Minimum ranks?

[GOTHIK]

I've been away from the game for a couple of years and I'm trying to find something that I'm not certain exists.
Is there a table with professions like mechwarrior, jumpship "captain", etc. and any corresponding minimum (or average) rank for that profession?

[Atlas3060]

There are ranks in ATOW and specific ones for factions in the Companion, but does it mean you're suddenly a Mechwarrior or Jumpship Captain?
Not necessarily.
Part of that is the fluff of the nations in general.
Here's what I mean, on the ATOW Companion at pg 28 if you're a Officer 1 to 2, then you're a lance commander or warrior in the Sphere and Star Commanders are Officer 2.
Yet if I flip a few pages out to the Fedsun chart, Mechwarrior Sgt is Enlisted 7.
Others don't really list out "Mechwarrior" in their ranking chart either, so I suppose someone could get a Field Manual and research that.

[GOTHIK]

There are ranks in ATOW and specific ones for factions in the Companion, but does it mean you're suddenly a Mechwarrior or Jumpship Captain?

Certainly not. But there's probably some kind of minimum pre-req. I mean, we probably don't see too many Chief Petty Officers commander aircraft carriers or nuclear submarines. And even if we did, it's reasonable to assume that the bonus for achieving your E7 doesn't include the keys to a new ship just waiting around in drydock. LOL

Here's what I mean, on the ATOW Companion at pg 28 if you're a Officer 1 to 2, then you're a lance commander or warrior in the Sphere and Star Commanders are Officer 2.
Yet if I flip a few pages out to the Fedsun chart, Mechwarrior Sgt is Enlisted 7.
Others don't really list out "Mechwarrior" in their ranking chart either, so I suppose someone could get a Field Manual and research that.

I thought there was already such a table, and perhaps I'm thinking of the ones you referenced.
And sure ... Field Manuals ... but why reinvent the wheel if the table already existed. LOL
I'll check out the ones you referenced; thank you!

[Daryk]

A more complicated answer to your question can be found in the prerequisites for various Skill Fields and Schools.  Does lack of a Field or School diploma prevent you from doing any given job (e.g. MechWarrior)?  Certainly not, but it does make it harder to be GOOD at it.

[Col Toda]

Mech warriors tend to be O1 or E5 I believe.  Tank commaders are E3 . Lance commanders O1 or E6 and company commanders O2 for mechs and O1 for tanks .

[Daryk]

I usually use O-0 (Warrant Officer) for MechWarriors.

[Failure16]

While not specifically germane to AToW rankings/rules, I am also a believer in MechWarriors being ranked as Warrant Officers if not in leadership positions, whereupon they would be commissioned officers. While it may not be especially realistic, I tend to rank my MechWarriors as MW1 (Green) to MW4 (Elite)*, because it is easy on the spreadsheets.

In universe, it makes too much sense. Even a ten-year-old me thought it silly to have a private in charge of a BattleMech, especially when the conceit back in those golden olden days was that a MechWarrior generally outranked nearly every other conventional soldier (within reason, work with me here). Too much power in the hands of someone that would have had (again, remember the contemporaneous milieu) years of training before their first active-duty posting to simply be an entry-level enlisted slob.

So make them non-commissioned officers? Negative. That is an important part of any military worth its salt, and it has to be earned (see the US Vietnam experience, where many rose to the occasion, but even more did not and were derided for their entire tour, if they even made it that far.)

Commissioned officers, the lot of them? This ain't the USAF, bub. Besides, Starship Troopers taught me a lot of things, and one of them was to watch my enlisted-to-officer ratio. I want my officers leading, commanding, or learning new and interesting things staff-side while they wait for a line billet. Besides, why should I pay everyone top C-Bill if I don't have to? (Back when I made my first mercenary regiment, I took a military payscale chart, divided by five, and that is what everyone got. Easy. But I knew even then I didn't want a hundred-plus lieutenant salaries!)

