Author Topic: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?  (Read 18013 times)

Domi1981

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #60 on: 13 March 2018, 12:56:55 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.

Agreed. A new Battletech app can demand money but it has to offer a basis for more. Not only to print sheets but it has to work as a properly programmed management app for everything that involves paperwork. That would be of course tracking damage, heat etc. plus all the repair and maintenance operations, keeping and managing stats for my mechwarriors, infantry squads. I know that´s a lot of work, such an app would not only be an app it could be a game changer for Battletech. Lets be honest about it. More and more people stop playing Battletech because its compeletely overblown. The biggest mistake was focusing too much on Mecharmy battles (fluffwise) while the gamesystem doesn´t support this. Yet an app could help handling larger fights. Sure, there is AS, but when I leaf through the forums I get the feeling that people actually like CB more and love to dismember their mechs instead of the more "detached" experience in AS.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #61 on: 13 March 2018, 13:12:54 »
The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)

Yes, they had to do other stuff to float the company (and, by extension, franchise) because the stuff they had wasn't profitable enough. I don't fault them for that as I would have done the same.

I'm all for a sustainable model but the pivot wouldn't be occuring in the first place if the line wasn't in trouble.


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Dakkon

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #62 on: 13 March 2018, 14:45:06 »
I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.


Bosefius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #63 on: 15 March 2018, 07:31:49 »
I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.

Except they're looking for another product and have been for several years. Other than that...
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Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #64 on: 16 March 2018, 19:28:06 »
Except they're looking for another product and have been for several years. Other than that...

Really? I'm sorry, but that is utter bull.

Looking for a new product? Who have they engaged? Because last time I checked, it's pretty damned easy to request quotes, get prices and make it happen. The Dev's aren't looking for a new product, they want a fan developed on over which they bear no liability. I'm sorry, but this claim fails both a common sense test and the business intelligence test. If the Devs thought the tool would be cost effective and profit generating, they wouldn't be looking, they would be buying.

nckestrel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #65 on: 16 March 2018, 19:52:20 »
If the Devs thought the tool would be cost effective and profit generating, they wouldn't be looking, they would be buying.

That is an enormous assumption. And not one I think any BattleTech Line Dev has thought.
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Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #66 on: 16 March 2018, 20:48:05 »
There's a difference between looking for a licensing agreement and looking to make a product from scratch. One is much cheaper than the other, but it requires the other party to be actively interested instead of just passively replying to RFPs.

monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #67 on: 16 March 2018, 22:07:03 »
Which I think does raise a fair question.  Has Catalyst even put out a professional quality RFP?

A quick google search doesn't yield one but that doesn't mean they haven't.

What I know for sure is they haven't put forth any actual official requirements beyond "mostly finished" in the thread here and that isn't going to get a lot of response, especially when MegaMekLab already exists.

Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #68 on: 16 March 2018, 22:17:45 »
That is an enormous assumption. And not one I think any BattleTech Line Dev has thought.


Its a conclusion drawn from facts and assumptions.

I've laid out my reasoning up thread, including the facts I've observed, the assumptions I've made, and the conclusions I've drawn.


nckestrel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #69 on: 16 March 2018, 22:21:35 »
Its a conclusion drawn from facts and assumptions.

I've laid out my reasoning up thread, including the facts I've observed, the assumptions I've made, and the conclusions I've drawn.

I think you misunderstood me. I was commenting on. Your assumptions of what the debs believe. That they believe it would make money. I don’t think the believe that at all, this aren’t willing to invest money in t.
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monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #70 on: 16 March 2018, 22:29:19 »
If they can't pay anything for it, or not enough to be a fair offer for that case, then perhaps it would be best that they rescind the request until they can.

Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #71 on: 16 March 2018, 22:44:02 »
I think you misunderstood me. I was commenting on. Your assumptions of what the debs believe. That they believe it would make money. I don’t think the believe that at all, this aren’t willing to invest money in t.

Lol, then it seems to be misunderstandings all round! My entire assumption was that the Devs believed that it wouldn't make money, hence why we don't have it.

We appear to be in complete agreement! :-)

nckestrel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #72 on: 16 March 2018, 22:47:01 »
If they can't pay anything for it, or not enough to be a fair offer for that case, then perhaps it would be best that they rescind the request until they can.

