Author Topic: Damocles . . .  (Read 22491 times)

Colt Ward

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Damocles . . .
« on: 30 December 2022, 16:43:34 »
Starting in but . . .

 . . . Erik was the one, per sourcebook, who sent the recall for Julian- how does he become a 'hold out' in this book?

 . . . the Swordsworn as a body have not existed since late 3130s or early 3140s.  Aaron Sandoval's troops became at least the 3rd & 4th FedSuns Lancers who were defending Tikonov with him.  Heck, I would have to read the opening of FM3145 again- not available right now- but I want to say they had also constituted another FedSuns Lancers regiment thus accounting for the 'three' MWDA Swordsworn regiments.
Colt Ward
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Adrian Gideon

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #1 on: 30 December 2022, 17:02:49 »
If you want official answers:
Cite the lines in novel that have issues
Cite the sources that they contradict
Post in either Ask the Line Developer or Ask the Writers

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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #2 on: 30 December 2022, 17:27:53 »
Eh, it is written I was just putting it here for conversation but I guess I can grab the bits.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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VhenRa

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #3 on: 31 December 2022, 01:51:44 »
And are we missing something for Alexander Hasek here?

Because it feels like we are missing a chapter or short story or something...

Adrian Gideon

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #4 on: 31 December 2022, 08:29:16 »
Sorry! Discussion here is appropriate. I misunderstood, sorry.
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Marveryn

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #5 on: 31 December 2022, 16:19:20 »
To answer some of the question as far as i understand it.  Erik may had sent for the prince and he was indeed loyal to him but they been butting head on how to proceed with campaign from him focusing on the capellen front instead of focusing more on free new avalon to how quickly and so on.  On top of that the swordworn are disbanded but the survivors remain loyal to Erik and are the core of his unit.  Notice Justin arrive onboard a merchant mech not in the head of a full battlelion of mechs.  This lead me to believe that it the warriors we are speaking about who original were from the republic but are now being replaced by sun citizen. 
For the most part in the story the name of the unit justin seem to be part of is the 1st Guard if am remembering right when they are in the com during battle.   So while they are swordsworn in the past they are currently part of the 1st Davion guards.  (someone correct me if am being fuzzy) 

The book itself is wonder and Big red has already put out a review on his youtube channel.  For me personally the book shows the rise of the davion after being nearly grounded to atom back to respectablity.  (One issue they are going to have in the future is relying too much on mercenaries.  Mercenaries that can be bought for the right price by their enemies if hey are not careful.  Ask Capellen about that problem since it happen to them with the highlanders.) 
Overall the one that came out best in the book was Yori who finally got the thorn pluck while Julian has one driving into him.

CJC070

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #6 on: 31 December 2022, 19:00:20 »
Julian was offering landholds and salvage not money (the FedSuns are broke) this may come into conflict with some nobles but remember groups like the Grey Death Legion and Kell Hounds were given landholds and until the FedCom civil war this was a mutually beneficial arrangement.  There will be a lot of rogue Republic units some may join the FedSuns directly but really in Battletech any “foreign legions” are mercenaries.

Marveryn

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #7 on: 31 December 2022, 19:16:34 »
Julian was offering landholds and salvage not money (the FedSuns are broke) this may come into conflict with some nobles but remember groups like the Grey Death Legion and Kell Hounds were given landholds and until the FedCom civil war this was a mutually beneficial arrangement.  There will be a lot of rogue Republic units some may join the FedSuns directly but really in Battletech any “foreign legions” are mercenaries.

Yes landhold to protect with tax revenue which is what important but some of them may not be fed.  they are a something can be exploited particular when it comes to equipment as  the level of merc may differ.  ELH is one thing but not all mercenary are alike.  its rip for story idea no matter how you look at it.  between nobles within the fed making life miserable as they want the land giving or between possible enemies seeking to weaking the federation.

BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #8 on: 01 January 2023, 07:17:18 »
I think it's prety obvious from the ending that Erik and Julian's conflict pretty clearly is being stoked by Gavin Marik-Davion.

Erik's advisor (whose name escapes me) was always pointing out how Julian's actions could be interpreted in the most cynical/sinister light etc. and we now know he's working for Gavin. The big question to my mind is...
why?

I almost wonder if Gavin hs a long term plan to take the throne for himself.
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Lord Harlock

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #9 on: 01 January 2023, 18:02:26 »
I think it's prety obvious from the ending that Erik and Julian's conflict pretty clearly is being stoked by Gavin Marik-Davion.

Erik's advisor (whose name escapes me) was always pointing out how Julian's actions could be interpreted in the most cynical/sinister light etc. and we now know he's working for Gavin. The big question to my mind is...
why?

I almost wonder if Gavin hs a long term plan to take the throne for himself.

Well it is obvious that the Shadow Prince or Master Fox has had designs on the Suns for awhile, and we finally are starting to see his goal is to protect the Suns on one level. And it obvious that Gavin sitting in the shadows resents that his grandfather Victor left him without the birthright to the Suns. However, the organization that he belongs to might be something else. Gavin appears to be shifted around as the text describes from a cell to stateroom plus the reference to jailers. However, he has some sort of control of other members as well. Plus a unique communication device probably indicates a high level of tech.

Most likely, the organization has some connection to Blakest tech at the least considering the green text device. Could be the Lions?



Overall, I liked the novel since it did what a spine novel was suppose to do. It settled older conflicts, and at the same time, it started to set up new conflicts. The retaking of New Avalon didn’t take the whole novel, and we start to see the Federated Suns recover. While new conflicts and underlying unresolved issues are being set up such as March Lords feeling more independent thanks to the lack of HPG communications and aforementioned conflict between Julian and Eric to create new stories down the line.

Even the Combine considered it a win from Yori’ perspective since she was able to get rid of her master and disloyal unit. Plus, the novel wasn’t about some single lance that took out a whole regiment or something on a single world. That was refreshing.

My biggest complaint is that the Periphery March, June, and House Marsin continue to be ghosts. Plus, there was no real talk about jumpship yards at Delvann that are incredibly close to the former Dragon Tongue.

MarauderD

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #10 on: 01 January 2023, 21:42:18 »
Starting in but . . .

 . . . Erik was the one, per sourcebook, who sent the recall for Julian- how does he become a 'hold out' in this book?

 . . . the Swordsworn as a body have not existed since late 3130s or early 3140s.  Aaron Sandoval's troops became at least the 3rd & 4th FedSuns Lancers who were defending Tikonov with him.  Heck, I would have to read the opening of FM3145 again- not available right now- but I want to say they had also constituted another FedSuns Lancers regiment thus accounting for the 'three' MWDA Swordsworn regiments.

