(Answered) Attack declaration (direct) Artillery fire

[ivo]

Hi all, long time player, first time poster and I hope this fond of general Battletech knowledge van help me out. I'm not sure if this specific question has already been asked and awnsered somewhere here, but a full nights worth of searching didn't give me a satisfying answer.

the rules for artillery (TO:181-185) state that the target hex has to be declared (in secret) in the new artillery fase (which is after determining initiative, but prior to the movement fase). it then stated that these attacks are resolved after the movement fase, but prior to the weapon attack fase > for Indirect fire
For Direct artillery fire it is stated that the attack takes place in the weapon attack fase, but it is not completely clear when the attack has to be declared...

when following the rules as I would read and interpret them, I would think that both direct and indirect artillery fire targets hexes have to be declared (in secret) in the "artillery fase" directly after rolling initiative, but are both resolved in a different fase (namely after movement if indirect and during normal combat if direct).

Is this correct? would love to here your opinion, interpretation or rules-based explanation why i'm wrong ;)

[Xotl]

Just like other weapon attacks that are resolved in the weapon phase, direct-fire shots are declared in that same phase.

[ivo]

hi, thanks for your quick and clear answer, and i agree that that would make the most sense.
however, it does leave you with discrepancies in case circumstances change mid-round, specialy during movement.

for example, a mobile long tom is targeting hex A during the artillery fase which is 18hexes away.. during the following movement fase there is a necessity to advance and he moves one hex forward, closing the distance to his target hex to 17. since there is no intervening terrain, does that mean his attack changes from indirect to direct (with the corresponding modifiers and the disregard of spotters) or does it change to indirect within 17 hexes since his initial attack declaration was indirect or does it stay the same regardless of the new distance.

next round it gets even worse; the long Tom again wants to target hex A which is still 17 hexes away in direct firing range. he therefor holds of his attack declaration until the weapons fase. during the movementfase enemy movements press forward and the mobile long tom unit retreats one hex, making the distance to hex A 18 again!
does that then mean that he is unable to make the attack he fully intended to make because (since it is now indirect fire) had to make this declaration before moving?

also on a slightly related subject; am i correctly assuming that spotters have no effect when dealing with direct (or indirect within 17) artillery attacks? the modifiers mentioned say nothing of the spotter table...

[Xotl]

First scenario: During the targeting Phase, the weapon is declared as indirect, and so that attack has to be resolved that way regardless of what happens subsequently.

Second scenario: Correct. The Long Tom will have to wait until the next turn's targeting phase to declare an indirect shot.  Players are advised to consider such difficulties before choosing to move their artillery near the seventeen-hex line from their likely target zones.  The reverse also applies: you don't fire indirectly because you're hoping for a direct shot that turn on a unit you believe will move to 17 or less of you. That never occurs, so you now either don't fire the weapon at all, or you fire it at a hex within 17 of you. (Who knows, maybe it will drift to your benefit?)

Third question: Spotters only help indirect attacks, regardless of the # of hexes.

[ivo]

ok, clearer still 😊

if I might ask for one more level of clarification:

First scenario: the attack will be resolved indirect as is declared. does that mean that the target hex changes (the distance that is declared stays the same that way) or does the hex stay the same. if the later, does the modifier change from +7 to +4 since the distance is now 17 or less?

Second scenario: thats all clear, thanks

Third question: Spotters only help indirect attacks, regardless of the # of hexes. > does that include indirect under 17? because the modifiers as described in the  Artillery Modifiers Table (TO;180) are not mentioned there at all... based on the rules as described i would not be sure whether to add them or not.

not to be rude, but in my opinion this chapter of the book could use further clarification (but i love the book regardless 😊 )


thanks for your answers, this really helps

[Xotl]

First scenario: the attack will be resolved indirect as is declared. does that mean that the target hex changes (the distance that is declared stays the same that way) or does the hex stay the same. if the later, does the modifier change from +7 to +4 since the distance is now 17 or less?

The modifiers are locked in the moment the attack is declared.  The unit could immediately die, and it would still be resolved.  The distance won't change regardless of what the firing unit does subsequently.  Only the distance the *moment* the attack is declared matters.  That's when the missile is launched, or cannon is fired.

So, +7.

Third question: Spotters only help indirect attacks, regardless of the # of hexes. > does that include indirect under 17? because the modifiers as described in the  Artillery Modifiers Table (TO;180) are not mentioned there at all... based on the rules as described i would not be sure whether to add them or not.

You use a +7 modifier for indirect fire, regardless of range.
You use a +4 for direct fire, and only if the target is at 17 or less.
You can only benefit from spotters for indirect fire.

[ivo]

ok... now you got me confused, because in a earlier post you stated the following:

Indirect Fire, within 17 hexes: Gunnery Skill +4 + Attacker's movement modifier

(the +4 comes because it's under the full page Direct Fire heading on p. 185 which states that "In all instances, start with the attacker’s Gunnery Skill as a base to-hit number, with a +4 to-hit modifier; apply all other modifiers as noted below."  So it's a hybrid between Direct and Indirect attack)

(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,21537.0.html)

this seems to contradict, or am I missing something?

[Paul]

It's too bad neither of us found that post sooner! :p

This is correct:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=21537.msg526757#msg526757

So the +7 modifier is for targets at 18+ hexes, the +4 for targets at 17 or less, contrary to the prior post.

 

[ivo]

ok, thanks.
and regarding the spotters under 17? yes or no on the modifiers?

[Paul]

Only for indirect.