Author Topic: IS Trooper mechs  (Read 2093 times)

MadCapellan

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #30 on: 01 October 2024, 18:18:47 »
So maybe what the OP is asking is what is a "PURE-Trooper".   None-Multi-Role?

What the OP said was "I've always thought of trooper mech like medium tanks of WW2." That really says multi-role generalist. Again, this "slow trooper" thing doesn't really exist past 3025 and it barely existed then. If we are limiting ourselves to 4/6 all we're really discussing are pocket-Heavy 'Mechs that do the same thing but worse and cheaper.

GoGo Yubari

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #31 on: 02 October 2024, 04:47:04 »
The DC basically has 2 Troopers, the Dragon & the Panther.
Neither is a medium but both are deployed in massive #s across the DCMS & otherwise fit the bill.

Yeah, absolutely this. The DCMS doesn't have a traditional trooper 'Mech, reflecting their dislike of mediums, but they definitely have their own "trooper types" and in the early period those are the Panther and the Dragon (again reflecting their specific preferences). Jenners and Spiders will fill the more typical light 'Mech roles for which the Panther is not really suitable.
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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #32 on: 02 October 2024, 07:42:05 »
Anyone claiming the Orion as the main Marik trooper for the purposes of this thread needs to go read the OP again.  We're specifically looking for medium-weight 'Mechs, and the Orion as much as I adore it certainly does not meet that requirement.

I suppose one of the issues we're all running into here is we need a definition of a "trooper 'Mech."  Are there speed limits?  Weaponry requirements?
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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #33 on: 02 October 2024, 08:06:52 »
Anyone claiming the Orion as the main Marik trooper for the purposes of this thread needs to go read the OP again.  We're specifically looking for medium-weight 'Mechs, and the Orion as much as I adore it certainly does not meet that requirement.

I suppose one of the issues we're all running into here is we need a definition of a "trooper 'Mech."  Are there speed limits?  Weaponry requirements?

I hear ya, the discussion just shifted in the direction of "signature 'mechs" for a while there. Some in the discussion had shifted the conversation toward signature 'mechs of each House as at least one way to identify or classify what "trooper 'mech means. So that's where that came from. But yes otherwise heard and agreed, the OP is looking for a specific weight class and that got lost (even by me) a little there.

We seem to be all over the map in terms of a definition of trooper 'mech. I've heard a lot of people say 4/6 medium. But I have to agree with the point that 4/6s mediums aren't that common among all factions and that in some factions a 5/6 medium is perfectly viable as a trooper 'mech. I do think there are some perfectly good 5/6 mediums that can hold their own. They just may be a little more dependent on making the most out of mobility and/or teamwork to overcome any shortcomings in firepower or armor that they may have.

I do think, weapons wise, they need to have some semi-decent capability to hit at range, especially if they are a 4/6 machine. Which is why I think a lot of us are reluctant to classify the classic Hunchback as a trooper 'mech. That seems to be one point of consensus that I'm seeing.

I find myself increasingly thinking there isn't one good definition of a trooper 'mech, but a few perfectly different perfectly viable concepts, and as long as you play to the strengths of that particular design, and make good decisions on the battlefield, it can probably work.

This isn't a problem unique to this. Over the years I've seen many discussions along the lines of "what's the best qualities in a fire support 'mech?" or "What's the best qualities in an assault 'mech?", or "what are the best qualities of a scout 'mech?" and found a lot less consensus than you'd think. Lot of opinions out there, and they don't all align.

Which is fine, if we agreed on everything, then certain designs would always get used, while others would never get used. That would be an indicator that the game is unbalanced in some ways.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #34 on: 02 October 2024, 08:21:44 »
As to the definition of a "Trooper" mech, my definition would tend to avoid any specifics, such as "4/6 movement" or specific weight classes (obviously, in this thread, we're specifically talking about Mediums, but I think light troopers or assault troopers are entirely possible).

