Author Topic: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?  (Read 26306 times)

Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #210 on: 20 March 2018, 21:04:17 »
Except that the people who gave us both the magic rifle and magic armor gave us the rules that say the former can indeed damage the latter.

Again, not in the edition where the auto-rifle first debuted, at least as far as core rules alone went.  Even AToW really only says that you can technically try to deal damage with the auto-rifle.  You're overwhelmingly likely to just waste mags and mags worth of ammo unless you have a skill rating at least 2 higher than normal, but no one is putting a hard cap in the rules explicitly forbidding it... unlike in MW3.

Daryk

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #211 on: 20 March 2018, 21:17:19 »
Well, this thread is about the current rule set, and yes AToW doesn't guarantee damage.  TW makes an abstraction that makes damage more likely.  That's in line with my expectations.  Damage isn't guaranteed, but it's also not impossible.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #212 on: 20 March 2018, 22:08:28 »
Part of the trouble is certainly the rules changes over the years.  For me they were pretty good when Infantry were abstracted to have support weapons, grenades, VLAWs, or other anti armor equipment despite being called "Rifle" Infantry and died at a more pronounced rate than they do now.  Helped me believe mechs were the kings of the battlefield and that they more clearly stood above all other unit types and why militias didn't really matter much unless they had mechs of their own.

massey

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #213 on: 20 March 2018, 23:22:50 »
Massey, the theoretical weapon with the huge magazine you're looking for is the Rorynex SMG, and the Stetta Auto-Pistol (emphasis mine, AToW p. 265).  And no, they're not particularly useful against BAR 10 armor.  Of course, they're not completely useless either.

Recoil compensation issues are reflected in the mere -1 to hit modifier inflicted by the 15 round burst from the Auto-Rifle (AToW p. 266).  And even that is compensated for by a mere 8 C-Bill additional Recoil Compensation system (AToW p. 286).  Yes, 200 years of tech advance counts for something (as Monbvol pointed out, the Auto-Rifle is Tech Level C, and so is the Recoil Compensation System).

Weirdo, sorry to see you depart this thread... I (at least) still think the rules as written are reasonable.



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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #214 on: 21 March 2018, 01:25:50 »
Guys, table tops have never gave us guns remotely realist. Example: my buddy was running a zombie survival game using a combination of Zombies!!! and the D20 system. I missed with a shotgun at point blank rang in a narrow hallway because game mechanics said nope. Table tops are not meant to be simulators, non of it is realistic and allot of it takes some imagination to make the logic work.
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Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #215 on: 21 March 2018, 01:56:06 »
Well, this thread is about the current rule set, and yes AToW doesn't guarantee damage.  TW makes an abstraction that makes damage more likely.  That's in line with my expectations.  Damage isn't guaranteed, but it's also not impossible.

The abstraction that TW is using is based on the prior edition of RPG rules.  The calculations don't even make the slightest bit of sense outside of the MW3 stats for weapons.

Daryk

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #216 on: 21 March 2018, 03:03:59 »
That's hilarious massey!  :thumbsup:

Carbon, I'm clearly not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me.  I think the rules are reasonable, even if they need some tweaks.  Infantry under the current rules can do significant damage if used right, and are relatively easy to counter if you plan for them.

massey

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #217 on: 21 March 2018, 16:55:26 »
I don't mind infantry being able to damage mechs.  I think they should be able to.  In fact I think the amount of damage a normal infantry squad can do is just about right.  I just think the designers made a mistake with how they described this damage occurring.  And I think auto-rifle platoons should probably be rebalanced versus other types of infantry.

Back in my day, SRM infantry did more damage than rifle infantry.  Now that's not the case anymore.  And that feels wrong to me.  The damage equation they use is all screwed up.

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But, just so this post isn't 100% agreeable and nice and everything :), I think the biggest argument against those superguns is the damage that melee and primitive weapons do.  Look at the stats for a heavy crossbow.  Look at the stats for a normal character using an axe.  Sure, rifles do more damage, but pistols are pretty much the same.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #218 on: 21 March 2018, 17:04:39 »
SRM Infantry still do more damage than Rifle at 17 versus 16, unless there is an errata I missed somewhere.

Aside from that I absolutely agree that there was a huge missed opportunity to keep Infantry relevant but make sure how they are relevant make more sense then it does now.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #219 on: 21 March 2018, 18:31:04 »
15 according to the table in Total Warfare. Which is odd because adding any of the SRM launchers to an infantry unit is a net gain.

EDIT: Actually, no, it isn't now that I think of it. I'm pretty sure the units in Total Warfare were created using the earlier stats found in combat operations.
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monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #220 on: 21 March 2018, 18:50:46 »
Gah, was a column off.