I agree on the Swordsworn.  I can’t quote line and verse, but they don’t exist.  I think this might be a good thing for the editors to take another look at.  That, or I really misunderstood things I’ve read in the past.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #11 on: 02 January 2023, 00:57:40 »
It’s Era Report 3145 opening fiction that is on Tikonov: FM3145 makes it a bit murkier. In the write up for the FedSuns Lancers, it states that the new brigade commander is a former Swordsworn. There is no indication that the Swordsworn became part of the Lancers in FM: 3145. I’d have to dig up Era Report 3145 to see if it says it there or in the Era Digest Dark Age. It is also possible that Torger McGaha or Eric renamed the Lancers to the Swordsworn just because of nostalgia at that point between 3145 to 3151. Who knows? It could also just be a newly raised unit by Sandoval with Swordsworn veterans attached.

Marveryn

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #12 on: 02 January 2023, 01:43:17 »
It’s Era Report 3145 opening fiction that is on Tikonov: FM3145 makes it a bit murkier. In the write up for the FedSuns Lancers, it states that the new brigade commander is a former Swordsworn. There is no indication that the Swordsworn became part of the Lancers in FM: 3145. I’d have to dig up Era Report 3145 to see if it says it there or in the Era Digest Dark Age. It is also possible that Torger McGaha or Eric renamed the Lancers to the Swordsworn just because of nostalgia at that point between 3145 to 3151. Who knows? It could also just be a newly raised unit by Sandoval with Swordsworn veterans attached.
that what i am thinking.  Swordsworn where disbanded then Erik needing units to A) that he can thrust B) have a decent core call in the former swordsworn and reform them.  In the novel it state that units no longer is completely made up of republic troops.  We dont know how much of the original troop where left but enough that they are part of the leadership of the group and they retain elite status.   While a sure they were officially disbanded due to combat loss.  It wouldn't be the first unit to be re raised after a few years of rebuild

BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #13 on: 02 January 2023, 15:51:02 »
here's an idea, maybe "Sword sworn" is the nickname of the 4th fedsuns lancers? there problem solved.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #14 on: 03 January 2023, 13:48:03 »
I almost wonder if Gavin hs a long term plan to take the throne for himself.

The way I read it, there isn't much to wonder about.   >:D

Who knows? It could also just be a newly raised unit by Sandoval with Swordsworn veterans attached.

It isn't the first time an author had brought back a defunct unit. Remember Pardoe and the Falcon Guards...
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #15 on: 03 January 2023, 15:44:34 »
I agree on the Swordsworn.  I can’t quote line and verse, but they don’t exist.  I think this might be a good thing for the editors to take another look at.  That, or I really misunderstood things I’ve read in the past.

It is in the opening of ER3145 where Aaron's 3 Lancers regiments are filled with former Swordsworn- but Eric had his own loyalists in those ranks, and members of the organization had drifted to him after Aaron's death per his bio in that book.  I did not really look at his bio since I knew him from MWDA novels.

BUT . . . the Swordsworn read more as Warrior Cabal 2.0.  Nowhere were they listed as their own unit, instead Eric's Swordsworn were in positions in the Davion Assault Guards that he commanded.

I think it's prety obvious from the ending that Erik and Julian's conflict pretty clearly is being stoked by Gavin Marik-Davion.

Erik's advisor (whose name escapes me) was always pointing out how Julian's actions could be interpreted in the most cynical/sinister light etc. and we now know he's working for Gavin. The big question to my mind is...
why?

I almost wonder if Gavin hs a long term plan to take the throne for himself.

Not my read at all . . . Gavin Marik-Davion is part (or maybe head) of the Cuiratis Organization.  Gavin did give intel to at least Erik, and I think Aaron as well . . . but he was the one at the end of one of the MWDA books sitting in Markeson Pride discussing services with Julian.  And handing him the information Julian did not previously have showing HE was supposed to be Harrison's heir and that Caleb was bonkers.

Gavin had a professed interest in seeing a Davion retain the throne of the FedSuns, AND the FedSuns becoming strong to follow it's ideals.  Nothing he did previously violates those two objectives- he aided the Swordsworn b/c it would return important worlds (like Tikonov) to FedSuns control and would raise more troops for the defense of the realm.  He provided information to the Swordsworn at a cost . . . but implied his assistance to Julian, while it would cost, would not be crazy expensive.

Gavin, the few times we see him, has been pragmatic . . . he has no following in the FedSuns.  Even released from the cell, for however long Julian has detained him, he has not tried to take a more public role.  Gavin might be content to being a power behind the throne.


I will say this novel was a refreshing return to feudal intrigue and some dynastic politics.  I think it is unfortunate that the only mention we got a the Periphery March was a few lines, one of the four 'dukes' they should have been involved . . . and unless I forget my map, THEY should have also been a issue when shooting started with the Taurians.  I was also hoping to get a line or two about the Filtvelt Coalition expeditionary forces.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

five_corparty

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #16 on: 04 January 2023, 11:04:00 »
I will say this novel was a refreshing return to feudal intrigue and some dynastic politics.

Concur, I -love- that about this book.  I think the Author killed it, just absolutely nailed what this book needed to be.

MarauderD

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #17 on: 04 January 2023, 12:42:28 »
I agree on Colt's points about the FedSuns.  There are four Marches now, and I'd like the Periphery March to be involved and have a say in power dynamics and politics.  Also, the Filtvelt Coalition fought against the Combine with a volunteer force.  What happened?  Were they part of the victory too?

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #18 on: 06 January 2023, 08:18:22 »
All this one did was prove to me that if the Federated Suns as a whole wants to go on, the March Lords have gotta go. It's been nothing but them picking wars with other factions while the nation faces crises or just outright treachery for decades. And worst of it all, Alexander was bad at it. And least James Sandoval and George Hasek made some, albeit very temporary, gains during the FedCom Civil War and Jihad respectively.

I can only hope we didn't hear from the current Marsin in the story because he's actually taking care of developing his March, and not that he was beaten to the punch of invading the Concordat by Hasek.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #19 on: 06 January 2023, 10:10:33 »
Yes, but I would have liked to see at least his representative on New Avalon involved in Court.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #20 on: 06 January 2023, 10:16:38 »
All this one did was prove to me that if the Federated Suns as a whole wants to go on, the March Lords have gotta go. It's been nothing but them picking wars with other factions while the nation faces crises or just outright treachery for decades. And worst of it all, Alexander was bad at it. And least James Sandoval and George Hasek made some, albeit very temporary, gains during the FedCom Civil War and Jihad respectively.

I can only hope we didn't hear from the current Marsin in the story because he's actually taking care of developing his March, and not that he was beaten to the punch of invading the Concordat by Hasek.


Hey, maybe if Yvonne and Harrison hadn't been so absolutely worthless as rulers (to the point where Etien or the Twin Tyrants - hell, even Katherine the Usurper - would've been better), there'd be some trust left between the March capitals and New Avalon. But, they weren't, so Julian's stuck with absolute rock-bottom levels of trust.


EDIT - I suppose that's the only real problem I have with Damocles Sanction; it tries really hard to pretend (and it is just pretension) that Caleb is the only reason anything went wrong. Which is, I feel, a disservice to Julian's narrative arcs because it doesn't leave him in any position to actually deal with the internal problems of the Federated Suns, since he doesn't actually know why those problems exist.
« Last Edit: 06 January 2023, 10:34:12 by Templar87 »
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Scrollreader

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #21 on: 06 January 2023, 10:44:42 »
It's pretty impressive that VSD isn't the worst first prince of the modern era (since 3025).  Stiff competition.

Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #22 on: 06 January 2023, 10:59:13 »
It's pretty impressive that VSD isn't the worst first prince of the modern era (since 3025).  Stiff competition.


Honestly, Victor's a pretty solid second place (really, Vic's a lot better than he's usually given credit for; his worst mistake was one a whole lot of other people made - assuming Jackson Davion had a spine), of the ones we can really make a judgement on (Julian simply hasn't been in charge for long enough to make any assessments; and for Caleb, well, for one thing we simply don't know anything about his rule, or at least not in any kind of useable detail (and what information there is, is contradictory), and for another he was functionally locked into having very few options by his predecessors' actions or inaction). Hanse fairly easily takes the top spot in this short list.


Harrison and Yvonne, though - as far as I can tell, each made exactly one good decision (that stuck, anyway) in their reigns, and for the rest of them screwed up basically everything.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #23 on: 06 January 2023, 11:00:36 »
Aw come on, just because King Richard went on a Crusade and left his brother Prince John behind . . . .


Katherine Steiner-Davion circa 3060
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #24 on: 06 January 2023, 16:16:44 »
Victor's problem was FASA seemingly hadn't read the Davion Hosue book, or they'd have realized he had a regent in Ardan Sortek
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #25 on: 06 January 2023, 16:21:41 »
Victor still should have had someone in position to help Katherine down the stairs the moment she mumbled 'Lyran Alliance' in her sleep.

Anyway, a solid challenger from one of the Dukes will be interesting . . . because Alexander would be VERY easy to turn up as a ally, leaving Periphery & Crucis vs Draconis & Capellan . . . unless the Terran March is resurrected for the RAF-in-exile.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

CJC070

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #26 on: 06 January 2023, 21:16:52 »
Aw come on, just because King Richard went on a Crusade and left his brother Prince John behind . . . .

Except John was usurped by the Nobles in the form of the Magna Carter

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #27 on: 06 January 2023, 21:39:00 »
And are we missing something for Alexander Hasek here?

Because it feels like we are missing a chapter or short story or something...

You aren't wrong. I kind of glazed over it when I read past it, assuming that it was something in Shattered Fortress of ilClan I had forgotten about and would circle back around to later. And now it's later and there isn't anything in either. Heck in ilClan he's still missing. So I suspect we'll see something in Dominions Divided.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #28 on: 06 January 2023, 21:54:53 »
It is probably something referenced in Dominions Divided.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #29 on: 07 January 2023, 02:48:32 »
We don't talk about Alex, no, no.

Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #30 on: 07 January 2023, 03:05:11 »
You aren't wrong. I kind of glazed over it when I read past it, assuming that it was something in Shattered Fortress of ilClan I had forgotten about and would circle back around to later. And now it's later and there isn't anything in either. Heck in ilClan he's still missing. So I suspect we'll see something in Dominions Divided.


It does kind of need some filling in, considering what we've got (pre-Damocles Sanction) goes from Alex being "On the run in the Capellan March after the fall of New Syrtis, trying to rally resistance against the Cappies" (FM 3145) to "Just not mentioned at all" (Shattered Fortress) to "Has always been MIA since the invasion of New Syrtis" (ilClan).
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #31 on: 07 January 2023, 17:22:14 »
So one thing that's been discussed in this book is Toranaga's warcrimes, and how they didn't really do a good job selling that he commited them. we're TOLD he commited warcrimes and that if he'd gone to trial a death setence was garenteed, but we're not really shown that, in fact we're told the DC kept a fairly light touch so I dunno it feels like  there's a bit of a "cognative dissonance" in the narrative there.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #32 on: 07 January 2023, 19:40:54 »
Light touch = no looting & pillaging . . .
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #33 on: 07 January 2023, 20:37:46 »
So one thing that's been discussed in this book is Toranaga's warcrimes, and how they didn't really do a good job selling that he commited them. we're TOLD he commited warcrimes and that if he'd gone to trial a death setence was garenteed, but we're not really shown that, in fact we're told the DC kept a fairly light touch so I dunno it feels like  there's a bit of a "cognative dissonance" in the narrative there.

There's a whole lot of that in this book; being told and not shown. That, and the pages upon pages of exposition, made it a bit of a dull read.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #34 on: 08 January 2023, 02:50:38 »
So one thing that's been discussed in this book is Toranaga's warcrimes, and how they didn't really do a good job selling that he commited them. we're TOLD he commited warcrimes and that if he'd gone to trial a death setence was garenteed, but we're not really shown that, in fact we're told the DC kept a fairly light touch so I dunno it feels like  there's a bit of a "cognative dissonance" in the narrative there.
Exhaling on New Avalon is a chemical attack. Davion honor demands a dead warlord. Given the way the DCMS plays there will be something they can pin on Toranaga. But is is hardly going to be Kentares.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #35 on: 08 January 2023, 05:46:38 »
Exhaling on New Avalon is a chemical attack. Davion honor demands a dead warlord. Given the way the DCMS plays there will be something they can pin on Toranaga. But is is hardly going to be Kentares.

There's the execution of the New Avalon Catholic Church pope and cardinals simply for practicing their religion, the thousands of civilians killed after the January 5 protests, and those murdered by the DCMS during the liberation. The Combine might view all of this as collateral damage or justified; the FedSuns holds itself to a higher standard and (right or wrong) judges its enemies by the same criteria.

One interesting little detail: in chapter 14 when Yori is holding court on Luthien there's mention of a Buckminster Military District. From Buckminster's location near the RasDom border it seems like a new Alshain-esque buffer zone has been created. Perhaps Yori might have created a fifth Warlord position for balance of power reasons and/or to expand her power base within the DCMS against Toranaga.
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #36 on: 08 January 2023, 05:53:57 »
Exhaling on New Avalon is a chemical attack. Davion honor demands a dead warlord. Given the way the DCMS plays there will be something they can pin on Toranaga. But is is hardly going to be Kentares.

There is more than enough evidence of warcrimes I imagine. The definition is a bit loose. I'm sure there were civilians killed as well as destroying cultural identities and buildings. I'm fairly sure that there were civilians killed and civilian property that was destroyed during the initial invasion and the retaking of New Avalon at the very least which is a warcrime.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #37 on: 08 January 2023, 09:20:15 »
There's a whole lot of that in this book; being told and not shown. That, and the pages upon pages of exposition, made it a bit of a dull read.
Thank god I'm not the only one who noticed that.

I wasn't a fan of the book. I found it pretty boring with more than its fair share of typos and plotting/pacing problems. I understand why Erik and Julian have their grievances with each other, but I don't feel it when I read the book. It's just been told that it is a concern rather than seen. If I want that, I can watch Star Wars movies again.