So, warrants they quickly became. Cool, calm professionals that could focus on their profession of arms, not take orders from random infantry squad leaders and tank commanders, but still have to listen to their lance commanders (you know, when t hey felt like it because, well, warrant officers). And, bonus, they were only a polishing school away from being fully commissioned themselves. Nice.


*It would be even easier to reverse the numbering system to make it reflect closer to the nominal skill numbers, but I'm too used to US warrant officer rankings (dem crusty CW4's...) to let it go.

[drjones]

The warrant officer model for MechWarriors who aren't lance (or above) commanders does make sense. (Adding the idea of a MechWarrior sergeant almost seems to veer into U.S. police force rank structures.) I don't recall seeing discussion of specific ranks within "MechWarrior as a (warrant officer) rank" in the BT material I've read, but it could make sense. I don't think I've ever really gotten a solid sense as to whether the MechWarrior "career track" (if that's even a relevant concept in a feudal, nobility oriented military structure) is supposed to have everyone aiming for unit command or whether there's a separate track for those who aim to become the best MechWarrior possible (or just survive to retirement) without taking on command responsibility. (My familiarity with the RPGs is limited to MW1e and Destiny so perhaps there's more detail in that line of products.)

[Daryk]

The US Air Force has a career option where pilots can give up on the Command Track to keep flying for as long as possible.  That caps them at Major, though... still a commissioned rank (and not a junior one, either).

[Failure16]

Yeah, but when you exist in a continuum where everyone around you is an officer as well, O-5 is still middlin'.

From my personal experience, Majors were groovy. Not too high up to be unapproachable and not too low that they have to prove themselves to everyone below them. Of course, I'd say that most officers were good people and leaders, far outweighing the (notoriously memorable but nevertheless stereotypical) bad ones.

[Daryk]

You're not wrong!  Most people are "good" people, and the "bad" ones are certainly memorable.  But I also have to say, people change.  I ran into one my worst leaders much later in my career, and they were perfectly civil.  I believe "people" are a combination of who they are and their circumstances.  That moves them (and me!) around a bit, depending... 

[Failure16]

Hear, hear. But a lot of people--the uninitiated mostly, I feel--have some warped perception that most officers are intrinsically poor human beings and worse leaders, and all junior officers are actively useless.

That was not my experience at all. I can think of three lieutenants from the 11th ACR alone that were worth their weight in gold to a young E-3/4. And one from the 10th Mountain that managed to outshow his two replacements (who were nice people, but way out of their depth in an infantry platoon). Captains were a mixed bag, but every O-5 and above I dealt with was at least competent and someone worth following around for a bit.

Now, senior enlisted...well, let's just say that being in the service for twenty years doesn't make you tactically or technically proficient, nor a worthwhile person either. But, as you say, there are situational factors at play, and for every bad NCO, there is at least another good one.

Regardless, I cannot countenance a MechWarrior being a "Private" or even a "Sergeant". Their training time alone would preclude that, for the most part--but officers and warrants get a pass on that, because they are cadets until the end of training and enlisted personnel are--wait for it--enlisted and getting time-in-service/grade. Sneaky. And they just have too much responsibility for it to be any other way.

So, they are warrants and officers for me, and it is unlikely canon will change that personal worldview. I grew up with Privates Kaufmann and Wong and their Griffin and Wasp from 2nd Edition, and it irked my then, too!

[Daryk]

Cheers, brother! :)

[drjones]

Regardless, I cannot countenance a MechWarrior being a "Private" or even a "Sergeant". Their training time alone would preclude that, for the most part--but officers and warrants get a pass on that, because they are cadets until the end of training and enlisted personnel are--wait for it--enlisted and getting time-in-service/grade. Sneaky. And they just have too much responsibility for it to be any other way.

Mentioned in passing above, but to me the only way a MechWarrior sergeant seems to make sense is in more of a police force rank system (U.S. style) as I understand it, at least in terms of career progression.

