What to you constitutes an uber mercenary unit?

[Minemech]

What to you constitutes an uber mercenary unit? What units might you offer as examples?
 Some people seem to judge the mercenaries by their size. Others by their achievements in battle. Others still by their seeming inability to be harmed by events in their fluff.

 I myself argue that there is a difference between an above par unit, and an uber unit. I think that there would be a consensus that the Wolf's Dragoons are the uber unit par excellence of the Third Succession War, even if units like the Light Horse, or Big MAC are quite storied in that conflict.

[Dragon Cat]

The Blue Star Irregulars stand out to me capture a Clan Warship and use it

I don't class the Dragoons the same way due to their origins

The Kell Hounds became more of a renegade house unit than Merc

The Northwind Highlanders got mixed up in the AMC WoB fight which was never going to go well for them although during the Clan War some of their achievements were impressive

Too many Merc units become tied to one employer where they become part of that faction in all but name

[My Name Was Taken]

Having their own mech production facilities.  ::)

[Elmoth]

Able to invade a planet on their own. So a regiment or more. That makes their size less than palatable to me.
Yep, I know most important merc units fall in that category. I simply find most relevant merc units to be over the top and unbelievable. For me mercenary means living on the edge most of the time, with ups and also a lot of downs in real operations, gritty, clenched teeth. Not deadly beterflies flying over the plot of the books like Dysney princesses. The usual big merc units are so cool and awesome as to become totally uninteresting.

[Iron Grenadier]

Currently, the players in my group have their own merc unit - Hawkins Armored Cavalry that is becoming a little to "uber" I think. Of course as the GM I helped create it. Been running this for long time, not sure when we might end it, as we aren't following an exact canon timeline.

Here's a brief history overview. Your thoughts?

1. Formed from House Davion/3rd Crucis Lancer veterans in 3039, started as a combined arms battalion.
2. Raided heavily into CapCon during the 3040's, defeated Warrior House units.
3. Sat out Clan Invasion on garrison contract, then went to front lines starting in 3052.
4. Raided Clan Steel Viper and Jade Falcon's got plenty of salvage and some bondsmen.
5. Raided Sudeten - got Star League era mechs from a hidden bunker, rescued Olivetti Weaponry personnel.
6. Went to Chaos March in 3062, started in Anti-WoB ops (sort of by accident), got more salvage.
7. On Caph found a Star League bunker from Martinson Armaments containing more mechs and schematics for their designs.
8. Now in 3067 currently, and getting ready to strike a major blow against the Blakists

All this time, they have built the unit up. Full tech support, full dropship and jumpship support. They run a 4 lance/4 company mech battalion (one per player) - all heavy or assault class. Reinforced aerospace wing. PLUS a full armored regiment and a oversized infantry battalion. Average unit quality is veteran.

And they still built up a home base (on Marlette in the FedSuns) that they sent all the rescued Olivetti people too. Yeah they got a mech factory coming on line that will produce multiple designs.

No warships though.  xp

[Colt Ward]

To Iron Grenadier . . . as their GM, what bad things have you sent their way to reset them?

My mercs started in the Chaos March, had a early betrayal but have been slugging it out in the March b/c to me its a pretty good playground.  I play to have them involved with Regulus and go through the grinder of Operation Vijay on Gibson- which ends with fleeing with whatever survives to end up putting the pieces back together again.  TBH, in '67 no one but the AMC was engaged against the Blakists and they had not gone off the rails yet . . . though if they are on Caph they should run up against some Blakists enforcing the Protectorate IIRC.

Honestly, I think the trade off of getting production facilities in the Jihad would be a trickle of production going their way- and only just to replace steady losses they cannot replace any other way due to com problems and it being a seller's market.

[Iron Grenadier]

To Iron Grenadier . . . as their GM, what bad things have you sent their way to reset them?

Over the years they have gone up against -
Ryuken-Ni from the Draconis Combine.
Had a rivalry with Warrior House Ma-Tsu Kai and Richards Panzer Brigade during the 3040's.
Varied front line clan units on Sudeten, Dompaire and Antares.

Now in the Chaos March during the 3060's been up against all sort of WoB backed units. They kicked WoB off of Caph and were using it as a base. We just finished up a big fight on Hall against the Blakists.