Still that is another indication that something is off that adding missiles to your infantry makes them longer ranged but less threatening.

Daryk

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #221 on: 21 March 2018, 18:51:57 »
I think that particular problem is all down to the Reload Factor in the formula.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #222 on: 21 March 2018, 19:02:50 »
And the Infantry SRMs are all sorts of weird.

HMS_Swiftsure

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #223 on: 21 March 2018, 19:17:19 »
I don't mind infantry being able to damage mechs.  I think they should be able to.

I agree with this, although I tend to think that basic rifles shouldn't.  Specifically anti-armor infantry should give 'Mechs some concern.

idea weenie

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #224 on: 21 March 2018, 19:56:32 »
Rifle design has been stagnant for a long time.  We keep running into the same problem, over and over again, that isn't really going to change.

1.  The purpose of a military rifle is to kill people.  It takes a certain amount of "damage" to reliably kill/incapacitate a person.

2.  Any round that does more "damage" than is necessary to kill a person is now overkill.  That means you've wasted space, weight, and ammo capacity just to put a bigger hole in something.  That's fine if you're hunting bears, but not if you're hunting humans.  Once he's dead, you can't make him more dead.

Let's say you have a super-rifle from 500 years in the future.  You could have advanced materials that make it lighter.  You could have an auto-aiming device to make it more accurate.  You could have super-propellant for your bullets that gives more force in a smaller package.  None of that changes the fact that, damage-wise, you're still aiming for something between the M-16 and the AK-47.

If you've got super-bullets that are 1/2 the size of the M-16's rounds, then you can now carry 60 round magazines instead of 30.  You don't need a gun that's twice as powerful as the M-16, because the M-16 reliably kills people.

The other option is changing out the barrel/chamber on the autorifle, so it fires fewer but heavier bullets.

I'd expect a field-swappable version of this essentially:
http://www.safetyharborfirearms.com/products/shtf-uppers/product/43-shtf-50-mag-fed-upper-conversion

CDAT

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Kind of late to this, but thought I would add my thoughts. I also think that infantry should have two different damage values. The anti-infantry and Anti-Armor (mech) damage, each with their own range and damage ratings. I also have no problem with infantry having limited ammo. But I thin the biggest issue I have with infantry is the magic transports that some of them have. I would make it so that you have foot infantry and jump/VTOL/etc. (back pack transport) infantry any infantry transports should be a separate vehicle, either on a separate sheet or on the same sheet for things like beast mounted infantry (kind of a 3rd option). With the beast mounted infantry you would have a chance to hit the beast or the troop something like 1-3 infantry, 4-6 mount for small individual mounts, 1-2 infantry, 3-6 for medium mounts, and 1 infantry, 2-6 for large (or bigger) mounts. If you have lost more mounts (mounts may have more than one hit point) than troops you have the option of moving at foot infantry speeds tell that changes or leaving behind the extra infantry that can not be mounted (they would be counted as casualties for purpose of the game, but not for a campaign). If you wanted you could also use this option for the bike mounted troops, with the exception that a pilotless mount does not follow along with the rest of the herd as a living animal does. So when you lose a mount you lose the troops with it or slow down to walking speed be that one per each bike, two per quad runner, or four per jeep, what ever you are using.

Nicoli

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That is completely out of whack to me.

1. Sub machine guns are not autorifles.

2. 28 autorifles clearly outperforming a mech machine gun against armor makes no sense.  Heck taking 4 and strapping them together and giving them a drum magazine is so competitive against armor that it is no contest which I'd want.

3. Looking into how close the throw weight of a mech machine gun(roughly 5kg) is to 28 autorifles(roughly 6kg) makes it hard to explain why 28 autorifles are so much better against armor, especially when you consider they have the same effective ranges and anti infantry capabilities of the two are reasonably comparable to each other.
Depends on armor construction. Most people are fairly familiar with the modern hard armors on vehicles today. But there are a lot of other less known armor types out there that would result in a similar result as battletech armor. I've worn a Composite armor where the outer layer was a polymer-foam that was extremely effective at absorbing the initial energy of a shot, but was destroyed in the process. Ended up causing the weird thing where it was often safer to be shot by a few large rounds then a bunch of small ones. There are a couple of armors that use bags of non-Newtonian fluids to absorb the energy but each hit lets the fluid leak so a bunch of smaller hits is also worse then a few large hits.

