Billions C-Bill Challenge

[Cannonshop]

What is it?

Build a force of Canon designs, the best force you can build, for under 4 Billion C-bills. (Not including upkeep)

Type?  For today's exercise, we're doing Aerospace forces for Raiding or Defense against raiding.  You have to protect a conventional star system with one fully inhabited planet (IOW inhabited enough to afford an extravagant militia that includes up to four billion C-bills worth of Aerospace), one to three semi-developed moons, and a space station that is vital to that system's role in their House (IOW it's an important NON MILITARY installation).


Timeframe: Between 3025 and 3150.

Tech types available: Anything Canon.

good luck y'all.

[Giovanni Blasini]

What is it?

Build a force of Canon designs, the best force you can build, for under 4 Billion C-bills. (Not including upkeep)

Type?  For today's exercise, we're doing Aerospace forces for Raiding or Defense against raiding.  You have to protect a conventional star system with one fully inhabited planet (IOW inhabited enough to afford an extravagant militia that includes up to four billion C-bills worth of Aerospace), one to three semi-developed moons, and a space station that is vital to that system's role in their House (IOW it's an important NON MILITARY installation).


Timeframe: Between 3025 and 3150.

Tech types available: Anything Canon.

good luck y'all.

So, just to be clear, because I'm a bit confused, it sounds like the 4 billion budget would, in theory, go for both ground forces and space forces, but your example appears to be space forces only.

Would the 4 billion then need to cover all of the unit types that may be used (from infantry all the way up to JumpShip transport) or, in your example, are we just looking at aerospace assets under the assumption that ground forces have a separate 4 billion C-Bill budget?

[Cannonshop]

So, just to be clear, because I'm a bit confused, it sounds like the 4 billion budget would, in theory, go for both ground forces and space forces, but your example appears to be space forces only.

Would the 4 billion then need to cover all of the unit types that may be used (from infantry all the way up to JumpShip transport) or, in your example, are we just looking at aerospace assets under the assumption that ground forces have a separate 4 billion C-Bill budget?

I meant that the 4 billion is JUST for Aerospace forces.  The ground forces budget is separate, and not really accounted for here.

[Daryk]

Ok... next question: what do you mean by "anything canon" tech types?  The "types" is what's throwing me...

[Retry]

I'm guessing that's just equipment that exists in canon, IS tech and Clan tech, no Rotary Gauss Lasers or suchlike.

Where approximately is the "Space Station that is important to the House" located at?  Such a station would be much easier to defend if it's in orbit around the inhabited world as opposed to, say, the Zenith/Nadir jump points.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Ok... next question: what do you mean by "anything canon" tech types?  The "types" is what's throwing me...

I'm guessing that's just equipment that exists in canon, IS tech and Clan tech, no Rotary Gauss Lasers or suchlike.

Where approximately is the "Space Station that is important to the House" located at?  Such a station would be much easier to defend if it's in orbit around the inhabited world as opposed to, say, the Zenith/Nadir jump points.

Earlier he says "canon designs", so I'm leaning towards stuff that's actually listed on the Master Unit List.

[Sir Chaos]

I´m going with the classic "quantity is a quality all of its own", and invest it all in 3025 era ASF.

Roughly equal numbers of ASF of each weight class:
- A mix of Stukas and Rievers at 6-ish million C-Bills each as heavies
- Roughly equal numbers of Lightning, Lucifer and Shilone, averaging at 3-ish million C-Bills each, as mediums
- Sholagars, at 2-ish million C-Bills each, as lights

That should give me approximately 360 fighters of each weight class, or roughly:
- 180 Stukas
- 180 Rievers
- 120 Lightning
- 120 Lucifer
- 120 Shilone
- 360 Sholagar

A total of 60 fighter wings should be plenty to deter pretty much any opponent, even with warships.

If the 4 billion has to cover external ordnance stores, fuel and such, I figure I can slash the above numbers by 10 percent and still have a formidable force.

[Lagrange]

...

A difficulty with the max-ASF approach is that forces are virtually blind.  You need military large craft to get significant detection ranges.  An invading force could block resupply to every off-planet location on the cheap with a few smallcraft.  Then they could mass on each in turn and execute a high speed strike with minimal losses to them and maximal to your force.  Or they could skip the strikes and just leave the outlying stations to die slowly without resupply. 

The planetary force will have many blindspots in coverage due to the size of the planet, so you can imagine an invasion force landing units and advancing overland to take out ASF bases or executing ASF strikes for defeat in detail if ASF bases are dispersed across the planetary surface.

This does bring up a question: what is the dispersion of planetary assets in need of protection?  One giant city?  A continent?  Multiple continents?

[Giovanni Blasini]

OK, I call this one "I Hope You Like Spads".