RanFelsnerAFFS

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #38 on: 09 January 2023, 06:13:02 »

Not my read at all . . . Gavin Marik-Davion is part (or maybe head) of the Cuiratis Organization.  Gavin did give intel to at least Erik, and I think Aaron as well . . . but he was the one at the end of one of the MWDA books sitting in Markeson Pride discussing services with Julian.  And handing him the information Julian did not previously have showing HE was supposed to be Harrison's heir and that Caleb was bonkers.


Wasn't Gavin part of the Illuminati (slighty recall sth along those lines from the scene on Terra, where he gives Julian the data on Caleb... was it in Sword of Sedition?)

It is fittingly however that Sarna does not have any article on Curaitis (neither the original nor the organization). Very appropriate for an Agent/nebulous secret society ;)

There's a whole lot of that in this book; being told and not shown. That, and the pages upon pages of exposition, made it a bit of a dull read.

Sad but true. Felt like a sourcebook at times.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #39 on: 09 January 2023, 10:12:06 »
Dominions Divided was supposed to have come out by this point which to me makes this like the two novellas w/Shattered Fortress, the one with Tamar Rising, and the Dragoon one with Empire Alone.

Pretty sure Gavin points to Cuiratis . . . and IIRC Sword was his last contact w/ Eric S-G and it was Fortress where he contacted Julian.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #40 on: 11 January 2023, 11:55:59 »
My favorite part of the book is the imposing height of the Taurian ambassador who towered over the local nobles.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #41 on: 11 January 2023, 11:58:28 »
Thank god I'm not the only one who noticed that.

I wasn't a fan of the book. I found it pretty boring with more than its fair share of typos and plotting/pacing problems. I understand why Erik and Julian have their grievances with each other, but I don't feel it when I read the book. It's just been told that it is a concern rather than seen. If I want that, I can watch Star Wars movies again.
I feel the same. There was so much secondhand story that could have been better told as narrative. We're left with no real sense of tension or drama, and instead it reads more like a sourcebook in large parts. There are also the usual number of and editing mistakes which should have been caught and corrected. There is one chapter that mistakenly occurs in 3152 sandwiched in the middle of 3151, then at the end we're on New Avalon with Julian on 30 June, 3152, then he's in the Robinson system on 21 September, then he lands on Robinson on 20 June 3152. Wtf? Also, how did the invasion fleet make landfall on New Avalon in 9 hours? The journey is supposed to take 7.5 days. Pirate point would be the obvious answer, but the chapter heading clearly places the action at the nadir jump point. Maybe I'm missing something. And who the eff is Weiss? This stuff is all throughout the book, and most of it seems to be leftovers from an early draft, but it's easy to spot on a first read through and should be corrected at some point in the editing cycle.

In all, this was a fairly long book that had a lot to accomplish. I'm speculating that the author was under the gun to tell a huge, important story in a single novel where it could have been split into two volumes, which would have allowed him to go into more detail. I like the author and enjoyed his other novels, but this one, to me, felt like it was rushed out the door in order to get it on the release schedule.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #42 on: 12 January 2023, 23:43:49 »
If Erik doesn't want the throne(he says so), why is it a problem for Julian if the Draconis March is more powerful and Erik is more popular?

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #43 on: 13 January 2023, 10:43:54 »
If Erik doesn't want the throne(he says so), why is it a problem for Julian if the Draconis March is more powerful and Erik is more popular?

 . . . because while Eric might not want it, he thinks the person sitting in the throne is not doing the job right and is comparing the results/actions with when he was Regent.

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bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #44 on: 13 January 2023, 11:26:49 »
. . . because while Eric might not want it, he thinks the person sitting in the throne is not doing the job right and is comparing the results/actions with when he was Regent.


Inferiority complex? Is that actually a threat to him or the Suns?

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #45 on: 13 January 2023, 11:29:19 »
How did you get inferiority complex?

No, Erik thinks Julian is not doing the job correctly and thinks he did better when he was Regent.  Therefore, he does want want the Suns to languish under what he thinks is bad leadership merely because it has the last name of Davion- so even though Erik does not want it, he can and will do the job right in his opinion.  So he is going to do it.
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bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #46 on: 13 January 2023, 12:10:46 »
How did you get inferiority complex?

No, Erik thinks Julian is not doing the job correctly and thinks he did better when he was Regent.  Therefore, he does want want the Suns to languish under what he thinks is bad leadership merely because it has the last name of Davion- so even though Erik does not want it, he can and will do the job right in his opinion.  So he is going to do it.

So he does want to be first prince or lord of the Draconis March?

And if he wants to be first prince, why not let him? Julian would probably like to focus on being lord of the crucis march, only.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #47 on: 13 January 2023, 20:40:15 »
So he does want to be first prince or lord of the Draconis March?

And if he wants to be first prince, why not let him? Julian would probably like to focus on being lord of the crucis march, only.
Because that isn't how it works?

It would have been nice to have seen any real examples of Erik's motivations. We certainly got a lot of, "It's what I would do were I in his position," but not a lot of real discussion on the matter. It simply seems they are butting heads because of author fiat rather than anything else.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #48 on: 14 January 2023, 19:26:47 »
  Having just restarted reading the novels after a hiatus The big thing I took away from this book is a dislike for Erik . It feels like he thinks he's on the same lvl as Toranaga and Julian should just be a good little puppet and do as he says . My take away from The final fight on New Avalon when Erik left his area of responsibility to hunt Toranaga instead of allowing Julian to possibly have a chance at the Honor or Glory of dropping him did not exactly cast him a positive light for me . I could respect him having different thoughts on how to proceed but My take is it feels more like he's just doing it to take the contrary point to be at odds with Julian . The Privy Council was dumb for forcing Erik on Julian now they created a situation where this is more then likely going to rock the Fed Suns in ways it can ill afford .

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #49 on: 15 January 2023, 04:41:23 »
  Having just restarted reading the novels after a hiatus The big thing I took away from this book is a dislike for Erik . It feels like he thinks he's on the same lvl as Toranaga and Julian should just be a good little puppet and do as he says . My take away from The final fight on New Avalon when Erik left his area of responsibility to hunt Toranaga instead of allowing Julian to possibly have a chance at the Honor or Glory of dropping him did not exactly cast him a positive light for me . I could respect him having different thoughts on how to proceed but My take is it feels more like he's just doing it to take the contrary point to be at odds with Julian . The Privy Council was dumb for forcing Erik on Julian now they created a situation where this is more then likely going to rock the Fed Suns in ways it can ill afford .


I agree. Erik isn't a good Prince's Champion, he's a horriable one. His literal every thought is about his own glory.

He NEVER thinks of the greater fedsuns except when it just so HAPPENS to benifit him. the guy's utterly unlikable, and I'm calling it here, he's going to end up over reaching, get killed and... Julian'll proably have a long bloody war with someone as a result.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #50 on: 15 January 2023, 16:11:09 »
Well the Suns is almost put back together... time for another civil war.  Just as the Combine & Confederation start getting smarter.  That'll end well.

