Author Topic: Damocles . . .  (Read 22499 times)

abou

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #60 on: 27 January 2023, 23:24:08 »
We honestly haven't gotten much information about the Cappies in terms of storylines. They also have been the smallest Great House and therefore easier to directly manage. Their leaders also have a history of being absolutely ruthless or brilliant. It is difficult to manage larger states with direct oversight and not instantaneous communications -- the HPG net being down only makes it worse.

Phoenix

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #61 on: 28 January 2023, 12:38:09 »
Can someone explain the situation with D'Aubray near the end of the book? We learn his wife is MIIO, he attacks Trevor, and then shoots his head of security. Is Trevor MIIO too, or someone that was turned by the Combine? I've re-read that section a few times and can't figure it out.

bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #62 on: 28 January 2023, 15:11:37 »
Can someone explain the situation with D'Aubray near the end of the book? We learn his wife is MIIO, he attacks Trevor, and then shoots his head of security. Is Trevor MIIO too, or someone that was turned by the Combine? I've re-read that section a few times and can't figure it out.

Trevor is Combine sympathizer. The Lord wants to use the sympathizer as a double agent for personal benefit, but the head of security could have ruined that.

Marveryn

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #63 on: 29 January 2023, 09:07:03 »
Trevor is Combine sympathizer. The Lord wants to use the sympathizer as a double agent for personal benefit, but the head of security could have ruined that.
He a believer  that the best way for two people to keep a secret is that one of them is dead

Gracus

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #64 on: 29 January 2023, 15:11:02 »
The sense I got from the Erik Sondoval-Groell character is that he's a genuinely competent leader who has demonstrated his worthiness for command and legitimately believes he would better lead and safeguard the Federated Suns that it current First Prince, and you could make an argument in that direction, given Julian's impromptu execution of a prominent POW, and his chosen priorities.  However, while Julian may not do everything as Erik would, his decisions have ultimately moved the Federated Suns in the right direction.  I think that is where Erik's tragic flaw (ambition) is getting in his way, as the only path he really has to the throne on New Avalon is the civil war he claims (in his head) that he wants to avoid, and I don't see any evidence that Julian's leadership is so abysmal, that replacing it with Erik's would be worth the damage of another civil war at this point.  You might suspect Julian of being a 6-7 out of 10 on the leadership skill, where Erik might be an 8-9, but he hasn't done anything to suggest he's actually incompetent.  Erik was certainly willing to suffer Caleb's leadership, when it benefitted his ambitions, and I think that ambition is the driving force behind his decisions. 

That said, there seems to be a profound tendency in the Federated Suns leadership and public, as described in Shattered Fortress and Divided Dominion, interpret Julian's actions in the worst light possible, and while you're never going to satisfy all the people all of the time, this sort of tendency may be getting some help from a directive source.  Erik would be an obvious choice, but that seems inconsistent with his own internal monologue during Damocles Sanction.  Gavin is introduced as a possible player, though promoting conflict between Erik and Julian would seem to be counter to his apparent desire to preserve the Federated Suns, within the constraints of our current knowledge. 

I do think that the Old and Mercenary Nobility will represent a significant point of fracture in the near future.  I'd really like to get some kind of narrative view into Bernard Marsin's plans and thinking, because right now he seems to be acting the role of the perfectly steady retainer in a time of upheaval.  Dominions Divided seems to suggest Alex Hasek has begun to grow up, which is much at odds with his behavior in his final scene of Damocles Sanction, so I'm curious where that will go as well. 
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bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #65 on: 29 January 2023, 15:15:36 »
The sense I got from the Erik Sondoval-Groell character is that he's a genuinely competent leader who has demonstrated his worthiness for command and legitimately believes he would better lead and safeguard the Federated Suns that it current First Prince, and you could make an argument in that direction, given Julian's impromptu execution of a prominent POW, and his chosen priorities.  However, while Julian may not do everything as Erik would, his decisions have ultimately moved the Federated Suns in the right direction.  I think that is where Erik's tragic flaw (ambition) is getting in his way, as the only path he really has to the throne on New Avalon is the civil war he claims (in his head) that he wants to avoid, and I don't see any evidence that Julian's leadership is so abysmal, that replacing it with Erik's would be worth the damage of another civil war at this point.  You might suspect Julian of being a 6-7 out of 10 on the leadership skill, where Erik might be an 8-9, but he hasn't done anything to suggest he's actually incompetent.  Erik was certainly willing to suffer Caleb's leadership, when it benefitted his ambitions, and I think that ambition is the driving force behind his decisions. 

