Talk to me about... the CLAN LB 10-X

[Ruger]

Other solutions I thought of:
--2 ER LLs and a 3rd ton of ammo (slug) for the LB-10.  3 solid 10 point hits, 2 at range with no ammo expenditure, with option to switch to crit-seeking on one of them, AND heat-neutral, is something I can get behind.  Still not great for a Clan 80-tonner, but considering the Garg is really an overbulked 65-tonner, run with it.

It's strange, but in Clan tech, you almost have to think of the LB-10 as a secondary weapon.

cheers,

Gabe

Or 2 Heavy Large Lasers (or improved models), an extra heat sink and something to fill the final half ton (I would favor a light active probe or flamer)...two 16 point hits, and a 10 pointer...not much range difference, and the LB becomes your long ranged weapon...not as heat neutral, but it hits HARD, and the heat is not so bad that it can't be managed...

Ruger

[gyedid]

"Not much range difference" ...?

15 hexes for the LHL vs. 25 for the ER LL...?

cheers,

Gabe

[Kidd]

@gyedid - well yeah. Exactly. LBX/10s and Gauss are absolutely no contest to Clan energy weapons.

[Ruger]

"Not much range difference" ...?

15 hexes for the LHL vs. 25 for the ER LL...?

cheers,

Gabe

I was referring to the relatively minimal differences in range between the heavy large laser and the LB-10X in comparison to the vast differences in range between the clan ER large laser and the LB-10X...

IOW's, if you're trying to match ranges on the big guns, I feel the heavy large laser is a better match for the LB-10X than the ER large laser is to the LB-10X...now, a clan ER Large laser with with a pair of Clan LB-5X's might be good...

Ruger

[Nightsong]

I was referring to the relatively minimal differences in range between the heavy large laser and the LB-10X in comparison to the vast differences in range between the clan ER large laser and the LB-10X...

IOW's, if you're trying to match ranges on the big guns, I feel the heavy large laser is a better match for the LB-10X than the ER large laser is to the LB-10X...now, a clan ER Large laser with with a pair of Clan LB-5X's might be good...

Ruger

Yes, why the aforementioned Nova Cat config with the HLLs and AC is a nice combo. I do want to try that ERLL/LB5-X one though. Would actually be a slight tweak to the other nova cat mod that’s 2 LB and 1 Ultra, with a LPL.

[gyedid]

I was referring to the relatively minimal differences in range between the heavy large laser and the LB-10X in comparison to the vast differences in range between the clan ER large laser and the LB-10X...

Well OK, there I would agree.  But a design where the LB-10 is the longest-ranged weapon is still an infighter by Clan standards  ;D

Cheers, Gabe

[Demiurge]

As an aside, how does everyone imagine LBXs working?

If they fire one cartridge that contains a bunch of submunitions, taking the "giant anti-mech shotgun" description literally, then it doesn't particularly make sense that they have the same missile hits roll at all ranges.  Shouldn't they have some sort of penalty at long ranges and a bonus up close the way HAGs do?  And for that matter, why do they have the same range as solid shot?  Smaller projectiles would have much lower drag coefficients, so they shouldn't be able to reach as far.  And for that matter, why do they scatter while autocannons don't if autocannons are supposed to fire bursts?

I've long imagined them as shells with some sort of time or proximity fuse, like the Bofors 3P round.

But then, if that's the case, then LBXs ought to be able to hit targets behind defilade...

[Rince Wind]

In BT smaller ammo usually has a longer range.  #P

[Weirdo]

They're explicitly stated as being proximity fused.

[Empyrus]

While MechWarrior games portray LB-X as shotguns, i'm pretty sure they're implied to fire shells that have proximity fuse to explode just before they hit the target to shower it with fragments. Air-burst shells/grenades basically. This explains its effectiveness against aircraft neatly as well, not very different from WW2-era AA flak cannons. Firing shotgun-style blasts would likely have inferior ballistics for the fragments, reduce effective range.

HAGs are rapid-fire coil-guns. The cluster modifier represents effectiveness of rapid fire in close range and difficulty of keeping rapid-fire weapon aimed at a target. A bit different from LB-X, ignoring the fact autocannons are, well, autocannons...

I don't recommend reading too much into gameplay function of weapons though. It should be noted that autocannons are kinda intended to be rapid-fire weapons. And ultras and rotary ACs are basically really super-fast autocannons. Logically all these should basically function as cluster weapons. But were it so, weapons wouldn't be that different.
(Incidentally, pulse lasers probably should be cluster weapons as well. And standard beam lasers should have the accuracy bonus, at least based on MWO, it is surprisingly easier to keep long-duration beam aimed at the right place rather than a short pulsed beam...)