At least with the Dragoons baiting Aaric, he's probably looking in the other direction instead of jumping in.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #51 on: 15 January 2023, 16:20:10 »
A Prince's Champion would be a good representative to the IlClan, and if Alaric decides he doesn't like Erik Groell and kills him, that would solve the Suns divided leadership quite nicely. Or even better if he gets killed by the Capellans in their inevitable conflict with the Wolves.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #52 on: 15 January 2023, 20:56:54 »
The fact that Erik's reation to Julian asking him at the end to do the tradtional duties of a prince's champion was basicly "****** up, I'm gonna do my duke of robinson thing, but I'll rebel if you strip me of my position of prince's champion" for me was the final straw.

Julian literally asked him to do his job, a job Erik had just been thinking Julian hadn't really allowed him to do (apparently it never occured to Erik that he needed to earn Julian's trust,  having been appointed Champion by Julians batshit insane predecessor) and his reaction was to assume Julian was trying to screw him over.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #53 on: 15 January 2023, 21:05:28 »
Maybe Gavin will fix that little problem for us.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #54 on: 16 January 2023, 06:32:50 »
Maybe Gavin will fix that little problem for us.

Doubtful, he seems to be quietly enchouraging it. we know the principal voice egging Erik to distrust Julian is working for Gavin
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #55 on: 17 January 2023, 20:11:14 »
The fact that Erik's reation to Julian asking him at the end to do the tradtional duties of a prince's champion was basicly "****** up, I'm gonna do my duke of robinson thing, but I'll rebel if you strip me of my position of prince's champion" for me was the final straw.

Julian literally asked him to do his job, a job Erik had just been thinking Julian hadn't really allowed him to do (apparently it never occured to Erik that he needed to earn Julian's trust,  having been appointed Champion by Julians batshit insane predecessor) and his reaction was to assume Julian was trying to screw him over.

Is Erik still Prince's Champion at the end of the novel? I got the impression Erik didn't want it anymore.

Yeah, I felt while there were legit conflicts between Erik and Julian in the novel, the amount of tension still felt contrived. Also, I don't get why Caleb, the Mad Prince was barely mentioned at all in this novel. They're still recovering from his antics, and Erik seems to have escaped any flak from being Caleb's champion. You'd think Julian at least would hold that against Erik.
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Generalripphook

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #56 on: 18 January 2023, 12:53:22 »
For me the Erik-Julian definitely felt contrived, then you started to get information about Gavin's agent feeding that on Eriks side and it explained it a little but more in a handwavy sort of way. Gavin is clearly part of the next big faction reveal hopefully it's not just WOB.2

The Marsh Lords just feel like the Warlords of the Combine with a few extra steps and a lot more lee-way since it seems the First Prince can't just have them murdered. Part of me wonders if this is intentional as you have two very similarly structured houses that hate each other with a passion. Combine those two things and it feels like we have another civil war coming up. Which I am not too worried about I just hope they don't spend so much time on House Davion.

Overall, I did enjoy the book.

BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #57 on: 18 January 2023, 17:30:09 »
local lrods bucking the "king" is part of battletech's flavor and everyhouse has this, well except the cappies, because..... ****** if I know,
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #58 on: 18 January 2023, 17:44:01 »
local lrods bucking the "king" is part of battletech's flavor and everyhouse has this, well except the cappies, because..... ****** if I know,

Because Candace did it successfully (SIC), and even though they were re-absorbed Kai then burned through Capellan forces in the 3080s.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #59 on: 27 January 2023, 17:04:49 »
well except the cappies, because..... ****** if I know,

Because the CapCon stresses loyalty to the State above all else and doesn't let their lords run around doing stupid ****. It's not rocket science.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #60 on: 27 January 2023, 23:24:08 »
We honestly haven't gotten much information about the Cappies in terms of storylines. They also have been the smallest Great House and therefore easier to directly manage. Their leaders also have a history of being absolutely ruthless or brilliant. It is difficult to manage larger states with direct oversight and not instantaneous communications -- the HPG net being down only makes it worse.

Phoenix

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #61 on: 28 January 2023, 12:38:09 »
Can someone explain the situation with D'Aubray near the end of the book? We learn his wife is MIIO, he attacks Trevor, and then shoots his head of security. Is Trevor MIIO too, or someone that was turned by the Combine? I've re-read that section a few times and can't figure it out.

bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #62 on: 28 January 2023, 15:11:37 »
Can someone explain the situation with D'Aubray near the end of the book? We learn his wife is MIIO, he attacks Trevor, and then shoots his head of security. Is Trevor MIIO too, or someone that was turned by the Combine? I've re-read that section a few times and can't figure it out.

Trevor is Combine sympathizer. The Lord wants to use the sympathizer as a double agent for personal benefit, but the head of security could have ruined that.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #63 on: 29 January 2023, 09:07:03 »
Trevor is Combine sympathizer. The Lord wants to use the sympathizer as a double agent for personal benefit, but the head of security could have ruined that.
He a believer  that the best way for two people to keep a secret is that one of them is dead

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #64 on: 29 January 2023, 15:11:02 »
The sense I got from the Erik Sondoval-Groell character is that he's a genuinely competent leader who has demonstrated his worthiness for command and legitimately believes he would better lead and safeguard the Federated Suns that it current First Prince, and you could make an argument in that direction, given Julian's impromptu execution of a prominent POW, and his chosen priorities.  However, while Julian may not do everything as Erik would, his decisions have ultimately moved the Federated Suns in the right direction.  I think that is where Erik's tragic flaw (ambition) is getting in his way, as the only path he really has to the throne on New Avalon is the civil war he claims (in his head) that he wants to avoid, and I don't see any evidence that Julian's leadership is so abysmal, that replacing it with Erik's would be worth the damage of another civil war at this point.  You might suspect Julian of being a 6-7 out of 10 on the leadership skill, where Erik might be an 8-9, but he hasn't done anything to suggest he's actually incompetent.  Erik was certainly willing to suffer Caleb's leadership, when it benefitted his ambitions, and I think that ambition is the driving force behind his decisions. 

That said, there seems to be a profound tendency in the Federated Suns leadership and public, as described in Shattered Fortress and Divided Dominion, interpret Julian's actions in the worst light possible, and while you're never going to satisfy all the people all of the time, this sort of tendency may be getting some help from a directive source.  Erik would be an obvious choice, but that seems inconsistent with his own internal monologue during Damocles Sanction.  Gavin is introduced as a possible player, though promoting conflict between Erik and Julian would seem to be counter to his apparent desire to preserve the Federated Suns, within the constraints of our current knowledge. 

