"Fa Sure" Battle Armor?

[Grizzly]

I see these in the MUL. Sarna says very little about them. Does anyone know anything about them?

[Middcore]

It's an IS Standard suit that uses a mine dispenser instead of the usual modular mount, produced by the Duchy of Andurien. The mine dispenser was originally created for the Capellan Fa Shih battle armor. I would guess that "Fa Sure" is a slang term adopted because it's like a worse version of the Fa Shih.

[Hellraiser]

I had a similar question about the IS (Magnetic) model actually.

I saw these in the MUL now but Sarna doesn't fluff them out to describe the actual stats.

What kind of Weapon does the Fa Sure use?

What kind of Weapon does the Magnetic use?

Are there Armor level/type changes?

[Gorgon]

You can find the Magnetic in Rec Guide 32. Armor level is the same, but it's faster and armed with a fixed MG. There's not much on it regarding fluff, just that it is produced by several companies across the IS and Periphery and has become a common design.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's an IS Standard suit that uses a mine dispenser instead of the usual modular mount, produced by the Duchy of Andurien. The mine dispenser was originally created for the Capellan Fa Shih battle armor. I would guess that "Fa Sure" is a slang term adopted because it's like a worse version of the Fa Shih.

Also because there's an oddly high concentration of them in the San Fernando Valley.

[Hellraiser]

but it's faster and armed with a fixed MG.

Faster?  How so?

[Minemech]

 The Fa Sure does fine. It just suffers from the fact that IS Standard is outdated, as is the Fa Shih. The Fa Shih's notorious armor issue hurts a bit more as it does not even have a special compound.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

As a funny happenstance, they're both pronounced about the same, so the difference would be largely only in spelling.

(Mandarin has this thing called "empty rime" where a vowel just extends the consonant sound instead of being, well, a vowel, and sh is one of the initials that has empty rime with the final i. Though, technically, if the suit is actually a form of "methods master/方士", i.e. a practitioner of Daoism or some other specialist, it would be Fang Shi(h).)

[Grizzly]

As a funny happenstance, they're both pronounced about the same, so the difference would be largely only in spelling.

(Mandarin has this thing called "empty rime" where a vowel just extends the consonant sound instead of being, well, a vowel, and sh is one of the initials that has empty rime with the final i. Though, technically, if the suit is actually a form of "methods master/方士", i.e. a practitioner of Daoism or some other specialist, it would be Fang Shi(h).)

Oh that's fun to know, thanks!

[Grizzly]

Since it's a standard IS suit with mine dispensers, would you guys use a standard mini or a fa Shih mini? I'm torn.

[Minemech]

Since it's a standard IS suit with mine dispensers, would you guys use a standard mini or a fa Shih mini? I'm torn.

IS Standard. Think of the Fa Shih as a rip off that had an innovative idea but was technically inferior.

[Colt Ward]

IS Standard. Think of the Fa Shih as a rip off that had an innovative idea but was technically inferior.

Get a IS Std BA, get those plastic stemmed q-tips, cut appropriate length tubing, seal tubing, glue to back of IS Std.

Fa Sure

[Minemech]

Get a IS Std BA, get those plastic stemmed q-tips, cut appropriate length tubing, seal tubing, glue to back of IS Std.

Fa Sure

And you will never have compunctions over fielding them in conventional units, militia, private security or for the personal units of nobility. All should be able to handle them. Yeah, IS standard BA is the garbagecan suit, but it can take a modestly harder hit.

[MadCapellan]

IS Standard. Think of the Fa Shih as a rip off that had an innovative idea but was technically inferior.

*laughs in universally mechanized battle armor force*

[Minemech]

*laughs in universally mechanized battle armor force*

You Capellans and your Mag Clamps, and LRRs (Admittingly a retroactive addition, but was needed).