[Ruger]

In BT smaller ammo usually has a longer range.  #P

I rather liked the reasoning someone I once knew came up with to explain why autocannons work the way they do...basically, they do fire bursts, but the reason the larger ones are shorter range is that they tend to fire longer burst and/or larger ammunition in their bursts...but to damage BTech armor, the entire burst must be kept on target to hit a relatively small area...so longer bursts of smaller ammo, or shorter bursts of larger caliber ammo require greater recoil control, which means that your effective range tends to be much shorter as these numbers increase, as hits at ranges longer than the ones given in the rules result in hits too spread out to actually damage the target...

Ruger

[Weirdo]

That's my headcanon as well.

[Jellico]

There is less room in a small shell for the drogue chute.

[Terrace]

I rather liked the reasoning someone I once knew came up with to explain why autocannons work the way they do...basically, they do fire bursts, but the reason the larger ones are shorter range is that they tend to fire longer burst and/or larger ammunition in their bursts...but to damage BTech armor, the entire burst must be kept on target to hit a relatively small area...so longer bursts of smaller ammo, or shorter bursts of larger caliber ammo require greater recoil control, which means that your effective range tends to be much shorter as these numbers increase, as hits at ranges longer than the ones given in the rules result in hits too spread out to actually damage the target...

Ruger

That's how normal Autocannons work, which also neatly ties into my own headcanon for why Ultras have a chance to jam. I've always favored the idea that LB-X cluster rounds work based on proximity fuses. Once it gets close enough, the whole round bursts into a cloud of shrapnel (or maybe little bomblets, maybe that's why it's lostech). Solid LB-X ammo, on the other hand, is just a big slug.

[gyedid]

I rather liked the reasoning someone I once knew came up with to explain why autocannons work the way they do...basically, they do fire bursts, but the reason the larger ones are shorter range is that they tend to fire longer burst and/or larger ammunition in their bursts...but to damage BTech armor, the entire burst must be kept on target to hit a relatively small area...so longer bursts of smaller ammo, or shorter bursts of larger caliber ammo require greater recoil control, which means that your effective range tends to be much shorter as these numbers increase, as hits at ranges longer than the ones given in the rules result in hits too spread out to actually damage the target...

Ruger

Perhaps this also goes some way towards explaining why, for both LBs and Ultras, the larger calibres (10 & 20) don't get as much of a range boost compared to their standard counterparts as the 2s and 5s do?

cheers,

Gabe

[Ruger]

That's how normal Autocannons work, which also neatly ties into my own headcanon for why Ultras have a chance to jam. I've always favored the idea that LB-X cluster rounds work based on proximity fuses. Once it gets close enough, the whole round bursts into a cloud of shrapnel (or maybe little bomblets, maybe that's why it's lostech). Solid LB-X ammo, on the other hand, is just a big slug.

It would still apply to LB's as the proximity fused bomblets/shrapnel coukd still impact different areas of its target to cause the minimal damage of the spread...it would also help explain the misses...

Ruger

[Weirdo]

The point there would be to keep the prox-fused shells near each other when they go off, so that the bomblets can build off of each other and magnify the effect to something Battletech armor cares about.

[Scotty]

The problem I have with "bigger autocannons are more bullets kept on target, hence shorter range" is that we're told explicitly by physical attacks that high mass, high surface area attacks do better against BattleTech's magic armor.  You'd think it'd be better for an AC/20 to fire a single massive 203 mm shell (for an arbitrary example) than however many dozen smaller caliber shells.

It also seriously begs the question of "why can't I downgrade my damage for longer range?"  If the above is true, then an AC/20 should be able to voluntarily function as an AC/10 for a longer range punch.  If an AC/20 can't do that, then why the [bleep] not?  It can't be something like automatic safeties in the weapon, because you can bet your ass the first thing a canny merc is going to do is rip the safety out, and we're back to square one.

But I'm sure that's a hornets nest nobody seriously wants to stick their hand in.

[Kidd]

"...and our top story of the day, thirty-two more catgirls succumbed to the plague sweeping FASAfiziksland today. Emergency services are working around the clock to manage the sudden outbreak. Hospitals are filling up even as authorities call for calm and..."