That said, there seems to be a profound tendency in the Federated Suns leadership and public, as described in Shattered Fortress and Divided Dominion, interpret Julian's actions in the worst light possible, and while you're never going to satisfy all the people all of the time, this sort of tendency may be getting some help from a directive source.  Erik would be an obvious choice, but that seems inconsistent with his own internal monologue during Damocles Sanction.  Gavin is introduced as a possible player, though promoting conflict between Erik and Julian would seem to be counter to his apparent desire to preserve the Federated Suns, within the constraints of our current knowledge. 

I do think that the Old and Mercenary Nobility will represent a significant point of fracture in the near future.  I'd really like to get some kind of narrative view into Bernard Marsin's plans and thinking, because right now he seems to be acting the role of the perfectly steady retainer in a time of upheaval.  Dominions Divided seems to suggest Alex Hasek has begun to grow up, which is much at odds with his behavior in his final scene of Damocles Sanction, so I'm curious where that will go as well.

Julian doesn't seem to want to be first prince....I think he should consider letting the Sandovals be first prince for awhile and keep being prince of the Crucis March.

Gracus

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #66 on: 29 January 2023, 15:25:36 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #67 on: 29 January 2023, 20:11:54 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.

I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.
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bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #68 on: 29 January 2023, 23:46:16 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.

Putting in the better hands of the Sandovals is fulfilling that duty and responsibility.

VensersRevenge

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #69 on: 30 January 2023, 00:26:57 »
The Sandovals are the second worse family to be on the throne, barely above the Haseks. If any March lord should be taking the throne, it would be Marsin. At least he didn't actively collude in the destruction of the realm with a patricidal rapist.
...Is this just fantasy?
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tassa_kay

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #70 on: 30 January 2023, 00:52:12 »
At least he didn't actively collude in the destruction of the realm with a patricidal rapist.

While these things are certainly true of Caleb, this kinda makes it seem like Marsin knew these things and still colluded with him with that knowledge.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #71 on: 30 January 2023, 01:09:30 »
There's no evidence Marsin knew any of that, and potentially he didn't even meet Caleb given how isolated the Marsin's are.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #72 on: 30 January 2023, 01:26:09 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

Yeah, one thing they carried over from MWDA.

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tassa_kay

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #73 on: 30 January 2023, 01:28:28 »
There's no evidence Marsin knew any of that, and potentially he didn't even meet Caleb given how isolated the Marsin's are.

Sorry, I misspoke; I meant to refer to Erik, because I don't think Erik knew about either of those things when colluding with Caleb.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #74 on: 30 January 2023, 01:40:06 »
The fact Julian hasn't revealed how Harrison died is bizarre. Whether some people like it or not, Harrison is canonically very popular, and it would be a good way to fully swing support to him.
...Is this just fantasy?
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #75 on: 30 January 2023, 01:52:46 »
Maybe, and I swear I'm not being sarcastic here, because he doesn't have proof (does he?) and doesn't want to risk destabilizing his already-turbulent realm with what would surely be a divisive and incendiary accusation.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #76 on: 30 January 2023, 02:03:09 »
It is also . . . 15 game years ago . . . so many other bad things have happened since then- besides, that information has power IF he decided to go after Caleb.  Caleb is dead . . . and it just opens up questions to Julian of, if you knew that and WHY Caleb was not supposed to assume the throne, why did you wait?

Nothing good could come from revealing his old knowledge.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #77 on: 30 January 2023, 02:03:37 »
Gavin Marik-Davion gave Julian the information in "data crystals" which I assume is verifiable.
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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #78 on: 30 January 2023, 02:45:55 »
Gavin Marik-Davion gave Julian the information in "data crystals" which I assume is verifiable.


I'd have to reread Fortress Republic, but I don't think that was proof of Caleb murdering Harrison, just of his psychological issues.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #79 on: 30 January 2023, 02:46:24 »
There's really nothing to be gained from him revealing that information now, but why he didn't before if it was verifiable is beyond me. Julian bears a measure of responsibility for the disaster that was Caleb's reign because he didn't speak up when he should have and let a truly unfit man sit on the throne.

I'd have to reread Fortress Republic, but I don't think that was proof of Caleb murdering Harrison, just of his psychological issues.

I think you're right, actually.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #80 on: 30 January 2023, 07:21:02 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

agreed. least we know THIS first prince won't run off to comstar :)
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #81 on: 30 January 2023, 11:42:05 »
There's really nothing to be gained from him revealing that information now, but why he didn't before if it was verifiable is beyond me. Julian bears a measure of responsibility for the disaster that was Caleb's reign because he didn't speak up when he should have and let a truly unfit man sit on the throne.