Starting up, we've got the first of two groups of mobile forces.

Mobile Force A:

• 4 Quetzalcoatl-Scout JumpShips
• 10 SPD-502 Spads per JumpShip
• 2 WSP-100A Wasp LAM Mk. I per JumpShip

Each JumpShip costs around 289.56 million C-Bills, with Spads costing 1.54 million C-Bills each.  The Wasp LAMs are 2.36 million per, after rounding.  The exact amount for the four JumpShips and their attendant fighters/LAMs works out to $1,218,531,120.

Each of these essentially acts as a mobile defense station with attendant fighters doing the work of fighting.  You have four of them, enough to cover your 1-3 inhabited moons with one to spare, and still have good readiness.  That brings us to:

Mobile Force B:

2 Invader (PPC) class JumpShips at $677.13 million each
For each Invader, we have:

• 2 Dragonstar shuttles (2610) at $9,192,200 each
• 2 Mule Pocket WarShip (SL) at $232.5 million each
• 6 SPD-502 Spad ASFs per Mule PWS
• 1 Gaajian System Patrol Boats (2485) at $154.5 million each
• 2 WSP-100B Wasp LAM Mk. I per Gaajian

All together, that works out to about $1.32 billion per fully-kitted JumpShip force, for an exact total of $2,640,953,598 for the whole thing.

These work as a response force, and are your heavy hitters, thanks to the Mules.  The Gaajian also allow them to do boarding and customs work, and you can mix LAMs and Dragonstars between the patrol boats as needed: say, 1 shuttle and one LAM per patrol boat, and the same aboard your Invader if you like.  The Gaajians can do detached duty, inspecting ships at the standard jump points, for example, or at your station, depending on where it is.  You've only got two of these, so keeping up an operational tempo is harder to do than it would be with more ships, but it should still be feasible.  I went with the WSP-100B here because it's an EW bird with Guardian ECM.

Lastly, more static defenses:

54 SPD-502 Spads ($83,061,828 total)
24 WSP-100 Wasp LAM Mk. I at $2,064,140 each ($49,539,360)

These, I figure, are based groundside.  The Wasp LAMs, in this case, are based in their bomb truck configuration, allowing them to either provide air support to ground formations or, if necessary, to carry large missiles (including nukes) to oppose large ships in orbit.  The three wings of Spads allow for flexible placement as well, depending upon the geographic features and population distribution on your planet.

So, in summation, we're looking at:

4 Quetzalcoatl-Scout JumpShips
2 Invader (PPC) JumpShips
4 Mule Pocket WarShips (SL)
2 Gaajian System Patrol Boats (2485)
2 Dragonstar shuttles (2610)
96 SPD-100 Spads
24 WSP-100B Wasp LAMs Mk. I
6 WSP-100A Wasp LAMs Mk. I
4 WSP-100B Wasp LAMs Mk. I

This leaves me with a total of $7.914,094 C-Bills I haven't quite figured out how to spend.  It leaves sufficient budget if you want to swap around LAM designs, but I specifically went with the Wasp LAM Mk. I because it shared a fusion plant with the Spad, and I was trying to keep logistics simpler.

Will this work?  Maybe.  It may not be 60 fighter wings, but I think it has the strategic mobility and flexibility to do the job.

Edit: Y'now, I've got enough cash left over to buy a couple more Wasp LAMs.  Not sure where I'd stick them, but it'd round them up to a full 36 LAMs, enough to count as two wings or one battalion (split up, notably), depending on preference.  Maybe include them as part of the static defenses of your space station since, given their ability to function in space and presence of hand actuators, they may also be able to assist with external repairs.  Not knowing the stats of the space station, though, makes definitively basing any aboard uncertain.[/list]

[Daryk]

I like Spads! :)

[Hellraiser]

I decided to go with something that was in between the "ALL ASF" & the "Several JS" forces above.

5* OG IntroTech Vengeance Class Dropships

200* Thunderbird-D46

The above total is something like 3.3 Bil.

Fill in the rest with .......

15*  Ares Assault Craft   (I can't seem to find exact stats for these via Sarna or MUL, but something w/ Guns & Infantry Space)

##*  Infantry Platoons  (Enough to have 5 floating patrol fleets of defense/interdiction scattered around your system.)



Your not jumping anywhere with this, but, your also not tied down to short range patrols from bases either.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I like Spads! :)

Me too.  For those who don't, though, or want something more generic and less Star League themed could swap the Spads for an equal number of SB-27 Sabres at an additional cost of 6,909,504 C-Bills.  If you standardize on the WSP-100 Wasp LAM Mk.I, you can still round those up to 36 LAMs and have 1,306,710 C-Bills available.