[MadCapellan]

I'm just saying, all your battle armor could have 20 armor and fire 7 SRMs a turn & it doesn't mean anything if you can't get them where you need them. the Fa Shih having mag clamps made it de-facto the best Inner Sphere battle armor for decades after its introduction simply because it was the only one you could use any vehicle or 'Mech in your force to get where it needed to go. The ability to guard multiple hexes of terrain thanks to the mine-dispensers was just gravy. People looking down on the Fa Shih simply because it had 2 less armor or doesn't have a one-shot missile launcher always struck me as kind of missing the point. battle armor exist for area denial. The Fa Shih gets to the terrain you want to deny the enemy and makes occupying it costly. Even now, few others are as flexible.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

*laughs in universally mechanized battle armor force*

Universally mechanized battle armor force *WITH THE CAPABILITY FOR NUCLEAR WEAPONS!*

The Elias in mine-form makes Civilization-posting possible!

[worktroll]

The IS Standard battlearmour suit was produced in the thousands, and many remain active on the field of battle even after the Jihad's conclusion. While reasonably armoured and mobile, a common opinion was that the suit lacked a strong offensive punch.

Various manufacturers hit on a range of similar ideas, involving varying degrees of complexity and cost. In practice, complex changes - such as replacing armour with advanced composits or stealth armour, or replacing the modular weapon mount with fixed larger weapons - had some popularity, but often caused problems when the suits were in the field and under strain. One of the more complex refits - more of a partial rebuild than a simple replacement kit - evolved following the disintegration of the FWL, in the erstwhile Duchy of Andurian.

Code: [Select]

Type/Model:    Inner Sphere Standard (field refit kit)
Tech/Era:      Inner Sphere / 3100 / CBT Rules
Chassis Type:  Humanoid
Weight Class:  Medium (751-1000kg)
Rules:         Level 2, Standard design

Ground Speed:  10.8 km/h
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor Type:    Standard

------------------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Inner Sphere Standard (field refit kit)
Equipment:                                          Slots    Mass
Chassis Type:  Medium Class Humanoid                  0       175
Motive System: Ground Movement (1 MP)                 0         0
               Jump Jets       (3 MP)                 0       150
Armor Type:    9 Points Standard                      0       450

Manipulators:
  Left Arm:    Basic Manipulator (Mine Clearance)     0        15
  Right Arm:   Basic Manipulator (Mine Clearance)     0        15

Weapons and Equipment                Loc     Shots  Slots    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------
Modular Weapon Mount                 RA          -      1       10
David Light Gauss Rifle              Mount      15      1      100
Magnetic Clamps                      LA          -      2       30
Mine Dispenser                       Body        2      2       50
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Andurians had always had close contacts - of one kind or another - with the Capellan Confederation, and it was not unusual for the Andurians to have obtained a number of Fa Shih battlesuits. With the fall of the FWL, the Duchy was left for a period without access to modern battlesuit manufacturing facilities, and needed to revamp their existing IS Standard suits. An unsung engineer proposed to replicate the features of the Fa Shih on the body of the IS Standard. When challenged whether she could do this, she is reputed to have replied "Fa sure, dude!" - the nickname stuck to her creation.

The Fa Sure suit involves replacement chest and leg plates, carrying magnetic clamps, and replacement glove units. The Fa Shih's evolution from the IS Standard meant that in many cases fittings (particularly the glove and knee plates) could simply be fastened to the existing suit's structure. Attaching the mine dispensers was more challenging, and requires not insignificant work on the suit's backpack, but with determination (and enough brute force) is achievable.

The resulting suit is not elegant. The mine dispensers give it a decidedly lop-sided look, the effects of which are apparent to anyone watching the suit jumping. The additional equipment means the suit is limited to the lightest weaponry - the light MG and micro-grenade launcher are possible, but most users prefer the David light Gauss Rifle with its additional range.

Despite this, the suit not only matches the Fa Shih's capabilities, but does so with 50% more protection for the wearer. Between this, and the additional mobility provided by the magnetic clamps, the Fa Sure has become a highly desirable addition to the Duchy's forces. The main limit on production is access to salvaged Fa Shih components - to the extent that a number of cross-border raids are rumoured to have happened along the lines of "shopping trips".