I'm pretty sure it's also the source of Gavin's antipathy towards Julian, as well. He gave Julian the tools to remove Caleb and Julian failed to use them - that's a massive dereliction of duty, from Gavin's point of view, at least.

Still not sure how we get to present day with Gavin seemingly under custody, though. My assumption is that Gavin arrived on New Avalon with Julian and wasn't simply hanging out in a cell throughout the entire Kuritan occupation.


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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #82 on: 30 January 2023, 12:22:37 »
I'm pretty sure it's also the source of Gavin's antipathy towards Julian, as well. He gave Julian the tools to remove Caleb and Julian failed to use them - that's a massive dereliction of duty, from Gavin's point of view, at least.


That may be his view, and it certainly seems like it, but I would argue that it's the fault of a lot of other people more than Julian. Ultimately, by the time Gavin gives him that information, the only thing Julian could do with it is start a civil war - or, more likely, get himself and the First Guards killed in a brief insurrection - or sit on it; and a civil war is something the Federated Suns couldn't survive, even assuming Julian won.


Tbh, a lot of this just ends up coming back to that, for all his (unearned) good PR, Harrison was just plain a bad ruler, because he really doesn't seem to've done any of the actual work in setting things up so that Julian could be put in place as his heir even if something happened to him.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #83 on: 30 January 2023, 12:38:42 »
Harrison was just plain a bad ruler, because he really doesn't seem to've done any of the actual work in setting things up so that Julian could be put in place as his heir even if something happened to him.

Harrison hadn't even decided on Julian replacing Caleb as his successor until the trip to Terra for Victor's funeral, and Caleb murdered him before he had a chance to make that decision public. Blaming Harrison for that seems a little silly to me.
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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #84 on: 30 January 2023, 13:30:33 »
Harrison hadn't even decided on Julian replacing Caleb as his successor until the trip to Terra for Victor's funeral, and Caleb murdered him before he had a chance to make that decision public. Blaming Harrison for that seems a little silly to me.


Yet, he'd known about Caleb's mental instability for sixteen years at this point (Caleb was diagnosed c. 3118, when he went into AFFS training - Julian remembers meeting Caleb for the first time when he was eleven, so c. 3118, and "shortly before" Caleb went for training, in Sword of Sedition), and that it's not a condition that's going to get better. Harrison needs to have been working to find and prepare an alternate heir from that point, and if he truly did decide on Julian solely at the last minute, effectively - while I admit it's plausible, considering that if we try and synthesize every source together, Harrison seems to've tried quite hard to bury something that would be quite creditable for Julian as an heir to the Lion Throne* - then that is fundamentally irresponsible of him as First Prince.




* of course, the actual reason would be that TRO Dark Age was written twenty years post-Fortress Republic, and thus the action on Taygeta didn't exist when FR was written
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #85 on: 30 January 2023, 21:03:16 »
Yeah, the reason Harrison took Julian in was as a possible heir to replace Caleb.
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Gracus

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #86 on: 31 January 2023, 15:23:14 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

Admittedly, I may have been understating the matter.  On the other hand, Toranaga's death might argue against that, given its consequences.  It will require more evidence to decide, I think. 


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trboturtle

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #87 on: 31 January 2023, 17:18:41 »
Harrison knew for years Caleb was not the heir the FedSuns needed. He had plenty of time to shift Caleb into therapy and isolate him in a palace somewhere, while bringing Julian in to learn the ropes, so to speak. Because Harrison didn't do that, Julian started at a disadvantage and he's been playing catch-up since then.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #88 on: 31 January 2023, 17:34:10 »
Problem with that is Amanda Hasek might have taken exception- he was a Hasek as well, and she was invested in him sitting the throne.  Amanda had already gone off on her own for military adventurism . . . the question is simply, does leaving him in place with the misconception- and toadies/watchers with the misconception- do more harm than good?  Harrison's answer was obviously no . . .
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #89 on: 01 February 2023, 01:53:04 »
Problem with that is Amanda Hasek might have taken exception- he was a Hasek as well, and she was invested in him sitting the throne.  Amanda had already gone off on her own for military adventurism . . . the question is simply, does leaving him in place with the misconception- and toadies/watchers with the misconception- do more harm than good?  Harrison's answer was obviously no . . .

On the other hand Amanda had practially raised Julian so her complaints would likely have been minimal
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