Don't want to fly the Mule Pocket WarShips?  An old Leopard CV is only 168,084,000 C-Bills, which gives you another 64 million you could put towards each assault DropShip, enough to spring for an old Union class instead of the Gaajian class.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I decided to go with something that was in between the "ALL ASF" & the "Several JS" forces above.

5* OG IntroTech Vengeance Class Dropships

200* Thunderbird-D46

The above total is something like 3.3 Bil.

Fill in the rest with .......

15*  Ares Assault Craft   (I can't seem to find exact stats for these via Sarna or MUL, but something w/ Guns & Infantry Space)

##*  Infantry Platoons  (Enough to have 5 floating patrol fleets of defense/interdiction scattered around your system.)



Your not jumping anywhere with this, but, your also not tied down to short range patrols from bases either.

That's not bad.  Depending upon how far apart your planetary/moon/station are, you may not need JumpShips to be able to patrol them.  The biggest problem I would see is at your standard jump points, in that you don't have a quick way to reinforce any of them in the event forces jump in, but depending upon what your expected opposition is, you've got enough forces here that you probably don't need to worry much about that.

[Daryk]

Yeah, JumpShips have use, even in system... ;)

[Hellraiser]

That's not bad.  Depending upon how far apart your planetary/moon/station are, you may not need JumpShips to be able to patrol them.  The biggest problem I would see is at your standard jump points, in that you don't have a quick way to reinforce any of them in the event forces jump in, but depending upon what your expected opposition is, you've got enough forces here that you probably don't need to worry much about that.

I pictured these & "system patrol" units.
They travel from point to point along known shipping lanes acting as a really big interdiction force.
Something that frankly I would normally assign to an Intruder DS or a small group of Shuttles/Lyonesse Escorts, but, in this case, went with a much bigger force that can make even an invasion group take a minute to pause.
And depending on where they come across them it could easily be more than 1 if its at a common location like planetary orbit or Nadir/Zenith etc etc.

[Sir Chaos]

A difficulty with the max-ASF approach is that forces are virtually blind.  You need military large craft to get significant detection ranges.  An invading force could block resupply to every off-planet location on the cheap with a few smallcraft.  Then they could mass on each in turn and execute a high speed strike with minimal losses to them and maximal to your force.  Or they could skip the strikes and just leave the outlying stations to die slowly without resupply. 

The planetary force will have many blindspots in coverage due to the size of the planet, so you can imagine an invasion force landing units and advancing overland to take out ASF bases or executing ASF strikes for defeat in detail if ASF bases are dispersed across the planetary surface.

This does bring up a question: what is the dispersion of planetary assets in need of protection?  One giant city?  A continent?  Multiple continents?

With the all-ASF approach, I have so many ASF that I can afford to split them between multiple locations. Even with several moons and several inhabited continents on the main planet, in the unlikely case that the raiders pop up so close that the defenders cannot mass against them, each location will still be defended by well over a hundred ASF.

[Lagrange]

With the all-ASF approach, I have so many ASF that I can afford to split them between multiple locations. Even with several moons and several inhabited continents on the main planet, in the unlikely case that the raiders pop up so close that the defenders cannot mass against them, each location will still be defended by well over a hundred ASF.

Pilots need to sleep and ASF need maintenance, so how many will be on duty at any given time?  And how will you deal with an invader that just blockades?

[Lagrange]

Wasp LAM Mk. I

These look pretty fierce as they can go 5/8 with up to 5 ADAs.  It would be great to be able to reliably multiply that via HSE.  Delivering 60 capital damage would be fun.

[Lagrange]

Thunderbird-D46

Kind of a star league Hydaspes without the XL engine.  Rugged with lots of long range damage.

[maxcarrion]

Some thinking on this subject (I haven't fully committed to specific designs) - firstly the exact purpose of this force help dictate it, the mention of raiding in the OP seems at odds with the defensive nature of the project but certainly implies an amount of jump capability.  Obviously, warships are off the table due to the huge cost.  Finding prices on dropships seems a challenge, but I have found some numbers so I will just assume they are correct.

I will divide the forces into air commands with each air command receiving a budget and area of responsibility.  I'll not dive too much into details but try to give an indication of doctrine with broad strokes.

1st - 6th fighter commands. 300M each - 1.8B total
The main defensive force will be the 6 fighter commands, 1 stationed at each moon, 1 for the station and the remaining stationed on the main planet.  These will provide dedicated defensive capability for each facility. 
50 Ammon ~ 200M
50 Chaeronea ~100M 
Gives 20 squadrons per command and takes good advantage of clan tech while keeping the price per aircraft low.