Next up is going to be another big one against WoB. They are going to be part of a Dragoon/Dismal Disinherited task force. I just haven't decided which planet yet. After that probably just 1-2 more missions against Blake and then do something else.

And just to note again - from 3062 on we're not following canon timeline.

[Colt Ward]

Not talking about who they are going up against . . .

I am talking about GM's using no/impossible win situations to trim back the assets- did they end up outnumbered (in this overall context meaning out'BV'd) by those elite opposition units?  Get shafted on pay/support from a employer in the Chaos March?

Did they have to play though any survival marathons?
(Ok, our intel was crap . . . and now its too hot for our DS to come in.  We are getting surrounded by the Ryuken, we need to punch out and hump it over the next few mountains to meet our DS.  If your mech/tank goes down, we are going to have to abandon it if we are pressed.  Repairs and reloading ammo is going to be extremely limited, so what what you shoot at since its not likely you will get more shots.  We are going to lose equipment and we may lose people . . . if we cannot pick you up, hide out and wait for the fighting to pass before you set off your SAR beacon.  Its gonna be a hard fight but *rah rah rah* - Alpha you are leading the way, break us out!)

Not encouraging any sort of capricious GM decisions (huh, half your Devastator has been blown off?  Well, your head tech says it cannot be repaired- too much long term structural damage, micro fractures spread all through that mech's frame.  Guess you have to use that spare Panther you train recruits on.) but it sounded like you were not quite happy with how things had gone.  If you and they are happy playing 4X/budding empire type game, then go for it.

[Minemech]

 I like GMs who are good at running the economic, and financial aspects of the game. They force you to put thought into the long term consequences of your actions, and slow down your unit's growth. Mix that with no win situations, and you have to learn how to choose your battles. You can win that fight, just to be company stored by a cruel market. Sometimes the marginal victory is the better part of success.

 Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the designs you desire will not be open market. You may have to replace that Warhammer with a Banshee.

[MadCapellan]

If your unit's got more 'Mechs than Mechwarriors can fit on a pair of buses........your mercs might be a little out of control.
If the property owned by your unit constitutes one or more planetary surfaces.......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's solo operations can accurately described as a "front" in an interstellar war.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's custom 'Mech design is now a made-to-order product of a major manufacturing firm.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your counter-intelligence team's training manual is the target of a major ROM operation.....your mercs might be a little out of control.

[Colt Ward]

If your counter-intelligence team's training manual is the target of a major ROM operation.....your mercs might be a little out of control.

Lol . . . well, after '52 that is not as high a standard for ComStar as it once was . . . but pretty funny.  Now we just need to splice together Foxworthy's voice.

[Iron Grenadier]

Not talking about who they are going up against . . .

I am talking about GM's using no/impossible win situations to trim back the assets- did they end up outnumbered (in this overall context meaning out'BV'd) by those elite opposition units?  Get shafted on pay/support from a employer in the Chaos March?

Yeah they've been outnumbered a few times on the battlefield. Don't get me wrong they've lost plenty of mechs and mechwarriors over the years. I had a thread here earlier this year where their light armor got trashed and they lost about 3/4 of it most recently. A few years ago I hit their base camp pretty hard - they lost two dropships in that fracas.

[Kovax]

If your unit's got more 'Mechs than Mechwarriors can fit on a pair of buses........your mercs might be a little out of control.
If the property owned by your unit constitutes one or more planetary surfaces.......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's solo operations can accurately described as a "front" in an interstellar war.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's custom 'Mech design is now a made-to-order product of a major manufacturing firm.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your counter-intelligence team's training manual is the target of a major ROM operation.....your mercs might be a little out of control.

If your unit has to put an "s" after its major transportation assets (WarshipS, JumpshipS)……..your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your unit has to differentiate between Assault 'Mech companies (First Assault Company, Second Assault Company)......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your unit has a problem with its 'Mechwarrior skills running into negative numbers (P0, G-1).......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your unit has liason officers to insure that the House units operating under you remain faithful to the contract terms.......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your unit has developed technology that the Houses would like to steal.........your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your unit scares off Wolfs Dragoons from taking a contract........your mercs are WAY out of control.