[ANS Kamas P81]

So an optimum organization would have companies led by Captains, with 1st Lieutenants leading lances and 2nd Lieutenants as their lance XO, with two Warrant Officers filling out the rest of each lance.  Since the organization is built around transport requirements, your company Captain is doublehatting as their own lance commander as well...I'm all for the idea of 14 'Mech companies with a CO and XO supernumary to the three lieutenants leading individual lances in the company, but there's no 14 'Mech Union DropShip or 42 'Mech Overlord without modifying things.

Here's a question for officers in 'Mechs - at what rank should an officer be leading from a command vehicle instead of a 'Mech?

[ravensword]

Here's a question for officers in 'Mechs - at what rank should an officer be leading from a command vehicle instead of a 'Mech?

Probably once you get to the battalion level, but BattleTech is very "lead-from-the front," so it might not happen until you get to the regiment level.

[Daryk]

I believe that's close enough for government work... ;)

[Failure16]

In the US Army, at least, battalion commanders have their own AFVs. Well, they did in the 11th ACR (two, actually: a gun truck and a tank or IFV as appropriate to the squadron type).  Now, a lot of times, those tanks will be sitting behind the FEBA, but they are available for the commanders and XOs as needed. But, beyond that, I wouldn't want my brigade--or even battalion--commander riding a tank into contact; they have better things to do, and part of that is not (literally and figuratively) getting in the way of the troopers who are doing the work.*

Another inexcusably strong vote for 14-element companies. Shipping capacity be damned. Everything else in the BTU can be modified at the drop of a hat...

Mentioned in passing above, but to me the only way a MechWarrior sergeant seems to make sense is in more of a police force rank system (U.S. style) as I understand it, at least in terms of career progression.

Fair enough. If LEA rank structures made any sense (or at least the badges associated with the rankings), that is. 

[Daryk]

I'm reminded of the scene in Band of Brothers where the Regimental Commander reminded the Battalion Commander he wasn't supposed to charge out there and lead the Company into battle.  I know that's not historical, but the point stands...

[Failure16]

I'm reminded of the scene in Band of Brothers where the Regimental Commander reminded the Battalion Commander he wasn't supposed to charge out there and lead the Company into battle.  I know that's not historical, but the point stands...

I'll say it does. Historically accurate or not, it is entirely realistic and, more to the point, believable.

There have been times where E-4s, -5s-, and -6s have said much the same thing. Back when I was younger, it would be a cold day in Hell before I let even a 2LT or SFC in front of me. It would have been a personal and professional embarrassment.

There are elements of personal and professional pride, self-preservation, and self-reliance at work here. Please note this is viewed through the lens and from the paradigm of an infantryman.

Besides, ridiculousness about Jaime Wolf aside, who would really want a forty or seventy (!) year-old leading an assault? Nah, leave the killing to the youngsters, and the heavy planning to those who have the experience, schooling, and training to do it properly. There is a reason commanders should stay, at best, one element back from the formation they are leading. It keeps them in the mix without getting bound up in it, lets them feel the pulse of the fight their unit is getting in, and allows them time to make the right decision(s).

Now, as far as 'Mechs (or tanks for that matter), I can see lance leaders leading from the front in certain instances--though I'd rather have a trusted senior/experienced MechWarrior still riding point in just about every situation. I definitely would not want my company commanders literally leading the charge, if for no other reason than they would get shot out of their machine first, all other factors being equal. And what good does that do to the company, battalion, and regimental missions, let alone the eleven other MechWarriors behind him or her?

Battalion commanders should have no place trading shots during a normal operation. Maybe in some esoteric, last-ditch, Hollywoodeqsue scenario (e.g. the ragged remnants of Second Battalion form up to give the DropShips time to lift, say), but certainly not in some deliberate attack or defense; they should be monitoring the fight and winning it through delegation, not misguided personal heroics*.


