Definition of LosTech in Mercenary's Star

[catsandwich]

Hello there,

So I'm getting into the BT universe. I've read Decision and Thunder rift and had a good time. Now I'm reading Mercenary's Star, and so far so good.

At one point very early in the book "lostech" is mentioned:

"Lostech was the word that had been coined for such a place, a world that had begun the long fall from civilization to savagery during centuries of unremitting warfare. The word now applied only to those worlds that had lost the most"

(emphasis mine)

I found this a little bit weird, since I encountered the term in other places and assumed that they meant "StarLeague tech that was lost". However here it seems to refer to backwater worlds, technologically speaking.

Is this an early kink of the universe that was retconned later? Are there two definitions? Am I missing something?

And hey, this is my first post here :)

[Sartris]

Welcome!
Could you provide a page number?

[Elmoth]

Basically the Star League period is regarded as the epithome of technology and techie development of humanking. Since then technological standards fell unitil the mid 3030's, when the diverse factions got hold and started using the Helm Memory Core, that allowed them to get back on track and start building from what had come before. Lostech is basically a lower tech standard over tha tof the star league period. The gap is the "lost" part. it can be small (or nonexistent for some worlds) or massive 8for world s that needed special satellites to be unhinabitable and now are basically desert wastelands with just pockets of mankind.

[Matti]

Lostech can also refer to technology that can't be made anymore at given time, because knowledge for that technology has been lost. In 3025 and around it (when Mercenary's Star takes a place) double heat sinks and ER/pulse lasers aren't made anymore, so those are lostech at that time. I recall novel also calls DropShip a lostech, but author may written that with an assumption that new DropShips aren't made anymore. When that novel was written, details of BattleTech universe wasn't set in stone yet, and books of the time had conflicting information. Even in the same book (original Technical Readout 3025)

[massey]

Yeah, but that's not what the book appears to be saying.  The novel appears to be using an entirely different definition for Lostech, which is what the OP is asking about.  The novel appears to be defining Lostech as worlds which have slid into heavy technological decline.  So some Mad Max planet where they can only produce WWII stuff would be a "Lostech planet", because they've lost all their tech.

And in answer to the OP, I don't know.  This is the first time I've seen that definition.

[Sabelkatten]

I don't remember that line, but "lostech" can mean many things... So a "lostech world" meaning a world that has lost pretty much all advanced tech sound all right to me.

[glitterboy2098]

a reminder that said novel was written during the 2nd edition days, when many things about the setting was still in flux. for example, at the time whether their were even factories able to produce new mechs was in question, as the 2nd edition rulebook had a setting where there was no ability to produce vehicles more complex than tanks, and things like battlemechs, spacecraft, and most fusion powered vehicles survived entirely off salvage and dwindling stockpiles of old parts. the book however includes mechs from TRO3025, which retconned factories back into existence, but the details were vague and it was heavily implied the output was so low as to functionally be the same as no factories.

later Grey Death novels, once the setting had stabilized into what we recognize, took the tack of having Greyson be a reactionary that feared for the total loss of technology due to war far more than normal, even in timeperiods when technology and production were recovering and improving post-clan invasion. which presumably was done to justify statements such as the OP's quote as being from Greyson's own personal viewpoint.

[catsandwich]

Great answers all around, appreciate it.

Welcome!
Could you provide a page number?

I'm reading the Kindle edition which doesn't have page numbers (or proof-reading for that matter...), but it's in chapter 2.

I don't remember that line, but "lostech" can mean many things... So a "lostech world" meaning a world that has lost pretty much all advanced tech sound all right to me.

I tend to agree, though if I were to nit-pick I'd say that "lostech world" could mean the other thing - pockets of human settlement which did retain some "lostech".

Anyway, this is a minor nit, and I get the feeling that I just came across some weird and kind of minor inconsistency. I was mostly surprised to see that there was no mention of it online, which was even weirder.

[guardiandashi]

my understanding was that 1st edition (battle droids) had the no capability to build new battlemechs.

that changed by the time 2nd edition came out, which changed it to a lot of factories were marginally to fully functional but even if the factory was functional the factory itself was lostech also.

basically lostech fundamentally comes down to technology that is not understood anymore. so while they can use it, and diagnose what is broken they had trouble making the parts and repairing other than replacing whole assemblies.