I liked an advanced version of the foam armor with the anti-laser layers as a form of rebar with thin sheet metal covering in most parts as my idea of what battletech armor is. Explains how techs are able to repair it up to full so quickly and easily without needing armor designed for each mech.

monbvol

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The trouble is as I pointed out the number of impacts, mass of the individual impactors, and velocity of the impactors are all actually pretty close together.  Enough that I'm not sure it can explain the difference in effectiveness.

Nicoli

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The trouble is as I pointed out the number of impacts, mass of the individual impactors, and velocity of the impactors are all actually pretty close together.  Enough that I'm not sure it can explain the difference in effectiveness.
Well, under the prototype armor that I wore. Rapid shots in a small area wouldn't be as damaging compared to a bunch of shots spread out over the armor. Just because of the mechanics of the way the foam dispersed energy. The non-Newtonian fluid armor would behave similarly because the fluid would be rigid under stress and have not had a chance to leak out yet . Under normal harden steel/hard composite a bunch of smaller impacts are less of an issue then continuous impacts in a small area.

Oops its Shear-thickening liquid armor not non-newtonian though that may be a subtype. https://youtu.be/kot_maQXj54

massey

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Depends on armor construction. Most people are fairly familiar with the modern hard armors on vehicles today. But there are a lot of other less known armor types out there that would result in a similar result as battletech armor. I've worn a Composite armor where the outer layer was a polymer-foam that was extremely effective at absorbing the initial energy of a shot, but was destroyed in the process. Ended up causing the weird thing where it was often safer to be shot by a few large rounds then a bunch of small ones. There are a couple of armors that use bags of non-Newtonian fluids to absorb the energy but each hit lets the fluid leak so a bunch of smaller hits is also worse then a few large hits.

No, it still doesn't make sense.  Because then mech machine guns would just shoot very low caliber ammunition at an insane rate of fire.  If big ass guns didn't work, they'd just switch to something that did.

Daryk

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The insane rate of fire would imply some level of heat.  I think the 'mech machine gun represents the "sweet spot" for damage at 1/2/3 range and 0 heat.

monbvol

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No, it still doesn't make sense.  Because then mech machine guns would just shoot very low caliber ammunition at an insane rate of fire.  If big ass guns didn't work, they'd just switch to something that did.

*nod*

The numbers do seem to indicate mech machine guns are firing a fairly substantial number of smaller rounds at insane rates of fire.

The 5kg number I came up with is a bit high because part of that number would be ammunition feeds and the actual weight of the bin itself but it is still enough to take out up to 24 infantry, that indicates an absolute bottom limit of 24 rounds being fired every trigger pull, I actually fully expect there to be far more but we do not have enough data to be sure.

Compared to the 32 infantry that can be taken out by an autorifle platoon and that it is roughly 6kg but again part of that would be the magazine and we do actually know how many rounds are being fired at maximum(420) does tell me that mech machine guns probably are firing a similar amount.  If they were not the maximum potentials wouldn't be so close.

It honestly wouldn't bug me so much if the armor behaved consistently but it doesn't.

The insane rate of fire would imply some level of heat.  I think the 'mech machine gun represents the "sweet spot" for damage at 1/2/3 range and 0 heat.

You can put quite a few rounds through a minigun before it gets hot enough to be a concern.

Daryk

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My theory is that miniguns are smaller caliber than 'mech machine guns.  I'm not sure how many rounds you can put through a GAU-19 before worrying about heat...

EDIT: And it can argued that the multi-barrel configurations of miniguns is a form of heat sink...
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 21:52:07 by Daryk »

monbvol

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Considering how long the trigger was being held down and how quickly the gunner was back on the trigger in the first youtube video I found of the GAU-19 firing, easily in the hundreds of rounds.

Nicoli

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Considering how long the trigger was being held down and how quickly the gunner was back on the trigger in the first youtube video I found of the GAU-19 firing, easily in the hundreds of rounds.
True, but then you run into the issue of facing units with hardened faced armor in which case your screwed. This is the interesting thing of the constantly shifting armor/weapon dynamic. Somethings phase in and out of effectiveness weapons and countermeasures evolve. Good example is the old battleships of WWII. Against most modern naval weapons they are almost immune as modern weapons are actually not well designed to defeat the high-thickness face-hardened armor of the period.

So you could fit a bunch of 5.56 miniguns on it and fill up half your mech with ammo to feed them. Then the next mechs off the line drop a weapon or two and thicken up the exterior armor face to bounce them or you run into reinforced-concrete defensive structures which laugh at you. So most-likely your going to rely on much better all-around weapons for your main guns, and your machine guns on mechs would most likely have a burst limiter to keep a mechwarrior from emptying his entire ammo load out in a single trigger pull like what happens in all planes. Even on weapons without it your constantly drilled to only fire short bursts as you can easily waste ammo.