*See the bombing mission in September 1943 over Stuttgart, where the group's commanding general's decision to circle the target three times let to, shall we say, deletrious results. And this was by a commander, BG Travis--a hell of a combat leader who did fly 35 combat missions as it happened--who was at the head of the pack. The decision, in this case, was not about personal heroics so much as professional requirements foisted on a man to accomplish what the bigger boss (Hap Arnold) wanted: a good result that could be used to foster the then-nascent daylight bombing campaign and to keep the heavy B-17s in Army hand, and in Europe. But the point stands--let the lower ranks do the fighting and the higher-ups figure out how to do it best. If Travis had not been along with the proverbial Devil breathing down his neck behind him, the raid almost certainly would not have been as costly as it was.

[ANS Kamas P81]

To be fair to the youngsters, Battletech lifespans are pretty long compared to nowadays - that 70 year old in the cockpit has been Through Some Shit and has the skills to speak for it.

I agree with the idea of Warrant Officers for the pilots in a lance, it makes more sense than the enlisted corporal driving a Battlemaster for example.  And Warrant Officers have their own progression W-1 through W-4 in the US IIRC, so you can have different folks with different ranks.

So as far as the organization goes, 14 'Mech companies are preferred - and I would assume, a 46 'Mech battalion, with three 14 'Mech companies and a 4 unit command lance - probably three 'Mechs and a Command Truck.  Transportwise...that'd be an Overlord and a Leopard to get enough 'Mech bays, but maybe you can put a recon lance in the Leopard and drop them ahead of your main body of troops.  Same would go for tanks...which is where you're hiding all your enlisted men, with only a single officer leading the platoon.  The infantry would end up the same.

What ranks would a battalion command lance have, based on the above organization?  Obviously a major for the battalion commander, but what would you put as his XO and 3rd 'Mech?

[Daryk]

Probably a more junior Major... :)

[Failure16]

Naw; a senior captain. The Leaguers [at least used to] have the rank of Force Captain, which I have coopted for that Battalion Exec spot.

I am torn--and have been for years--about who gets that fourth machine in a BHQ lance. You have the CO, XO, S3...and someone else. When I was younger--and still bought in to the concept of enlisted MechWarriors however begrudgingly--that spot went to a CSM. But, CSMs (like 1SGs) have other things to do in combat than participate in the front lines, so that went quickly away. Then it became some kind of supernumerary senior lieutenant with duties ranging from special scout, messenger, liaison officer and so on. That is where it has stayed, for me, since all the other common staff positions do not require a line CMF, and they have duties that supersede them being line officers.

Back in the days before I went whole-hog into converting ASF bays into BattleMech cubicles, I indeed used to put a recon lance into a Leopard and have the rest of the troopies ride in an Overlord or triple-Unions. Great minds think alike (or fool seldom differ).

[ANS Kamas P81]

Would a battalion be best led by a command lance of 'Mechs, then, or a command truck in the fourth position?  Or are those rare enough to be regimental command only? 

[nerd]

Would a battalion be best led by a command lance of 'Mechs, then, or a command truck in the fourth position?  Or are those rare enough to be regimental command only?

Depends on the era and how your BattleTech Universe works. Outside of prestige regiments, I don't see BN level commands having Mobile HQ's. The 2nd Sword of Light was mentioned as having the original Daimyo HQ attached to the 2nd Battalion in TRO 3026 Revised.

On the other hand, if you aren't going to have NCO MechWarriors, I'd put the Deputy Operations Officer in as the fourth. That way the BN Co and XO can run around with someone to help them run it all. Another suggestion is the Master at Arms/Weapons and Tactics Instructor. Someone who can keep the command lance alive, provides a staff function, and may be too senior to have a normal role.

