple times by full-sized PPCs and keep fighting... ;)

When I set up that scenario a long time ago I cheated and used MLs fluffed as "small PPCs".

The_Caveman

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #163 on: 19 December 2018, 16:14:23 »
I think the PPC carriers in the city battle was supposed to carry support PPCs. IIRC they shoot Lori's Locust a couple of times with them? Locusts don't get shot multiple times by full-sized PPCs and keep fighting... ;)

When I set up that scenario a long time ago I cheated and used MLs fluffed as "small PPCs".

That is possible.

I always wondered why we never got the support PPC as a half-ton class 'Mech weapon (which I suppose is tangentially on-topic, being a thing in-universe but never seen). Say, 2 heat, 2 damage, 2/5/7 range. Wouldn't exactly make the medium laser obsolete, but it'd be a great secondary for light 'Mechs. A Locust with 4 S-PPCs in place of the MGs and ammo would be a hoot.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #164 on: 19 December 2018, 16:31:16 »
Seems a little too good compared to the ER Small laser.
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The_Caveman

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #165 on: 19 December 2018, 16:35:45 »
Seems a little too good compared to the ER Small laser.

I blame that on the IS ERSL being a bad joke.

Aside from the heat, those are the stats of the Battle Armor version of the S-PPC (which weighs less than the BA ERSL).

Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #166 on: 19 December 2018, 17:13:25 »
Well, the BA ER Small is a bad joke. ;)
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Daryk

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #167 on: 19 December 2018, 17:53:58 »
With a 7 range, I think it would obsolete the vanilla Small Laser.

The_Caveman

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #168 on: 19 December 2018, 18:06:36 »
Aye, there's the rub.

Except I think the changes to infantry damage rules already took care of that. In the bad old days, where PBI were the one-legged man in the ass-kicking contest, a SL could take out half a squad in one go and didn't require you to waste a shot of a more powerful weapon.

Now it's kind of...worthless compared to all the other half-ton fillers out there--even a single point of armor on a near-maxed design is worth more than a small laser.

It is weird, though, that S-PPCs haven't appeared as a 'Mech weapon even in a nerfed form, considering they weren't even LosTech during the 3rd SW.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #169 on: 19 December 2018, 18:29:49 »
They even had burst fire back before the TW reset.  In the current rule set, they drop the two-turn recharge time for Support PPCs (the one turn recharge for the Semi-Portable can be accounted for by the 2:1 ratio of AToW to TW turns).  That said, it would actually be a 3/6/9, 2 damage weapon when converting (and 2/4/6, 1 damage for the Semi-Portable).  The rest of the weight would have to be the remote weapon station optics and servos.  My guess would be that TPTB would fluff the (cooling?) systems necessary to get the firing cycle down to 1/TW turn would crank the tonnage up to 1, and the Medium Laser straight wins that competition, even if it is more heat.  That said, I could totally go for a 2/4/6 1 damage energy weapon on a 'mech in 3025.

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #170 on: 19 December 2018, 19:39:22 »
Not to threadjack this into a "what if" weapon thread, but the near-absence of grenade launchers has always bothered me as well. The VGL makes a good smoke dispenser and competitor to A-pods, but where is the equivalent of a Mk 19? Even infantry rarely seem to use them. I can't think off the top of my head of a mention of them being used anywhere in the fiction, despite some of the rather obvious shortcomings of SRMs as an infantry anti-materiel weapon.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #171 on: 19 December 2018, 20:03:06 »
I think the "Grenade Launcher (Heavy)" is the Mark 19 analog, though the Clan "Grenade Launcher (Heavy Auto)" might also qualify.  They both fire 5-round bursts.  The IS version uses class C ordnance, while the Clan uses class D.  I head cannon class C as 40mm grenades, and class D as 60mm.

truetanker

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #172 on: 20 December 2018, 15:59:03 »
There is a Light PPC in the Support rules from the AToWC...

Maybe we should see about those?

TT
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #174 on: 21 December 2018, 06:54:18 »
Hello

Where are the units that use prototype equipment that would have seen use during the Reunification War, Operation Klondike, 4th Succession War, Golden Century and War of 3039?  I would have thought that there'd be a lot of units using prototype equipment, either as new construction or by refit kits, but I've only seen a few and half of those are canon customs.

Also where are the units that use weapons and equipment that have come out recently but have been available for ages in canon, Rocket Launchers, Rifle Cannons, Mortars and such? Not necessarily downgrades, although they'd be nice to have too, but just alternatively armed units.

