Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation  (Read 160353 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #510 on: 18 March 2019, 14:43:02 »
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.

The -35 is not near peer, b/c of the loiter, b/c of the limited load, b/c of its breaking point, and b/c of its flight profile.

I am all for the USAF getting a modern relative to the twin prop CAS from Vietnam, but the Fighter Mafia will try some sexy bleeding edge tech design rather than a cruciform bomb truck from a proven design.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #511 on: 18 March 2019, 15:41:53 »
I read a Quoro post that made me reconsider some of these CAS arguments.


The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.


Is the F-35 perfect - far from it. Is the A-10 golden - not really.
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #512 on: 18 March 2019, 15:49:02 »
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #513 on: 18 March 2019, 15:49:57 »
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.


whereas I am totally ignorant
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #514 on: 18 March 2019, 15:57:19 »
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #515 on: 18 March 2019, 16:43:28 »
The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.

Fun stat we used in Advanced Individual Training was to tell the 13C, forward observers, was that they had a combat lifespan of 14 seconds on the battlefield.  How that number is arrived at, I do not know but I went through in the post-Cold War era where we were still training to fight that conventional war (never co-locate with your transmitters- here is where you hook in that cable to go to your radio antennae that should be X away from your BOC).

Smart munitions are all well can good . . . but they get expensive, which is part of why the big gun is on the A-10.  But that is not its only- or even primary weapon- for CAS roles . . . dumb bombs, cluster bombs and napalm can all be carried in greater quantities than the F-35 for the reasons cited above on the -22's AA capabilities.  It can also drop the Maverick and the other expensive (and thus limited in the inventories) guided/smart munitions.  Fire Support, and CAS qualifies for this, determines the abilities of a enemy asset as neutralized/something- impaired?/degraded/harassed which determines if it gets follow up attention- so for sortie purposes, mo' bombs = mo' betta'.

The higher cost of using the F-35 for the role was cited in a 2011 Congressional report about the A-10 replacement options.  Now this is not to say that it might not be a good cost cutting measure to go with a new CAS bird- something without the big tank killing gun maybe.  But its going to look a lot like the A-10 in its airframe b/c of its function rather than a high altitude & high performance jet- it may have more stealth features like a V-form tail or bury the engines between the wing and fuselage to defeat some IR but its going to do that to prevent look down targeting IMO since fighters are their threat.  CAS is not going to have to penetrate a high AA environment without Wild Weasel support and their defense systems are pretty robust as I understand it- btw, the bird can apparently be rigged for Wild Weasel work though is probably hampered by being a single seater for the most part.

But the design is 40+ years old . . . which also means the airframes are getting older despite the longevity treatments.  I am not sure they are the pinnacle of the design tree that the B-52 has reached despite its ongoing evolution.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #516 on: 18 March 2019, 18:36:51 »
While the Tucano might be cheaper (a LOT cheaper) than an A-10, I don't think many pilots would want to face the lucky RPG or AK-47 with anything less than a titanium bathtub...

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #517 on: 18 March 2019, 22:23:36 »
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?

Look really freakin' cool in a hangar while waiting for parts?

Mind you, it has that in common with the A-5 Vigilante, another North American product that looked like it was breaking Mach while parked.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #518 on: 18 March 2019, 22:52:39 »
I read a Quoro post that made me reconsider some of these CAS arguments.


The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.


Is the F-35 perfect - far from it. Is the A-10 golden - not really.

Is the F-35 viable for close air support? not really.  when it's there, sure, (anything that can drop a bomb is-once.) but it won't be there very often, nor for very long.  having CAS available for 2 minutes out of every hour (flight time from refuel to front and back) you need a lot more of them to maintain coverage on ground units, then we get to payload.   The 35 has less payload than an F-5E.  (not that it matters when you can't stick around.)

the '35 is a first-strike fighter, it's an air superiority fighter, and that's where you hit the wall.  USAF doesn't like doing air-to-mud in a combat situation and spending the price of an abrams-each time-to blow up one or two insurgents is pretty damn wasteful in munitions-and that's what you end up spending, because the F-35 can't survive air support as a mission-it can only do the stand-off mission the F-15E already does for less, in an environment where enemy ADA has already been suppressed into nonexistence.  (See, you LOSE all that nifty stealth advantage if you give it enough warload to actually carry more than a very small number of bombs.)

and it lacks fuel range, which in turn means linger time, meaning it's unavailable more often than even the supersonic jets we already have in service, and available LESS OFTEN for calls from troops that 'found' that concentration of enemy.