I do think that the Old and Mercenary Nobility will represent a significant point of fracture in the near future.  I'd really like to get some kind of narrative view into Bernard Marsin's plans and thinking, because right now he seems to be acting the role of the perfectly steady retainer in a time of upheaval.  Dominions Divided seems to suggest Alex Hasek has begun to grow up, which is much at odds with his behavior in his final scene of Damocles Sanction, so I'm curious where that will go as well. 
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bobthecoward

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #65 on: 29 January 2023, 15:15:36 »
The sense I got from the Erik Sondoval-Groell character is that he's a genuinely competent leader who has demonstrated his worthiness for command and legitimately believes he would better lead and safeguard the Federated Suns that it current First Prince, and you could make an argument in that direction, given Julian's impromptu execution of a prominent POW, and his chosen priorities.  However, while Julian may not do everything as Erik would, his decisions have ultimately moved the Federated Suns in the right direction.  I think that is where Erik's tragic flaw (ambition) is getting in his way, as the only path he really has to the throne on New Avalon is the civil war he claims (in his head) that he wants to avoid, and I don't see any evidence that Julian's leadership is so abysmal, that replacing it with Erik's would be worth the damage of another civil war at this point.  You might suspect Julian of being a 6-7 out of 10 on the leadership skill, where Erik might be an 8-9, but he hasn't done anything to suggest he's actually incompetent.  Erik was certainly willing to suffer Caleb's leadership, when it benefitted his ambitions, and I think that ambition is the driving force behind his decisions. 

That said, there seems to be a profound tendency in the Federated Suns leadership and public, as described in Shattered Fortress and Divided Dominion, interpret Julian's actions in the worst light possible, and while you're never going to satisfy all the people all of the time, this sort of tendency may be getting some help from a directive source.  Erik would be an obvious choice, but that seems inconsistent with his own internal monologue during Damocles Sanction.  Gavin is introduced as a possible player, though promoting conflict between Erik and Julian would seem to be counter to his apparent desire to preserve the Federated Suns, within the constraints of our current knowledge. 

I do think that the Old and Mercenary Nobility will represent a significant point of fracture in the near future.  I'd really like to get some kind of narrative view into Bernard Marsin's plans and thinking, because right now he seems to be acting the role of the perfectly steady retainer in a time of upheaval.  Dominions Divided seems to suggest Alex Hasek has begun to grow up, which is much at odds with his behavior in his final scene of Damocles Sanction, so I'm curious where that will go as well.

Julian doesn't seem to want to be first prince....I think he should consider letting the Sandovals be first prince for awhile and keep being prince of the Crucis March.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #66 on: 29 January 2023, 15:25:36 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #67 on: 29 January 2023, 20:11:54 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.

I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #68 on: 29 January 2023, 23:46:16 »
The character doesn't seem the sort to run from his responsibilities due to personal preferences.

Putting in the better hands of the Sandovals is fulfilling that duty and responsibility.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #69 on: 30 January 2023, 00:26:57 »
The Sandovals are the second worse family to be on the throne, barely above the Haseks. If any March lord should be taking the throne, it would be Marsin. At least he didn't actively collude in the destruction of the realm with a patricidal rapist.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #70 on: 30 January 2023, 00:52:12 »
At least he didn't actively collude in the destruction of the realm with a patricidal rapist.

While these things are certainly true of Caleb, this kinda makes it seem like Marsin knew these things and still colluded with him with that knowledge.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #71 on: 30 January 2023, 01:09:30 »
There's no evidence Marsin knew any of that, and potentially he didn't even meet Caleb given how isolated the Marsin's are.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #72 on: 30 January 2023, 01:26:09 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

Yeah, one thing they carried over from MWDA.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #73 on: 30 January 2023, 01:28:28 »
There's no evidence Marsin knew any of that, and potentially he didn't even meet Caleb given how isolated the Marsin's are.

Sorry, I misspoke; I meant to refer to Erik, because I don't think Erik knew about either of those things when colluding with Caleb.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #74 on: 30 January 2023, 01:40:06 »
The fact Julian hasn't revealed how Harrison died is bizarre. Whether some people like it or not, Harrison is canonically very popular, and it would be a good way to fully swing support to him.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #75 on: 30 January 2023, 01:52:46 »
Maybe, and I swear I'm not being sarcastic here, because he doesn't have proof (does he?) and doesn't want to risk destabilizing his already-turbulent realm with what would surely be a divisive and incendiary accusation.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #76 on: 30 January 2023, 02:03:09 »
It is also . . . 15 game years ago . . . so many other bad things have happened since then- besides, that information has power IF he decided to go after Caleb.  Caleb is dead . . . and it just opens up questions to Julian of, if you knew that and WHY Caleb was not supposed to assume the throne, why did you wait?

Nothing good could come from revealing his old knowledge.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #77 on: 30 January 2023, 02:03:37 »
Gavin Marik-Davion gave Julian the information in "data crystals" which I assume is verifiable.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #78 on: 30 January 2023, 02:45:55 »
Gavin Marik-Davion gave Julian the information in "data crystals" which I assume is verifiable.


I'd have to reread Fortress Republic, but I don't think that was proof of Caleb murdering Harrison, just of his psychological issues.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #79 on: 30 January 2023, 02:46:24 »
There's really nothing to be gained from him revealing that information now, but why he didn't before if it was verifiable is beyond me. Julian bears a measure of responsibility for the disaster that was Caleb's reign because he didn't speak up when he should have and let a truly unfit man sit on the throne.

I'd have to reread Fortress Republic, but I don't think that was proof of Caleb murdering Harrison, just of his psychological issues.

I think you're right, actually.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #80 on: 30 January 2023, 07:21:02 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

agreed. least we know THIS first prince won't run off to comstar :)
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #81 on: 30 January 2023, 11:42:05 »
There's really nothing to be gained from him revealing that information now, but why he didn't before if it was verifiable is beyond me. Julian bears a measure of responsibility for the disaster that was Caleb's reign because he didn't speak up when he should have and let a truly unfit man sit on the throne.

I'm pretty sure it's also the source of Gavin's antipathy towards Julian, as well. He gave Julian the tools to remove Caleb and Julian failed to use them - that's a massive dereliction of duty, from Gavin's point of view, at least.

Still not sure how we get to present day with Gavin seemingly under custody, though. My assumption is that Gavin arrived on New Avalon with Julian and wasn't simply hanging out in a cell throughout the entire Kuritan occupation.


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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #82 on: 30 January 2023, 12:22:37 »
I'm pretty sure it's also the source of Gavin's antipathy towards Julian, as well. He gave Julian the tools to remove Caleb and Julian failed to use them - that's a massive dereliction of duty, from Gavin's point of view, at least.


That may be his view, and it certainly seems like it, but I would argue that it's the fault of a lot of other people more than Julian. Ultimately, by the time Gavin gives him that information, the only thing Julian could do with it is start a civil war - or, more likely, get himself and the First Guards killed in a brief insurrection - or sit on it; and a civil war is something the Federated Suns couldn't survive, even assuming Julian won.


Tbh, a lot of this just ends up coming back to that, for all his (unearned) good PR, Harrison was just plain a bad ruler, because he really doesn't seem to've done any of the actual work in setting things up so that Julian could be put in place as his heir even if something happened to him.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #83 on: 30 January 2023, 12:38:42 »
Harrison was just plain a bad ruler, because he really doesn't seem to've done any of the actual work in setting things up so that Julian could be put in place as his heir even if something happened to him.