Consider the classic design triangle of Maneuverability - Firepower - Survivability.  I would say a trooper design would be one that performs average in all 3 categories, with a tendency towards prioritizing survivability.  It tends to a balanced design, that can perform at least acceptably in most battlefield roles.

For a medium, you can definitely make trooper designs at 4/6 or 5/8, and even at 6/9 - I would classify the PHX-1K as a trooper, given the extra heat sinks and maxed armor.

Agathos

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #35 on: 02 October 2024, 08:52:18 »
If we are limiting ourselves to 4/6 all we're really discussing are pocket-Heavy 'Mechs that do the same thing but worse and cheaper.

I really thought "pocket-Heavy 'Mechs that do the same thing but worse and cheaper" was the accepted definition of "trooper 'Mechs."

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #36 on: 02 October 2024, 14:39:30 »
I'm finding the idea that a trooper has to be 4/6 kind of silly. There are few Medium 'Mechs at 4/6 in the Succession Wars era, and even fewer in later eras. If it can hold it's own in a mid-range slugging match and be moderately mobile, that's a bonus, not a disqualification.

I definitely see the Wolverine and things like the Steiner large laser Griffin as troopers.

I agree, the LL and extra ML over the AC/5 to me is what makes it more of a trooper than a skirmisher.

I also agree that by 3055, 5/8 becomes the minimum for a trooper.
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Alan Grant

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #37 on: 02 October 2024, 18:03:59 »
I really thought "pocket-Heavy 'Mechs that do the same thing but worse and cheaper" was the accepted definition of "trooper 'Mechs."

LOL, I actually kinda like that as a definition.

MadCapellan

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #38 on: 03 October 2024, 07:26:40 »
Then the best trooper is probably the BJ-3 Blackjack. Durable. Medium range. 2 big guns. Boring.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #39 on: 03 October 2024, 11:13:31 »
The only introtech trooper the FWLM ever had was the Icarus II, but it's pretty much gone by the end of the 1st SW...
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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #40 on: 03 October 2024, 13:14:14 »
Then the best trooper is probably the BJ-3 Blackjack. Durable. Medium range. 2 big guns. Boring.

I don't think you're wrong. Boring is kinda the definition of all the mech described as troopers.

I would also agree that 5/8 is the minimum for post 3055 medium troopers
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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #41 on: 03 October 2024, 21:01:38 »
Just as the Combine ‘medium trooper mech’ is actually a slow hard hitting light (the panther) and a lightweight high speed heavy (the dragon) the Marik ‘medium trooper’ is actually two mechs working together, because the free worlds league is all about teamwork. 

A hunchback and a trebuchet working as a pair IS an extremely capable trooper mech combo when deployed together.  One has the armor and the punch, and the other has the speed and the range.  Just don’t let them get separated and they’re a pretty good combo. They’re both produce me in quantity in the FWL so they do the job.

Or go with 3 Hermes II’s and an Orion for a trooper medium mech lance.  On average, it’s perfectly average for a medium mech lance. 

Post clam invasion (and some even before) nearly all the  ‘medium trooper mechs’ that were only 4/6 movement get upgrades.  I don’t see why you would limit it to 4/6 only when plenty of good troopers go 5/8 or even 6/9. 

The hunchback and the vindicator are two of the exceptions and they are both produced by states that don’t face the clans. 

Church14

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #42 on: 04 October 2024, 11:26:55 »
Thinking about it trooper mech for me is basically:
1) is it less expensive than alternatives
2) is it built to be reliable and use in house parts.
3) can it handle a variety of roles. Not necessarily every role, but at least a few.

4/6 gets the trooper rep because engines are a core cost. But by ilClan, costs are through the roof anyway. Panther works as a trooper cause it’s cheap, can do a fair amount, and is easily manufactured.