It's more susceptible to random damage as well as aimed damage-heck, it's more suscepible to damage PERIOD. (and again, damage eliminates that stealth option, but in this case it's harder to keep in the air!)

"in it's own way" means they'll assign it the mission-and it won't execute that mission except on paper.

Smart munitions are insanely, absurdly expensive items.  you CAN buy a main battle tank for the price of some of the ones we have in inventory-difference being, an MBT will be usefl for several conflicts, and a smart bomb is useful in only one engagement in one conflict (per unit).  The whole reason the Navy's looking at gun-based systems and the army's repeatedly putting new howitzer designs up, is that the per-shot cost is so MUCH less than buying guided missiles or smart bombs.

really, really so much less, you wouldn't believe the price difference unless you've seen the numbers congress sees.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2019, 23:01:01 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #519 on: 19 March 2019, 00:55:59 »
This is why they need to let the Army have it's own aircraft to provide CAS. Unfortunately, policy is not in favor that logical idea. Bring back OV-10D and let the Army handle it's own CAS/COIN missions. And no, helos can't do the job by them selves due to the limitations on how much and what type of weaponry they can carry.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #520 on: 19 March 2019, 03:02:45 »
This is why they need to let the Army have it's own aircraft to provide CAS. Unfortunately, policy is not in favor that logical idea. Bring back OV-10D and let the Army handle it's own CAS/COIN missions. And no, helos can't do the job by them selves due to the limitations on how much and what type of weaponry they can carry.


I do rather think that a lot of this discussion is bounded by US doctrine - I would look perhaps at the USMC or other NATO ways of working


In the "post A-10 world" I would expect the close support to be performed by (Army) attack helicopters, non-stealthy fighters like EuroFighter Typhoon, F-15E, F-18E/F, F-16, Rafele etc with somewhat stand off weapons, and with Wild Weasel, drones and F-35s taking on AAA and trickier targets


Oh and the life expectancy of the forward controllers of a few seconds after designating sadly does not surprise me but similar stats were quoted for MANPADs operators, just think of them as a one shot weapon like an AT-4  :-\


(I am taking something of a Devil's Advocate position here)
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #521 on: 19 March 2019, 03:16:10 »
And now for something from the other side...

What is it about that camo that gets me going?


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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #522 on: 19 March 2019, 03:30:31 »
Could it be the lovely shades of blue that were used?
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #523 on: 19 March 2019, 05:16:45 »
It is a very attractive shade
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #524 on: 19 March 2019, 05:22:04 »
RAF Museum Hendon blog post on the glorious "wooden wonder" the Mosquito


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hoosierhick

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #525 on: 19 March 2019, 07:15:42 »
Because you can never have too many pictures of the Moquito...


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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #526 on: 19 March 2019, 07:26:05 »
Or the German's abortive attempt to copy it, the Focke-Wulf Ta 154 Moskito.


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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #527 on: 19 March 2019, 08:05:25 »
And now for something from the other side...

What is it about that camo that gets me going?



It's a lovely shade on an absolutely beautiful airframe?
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #528 on: 19 March 2019, 08:27:16 »

whereas I am totally ignorant
Hell to the no, man.
I respectfully disagree with both you.  I've read posts from both you, and while we may have differing viewpoints, based on our own knowledge, experience, and research, you have devoted time to study the topic. That alone puts you a step above 90% of the population.  Maybe you can't launch into the a pro/con between tailerons and flaperons. On the other hand, you don't act like an expert. You ask intelligent questions. You listen to responses, which are at a higher level than most of the population can follow.

I submit that you are closer to the middle of the Kruger-Dunning curve than the left side.



Wow, this is weird.  Don't most arguments on the internet boil down to "I'm not stupid.  You're stupid"?  And we are bickering over "I'm not smart.  Yes, you are."  Weird.

Or the German's abortive attempt to copy it, the Focke-Wulf Ta 154 Moskito.

Were they trying to turn it into a radar bird? 

It's a lovely shade on an absolutely beautiful airframe?
Maybe its because I didn't grow up seeing them on aircraft in American popular media but canards always look cool and exotic to me.   The way the nose, fuselage and wing all blend together on the Su-27 and its descendants is sleek and sexy.  The MIG-29 has nice lines, although the wing to LERX blend is a bit blocky.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2019, 08:39:18 by grimlock1 »
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #529 on: 19 March 2019, 13:55:04 »
Hey buddy Who you calling smart?!