Harrison hadn't even decided on Julian replacing Caleb as his successor until the trip to Terra for Victor's funeral, and Caleb murdered him before he had a chance to make that decision public. Blaming Harrison for that seems a little silly to me.
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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #84 on: 30 January 2023, 13:30:33 »
Harrison hadn't even decided on Julian replacing Caleb as his successor until the trip to Terra for Victor's funeral, and Caleb murdered him before he had a chance to make that decision public. Blaming Harrison for that seems a little silly to me.


Yet, he'd known about Caleb's mental instability for sixteen years at this point (Caleb was diagnosed c. 3118, when he went into AFFS training - Julian remembers meeting Caleb for the first time when he was eleven, so c. 3118, and "shortly before" Caleb went for training, in Sword of Sedition), and that it's not a condition that's going to get better. Harrison needs to have been working to find and prepare an alternate heir from that point, and if he truly did decide on Julian solely at the last minute, effectively - while I admit it's plausible, considering that if we try and synthesize every source together, Harrison seems to've tried quite hard to bury something that would be quite creditable for Julian as an heir to the Lion Throne* - then that is fundamentally irresponsible of him as First Prince.




* of course, the actual reason would be that TRO Dark Age was written twenty years post-Fortress Republic, and thus the action on Taygeta didn't exist when FR was written
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #85 on: 30 January 2023, 21:03:16 »
Yeah, the reason Harrison took Julian in was as a possible heir to replace Caleb.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #86 on: 31 January 2023, 15:23:14 »
I'd even argue that Julian's sense of duty is one of his defining character traits.

Admittedly, I may have been understating the matter.  On the other hand, Toranaga's death might argue against that, given its consequences.  It will require more evidence to decide, I think. 


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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #87 on: 31 January 2023, 17:18:41 »
Harrison knew for years Caleb was not the heir the FedSuns needed. He had plenty of time to shift Caleb into therapy and isolate him in a palace somewhere, while bringing Julian in to learn the ropes, so to speak. Because Harrison didn't do that, Julian started at a disadvantage and he's been playing catch-up since then.

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #88 on: 31 January 2023, 17:34:10 »
Problem with that is Amanda Hasek might have taken exception- he was a Hasek as well, and she was invested in him sitting the throne.  Amanda had already gone off on her own for military adventurism . . . the question is simply, does leaving him in place with the misconception- and toadies/watchers with the misconception- do more harm than good?  Harrison's answer was obviously no . . .
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BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #89 on: 01 February 2023, 01:53:04 »
Problem with that is Amanda Hasek might have taken exception- he was a Hasek as well, and she was invested in him sitting the throne.  Amanda had already gone off on her own for military adventurism . . . the question is simply, does leaving him in place with the misconception- and toadies/watchers with the misconception- do more harm than good?  Harrison's answer was obviously no . . .

On the other hand Amanda had practially raised Julian so her complaints would likely have been minimal
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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #90 on: 01 February 2023, 03:05:13 »
Although waffling indecisively is certainly about Harrison's speed, considering his constant string of bad mistakes due to said vacillation. About the only decisions Harrison ever made that I can think of him sticking to were bad ones (hello continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Kuritan invasions eating most of two PDZs).
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #91 on: 01 February 2023, 04:03:15 »
that raise a question in my mind.  Was julian the only candidate or a possible candidate he had choose from several others.  Perhaps he had someone else in mind that die prior to selecting julian.  Perhaps more then one that die under mysterious circumstances so he had to keep everything on the downlow.  I wouldnt put it past the draconis combine leadership to eliminate certain people if could get someone that would disestrous to the feds.  Heck clearly they had people in harrison court and in turn eyes and ears on what caleb was doing

Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #92 on: 01 February 2023, 04:20:11 »
that raise a question in my mind.  Was julian the only candidate or a possible candidate he had choose from several others.  Perhaps he had someone else in mind that die prior to selecting julian.  Perhaps more then one that die under mysterious circumstances so he had to keep everything on the downlow.  I wouldnt put it past the draconis combine leadership to eliminate certain people if could get someone that would disestrous to the feds.  Heck clearly they had people in harrison court and in turn eyes and ears on what caleb was doing


There's no indication of that that I know of; remember, they knew about Palmyra because, backstabbing crows that they are, the Ravens decided to screw over a reliable ally because YOLO.


I sincerely hope that Sterling McKenna ends up finding out just how well the Davion house atomics work first hand, considering their continuing behaviour.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #93 on: 01 February 2023, 07:17:47 »

There's no indication of that that I know of; remember, they knew about Palmyra because, backstabbing crows that they are, the Ravens decided to screw over a reliable ally because YOLO.


I sincerely hope that Sterling McKenna ends up finding out just how well the Davion house atomics work first hand, considering their continuing behaviour.

I certainly wouldn't weep if the ravens lost their entire warship fleet. and not just because of Palmyra, but because with the state of every other navy in the inner sphere, for balance to be maintained, the Snow Raven navy must die
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #94 on: 01 February 2023, 10:10:38 »
When Caleb started his petty revenge on Julian, Amanda supported his behavior and always read to me like she knew Caleb was getting passed over.  Besides- feudalism! blood ties matter.


In fact, the whole growing up on New Syrtis is 'new' considering Harrison plucked Julian from his family on his home planet.
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Templar87

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #95 on: 01 February 2023, 10:27:20 »
When Caleb started his petty revenge on Julian, Amanda supported his behavior and always read to me like she knew Caleb was getting passed over.  Besides- feudalism! blood ties matter.


In fact, the whole growing up on New Syrtis is 'new' considering Harrison plucked Julian from his family on his home planet.


No, he didn't. Like, the main sources on Julian's childhood/early life are Sword of Sedition and Fortress Republic, which are pretty clear that his biological mother died or otherwise left his life early enough that Julian doesn't seem to have any memories of her; and his father was, if a good parent when he was able to be involved, absent due to work-related reasons for most of it and died when Julian was thirteen. As far as is indicated, Amanda was the one who did most of the raising of him.


Also, Amanda wasn't involved in Caleb's petty moments, because he'd explicitly sent her away from Terra before starting on them. And, since Harrison didn't tell anybody aside from Caleb that he was planning on making Julian his heir, it'd be hard for Amanda to know that.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #96 on: 01 February 2023, 12:49:36 »
Julian has a reflection on the conversation with his father when Harrison either visits him on his homeworld or sends for him to be a 'ward' of Harrison.  Amanda is not in the picture.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #97 on: 04 February 2023, 11:24:54 »
 My pet theory is Gavin is working for Alaric probably in exchange for a major role in the Ilklan Star League . If he were working to protect the Suns he would have been more proactive in curtailing Eric especially considering he controls Eric`s closest companion giving him a complete look into his inner council. But by playing Eric and Julian against each other he can slow down reconstruction efforts and cause discord and possible conflict ,weakening a potential adversary for the Ilklan . Steiner is a dumpster fire , Marik is still trying to get there legs under them as unified nation again .So that leaves Liao and Kurita as the 2 biggest threats to Alaric`s ambitions . as long as The Suns rebuilding is a long process they can be safely ignored for later or possibly invited to join if another Civil War kicks off with an offer of aid . And with Dominion Divided Yori will have her hands full for a bit . I`m Seeing a Daoshen v Alaric slugfest in the future with everyone else busy with there own issues .