[Frabby]

I consider a unit "uber" in a perjorative sense if and when they (in no particular order)

• consistently hold the morale high ground over opponents, employers and everybody else despite being mercs;
• always outsmart all their opponents by an order of magnitude, to the point of having foreseen and prepared for even the unlikeliest turn of events, and never have Murphy terminate their multi-layered circle within circle plans even the tiniest bit;
• can modify and optimize their equipment to boardgame rules instead of jury-rigging stuff to keep it in the fight, or cough up entirely new designs out of nowhere just because;
• have the whole universe bend around them so that they will always succeed no matter what the odds.

In short, the Kell Hounds and their ilk.
The Black Thorns at least had the saving grace to die ignominously.
And let's not even talk about Wolf's Dragoons.

[Colt Ward]

See, I do not think fixing with the proper parts after 3050 is a stretch for mercs for the following reasons-

1)  Tech revival- the IS now has the ability to start building equipment not seen since the First or Second SW.  They can also refurbish and get new production started going rather than rely on what survived.

2)  Mech proliferation-  Mech production numbers has gone up so much that national forces are no longer filled with owner/operators but rather professionals piloting assigned equipment from their nation.  So much mech production that the Houses sold off old equipment or put it into storage- even with their losses.

3)  Parts abundance-  By the mid-50s in fiction we do not have the scarcity of parts, for example a financially borderline unit like Avanti's Angels can restore what they salvage (Jagermech) with few problems.  The noted exception being finding a engine for the Ceaser as they are traveling- which IMO is more likely a money thing since from where they started in the Chaos March they are near 3 merc hiring hall worlds, and several major producers (Epsilon Eridani, Styk, Outreach, Tikonov and Nanking).  They are given a engine in the Periphery (land of scarcity!) which is a spare engine the garrison unit has on hand.

Initiation to War (noble militia), Ghost of Winter (periphery mercs), Chaos Irregulars, and other fiction of the period does not indicate a problem acquiring proper parts, but in most cases funding I think.

Similarly the Stealthy Tigers in their novel salvaged mechs from several contracts to re-build their 3rd battalion from Chaos March contracts.  The PC's brand new mech was salvage and put back into operation with out any noted problems.  The bottleneck for the Tigers was keeping their current machines running while having enough man-hours to put the salvage back into operation rather than missing parts.  None of them were described as being cobbled together with hope & a prayer of working.

[Deadborder]

Once a Merc unit is bigger then a single regiment, I quickly lose interest in it. There's a few exceptions, but I find that the smaller the unit, the more I get engaged with it

[Kovax]

Once a Merc unit is bigger then a single regiment, I quickly lose interest in it. There's a few exceptions, but I find that the smaller the unit, the more I get engaged with it

Agreed.  Above 1-2 Company size, the individual Mechwarriors begin to become just another name and face in a list, not a personality that I have an interest in following.  That problem is amplified for tank crews, since you've got several crewmen per vehicle.  I can track individual personnel for a lance of tanks and 2 lances of 'Mechs, but throw a Regiment into the campaign and it's all just numbers.  I tend to lose interest in a campaign once I've got more than about 2 Companies of stuff, and restart with a new lance-sized group.

As said, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

[phoenixalpha]

If your unit is becoming "uber" ie unbeatable in the field because of ability/numbers/sheer weight of mechs and it would require an "ultra" number of similar units to defeat it... ie would throwing a regular house regiment at it be no more than a speed bump so therefor would require something like a frontline Clan Galaxy or 2-3 elite RCTs to smash it then it has become unmanageably powerful (ie too powerful).

So if that's the script.... take it off field. If they are spoiling against the Blakists... well... they dont play fair. Nuke their "surplus" units in transit to a planet. Leave them with only core units, few supplies, a gutted command structure. Also Blakist spies infiltrate home base before they land, nerve agent the base, all dependents now gone - nothing to go back to.... factory a smouldering, glowing crater. Take them out and leave the core behind, they'll crush the Blakists on the ground of course, possibly going close (or over) the line on war crimes against the Blakists.... but they can rebuild from the core up, but all that surplus is gone. That's how the WoB play - nasty :)

[Dave Talley]

its a little easier to trim them now that they have multiple
long term adversaries, a Wobblie tip or payment to any or all
of them plus a few extra toys can really take down large parts
of the unit

plus if they are mostly heavy/assaults then simply have a battle where suddenly a battery of ArrowIV carriers start dropping T aug mines around them, followed by a wave of inferno IV while a bunch of fast heavies and mediums start dancing around the edges blasting folks who can either run thru mines or just stand there and take it

btw Arrow IV carrier is simply LRM carrier chassis with 4tons of ammo and dual Arrow launchers

[Iron Grenadier]

Once a Merc unit is bigger then a single regiment, I quickly lose interest in it. There's a few exceptions, but I find that the smaller the unit, the more I get engaged with it

Do you prefer the smaller units for the role playing aspect, or just easier to manage in general?