To be honest we have aspects of lostech today according to things I have read.

you could make an argument that some portions of the wwII battleships are lostech, because while we can make steel, some of the alloys are lost especially the foundries and hardening techniques that were used.

another example is from the space program, an example is the Saturn heavy lift rockets, while we can recreate the rockets by following the final specs, fuel etc. but the research that determined WHY the design was designed the way it is has been lost.

[Hellraiser]

There was a lot of tech that got "lost" when the SL fell & SW broke out & it wasn't all weapons tech.

I seem to recall them mentioning stuff like water purifiers or something w/ farming in one of the GDL books.

TRO3026 mentioned Myomer replacement parts for medical use for damaged limbs as being mostly lost IIRC or clones parts, something like that.

Wolves on the Border mentioned the Dragoons being able to repair Jamie's XO in Alpha getting medical treatment that Minobu had no access to.

There was a boatload of data on the Helm core that we didn't see in TRO2750 that had to do with basic functions of life on a hostile planet that the NAIS worked to unlock.

Even the Valkyrie factory on New Avalon was noted as being Automated & the techs could no longer understand how it worked & had trouble keeping it operational.

So I'd say Losttech is anything where the tech level has slid backwards.

Some planets are more Lost-Tech than others however.  New Avalon might be far better off than some nuked to oblivion TH world that had to be abandoned like New Dallas.... but neither of them operates at the level of Terra or Strana Mechty

[Brakiel]

my understanding was that 1st edition (battle droids) had the no capability to build new battlemechs.

that changed by the time 2nd edition came out, which changed it to a lot of factories were marginally to fully functional but even if the factory was functional the factory itself was lostech also.

basically lostech fundamentally comes down to technology that is not understood anymore. so while they can use it, and diagnose what is broken they had trouble making the parts and repairing other than replacing whole assemblies.

To be honest we have aspects of lostech today according to things I have read.

you could make an argument that some portions of the wwII battleships are lostech, because while we can make steel, some of the alloys are lost especially the foundries and hardening techniques that were used.

another example is from the space program, an example is the Saturn heavy lift rockets, while we can recreate the rockets by following the final specs, fuel etc. but the research that determined WHY the design was designed the way it is has been lost.

I'd also throw in FOGBANK, an important material used in certain nuclear weapons developed in the 70s by the US. The process was marginally documented due to how classified the stuff was; and coupled with scientists retiring, meant as an institution the military simply could not make new nukes or refurbish old ones. IIRC, it took an all out scramble of 2-ish decades to re-engineer the stuff.

[ANS Kamas P81]

You know, with all the primitive rules we have now, it almost makes sense to put those in the post-2900 era as factories fade, and the means to produce battlemechs fades...like, most of what's out there is primitive machines, while there's still very carefully maintained real 'Mechs from the SL era (including the high end royals) that are kept alive with parts supplies.  Gives you a real decision to make as just how much you risk your real 'mechs versus the prims, and of the real machines how fast you pull back the ancient models.

[Sabelkatten]

my understanding was that 1st edition (battle droids) had the no capability to build new battlemechs.

that changed by the time 2nd edition came out, which changed it to a lot of factories were marginally to fully functional but even if the factory was functional the factory itself was lostech also.

Unless I misremember completely 2ndEd rulebook said "no new mechs" while TRO3025 added the Corean plant on New Avalon as "the last fully functioning" mech factory (with the factory itself being lostech - nobody knew how to rebuild it). It was the only place new Neurohelmets were made.

[Frabby]

We're talking the same novel here that describes Trellwan as a periphery world.

You could simply call it "early installment weirdness" and interpret it in the context of the more evolved BattleTech universe and setting.

Or you could, I guess, even take it literally and assume that the lostech-ravaged "periphery" began roughly in the middle of the Successor States already, with only the inner worlds in a ~250 ligthyear bubble centered on Terra being not-periphery. The dystopian lostech setting as described would thus apply to all worlds except those core worlds.