Carrier Group 1 & 2  ~ 700M each ~ 1.4B total
Mounted in Carrier Dropships the long range interception carrier groups are built to go and meet the enemy and check the blind spots.  They can also be mounted on jumpships to assist ground forces in Raids.
1 x Miraborg Dropship 500B each
30 ASF totalling around 200M - allowing high end XL engined fighters to engage at locations where fewer craft can be brought to bear.

Support Command ~800M
Invader Jumpship 500M
50x small craft for customs, scouting, passenger/cargo carry e.g. ST-46 shuttles ~200M This would include a number of more specialised designs such as NL-45 gunboats and Ares Mk IX attack craft.
50 Chaeronea fighter escorts ~100M

[Lagrange]

...

XL-less clan fighters seem good, and there's a mix of static and mobile.

There's only 3-5 locations to defend in my understanding, rather than 6 which saves 300M.  On the other hand small craft are typically much more expensive (maybe 10M), and an Invader costs 677M.   

[Lagrange]

I'll have a go.  I'm not particularly familiar with canon designs, so I'm integrating the elements of everyone else's plan that I like as well as adding a few embellishments.

Scout Force, 206M total:
14 Battlesat System Defense Station, 15M each, 206M total.     

We'll mispurpose an SDS as a warning system.  The Battlesat seems to be the cheapest military large craft which provides the capacity to monitor for emergence waves with a multi-AU range.  14 should be enough to keep 1 near every installation in need of defense, 1 near the Zenith and Nadir, and leave several others in various complementary or transit locations.  Taking some additional fuel stores it should be possible to handle half-year missions.  In addition to emergence waves, drive plume detection at fractional-AU distances are a key capability preventing surprise attacks on defenses in most cases.  In many situations the Battlesats will fly ballistic with radar off so as to not give away position while still being able to observe movements and use tight beam communications.  If a Battlesat happens to be able to poke an adversary with an NL55, that's a minor bonus.

Exoplanetary Defense force (EDF 1, EDF 2, EDF 3, EDF 4) 245M per force, 1005M for all EDFs.
21 Riever F-100a, 6M each, 130M total
21 Ammon 2, 4M each, 90M total
1 Zhen Niao, 11M
2 Hellcat II HCT-214, 3M each, 6M total
2 Lancer LX-3, 4M each, 7M total

The goal of the EDF is to make attacking an exoplanetary target (either a moon or a space station) unappealing enough to repel all but a quite determined intruder.  Exobases are inherently vulnerable to high speed engagements, so there's a heavy emphasis on the Riever F-100a which has an AC/20 and 6 SRM-6s can can potentially augment further with 20 hardpoints since you need little thrust to lift off from the moon.   For example, if an opponent attempts a fast high speed engagement (x4 multiplier) AC/20 + 6 SRM-6 + 4 AAA with each Riever can deliver 14k points of damage if everything hits.  In a 0/0 style engagement, the Ammon 2 complement with range and endurance since it armors up to >100 on the nose and uses twin ER PPCs for hole punchers.  The formation is salted with an expensive Zhen Niao smallcraft which can lay 30 mines in advance, extend an ECM bubble over the ASF making them harder to hit (+1 penalty), and provide search-and-rescue post battle.  The Hellcat and Lancer pairs provide further active probe support to cut through enemy ECM and provide some ECM protection even if the Zhen Niao is eliminated.  Since it's off books, we'll also have 3x as many pilots as necessary so they can rotate on-call duties.  Altogether EDFs should be able to cope with a Vengeance scale attack in either HSE or 0/0 intercept style.

Planetary Defense Force (PDF), 795M total
72 Ammon 2, 4M each, 308M total
120 Chaeronea, 2M each, 222M total
120 Chaeronea 2, 2M each, 227M total
9 Chaeronea 4, 2M each, 17M total
9 Issedone C, 2M each, 22M total

The planet is the center of gravity of the system, since if it's taken everything else will eventually be forced to surrender.  Given that, the planetary defense force is heavily emphasized.  Unlike EDF commands, PDF is protected by atmosphere from a high speed engagement.  The default plan is to combat in atmosphere using the extreme lethality of atmospheric operations against invading dropships.  Of course, if an invading force has capital weapons, it's important to have a potent ability to sortie out of the atmosphere.  Altogether, this combination suggest a mix of Ammon 2 (heavy dogfighter), and a horde consisting of Chaeronea (11/17 ERPPC) and Chaeronea 2 (11/17 4x ERML) to heavily contest airspace.  There will be multiple fallback basing locations and staff for extended use.  Exo-atmosphere missions may augment with 144 ASMs and 240 AAAs on external hardpoints.  The Chaeronea 4 and Issedone C provide active probe and ECM support to ASF formations.