BrianDavion

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #98 on: 05 February 2023, 05:24:17 »
My pet theory is Gavin is working for Alaric probably in exchange for a major role in the Ilklan Star League . If he were working to protect the Suns he would have been more proactive in curtailing Eric especially considering he controls Eric`s closest companion giving him a complete look into his inner council. But by playing Eric and Julian against each other he can slow down reconstruction efforts and cause discord and possible conflict ,weakening a potential adversary for the Ilklan . Steiner is a dumpster fire , Marik is still trying to get there legs under them as unified nation again .So that leaves Liao and Kurita as the 2 biggest threats to Alaric`s ambitions . as long as The Suns rebuilding is a long process they can be safely ignored for later or possibly invited to join if another Civil War kicks off with an offer of aid . And with Dominion Divided Yori will have her hands full for a bit . I`m Seeing a Daoshen v Alaric slugfest in the future with everyone else busy with there own issues .


except that we see Gavin's internal monologue is he wants to strengthen the fedsuns.

I've got a few theories...

1: Gavin, much like his great aunt belives the nation will be better off under him, and he'll destroy the nation to ensure he gets the nation if nesscary, Julian and Erik are his greatest compeition so he'll set them against each other in the hopes they destroy each other.

2: Gavin isn't intreasted in Julian job but wants ERIKS job. The position of Prince's Champion has a LOT of power to it, a lot of unoffical "soft power" too. anyone who wants to impliment an agenda in the fedsuns would be VERY well served by having said position. If we simply accept Gavin's words without any catches etc and he genuinly wants whats best for the fedsuns, he may wish that position for himself, and desire to accelerate Erik's fall from grace (because it's coming)

3: Gavin is hoping by manipulating an inevitable conflict he can ensure that it doesn't blow up. and instead simply is kept at a simmer through Julian's reign.
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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #99 on: 08 February 2023, 19:18:56 »
I liked it, all in all.  It certainly had its flaws, it wasn't the most compelling reading ever (or even recently; I really enjoyed Redemption Rites), but all in all I liked it.  I'm not sure about Gavin.  I got the impression that he might be trying to stoke Erik's pride and ambition to fast-track the inevitable confrontation (and then stab him in the back when he overreaches); better to get him to overreach quickly then for the rivalry between Erik and Julian to burn slowly for years or decades.  They should have left Alexander in captivity.  He's more use to the Suns as a drain on Taurian resources.


Biut one thing really bothered me.  This is going to get long, I'll try to remember to TL;DR it at the end.  Three times in the book, the First Prince is described as the "first among equals".  Twice in Julian's mind, once in Gavin's.  One other time Erik demands Julian treat him as "one among equals, no more and no less."  This is simply not the case.  In the Five Princes Era, all five March Lords were Princes, that's why the First Prince is called the *First* Prince, sure.  But Alexander Davion won the Davion Civil War in 2540, abolished two of the Marches, and replaced the heads of the other two, demoting them to Duke in the process.  That was 600 years ago in universe.  Let's look at how the March Lord dynasties got their seats:


Damien Hasek was appointed Duke of New Syrtis by First Prince Paull Davion II in 2829.


Raymond-Roger Marsin was appointed Duke of June and head of the newly-created Periphery March by Regent Yvonne Davion in 3079


House Sandoval is...less clear.  The old House Davion Sourcebook says the Sandovals were Dukes of Robinson by the Davion Civil War, but the definitely weren't March Lords then, the book says they were supporters of the Rostov dynasty, who ruled the Terran March from Robinson (odd that the Rostovs weren't also Dukes of Robinson, but whatever).  Tancredi IV was the capital of the Draconis March at the time, and it had a Prince named Vladimir Kerensky.  No idea if he's related to Aleksandr et al.  He apparently died without issue and was replaced by Alexander Davion's aunt Laura, who sided against her nephew in the DCW and lost.  The first Sandoval we know by name (as far as I could find) is Vasily Sandoval, Duke of Robinson as of 2731.  Not sure when they took over the March, but they have to have been appointed by a Davion First Prince during the Star League era (or immediately before, in the thin slice of time between the end of the DCW and FS joining the SL).
Edit: Handbook: House Davion says that the Sandovals "took control of the Draconis March in the wake of the Davion Civil War." So probably Alexander appointed them circa 2540.

All that to say, the March Lord families were all given their roles (and in two cases their Duchies) by Davion Princes (or a Regent, in Yvonne's case).  The First Prince is not a Primus Inter Pares.  The Prince appoints the March Lords, and can replace them if he or she needs to.  It's really odd to me that all of a sudden the First Prince is thinking of himself an equal of the March Lords.  I mean, it's "no one in power in the 3060s understood how regency or succession works" weird.  Did Julian not learn basic civics in school?  I guess maybe Gavin's been away most of his life, but he should've done some studying.  Erik, I don't know, maybe he was too busy trying to help Aaron foment revolts in a FS ally to bother learning how the government works.
« Last Edit: 08 February 2023, 19:21:53 by Arkansas Warrior »
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

mikecj

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #100 on: 11 February 2023, 12:48:02 »
Eh.. we've seen Davions ignorant of their own laws before... First Princess :P

And if Harrison was weak enough, the Marcher Lords probably got used to pushing the limits of their power.  Heck- look at what they did during the Jihad during the WoB false flag phases...
There are no fish in my pond.
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Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

abou

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Re: Damocles . . .
« Reply #101 on: 11 February 2023, 13:31:15 »
I imagine Julian is struggling with some sort of calculus regarding removing a popular figure like Erik from power. Regardless of the actuality of Erik's abilities and accomplishments, he is very popular. And regardless of Julian's powers, it is not as clear cut as it should be. Although I personally think Julian should have let Alexander spend some more time in a Taurian prison and placed someone else as Champion or Erik's relative as Duchess of Robinson, the writers are trying to make it not so easy a decision.

What is frustrating is that we see little effort to put to the forefront Julian's successes and struggles. He fought his way from the other end of the Inner Sphere to come to the aide of his realm. He negotiated a treaty that allowed the liberation of Robinson, which is something Erik couldn't do despite being Duke of Robinson. He liberated New Syrtis, almost died twice, was severely maimed cheating death, and established a détente with the CapCon. He bided his time for the right opportunity to take New Avalon, whereas Erik wanted to rush in and possibly lose the whole game by going too early. Regardless of people's whinging about Julian's decisions, he has generally been proven right by his successes.

Yes, in the real world, both today and historically, propaganda and public perception can veer wildly off course from reality. That that has happened in BattleTech multiple times shouldn't be a surprise. However, that there was no attempt described in the book to course correct, is baffling. Julian and his team should be doing something to control the narrative. Instead they seem to be ceding ground to Erik, who is legally the junior partner.

It's stuff like that which make the book seem pretty lame. And if we didn't get any real response by Julian other than hand-wringing and a climactic battle that occurred in the first half, it didn't need to be so long.