[OOC - I'm using the BA Builder v2 spreadsheet, and I can't find any problems. The 200kg warload of the IS Std is reduced by 15kg for the right hand glove, 30kg for the mines, and 50kg for the magnets. The IS Std has all the available space, and mag clamps are 2 slots in "any one body location" as per TM v1.2. 105kg left over - voila! If you can fault the maths, please let me know. Comments as always welcomed.]

[worktroll]

Also the "Baka". Alas, the "Sushi Suit" didn't make the cut (pune intended :) )

[StCptMara]

I'm just saying, all your battle armor could have 20 armor and fire 7 SRMs a turn & it doesn't mean anything if you can't get them where you need them. the Fa Shih having mag clamps made it de-facto the best Inner Sphere battle armor for decades after its introduction simply because it was the only one you could use any vehicle or 'Mech in your force to get where it needed to go. The ability to guard multiple hexes of terrain thanks to the mine-dispensers was just gravy. People looking down on the Fa Shih simply because it had 2 less armor or doesn't have a one-shot missile launcher always struck me as kind of missing the point. battle armor exist for area denial. The Fa Shih gets to the terrain you want to deny the enemy and makes occupying it costly. Even now, few others are as flexible.

I mean, it does slow down non-omnis, but I have always been fond of deploying Fa Shih on Regulators or other fast hovers, with IS Standard on things like the Men Shen or, later, the Gun. The idea that I am putting my enemies between a rock (the minefields I just deployed) and a hard place(4 fast moving Gauss Rifles) is just a delight to me....and people like to say "CCAF tactics are back stabbing." 

[Minemech]

He was referring to my claim that the Fa Shih was a technically inferior rip off of standard IS BA with an ingenious idea built into it. I think that the armor made that much of a difference, whereas he thinks the theoretical mobility overtakes that.

[Gorgon]

Ironically, I think the proliferation of clan tech through out the Sphere is a point in the Fa Shih's favor. It can withstand a CLMedium just as well as the IS standard and both are equally dead when hit by any variety of Clan large laser.

[Colt Ward]

Ironically, I think the proliferation of clan tech through out the Sphere is a point in the Fa Shih's favor. It can withstand a CLMedium just as well as the IS standard and both are equally dead when hit by any variety of Clan large laser.

Except the 8 point IS Large & ER Large and 9 point IS LPL are still more common than Clan ERLL or LPL.

[MadCapellan]

Except the 8 point IS Large & ER Large and 9 point IS LPL are still more common than Clan ERLL or LPL.

Sure, but without a dedicated taxi the IS standard likely isn't even there to deny that ground in the first place, and the mines laid will continue to confound long after the suit is gone. That's way more valuable than requiring a second hit to kill is. finding the second hit to finish off that IS standard isn't that hard.

[Colt Ward]

It is not, but that is two shots not aimed at my mechs or tanks as I assault.

I agree Fa Shih are good for area denial, thus shaping the battlefield and fits the Capellan doctrines- and IMO is superior to it's concurrent options which were heavy or assault suits.  But I prefer to use Mediums & Lights to attack because they have mobility on their own compared to the Gnome or Grenadier a lot of folks reach for as part of their forces- but that is probably coming at Battle Armor from the Elemental-using experience.

[MadCapellan]

It is not, but that is two shots not aimed at my mechs or tanks as I assault.

It's only one additonal shot, & that assumes that non-mag clamp suit is keeping up with your mobile forces somehow. Considering most are getting 3-4 hexes of movement tops under their own power, you're better off with the force that can actually engage. Now certainly Fa Shih compare poorly to Elementals in a Nova, but Clantech OmniMech forces are inherently better than IS ones by definition. Giving up being able to engage when & where you need to to be able to absorb another SRM-6 worth of damage just doesn't strike me as a sound trade off. There's no shortage of secondary weapons that will deliver that coup de grace easily.

[Colt Ward]

Not comparing them to Elementals, but rather my IS BA tactics follow similar routes where I use them to assault an enemy position.  And yes, that means I need APCs or VTOLs, and to deliver the troops to the point of contact at the right moment.  Which is also why I prefer jumping BA over ground bound- because I can toss those BA out of VTOLs w/ less risk to the VTOL than I could grounders- despite my heart wanting to like the Theseus.