Modern FedSuns, I’d call the CN10-D, END-5R, and SHD-6D all AFFS troopers. All use light or standard engines (reliable, old tech), cost Jack for ilClan designs, and can handle a variety of threats. Two do have RE lasers, but those enable being able to fight almost any target

MarauderD

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #43 on: 04 October 2024, 11:59:48 »
Thinking about it trooper mech for me is basically:
1) is it less expensive than alternatives
2) is it built to be reliable and use in house parts.
3) can it handle a variety of roles. Not necessarily every role, but at least a few.

4/6 gets the trooper rep because engines are a core cost. But by ilClan, costs are through the roof anyway. Panther works as a trooper cause it’s cheap, can do a fair amount, and is easily manufactured.

Modern FedSuns, I’d call the CN10-D, END-5R, and SHD-6D all AFFS troopers. All use light or standard engines (reliable, old tech), cost Jack for ilClan designs, and can handle a variety of threats. Two do have RE lasers, but those enable being able to fight almost any target

In 3152, I think those are the AFFS troopers.  I like all of them for particular jobs.  I would say though, that 4/6 or 4/6/4 is pretty slow in 3152.  Makes the Shadow Hawk more appealing to me in the trooper role, because 5/8/5 is no speed demon, but can definitely generate better movement mods in crunch time.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #44 on: 04 October 2024, 17:34:47 »
For me the FWL signature main line combat 'mech has always been the Orion. During the Succession Wars, yes other Successor States had some Orions, but only the FWL was able to manufacture them. So they deployed a lot of them. It's the machine that is front-and-center on the cover of FM: FWL. It's the first machine the FWL thought of to make an Omni. Even in the post-Dark Age eras, you see a lot of Orions in common placements on FWL (or former-FWL faction) RATs. That's in the face of all the new BattleMech designs that have proliferated. It's not hard to conceptualize a lot of typical FWL 'mech companies that have any heavy-class 'mechs at all having at least one Orion.

It just also happens to be famous for a lot of non-FWL famous mechwarriors who have also used it over the centuries. Most notably Kerensky. I think this fact distracts from the fact that the Orions that are left are so concentrated in the FWL.

The Hermes II is definitely a signature FWL design as well, not denying that. But I think it's more famous for being a scout than a combatant anywhere near the main battle line.

The Orion is also one of the reasons Marik still stays around.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #45 on: 04 October 2024, 19:07:52 »
The Orion is also one of the reasons Marik still stays around.

The Orion is more an elite unit:high output mech than an everyday trooper.  Sure it can do trooper jobs brilliantly, but it’s far mor valuable if used as a pocket assault mech, which works especially well for orions in groups, where they can use their overlapping fields of short and long range fire to maximum effect.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #46 on: 05 October 2024, 00:11:03 »
I really thought "pocket-Heavy 'Mechs that do the same thing but worse and cheaper" was the accepted definition of "trooper 'Mechs."
LOL, I actually kinda like that as a definition.
by that definition, the Combine's is totally the DRG-1N Dragon. it's just in the low end of the actual heavy category because of their dislike of actual mediums.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #47 on: 05 October 2024, 11:27:38 »
Srongly disagree on the Dragon being a trooper 'mech.

Now what is a "trooper 'mech" is obviously subjective to one's definition, but to me a trooper 'mech is a 'mech that's main use is tying down heavier opposition while more important things are taken of, or to take care of light flanking forces. a trooper 'mech is a 'mech that you don't feel like it could stand out in a "role with a definite purpose".

To me, the Dragon, espescially in pre-clan invasion, is a pure breed cavalry 'mech, though more in the mold of armoured horse archers (which IS a bit of a waste...until you have to actually charge, then you're happy to have a bit more weight and some survivability). Might be that I'm used to playing games where the 'mechs average weight is somewhere around 50 tons, but if I'm using the dragon to tie down heavier opposition, something wrong happened and now I'll be praying for crits.