Cannonshop

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going back to the original question; 

"Sort of".

I would've liked to see a clear separation between 'support weapons' and 'standard weapons', possibly something along the lines of a set of 'ammo boxes' for the support weapon column.

in this case, your 'support weapons' would be 'mech/vehicle scale weapons like the aforementioned SRM/LRM launchers, man-portable PPC units, support lasers and support MG's.

Every nth man killed in the platoon, you tick off a box.

Standards would have longer ranges against other light infantry units so that platoons don't have to be standing in each other's boots to inflict damage.

but then, I'd take the 'anti infantry' weapons and proably triple their range going from 'mech to man.  (IOW a 'mech mounted MG would do 2d6-out to 18 hexes or so against unprotected infantry in the open.) far outranging the infantry's anti-'mech weapons (with the exception of field gun units, which would be specifically tied to mechanized type.)

Thus, keeping infantry 'relevant', but also preventing the "sword platoon with sniper rifles" from damaging 'mechs out to 6 hexes with 24 damage from the vibroswords somehow magically transporting their cutting edges 180 some-odd meters across open ground.

(and other hilarious misreadings of the rules).

also a separate 'box' for one-shot weapons like VLAWs and the like, which could give a platoon a 20-28 point hit...once in a battle scenario (unless they're adjacent to something like a j-27 ammo transport or an actual, separate, has-its-own-stats APC.)

Dug in infantry would get variable protections:

In woods: 1/2 damage (manpower losses, still tracking by deadguys) from anti-infantry weapons (except fire, fire kills everything.)
In Rubble: 1/4 damage
Hardened positions: 'mech weapons do 'mech damage.  a Machine gun against hardened, prepared positions will kill one guy if it kills anyone at all, but an autocannon 5 will smear five guys into paste and reduce the structure to rubble on that facing/hex.

see what I'm saying?
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Weirdo

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Daemion

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #237 on: 19 October 2018, 22:28:41 »
[thread necro] (It seemed the best place to put this-)

I finally figured out what bugged me about using support weapons to define ranges for the primarys: The grouping.

I'd be fine with it if the damage was spread out over however many support weapons remained in the platoon, and not in groups of two.  I can't envision a guy with an SRM spraying his missile over more than one location. A group of four would have to get lucky to manage to spread it out that evenly so that the bullets could have an effect.  Usually, I look at anything that spreads across locations as ineffective 'miss' shots.

And, before anyone talks about tracking number of hits in two point groupings on a location 'due to the nature of infantry weapons', I'd point to autocannons, which also fire clusters of shells, which all apply as one damage block.

So, yeah. If that were fixed, I'd be somewhat okay with the infantry construction rules and their depiction, except for Mechanized, but that horse's carcass has been beaten to nigh oblivion.

Otherwise, I'm still up for a touch more grit. Or, maybe putting infantry on their own playing field, like a revised BattleTroops.



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Koshirou

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #238 on: 20 October 2018, 03:19:05 »
I use variant rules. (3025 era only so far.)
- Infantry platoons are divided into squads (the typical BTech squad being 7 men, with 4 squads in a platoon, but organization can be flexible.)
- An infantry squad can operate one support weapon in addition to its regular infantry armament, the latter being effective only against other infantry. This support weapon is a light machine gun (additional firepower against infantry, with no anti-'Mech value) or the equivalent of one of the following Mech weapons: Machine gun (a HMG in infantry terms), small laser, flamer or SRM-2. These crew-served support weapons can not be fired on the move. (Though highly advanced weapons such as the good old man-pack PPC from TRO3026 could be.)
- In lieu of support weapons, infantry can instead operate field guns much as per the usual rules.
- In addition, a normal infantry squad is assumed to be equipped with short-range anti-'Mech weapons (satchel charges and the like) which can be used to attack 'Mechs in the same hex for 2 points of damage.
- Attacks work using normal to-hit rolls, one roll being made for the entire platoon. Roll on the appropriate column of the missile hits table to determine the number of weapon hits, depending on how many squads are still operable in the platoon. Alternatively, to-hit rolls could be made for each individual squad.
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Four Davie scouts break into the perimeter! "What the devil!" as I grab my Neurohelmet and AC/10. Blow a hovercar-sized hole into the first 'Mech; he explodes on the spot.
Ready my small laser against the second 'Mech - misses him entirely since its effective range is 90 meters and nails the neighbour's Raxx.
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Ah... just like the House Masters intended!

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #239 on: 21 October 2018, 21:23:27 »
Hey, who remembers where fan rules belong?
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