Counter-Strike Force (CSF) 1971M total
Merchant Jumpship (Passenger variety) 535M
2 Miraborgs 493M each, 985M total
2 Battle Taxi NL-42, 15M each, 29M total
66 Riever F-100a, 6M each, 409M total
2 Hellcat II HCT-214, 3M each, 6M total
2 Lancer LX-3, 4M each, 7M total

The CSF is the mobile element.  It's based at a planetary zenith or nadir within light-hours of the planetary system.  Think of Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto which are external to Sol's counterjump bubble and hence can generate their own zenith or nadir with the exact choice varying over time.  There are roughly three modes of use: counterjump,  high speed engagement, and 0/0 disable.  In general, the goal is to _not_ risk the integrity of the CSF.  Merely existing is sufficient to deeply complicate an invasion since they must defend logistics and avoid splitting forces or accept potentially serious and unpredictable losses. 

A counterjump mission is generated when an opposing force jumps in system and sends their dropships to attack.  Once those forces are committed, the CSF jumps to the destination of the jumpship, eliminates resistance, boards the jumpships to take control, and then uses the station keeping drives of jumpships to exit easy discovery. 

An HSE mission is generated when an opposing force has an observed and predictable path, for example aiming for a 0/0 intercept of the planet at 1g.  In an HSE mission, the Miraborgs accelerate to intercept.  This is almost always possible because the Miraborgs move 5/8, and interception does not require slowing down---you can just keep on piling on delta-V.  The Miraborgs are loaded to the gills with Rievers, including a few in cargo.  A bit before intercept the Rievers are launched, and a few in cargo are transported out of cargo, readied, and launched, the Miraborg accelerates orthogonally to avoid detection, the HSE happens with surprise, and then the Miraborg reverses thrust and comes back to pick up the survivors.  In a variation of this, one Miraborg harasses and incidentally closely tracks the invading force while the other sets up high speed passes.

0/0 disable happens at low closing velocities.  Against a superior invading force this would typically happen if the force is split into pieces, some of which are small enough the Miraborg(s) could cope with them.  Here again we're relying on a 5/8 speed being sufficient to typically enable the Miraborg to choose whether to engage.  If local forces are advantageous, the Miraborg will launch fighters which will function with a primary goal of crippling an opposed dropship to take it as a prize later.  (If the goal is destruction instead, there is little reason to avoid an HSE mission.)

Cached supplies: 50M.
Because resupply in a warzone is difficult, many secret caches will be setup.  These can be as simple as some containers strapped together in a known orbit, be associated with bases, or whatever.  The includes plentiful quantities of armor, munitions, and other expendables. 

Missing things in canon
-- Purpose-built Scouting systems.  They can be done an order of magnitude cheaper and without an absurdly large crew.
-- Clan 5/8 non-XL heavy fighter with double heat sinks.  The Ammon 2 is reasonably beefy, but you could easily do better with a 100 tonner using a Hydaspes-like loadout. This would matter for the CSF. 
-- The Miraborgs are solid carriers, but something twice the size would be great.  I also like 7/11 carriers personally since they make it _sure_ that you can disengage.

[Retry]

I thought you needed 5 tons of a bomb bay just to mount 1 AA Arrow.

[Lagrange]

I thought you needed 5 tons of a bomb bay just to mount 1 AA Arrow.

IO page 110 says: "The bombs and other external ordinance usable within a LAM bomb bay are listed in the LAM Bomb Bay Ordnance Table.." and the table on page 112 lists AAA.  That seems to imply the ability to place an AAA into a 1 ton LAM bomb bay?  At least, I've seen it discussed this way previously.  Is there something to the contrary?

I agree that it's surprising, but LAM bomb bays differ from the internal bomb bay quirk in another way as well---there is no limit other than the total on how many bombs you can use.

[Giovanni Blasini]

IO page 110 says: "The bombs and other external ordinance usable within a LAM bomb bay are listed in the LAM Bomb Bay Ordnance Table.." and the table on page 112 lists AAA.  That seems to imply the ability to place an AAA into a 1 ton LAM bomb bay?  At least, I've seen it discussed this way previously.  Is there something to the contrary?

I agree that it's surprising, but LAM bomb bays differ from the internal bomb bay quirk in another way as well---there is no limit other than the total on how many bombs you can use.

Found one citation here:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1980.msg47852#msg47852

All bombs weigh 1/2 1 ton. (External Fuel tanks weigh 1 ton and carry a half ton of fuel)

Some bombs though take up more room so you have to keep that in mind. If you have a LAM with a one ton bomb bay, it can only hold a bomb/missile of up to two slots in size.

So there's your limitation: you not only need to look at weight, but number of slots a bomb or missile takes up.