The panther is a bit on the light side, but I'd argue it is the premier draconis made trooper 'mech. Does the job to perfection, being able to tie down anything under 70 tons for a while, the PPC is enough of a threat factor that the unit you want to tie down won't simply ignore it and at 35 tons, thats not much tonnage dedicated to giving you elbow room elsewhere.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #48 on: 05 October 2024, 12:05:32 »
The DCMS may use less mediums than the other states in 3025.  However, they still use them, and the 5/8 Wolverine 6K is both trooper and pocket heavy.  It can respond out to 15 hexes, is fully armored for its weight, and can absolutely bulldoze lighter opposition and support heavier units.

GoGo Yubari

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #49 on: 07 October 2024, 08:15:22 »
The DCMS may use less mediums than the other states in 3025.  However, they still use them, and the 5/8 Wolverine 6K is both trooper and pocket heavy.  It can respond out to 15 hexes, is fully armored for its weight, and can absolutely bulldoze lighter opposition and support heavier units.

That's a nice 'Mech too, but they don't actually manufacture that though - at least not (anymore?) in 3025. 5/8 just doesn't really feel like a proper trooper  to me either (again at least not in that era). 
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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #50 on: 07 October 2024, 11:33:22 »
That's a nice 'Mech too, but they don't actually manufacture that though - at least not (anymore?) in 3025. 5/8 just doesn't really feel like a proper trooper  to me either (again at least not in that era).

Norse battlemechs/ victory industries near the fedcom border invented the Wolverine and has been held by the combine since the 4th succession war.  Lithiun weapons on Dieron started making them in 3067.

Various fluff in different places indicate that before that time the combine was importing wolverines from the free world league.  You’ll note that the Wolverine K is basically a Wolverine M with a few tweaks.

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #51 on: 08 October 2024, 00:25:42 »
I've always thought of trooper mech like medium tanks of WW2. Generally 45-50 tons. What do y'all think are troopers?

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I'll disagree.  "Trooper" designs need to fill a couple basic requirements:

1. lots of them, enough you can lose a few and still be viable.
2. doing average damage and able to take average damage while being able to be repaired fairly easily with the equipment you have.

That's not a weight class issue, that's a "product suitable in use" issue.  The 'mechs you list? are for the most part, suitable to the role, but it's not a weight class thing, it's a "we can slot this anywhere and we've got a lot of them" thing.

The classic 55 ton trio actually fills this role better, as everyone (including pirates) has some, and can find parts/ammo/tools and manuals to keep them going, there is, therefore, a deep aftermarket, and while the SHD series (shadowhawk) isn't particularly GOOD at anything specific, it's a durable machine with a forgiving heat-curve in most variants, making it very much the sort of machine you give to mook troopers regardless of House Affiliation.

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GoGo Yubari

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Re: IS Trooper mechs
« Reply #52 on: 08 October 2024, 01:16:48 »
Norse battlemechs/ victory industries near the fedcom border invented the Wolverine and has been held by the combine since the 4th succession war.  Lithiun weapons on Dieron started making them in 3067.

Various fluff in different places indicate that before that time the combine was importing wolverines from the free world league.  You’ll note that the Wolverine K is basically a Wolverine M with a few tweaks.

Ah, Marduk, that's right! The world seems to ping pong between the FS and DC quite a bit and is in Fed hands in '22-'29.

And quoting from Sarna: "As the Norse BattleMech Works was one of the few nearly self-reliant 'Mech factories in the Inner Sphere, it was one of the initial targets of the First Succession War. The Federated Suns reaped the majority of the factory's output with AFFS troops fending off numerous raids, holding the planet almost uninterrupted until the DCMS succeeded in capturing Marduk during the Fourth Succession War."

But the planetary history does mention it being held by the Dracs quite a bit too, so that would make the Wolverine a lot more common. Nice tidbit of deep BT history!
« Last Edit: 08 October 2024, 01:32:22 by GoGo Yubari »
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