[Daryk]

I think it depends on your appetite for custom units.  A Heavy APC makes a perfectly functional command vehicle with half the infantry compartment replaced with Communications Equipment.  That simple of a refit should be ubiquitous.  4 tons (equivalent) of Communications Equipment gets you +1 Initiative AND Satellite Uplinks.  The full Monty 7-ton versions (that give +2 Initiative) should be reserved for Regiments and above.  Heck, you can cram two tons of the stuff into a standard 10-ton APC for just the +1 Initiative.

All that is a long way of saying:
7 tons of Communications Equipment (+2 Initiative, Satellite Uplinks): Definitely Regiment and above
4 tons of Communications Equipment (+1 Initiative, Satellite Uplinks): Definitely Battalion level
3 tons of Communications Equipment (+1 Initiative): Why not Company level?  Definitely Company plus...

[Failure16]

All that is a long way of saying:
7 tons of Communications Equipment (+2 Initiative, Satellite Uplinks): Definitely Regiment and above
4 tons of Communications Equipment (+1 Initiative, Satellite Uplinks): Definitely Battalion level
3 tons of Communications Equipment (+1 Initiative): Why not Company level?  Definitely Company plus...

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

On the other hand, if you aren't going to have NCO MechWarriors, I'd put the Deputy Operations Officer in as the fourth. That way the BN Co and XO can run around with someone to help them run it all. Another suggestion is the Master at Arms/Weapons and Tactics Instructor. Someone who can keep the command lance alive, provides a staff function, and may be too senior to have a normal role.

I dunno. Any O1-3s in my Three Shop will be at the TOC as battle captains, to share the daily/nightly load with the already extant S2 and any other command-free lieutenants who find the need to show their faces in such a place (and more the fools them). Twenty-four-hour ops ain't no joke, as you probably well know. I do like the second option (the old Hans Vogel and Jaime Wolf paradigm). It sounds like the equivalent of a US Army Master Gunner in, say, a Mech Inf (Bradley) outfit.

Would a battalion be best led by a command lance of 'Mechs, then, or a command truck in the fourth position?  Or are those rare enough to be regimental command only? 

I think every level from company up should have some kind "headquarters" vehicle, but that would not detract from the combat machine presence. Still, at a company level, my headquarters section would only have two machines for the CO and XO. If I could get away with it, I'd also include an air-defense 'Mech and IDF ("mortar") 'Mech--pr two of the latter and attach the former from the battalion air-defense lance. Really, I'd have a pair of each, but that is starting to get a bit munchy, even for me. (It might make sense to me, but every other player would throw them into the line as maneuver elements, simply making the company into a short battalion by the end of it all! And that is not my point.)

Eh. Starting to drift pretty far from the original target. Apologies.

[Hellraiser]

Mechwarrior "Academy" graduates start out at E5/Sgt if they didn't qualify for OCS to get O-1 Lt.

They promote up through E-ranks till they get promoted to O-1 from what I recall.

Long Term High E-Grade seems to be rare in the Successor Houses since they lack a lot of grades of SSG/SFC/MSG+

There are exceptions but it seems making O-1 is entirely possible as a MW if given time.

The only exceptions to MW-Sgts minimums are those that end up getting into the military w/o going to an Academy
  (Davion Training Battalions, Family Training/Heritage, or, outstanding performance in another branch)

I don't see WO ranks in mechwarriors much, if at all, in fiction.   But I have seen a couple in the ASF field as the lower ranking of the 2 in a Flight/Pair.

[Daryk]

Hellraiser: That's what I'm arguing against that TPTB seem to have settled on...

F16: I like the way you think too... what I'm hearing you say (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong):

A company command "lance" should have two "command" vehicles (of whatever variety, as long as they have some Communications Equipment), an AA unit, and something that can carry a Thumper (and any of the former could be combined, of course)... :)

[Hellraiser]

I think every level from company up should have some kind "headquarters" vehicle, but that would not detract from the combat machine presence.

Soooo....  A  "Marauder-3C"   (AC2 & 2 Tons of Coms Gear for the AC5)

Command Console BattleMasters for every Heavy Battalion Command Lance.