[Lagrange]

Found one citation here:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1980.msg47852#msg47852

So there's your limitation: you not only need to look at weight, but number of slots a bomb or missile takes up.

Interesting, thanks. 

Somewhat confusing though: where does "bomb of up to two slots in size" come from?

[Lagrange]

FYI, I updated to use the Riever F100a instead of the Wasp LAM.  There are some reasonable alternatives, but I find it interesting that an introtech ASF is an efficient force projection mechanism for HSEs.

[assaultdoor]

Interesting, thanks. 

Somewhat confusing though: where does "bomb of up to two slots in size" come from?

That may be related to the newer SO errata about bombs as cargo, where each bomb counts as one ton per slot rather than simply one ton per bomb. Or it may not be. Either way, the 2011 ruling also said that a LAM's bomb bays aren't magical containers, so it seems suspicious that they should magically work better than other forms of cargo space designed to hold bombs.

[maxcarrion]

...

I think there's some great points here, I am not all that up on detection ranges and HSE so didn't really include them in my thinking.  What do you think of the Xerxes in stead of the Reiver?  Possibly mix in some Xerxes 2.

I think you're missing a small craft group for search and rescue, towing, and ferrying supplies/personnel about, even if it's just a handful of basic shuttles.

Would love to see a tiny station with some small craft and asf bays where squadrons refuel and rearm but they just don't exist in canon.  More useful than an orbital weapon platform.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I misread

[Daryk]

*snip*
Would love to see a tiny station with some small craft and asf bays where squadrons refuel and rearm but they just don't exist in canon.  More useful than an orbital weapon platform.

You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)

[Daryk]

Since we're down in fan rules, I feel safe in saying that a 3,000-ton "Lily Pad" station is possible with 2 Small Craft (probably carrying SAR birds) and 6 ASF cubicles (usually empty for recovery/refueling ops) for under 10,000,000 C-Bills.  You could probably cut it down to 2,000 tons, but you wouldn't have much room for recovered birds, or gas for them.  Unfortunately, as a station, you're stuck with a minimum of 45 crew.

[maxcarrion]

You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)

Habitats and factories all have loads of things that you don't want to make military targets out of.  Thousands of civilians should not be living on your barely armoured fighter base packed full of rocket fuel.

Quite tempted to start dipping into custom designs to see how we can improve on the canon choices, larger drop ships, better stations, clan HSE ASF etc.  obviously going outside of the original challenge

[Daryk]

The description of "Small Habitat" goes all the way down to 2,000 tons, so it's not necessarily thousands of civilians.

And I was able to shave the Lily Pad down to a "Mini Pad" at 2,000 tons for under 7,000,000 C-Bills.  Of course, that means no ASF cubicles, and leaving one of the Small Craft cubicles empty for recovery operations (followed by stuffing the derelict into cargo).

[Daryk]

I posted the "Lily Pad" design here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84547.0

[Lagrange]

What do you think of the Xerxes in stead of the Reiver?  Possibly mix in some Xerxes 2.

The advantage of the Xerxes is that it can deliver more heavy hole-punching hits and it's a bit faster.  That's 4x 15 point hits which magnify to up to 60 each in an HSE.

The disadvantage is almost everything else.  It costs a bit more, has much less armor, the Riever can threshold even higher with its hole puncher, and the Riever does more damage over all.  Furthermore, if the Xerxes tries to use it's extra thrust it risks structural damage.  Overall, the Xerxes seems to be a glass cannon design.

I think you're missing a small craft group for search and rescue, towing, and ferrying supplies/personnel about, even if it's just a handful of basic shuttles.

For ferrying of supplies/personnel, I was assuming that the military can contract on commercial transit to moons and the civilian station.  That leaves CSF needing supply, which can be accomplished via detaching one of the Miraborgs now and then (they have 1k tons of cargo).  You might be concerned about the Battlesats, but we have extra and the stationary drive is adequate to get them from anywhere to anywhere in about a 1 month time frame.  Overall, figure a worst case of 1 month to deploy, 4 months on duty, and 1 month to return.   They have adequate cargo capacity to go on  longer so missions are really just limited by zero-g tolerance.  You might also be concerned that ferrying of supplies by commercial transit during wartime doesn't work.  But I don't think any ferrying of supplies really works against a good adversary---strangling logistics is a standard basic move if available.  Thus, the emphasis on an expendables reserve.

That leaves rescue and towing.   I haven't been able to find any canon smallcraft which can tow.  Looking into the rescue side, the Zhen Niao looks nice.  The AP helps with SAR, the Space Mine Dispenser might be handy if you know where the enemy is coming from sufficiently in advance, and it's fast enough to travel with the Rievers and provide ECM protection vs. other ASF: a +1 penalty to hit imposed on the enemy is probably worth a 4% reduction in firepower.  I added this to the EDFs.