What percentage of the people working on BattleTech do you think are volunteers and not paid?
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #73 on: 16 March 2018, 22:49:10 »
Lol, then it seems to be misunderstandings all round! My entire assumption was that the Devs believed that it wouldn't make money, hence why we don't have it.

We appear to be in complete agreement! :-)

Agreed. :)
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monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #74 on: 16 March 2018, 23:12:35 »
What percentage of the people working on BattleTech do you think are volunteers and not paid?

Too many obviously.

To expect that to extend to yet another developer team is frankly a bit insane when there are already so many free fan made editors out there.

grimlock1

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #75 on: 16 March 2018, 23:17:26 »
What would be a fair retainer for keeping something like SSW up to date? 

Just asking so when I hit the Powerball, I can get the check out the door quick.
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monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #76 on: 17 March 2018, 00:02:58 »
Now that is a good question.

Depends on how many Java developers you hire for the project.  Going rate for an entry level JAVA programmer in my area is about $30k USD.

Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #77 on: 17 March 2018, 01:21:02 »
Now that is a good question.

Depends on how many Java developers you hire for the project.  Going rate for an entry level JAVA programmer in my area is about $30k USD.

That's not the only way to get it though. To be honest I'd contract a development and support, rather than trying to develop it in-house. That way you leverage against an established development team and they are liable for fixing anything that's wrong with the app, rather than being the developer and being personally liable.

I'd also want a determination as to whether MicroSoft holds complete rights to all digital media for Battletech, or whether they are limited to digital entertainment. There is a decent argument to be made that this media is a game aid and thus not covered under the sale of that IP. That would likely cost even more than development of the app, however.

grimlock1

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #78 on: 17 March 2018, 02:02:43 »
That's not the only way to get it though. To be honest I'd contract a development and support, rather than trying to develop it in-house. That way you leverage against an established development team and they are liable for fixing anything that's wrong with the app, rather than being the developer and being personally liable.

I'd also want a determination as to whether MicroSoft holds complete rights to all digital media for Battletech, or whether they are limited to digital entertainment. There is a decent argument to be made that this media is a game aid and thus not covered under the sale of that IP. That would likely cost even more than development of the app, however.
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monbvol

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #79 on: 17 March 2018, 02:19:27 »
As far as who to hire/how many to hire it also depends on the end goal.  Considering how far a handful of people got SSW and SAW in their spare time, just hiring a few people to finish SSW and SAW with the latest gear may not be a terrible option.

It would be nice to have an official clarification on the matter but the upside to TPTB making the call for new software does at least infer a couple things.

1: With how lawyer shy CGL is, for good reason, I don't imagine them making such a call if they were not 100% confident Microsoft does decide electronic game aids part of their license.

2: Microsoft doesn't want to do it themselves.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #80 on: 17 March 2018, 03:05:28 »
The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)
In addition to Dragonfire, there was also the constipation of IO finally coming out, I figure that getting that out took up a lot of resources.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #81 on: 14 May 2019, 11:45:50 »
Came across this thread looking for something else and noticed a couple people specifically interested in a tablet/digital record sheet.

Just in case it didn't appear appear on their radar, I thought I'd cross-link to this:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64175.msg1476101#msg1476101

Cheers!

Berzerker

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #82 on: 08 August 2019, 19:11:55 »
SSW moved to bit bucket, not sure yet if it is the same group or some one took it over.
https://github.com/Solaris-Skunk-Werks
https://github.com/Solaris-Skunk-Werks/solarisskunkwerks/releases
Last update was early August.

Flechs sheets listed above is pretty sweet too if everyone has a tablet/laptop.
« Last Edit: 08 August 2019, 19:21:35 by Berzerker »
Someone has to play Jade Falcon or it is just a bunch of wolf on wolf action.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #83 on: 08 August 2019, 19:22:22 »
Pretty sure someone took it over. Lostinspace moved on and skyhigh manages the MUL nos

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #84 on: 09 August 2019, 05:15:47 »
There is a bunch of people I ran into on discord who are making a fork of it and restarting work on it. Not sure if any of them are around here.

They're behind that github.