Author Topic: Help with Kuritan noble titles needed  (Read 1172 times)

ArcaneRaven

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Help with Kuritan noble titles needed
« on: 07 October 2018, 14:27:56 »
Can anyone help me with contradictory informations on Kuritan noble titles? I am comparing informations from two sources: Handbook: House Kurita and A Time Of War: Companion:

Handbook: House Kurita, p. 117

Knight / LadyLord / Lady
Baron / BaronessShugo
Count / CountessTozama Daimyo
Marquis / MarquessaDaimyo
Duke / DuchessShogun

A Time Of War: Companion, p. 42

T1Kuge
T2Samurai
T3Fudai Daimyo
T4Shugo
T5Shishaku
T6Tozama Daimyo
T7Koshaku
T8Daimyo
« Last Edit: 07 October 2018, 14:29:30 by ArcaneRaven »

jklantern

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Re: Help with Kuritan noble titles needed
« Reply #1 on: 07 October 2018, 14:46:57 »
On one hand, HB:  HK is the more recent source.

On another hand, something has always fundamentally bothered me with having "Shogun" be a run of the mill noble title.  Really, I feel like the Gunji No Kanrei is more the proper equivalent of the historical Shogun role.

On a third hand, if you go through the various planets and important people in HB: HK, you see that the titles aren't even used consistently, with I think there being maybe two people with the title "Shogun," and then a whole pantload of Daimyo and Tozama Daimyo, and the odd Planetary and District Chairman thrown in for the mix.  Heck, I think there may even still be some Dukes tossed in there, and the world Algedi (one of the important Azami Worlds) is ruled by a Caliph.

Soooo...yeah.  I don't think it's quite as hard and fast as other Successor States, especially because the real authorities, it seems, are the District Warlords anyway.

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MadCapellan

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Re: Help with Kuritan noble titles needed
« Reply #2 on: 07 October 2018, 16:09:35 »
Outside the enormous heaps of anachronism blending multiple historical systems of titles, I don't think there's anything unreconcilable between the two, although the application of the term Shogun for a mere Duke does stand out as a bit inappropriate linguistically. Besides being a military title that literally means "War Leader", it's a title that would presumably have supremacy over that of Gunji-no-Kanrei, which doesn't seem to be the case.

What you have is a blend of three distinct Japanese systems of noble titles: The original Imperial Court in Kyoto from the Heian through the Kamakura period, the system created by the Tokugawa Shogunate following the Sengoku era, & finally the Westernized peerage established by the restored Emperor Meiji.

Daimyo refers to the leader of a powerful independent military clan, that following the end of the Sengoku era was a direct vassal of the Shogun. The amount of land & authority they held was completely variable, ergo there were numerous categories of Daimyo. Tozama Daimyo refers to a Daimyo who's Clan was not an established ally of the Tokugawa, who typically held lands distant from the capital. Fudai Daimyo, on the other-hand, were the most trusted allies of the Shogun who were often assigned small plots of lands in strategically important locations.

Shishaku & Koshaku on the other hand, are Meiji era titles that most closely parallel what we see in Western nobility - the titles were created to be directly equivalent of Viscount & Marquis directly.

A Shugo was a local noble authority under the Shogun prior to the Sengoku period, most of which either consolidated their control & became Daimyo or were usurped & their lands absorbed.

Kuge referred to the Kyoto court's aristocracy as a whole, it is not a title.

While this is unofficial, I suggest the two tables be treated as complimentary as follows:

        ATOW                         HBHK
        Civil Title                   Military Courtesy Title
T1   Kuge                          -
T2   Lord/Lady                   Samurai
T3   Danshaku                   Fudai Daimyo
T4   Danshaku                   Shugo
T5   Shishaku                    Tozama Daimyo
T6   Hakushoku                 Tozama Daimyo
T7   Koshaku (侯爵)            Daimyo
T8   Koshaku (公爵)            Shogun

One is an official civil title of peerage. The other is an equivalent military courtesy title granted to a peer of appropriate rank. The noble in question as well as the speaker will of course emphasize whichever title better suits the situation & their personal priorities. We've already got a "They use both titles as the situation dictates" explanation from Handbook: House Kurita. Further extrapolating from that to bring some semblance of order to the overlapping application of titles doesn't seem like much of a stretch!

jklantern

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Re: Help with Kuritan noble titles needed
« Reply #3 on: 07 October 2018, 16:12:16 »
Outside the enormous heaps of anachronism blending multiple historical systems of titles, I don't think there's anything unreconcilable between the two, although the application of the term Shogun for a mere Duke does stand out as a bit inappropriate linguistically. Besides being a military title that literally means "War Leader", it's a title that would presumably have supremacy over that of Gunji-no-Kanrei, which doesn't seem to be the case.

What you have is a blend of three distinct Japanese systems of noble titles: The original Imperial Court in Kyoto from the Heian through the Kamakura period, the system created by the Tokugawa Shogunate following the Sengoku era, & finally the Westernized peerage established by the restored Emperor Meiji.

Daimyo refers to the leader of a powerful independent military clan, that following the end of the Sengoku era was a direct vassal of the Shogun. The amount of land & authority they held was completely variable, ergo there were numerous categories of Daimyo. Tozama Daimyo refers to a Daimyo who's Clan was not an established ally of the Tokugawa, who typically held lands distant from the capital. Fudai Daimyo, on the other-hand, were the most trusted allies of the Shogun who were often assigned small plots of lands in strategically important locations.

Shishaku & Koshaku on the other hand, are Meiji era titles that most closely parallel what we see in Western nobility - the titles were created to be directly equivalent of Viscount & Marquis directly.

A Shugo was a local noble authority under the Shogun prior to the Sengoku period, most of which either consolidated their control & became Daimyo or were usurped & their lands absorbed.

Kuge referred to the Kyoto court's aristocracy as a whole, it is not a title.

While this is unofficial, I suggest the two tables be treated as complimentary as follows:

        ATOW                         HBHK
        Civil Title                   Military Courtesy Title
T1   Kuge                          -
T2   Lord/Lady                   Samurai
T3   Danshaku                   Fudai Daimyo
T4   Danshaku                   Shugo
T5   Shishaku                    Tozama Daimyo
T6   Hakushoku                 Tozama Daimyo
T7   Koshaku (侯爵)            Daimyo
T8   Koshaku (公爵)            Shogun

One is an official civil title of peerage. The other is an equivalent military courtesy title granted to a peer of appropriate rank. The noble in question as well as the speaker will of course emphasize whichever title better suits the situation & their personal priorities. We've already got a "They use both titles as the situation dictates" explanation from Handbook: House Kurita. Further extrapolating from that to bring some semblance of order to the overlapping application of titles doesn't seem like much of a stretch!

I knew there HAD to be someone more familiar with Japanese Nobility/History than me on here!  Awesome, MadCap!
I'm not sure how long you've been around on the forums, though you have a thousand posts. Never take anything JKlantern says seriously unless it's about food.