This also reminded me that I forgot to salt the ASFs with ECM and AP units.  ECM units can impose a +1 penalty to hit to all nearby ASF (and the Zhen Niao can extend that to an additional +1).  APs can cut through enemy ECM.  Ideally, you just do a field refit of your common design with an ECM or AP, but that's not canon.  Looking through things, it looks like Hellcat II HCT-214 for APs and Lancet LX-3 for ECM is decent design for the space formations.  For planetary defense Chaeronea 4 and Issedone C are even cheaper alternatives.  Added in and the post is tweaked.

Would love to see a tiny station with some small craft and asf bays where squadrons refuel and rearm but they just don't exist in canon.  More useful than an orbital weapon platform.

Yeah, agreed.  I'm assuming that vacuum-safe cargo can be externalized in space, so you don't need to much store.

You're pretty much exactly describing a "Small Habitat" or "Small Unpressurized Yard"... :)

These are super expensive.  I'd love to invest in something like 100 Skywatch satellites instead of the battlesats.  That would give super-comprehensive coverage for a bit loss cost overall.

[Lagrange]

I posted the "Lily Pad" design here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84547.0

I'm not quite seeing the use case for these.  The forces I was laying out have a base already (moon/satellite/planet of responsibility) except for the CSF, and the CSF is by design fairly maneuverable.

Maybe it could be used more as a slow space truck?

[Daryk]

They're a mobile FARP for up to a squadron of ASF, and could refuel any accompanying Small Craft at the same time.  Basically, they're your "bases between bases"... :)

[maxcarrion]

I'm not quite seeing the use case for these.  The forces I was laying out have a base already (moon/satellite/planet of responsibility) except for the CSF, and the CSF is by design fairly maneuverable.

Maybe it could be used more as a slow space truck?

The use cases include but are not limited to
 - all the things the battlesats do except shoot their NL
 - provide a convenient landing pad for fighters to refuel/rearm for example
        - Ammon squadron 7 have fired off all their external ordinance in a protracted dogfight rather than spending 2 hours returning to base they quickly set down at a lily pad, re-arm and re-engage faster.
       - Sending your dirtside heavy fighters to engage away from planet.thwy are able to lift more easily without external ordinance and arm up at the orbital lilypad.
  - SAR and emergency platform, for example to recover fighters that were in operable following an HSE
  - providing a platform away from strategic targtes, for example to detain a suspicious drop ship that's suspected of carrying nukes.

[Daryk]

Plus, they only cost around what a Heavy ASF does... :)

[Lagrange]

They're a mobile FARP for up to a squadron of ASF, and could refuel any accompanying Small Craft at the same time.  Basically, they're your "bases between bases"... :)

The intuition of the in-between base doesn't work well in space because the fuel & time required multiplies.  For example, if you have point A and point C with point B in the middle, then dong A->B->C requires sqrt(2) more time as long as the fill up at point B takes zero time.   

The other tricky thing about this is that it creates a target.  This leads to the question: do you defend it?  If you defend it, that requires significant resources (see the EDFs).  You could avoid by using secrecy (which the battlesats do), but that's somewhat risky, and this one now has more at risk.

The use cases include but are not limited to
 - all the things the battlesats do except shoot their NL
 - provide a convenient landing pad for fighters to refuel/rearm for example
        - Ammon squadron 7 have fired off all their external ordinance in a protracted dogfight rather than spending 2 hours returning to base they quickly set down at a lily pad, re-arm and re-engage faster.
       - Sending your dirtside heavy fighters to engage away from planet.thwy are able to lift more easily without external ordinance and arm up at the orbital lilypad.
  - SAR and emergency platform, for example to recover fighters that were in operable following an HSE
  - providing a platform away from strategic targtes, for example to detain a suspicious drop ship that's suspected of carrying nukes.

The point of the battlesats is "eyes on the sky".  It's modestly better than the battlesat (cheaper, with a better secondary mission), but still nowhere near as good as those Skywatch satellites which are an order of magnitude cheaper, require zero crew, and have super-elite detection checks.   Given that, it seems we should satisfy the primary mission with the Skywatch satellites and then consider whether or not secondary missions can be promoted to primary.

W.r.t. Refuel/Rearm, there's some point to this.  There would be much more point if we were using the Rievers in the PDF, since they can't reach space with a full bomb load.  The Ammon's are merely reduced to a 3/5 with full hardpoints and the Chaeronea's are reduced to 10/15.  The fuel cost of reaching orbit is not to significant (fraction of a ton) although obviously topping off could be helpful.   Overall, it seems like a modest value?  Alternatively, you could base out of something like this to reduce exo-atmospheric reaction times, which may be a greater value than topping up fuel.