My derriere said it, not me! Honest...

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #530 on: 19 March 2019, 20:20:32 »
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
it can break mach 1 and flies like a fighter. which is all the USAF really wants.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #531 on: 20 March 2019, 04:51:46 »
Because you can never have too many pictures of the Moquito...



As of January 2019 there are now four airworthy Mosquitos

The latest is PZ474, which to me is the best looking of the lot

https://aerodynamicmedia.com/pz474-report/

Never thought I'd see that after the loss of RR299 back in 2006...





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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #532 on: 20 March 2019, 10:58:43 »
Guys, I toasted some material that's under moderator review. We frequently pull related content so that the conversation doesn't get broken up. Later we'll inform users that their posts got pulled in the interests of disclosure. Continue the discussion from here please. Kindly reload the thread so I don't have to keep pulling out fraying threads.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #533 on: 20 March 2019, 11:33:00 »
I was very happy to see the Mosquito when I could of, such a sleek plane. Also a A-26 Invader was there that day. Two very neat planes to me.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #534 on: 20 March 2019, 11:47:44 »
I like the Gripen NG, I think it could really be something. Unfortunately it remains overshadowed by the F-16V


Colt Ward

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #535 on: 20 March 2019, 12:49:04 »
Was that plane in the old Jane's ATF?  I had a blast flying the F-22, learned to hate the -35 (I think it was in there), found the F-117 was limited, loved the B-2, and played with some of the other experimentals.  I also seem to recall it had this . . .



Then you have this for forward swept . . .

Didn't this plane crash at a European show?

I think the Su-47 was where Hasbro got . . .

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #536 on: 20 March 2019, 13:56:15 »
Was that plane in the old Jane's ATF?  I had a blast flying the F-22, learned to hate the -35 (I think it was in there), found the F-117 was limited, loved the B-2, and played with some of the other experimentals.  I also seem to recall it had this . . .



Then you have this for forward swept . . .

Didn't this plane crash at a European show?

I think the Su-47 was where Hasbro got . . .


Hasbro got there back in 86-87.
I just noticed that both the X-29 and the Su-47 have a very pronounced leading edge root extension.  It makes both of them more a W-wing than a true forward swept wing. I wonder if is there more for aerodynamic or structural reasons....
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #537 on: 20 March 2019, 14:39:37 »
My understanding is structural shading to aerodynamics . . . it was possible to flex the wings 'down' going into a high-G turn and IIRC there was something about the vortexes off the wings causing some problems.  I know the X-29 was more a proof of concept but I would swear there was a fighter with forward swept wings that was rejected b/c it was a cooperative job with West Germany.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #538 on: 20 March 2019, 14:42:33 »
It's amazing what you can do with an F-5.  (Okay, F-20, but still)

Purely at a guess, I'd say both for the LERX on the -47 and -29.  They aid in stall recovery, which is a potential Thing for FSWs with wingtip stalls being both generally unpredictable and asynchronous.  Apparently the desired effect is to have the wingtip flex (yay aeroelastics!) reducing angle of attack at the tip and departing the stall condition, shifting it to the wing root.

That said, there's also that very flexing as well - all the stress of an FSW is out at the tips, which means it needs some solid construction.  Fatigue stresses love corners to bits, so having a partially built-up structure at the wing root gives more strength to the wing.  Add in the stall characteristics and it's a double bonus.

Looking at the Ju-287 testbed on the wiki, it mentions wing warping as excessive flexing of the wings - and looking close at the design, it clearly doesn't have the LERX options put in.  (Not invented until the 50s with the F-5, alas)
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #539 on: 20 March 2019, 22:23:08 »
My understanding is structural shading to aerodynamics . . . it was possible to flex the wings 'down' going into a high-G turn and IIRC there was something about the vortexes off the wings causing some problems.  I know the X-29 was more a proof of concept but I would swear there was a fighter with forward swept wings that was rejected b/c it was a cooperative job with West Germany.

X-29 was a NASA project, the joint project with West Germany was a vectored-thrust job using paddles instead of a moving nozzle from the same period, but followed a more conventional wing layout.  (both were profiled by Smithsonian Air&Space magazine in the late eighties).  the west german coop never got to a full airframe, they stopped at scale models.

The X-29 was built off an F-5, btw, and featured an all-composite wing structure and required active computer assistance to fly, being around 35% unstable vs. the F-16's 15% or so.

not sure what happened with the Berkut, but the Soviets/Russians got the closest to building a production fighter using forward swept wing layout.
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