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #175 on: 21 December 2018, 09:02:57 »
I would have loved to have seen more XTRO 1945 units be counted as legal canon units, it expanded.  Famously, However because it was free product there no sequels.  I would have loved to have seen more, like naval units stuff like with that stuff.  Or even 1960s style stuff with guided missile finally explained.
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #176 on: 21 December 2018, 10:46:37 »
Hello

Where are the units that use prototype equipment that would have seen use during the Reunification War, Operation Klondike, 4th Succession War, Golden Century and War of 3039?  I would have thought that there'd be a lot of units using prototype equipment, either as new construction or by refit kits, but I've only seen a few and half of those are canon customs.

you can assume such things happened and Starterbook: Sword and Dragon gives us a glimpse of what the process might have looked like for deploying prototypes of new weapons. The lack of canon units mounting them is more of an artifact of the real-life development of the game. The Helm Core rollout retcon gives us Star League tech during the 3030s and 3040s, but since few CGL products have outlined that period, we don't have a canon record of variants reflecting those changes - all we have are the original TRO 3050 refits that retain their timestamps in the late 3040s and early 3050s. A series of testbed variants could theoretically exist from the 3030s and early 3040s, but they're currently left to our imaginations.

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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #177 on: 21 December 2018, 11:25:59 »
I think the PPC carriers in the city battle was supposed to carry support PPCs. IIRC they shoot Lori's Locust a couple of times with them? Locusts don't get shot multiple times by full-sized PPCs and keep fighting... ;)

I think so too.

I think the PPC Carrier in HTP: Glengarry is a different beast and what we see in DaTR is more like a jeep with an S-PPC instead of an MG.

I ran the numbers myself and what I came up with had a fixed PPC, 5/8 movement and I think like 2.5t of armour in a 40 tonner; which is just the kind of nonsense I like in BT and the sort of unit I love to throw at players in my kind of games. But Wow! Talk about the tail wagging the dog! As a manufacturer or a commander, geeze; do I want to get in on that? Wow.

I also found the Weapons Carrier-A, which is a Hover 25t ICE vehicle with a large laser, which the MUL says has an LRM variant which we have never seen. Which is perfect for this list.

Looking at the PPC carrier from HTP:G, I am reminded of the numbers which Cray or some other gifted member ran on the old forums which basically established that even with the most optimistic projections for ICE fuel in the BTU, on a pure economics level; Fusion Engines paid for themselves rapidly, even in the darkest days of lostech.

More germane to the topic though; I think we could put up LRM and AC hover weapons carriers and some further light, wheeled weapons carriers would be welcome as well, no?

Not to threadjack this into a "what if" weapon thread, but the near-absence of grenade launchers has always bothered me as well. The VGL makes a good smoke dispenser and competitor to A-pods, but where is the equivalent of a Mk 19? Even infantry rarely seem to use them. I can't think off the top of my head of a mention of them being used anywhere in the fiction, despite some of the rather obvious shortcomings of SRMs as an infantry anti-materiel weapon.

There is a lot of confusion in infantry weapons between art and stats as presented in different versions of different games set in the BTU. One of my back-burner projects is a rationalized infantry weapons list that provides stats for every version of the game, as well as my own rationalized, consistent stats, re-balanced for better play. In addition; I'd add a number of weapons to fill out some notable gaps.

In terms of a Mk-19-style weapon; while there is an automatic grenade launcher in several incarnations, in terms of a weapon with the range, punch and crew requirements of the Mk-19 and similar weapons; no, we never see them. Battletech likes to step-down punch, as it steps up capacity and rate of fire and this was carried over to the infantry weapons.

For my money, all of the BA Mortars are really heavy grenade launchers and the grenade launchers are more like weak, small cannons.
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #178 on: 21 December 2018, 11:43:00 »
I think so too.

I think the PPC Carrier in HTP: Glengarry is a different beast and what we see in DaTR is more like a jeep with an S-PPC instead of an MG.

I ran the numbers myself and what I came up with had a fixed PPC, 5/8 movement and I think like 2.5t of armour in a 40 tonner; which is just the kind of nonsense I like in BT and the sort of unit I love to throw at players in my kind of games. But Wow! Talk about the tail wagging the dog! As a manufacturer or a commander, geeze; do I want to get in on that? Wow.

I also found the Weapons Carrier-A, which is a Hover 25t ICE vehicle with a large laser, which the MUL says has an LRM variant which we have never seen. Which is perfect for this list.

Looking at the PPC carrier from HTP:G, I am reminded of the numbers which Cray or some other gifted member ran on the old forums which basically established that even with the most optimistic projections for ICE fuel in the BTU, on a pure economics level; Fusion Engines paid for themselves rapidly, even in the darkest days of lostech.
I think that thing was the forerunner to the LTV-4 Hover Tank they published in XTRO: Primitives Volume 2 in 2012.

I Believe the same tank was published in earlier ye olde Record Sheets Volume Five: Vehicles.
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Re: The *literally* Never-Seen
« Reply #179 on: 21 December 2018, 12:11:30 »
bigger SRM rack, slower speed. also a cargo bay?



« Last Edit: 21 December 2018, 12:13:10 by Sartris »

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Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

 

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