SAR: Smallcraft are better and comparably priced.

Emergency platform: You probably need a tug to handle this first, and on moons or near civilian stations that's probably all you need.  Can a tug be made which can grapple a damaged ASF and land on a planet? ... it looks like "yes"---you can make a 3/5 200 ton smallcraft which can dock with a damaged ASF and carry the ASF through the atmosphere to a planetary base.  This would take longer than carrying it to satellite, but you would gain the protection of the atmosphere.

Detaining platform: This is useful, but typically not a military function.  Leaving customs stuff to the law enforcement budget seems reasonable as it leaves the military with a clearer mission: break stuff as necessary to protect the system. 

Overall, it seems like the refuel/rearm choice is the most plausible.  It's not clear this is the right scale there though.  There are _many_ planetary ASF, so handling 6 is pretty piecemeal, and the startup cost on a station is pretty substantial.  It looks you can double the price and handle about 5x as many ASF/smallcraft with a somewhat larger station.  That's a more appreciable fraction of the planetary ASF.  A significant difficulty with the adding the station near a planet is that it becomes a valid HSE target.  As long as it's kept low cost/value that's probably ok, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Daryk]

A Lily Pad multiplies the range of your SAR assets, since it can carry two, and has more room aboard for rescued personnel (plus the MASH core module for any serious medical requirements).

[Lagrange]

A Lily Pad multiplies the range of your SAR assets, since it can carry two, and has more room aboard for rescued personnel (plus the MASH core module for any serious medical requirements).

I'm vague on whether SAR assets benefit much from a range multiplier.  Most combat probably takes place near a location someone wants to defend, so range to that location is pretty small compared to the burn-days a smallcraft typically can manage.  The few that don't (like an HSE surprise attack on an invading force mid-flight) have a very high delta-V compared to the system, and so any SAR assets at rest at the moment of the engagements will take many days to reach zero relative velocity.  In that time, pretty much anyone in need of rescue will run out of air, so this becomes more of a "Search and Salvage" mission.  Also, I don't think a Lily pad could be useful in this situation, since it would need to have a high velocity relative to the system to dock with and refuel a smallcraft in transit in a manner which assisted the SAS mission.

A MASH is good, but you can also have a MASH on a dedicated SAR smallcraft.

It might seem like I'm dumping on the Lily Pad.  Apologies if so---I'm just playing with the idea to see what missions most benefit from it.  At the moment, I'm finding refuel/rearm most compelling.

[maxcarrion]

I'm vague on whether SAR assets benefit much from a range multiplier.  Most combat probably takes place near a location someone wants to defend, so range to that location is pretty small compared to the burn-days a smallcraft typically can manage.  The few that don't (like an HSE surprise attack on an invading force mid-flight) have a very high delta-V compared to the system, and so any SAR assets at rest at the moment of the engagements will take many days to reach zero relative velocity.  In that time, pretty much anyone in need of rescue will run out of air, so this becomes more of a "Search and Salvage" mission.  Also, I don't think a Lily pad could be useful in this situation, since it would need to have a high velocity relative to the system to dock with and refuel a smallcraft in transit in a manner which assisted the SAS mission.

A MASH is good, but you can also have a MASH on a dedicated SAR smallcraft.

It might seem like I'm dumping on the Lily Pad.  Apologies if so---I'm just playing with the idea to see what missions most benefit from it.  At the moment, I'm finding refuel/rearm most compelling.

I think you've argued the point eloquently and I agree with you pretty much throughout.  I think you'd want to settle the question of where customs and security sit as some doctrines would see it asilitary and some civilian.  But tbh if we're building a customs station we should build a larger quarantine centre with quarters and cargo space or just use a small craft as a mobile customs cutter and anchor off.

I am not familiar with Skywatch satellites, I've never been that heavy into the blackwater rules,.but if they do the job better for less than, and don't require crew than, yeah, lets use those when we are able to shed canon constraints.

I think I'd be somewhat inclined to still have 1 stop off station around the main planet but make it larger as it wouldn't be much more expensive to up a lilypad to say 24 or even more ASF bays without changing much else.  Some of the planets fighter command could even be stationed there allowing several squadrons to be deployed directly to orbit.

Attaching a squadron of small craft to each base should cover most other mission profiles, whether these are custom SAR birds or shuttles with a paramedic and medical supplies on board I'm not sure how much value a full MASH on a shuttle is when you are on a small craft in a friendly system.

[Daryk]

Lagrange: No worries!  As maxcarrion said, you've been eloquent in your arguments, and kept them fully focused on the mission set.  Thank you!

maxcarrion: The Hong Lung (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hong_Lung) is probably a better starting point for what you're talking about.