[Sharpnel]

Do you prefer the smaller units for the role playing aspect, or just easier to manage in general?

For me it would be both.

[Deadborder]

Do you prefer the smaller units for the role playing aspect, or just easier to manage in general?

Both. A smaller unit allows for better development of individual characters and subgroups within the unit, and allows for more "personality" then a larger scale one. Liekwise, it's a lot easier to construct scenarios and storylines for a smaller unit then a larger one.

That and I just generally find larger units to be dull.

[Minemech]

 Company battles allow for more advanced maneuvering than lance fights, whilst not getting stuffy. Battalion fights can turn either way.

  A regiment sized unit should be tedious to maintain due to its levels of upkeep, and competition trying to buy off your troops, while being mixed in its reward. That tension between the benefits between downsizing, and those interest of an employers in your unit size, makes such units all the more interesting to maintain.

[Iron Grenadier]

Both. A smaller unit allows for better development of individual characters and subgroups within the unit, and allows for more "personality" then a larger scale one. Liekwise, it's a lot easier to construct scenarios and storylines for a smaller unit then a larger one.

That and I just generally find larger units to be dull.

It's always interesting to me hearing about other players experiences/thoughts. Our first campaign years ago the players ran with a much smaller unit. We had fun with it for a bit, but everyone wanted to scale it up. I think part of this is just how we've evolved with our different games. Start out small, scale up, then scale back down. Star Frontiers, DnD, Rifts it's all been the same for our group. I imagine in a few years I'll be running these guys in some sort of combined arms company at best rather than something approaching an LCT.

[phoenixalpha]

We played a company of MechWarriors in our BT game, which were part of a bigger regiment. That way we could "plan" the overall strategy of any battle and then use the company of mechwarriors to play a section of the battle and depending on the outcome of the company battle that would result in the outcome of the larger battle.

[Kovax]

Do you prefer the smaller units for the role playing aspect, or just easier to manage in general?

As Sharpnel and Deadborder have both put it, "both".  I can RP a handful of officers and key personnel, but beyond that they're just statistics.  A few statistics isn't a problem, but too many and I no longer find it entertaining, it's too much like a job.

Besides, when you've salvaged your third assault 'Mech in a month, and your techs still haven't gotten enough parts to fix the 4 from the previous month, it gets ridiculous.  I don't like playing Assault 'Mechs, because to me, the maneuver and hit-and-fade aspects are why I play, not to park in cover and roll an enormous pile of dice.  The only reasons I field Heavies are to serve as an anvil for my more mobile forces to break the enemy upon, and to fall back to for protection in case of problems.

[Colt Ward]

Which makes me wonder why you are facing that many assaults?  They are more common than they were in '20s but depending on what you run and against who it should also be mostly meds & heavies though with the amount of 4/6 IS mechs they will not go much faster than the assault 3/5s.

My main mercs are mostly meds & heavies with very few lights (vehicles, BA & VTOLs cover the scout duties) and depending on the fluff of who they are facing, its not often a lot of assaults.  Heavy Hell Raisers were given more assaults of course, but they are a Chaos March unit and so face mostly that . . . though the Tai Mech plant building Victors had Victors defending of course.  Then again, my mercs have a Battlemaster 1D, Thug 10E, Victor 9D, and Zeus 9S as their only assault mechs in two companies of mechs.

[Minemech]

 If you are fighting against enough assaults to salvage a lance within a month, you ought to have been fighting against a unit designed to bulldoze, with full artillery and air support backing them; that or a lucky militia with many Banshees.

[Elmoth]

Does having an overabundance of banshees make you lucky? Are you sure about that?

[Minemech]

Does having an overabundance of banshees make you lucky? Are you sure about that?

It grants a militia a mech that can mop the floor with mediums, and that can frustrate, or defeat heavies. Militias do not expect to take on the best of enemies, without the support of line units. The only danger is that that engine is not the most desired cost.