[Kentares]

I always assumed that "lostech" was a catch all word to both define the decline in technology on planetary/system/district/whatever scale and as the fall of the society into chaos depending on context (more the first than the later but...).

[AdmiralObvious]

I always assumed that "lostech" was a catch all word to both define the decline in technology on planetary/system/district/whatever scale and as the fall of the society into chaos depending on context (more the first than the later but...).

That's basically it, yes. How far it slipped depends on who and where in the galaxy they were.

I can agrue the pererphiery didn't slip very far as a result of the Succession Wars. The Inner Sphere took the brunt of it, I think. ComStar didn't help, at all. I'm still not entirely sure why it was decided that ComStar would be the one targeting scientists recovering Lostec either. Seems kind of like the Brotherhood Of Steel in Fallout. "None of you can have Plasma Rifles, but me."

[haesslich]

I can agrue the pererphiery didn't slip very far as a result of the Succession Wars. The Inner Sphere took the brunt of it, I think. ComStar didn't help, at all. I'm still not entirely sure why it was decided that ComStar would be the one targeting scientists recovering Lostec either. Seems kind of like the Brotherhood Of Steel in Fallout. "None of you can have Plasma Rifles, but me."

Because they were religious types worshipping the past and technology like a certain far future franchise, and were the logical ones to use for a conspiracy to explain why things fell so fast and so far without recovering in 50-100 years.

It's hard to see how the Succession Wars would have gone on so long with no clear winner and no tech progression otherwise, short of having nuked everyone to the literal stone age whee there'd be no mechs and no space travel.

[Matti]

It's hard to see how the Succession Wars would have gone on so long with no clear winner and no tech progression otherwise, short of having nuked everyone to the literal stone age whee there'd be no mechs and no space travel.

Isn't that one reason why universe got retconned and made away with it? FedSuns found library of DTF books, Gray Death found computer equivalent, as those rediscovered knowledge spread around, Draconis Combine starts producing Atlas again, and Lyran Commonwealth manages to build factories and ramp up fusion engine production (enough for new vehicle designs!) without either library. Then 4th Succession War happens and FedSuns crub-stomps Capellan Confederation. Yeah, we knew this already.

Oh, and Com Guards black ops masquerading itself as Capellan black ops unit (down to serial numbers) attempted to steal/destroy NAIS' copy of Helm computer library (which they could have replaced from Lyran allies). And before that, one jerk from ComStar tried to keep Helm library out of Gray Death's hands. So there is something to conspiracy theory.

[Frabby]

Battledroids doesn't mention ComStar at all. Neither does most of the very early BattleTech material, down to the plot of the first novel hinging on no HPG being available on Trellwan (or later, Verthandi in the follow-up novel).
I have that suspicion that Keith invented ComStar as a villain for his third book. See also here.

[glitterboy2098]

may i suggest a read through of Mendrugo's chronological fiction review? the index for the mid to late succession wars is [here]
he goes into a lot of the 'early installment weirdness" stuff, contrasting the old material when it was written vs how it works now that we've got newer products filling in the timeline around those old works, as well as the expanded setting materials since.

[Daryk]

A quick review of BattleTechnology articles will quickly reveal disagreement among the original PTB as to what "LosTech" really meant.  It's not surprising that the issue has survived to the current day.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Battledroids doesn't mention ComStar at all. Neither does most of the very early BattleTech material, down to the plot of the first novel hinging on no HPG being available on Trellwan (or later, Verthandi in the follow-up novel).
I have that suspicion that Keith invented ComStar as a villain for his third book. See also here.

If part of the plot was that there was no HPG, I wonder if the worlds that had them were supposed to be operated as part of the local nation, rather than Comstar...or if Comstar was just not brought up until later, but had been planned out at the time.  See also Wolves on the Border and the Clans.

[Frabby]

To clarify: I meant it only in the sense of requiring a courier JumpShip to get a message out. The plot would fall apart if Grayson could simply send a HPG message.

[Matti]

To clarify: I meant it only in the sense of requiring a courier JumpShip to get a message out. The plot would fall apart if Grayson could simply send a HPG message.

Or every world doesn't have working HPG