[UnLimiTeD]

I feel I've read this exact chain of arguments before.
A always just assumed they utilized low recoil, low speed HEAT shells, or something to that effect - but then, where talking about nonsensical giant robots with a often cockpit conveniently located where a person would have it's head, that gets warm if you fire a laser in it's leg, carrying an active fusion reactor but somehow being able to utilize stealth composites....
Best not to think about it too much.
Though the range thing is sort of the problem with the clan LBX10. Too short to be a long range weapon, not enough punch for a real Brawler.

[Cannonshop]

The problem I have with "bigger autocannons are more bullets kept on target, hence shorter range" is that we're told explicitly by physical attacks that high mass, high surface area attacks do better against BattleTech's magic armor.  You'd think it'd be better for an AC/20 to fire a single massive 203 mm shell (for an arbitrary example) than however many dozen smaller caliber shells.

It also seriously begs the question of "why can't I downgrade my damage for longer range?"  If the above is true, then an AC/20 should be able to voluntarily function as an AC/10 for a longer range punch.  If an AC/20 can't do that, then why the [bleep] not?  It can't be something like automatic safeties in the weapon, because you can bet your ass the first thing a canny merc is going to do is rip the safety out, and we're back to square one.

But I'm sure that's a hornets nest nobody seriously wants to stick their hand in.

I always figured it was "Bigger projectiles, much smaller propellant charges".  Every round has to fit through the same passage (the hole in the joint between ammo bin in torso, and gun).  So you get explicitly lower velocities, and in a standard gravity well, explicitly shorter ranges, as your bore size increases.

which also explains why your Hypervelocity cannons blow up of their own accord occasionally-they're ramming hotter powder charges into the same volume of pressure vessel with the same mass of projectile-but without corresponding improvements to metallurgy.

[Scotty]

We had the metallurgical prowess in the 1980s to handle pressure charges far in excess of what BattleTech subjects autocannons to.  Unless something as relatively simple as the composition of effective gunpowder is Lostech (and we have zero reason to believe it is, since autocannons don't get magically longer ranges during the Star League) then the simple fact of the matter is that BattleTech's ballistics don't make sense.

I don't know why that's difficult to accept.

[Maingunnery]

We had the metallurgical prowess in the 1980s to handle pressure charges far in excess of what BattleTech subjects autocannons to.

Maybe you are underestimating the pressures in BT ACs.

Unless something as relatively simple as the composition of effective gunpowder is Lostech (and we have zero reason to believe it is, since autocannons don't get magically longer ranges during the Star League) then the simple fact of the matter is that BattleTech's ballistics don't make sense.

I don't know why that's difficult to accept.

Possible Range =!= Effective range.  ;)

[JadeHellbringer]

I'm baffled that the thread is turning into yet another tired argument about real life physics vs. Battletech weaponry. Sure that's what you guys want to do here? Hasn't that debate pretty much been run into the ground?  :-\

[Scotty]

Maybe you are underestimating the pressures in BT ACs.
Possible Range =!= Effective range.  ;)

the simple fact of the matter is that BattleTech's ballistics don't make sense.

I don't know why that's difficult to accept.

EDIT: Since the intent here wasn't to be as dismissive as it turned out being: the part that baffles me is why autocannons are the line in the sand that gets argued into the ground, when there are plenty of parts of BattleTech that make absolutely no sense already.

[Empyrus]

They stick out more so than many other aspects, i think.
Like, realizing that BattleTech spaceships are very unrealistic is on another level than realizing that autocannon progression seems really weird in comparison to real world weapons.

[UnLimiTeD]

You mean how they throw out mass far in excess of lightspeed?

I'm baffled that the thread is turning into yet another tired argument about real life physics vs. Battletech weaponry. Sure that's what you guys want to do here? Hasn't that debate pretty much been run into the ground?  :-\

And now everyone's digging.
It's a game about fighting robots, so everything already makes no sense, but sometimes, it does so too obviously.
Well, not that I don't agree with you.
So, as for the actual topic, did we reach any real verdict regarding clan LB10X?

[Empyrus]

Clan LB-10X: It works, but it is not really that great option.

[gyedid]

If you know you're going to be facing vehicle-heavy or aero-heavy forces, then the LB-10 should remain one of your go-to weapons.  If you're facing 'Mech-heavy forces, then it's not such a good choice and there are more effective options available.  Clan omni forces can take advantage of their flexibility, second-line forces will have fewer options at their disposal.

Cheers, Gabe

[Empyrus]

If playing Clans, i'd favor LB-5X for anti-vehicle and anti-air duties. It has better brackets and longer range. Maybe it isn't as effective but given its light weight, i'll probably have a large laser or ERPPC to go with it.