IMO for jumping IS BA with missile, you have to do the same sort of thing.  Longinus (and later Asura) squads need to be dropped right to the edge battle so they can unload that SRM (or MRM) pack as needed and get a move on.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Mag clamps are largely a thing to be utilized if you have a mech-heavy force that lacks omnimechs.  And yeah, that describes the Confederation when the Fa Shih was introduced but BA haulers are plentiful now.

[MarauderD]

Mag clamps are largely a thing to be utilized if you have a mech-heavy force that lacks omnimechs.  And yeah, that describes the Confederation when the Fa Shih was introduced but BA haulers are plentiful now.

The Gun being a pretty nice option.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Gun really needs more durability (not possible for its size) or more speed for me to like it.  But that's a personal preference.

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, the Gun is a death trap. Putting battle armor on it just four more bodies on the coffin, I'm afraid. Not impressed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Gun has a problem that can be said of very few mechs: it's got too much firepower.  Unlike most 20 tonners, especially ones that are purely built out of Inner Sphere tech, it's got enough weaponry to be dangerous and consequently worth prioritizing for early destruction, unlike a Hornet or Stinger.

[MadCapellan]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

[MarauderD]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

I'm getting off topic--but the Gun is a cheap BV wise battle taxi for Amazon/Ying Long suits.  Not to mention it can support them against other BA with the Plasma Rifle variant.  All theorycrafting here, since I haven't played with BA as the CCAF in ages.  But I can see some utility for the Gun to transport clamp-less BA to the front, and then support them against vehicles and other BA.  I'm not contending that it should go head to head against other mechs, for example!

[theothersarah]

I like the Gùn because it's a cheap way to get a heavy PPC, but for an actual Capellan/Canopian BA taxi I like the Strider. It's faster, more durable, and not much more expensive. I wish it had a version with Angel and Bloodhound because I like to play with the TacOps Active Probe Targeting/ECCM/Ghost Targets rules - the Gùn has a setup with those but the rest of the package is lacking even compared to the average Strider.

I prefer the Strider D and its TAG, BAP, and C3S (and the ability to share the BAP targeting benefit over C3) plus accurate pairs of MPL and Streak 2s. Not the most spectacular setup, but it offers a good spread of utility for spotting and close-in support.

edit: If you're not playing by the strict 3150 IlClan list, the Owens F is probably even better. For some reason the Capellans gave it up after Late Republic and the Canopians never used it, but TAG, BAP, C3S, ECM, an LPPC, a couple of ERSLAS, and TCOMP is probably about the best you can do with that chassis and probably close to the best you can do for a stock IS BA taxi.

[Retry]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

Fa Shih are armored infantry, Gùns are Battlemechs.

In a similar manner, Great Turtles have an effective 92 standard scale armor on their center torsos, which is amazing for any Battlemech, but I'd be less than impressed if I had to use a Warship with similar protection on the nose (~9 capital-scale)

[MadCapellan]

Fa Shih are armored infantry, Gùns are Battlemechs.

Are you arguing that it is okay for BattleMechs to be armored worse than infantry? I'm afraid you'd need to expound on that for me to make heads or tails of it.

[MadCapellan]

But I can see some utility for the Gun to transport clamp-less BA to the front, and then support them against vehicles and other BA.

Against what sorts or vehicles and BA? What can the Gùn possibly assist battle armor against that isn't going to tear it to shreds? A single large laser or AC/10 shot can cripple it. At least the Fa Shih would still have 3 fully functional troopers.

[Maingunnery]

Against what sorts or vehicles and BA? What can the Gùn possibly assist battle armor against that isn't going to tear it to shreds? A single large laser or AC/10 shot can cripple it. At least the Fa Shih would still have 3 fully functional troopers.

Buildings, BA, Bug-Mechs.
The Gùn is more of a legged IFV then a battle design.

[Retry]

Are you arguing that it is okay for BattleMechs to be armored worse than infantry? I'm afraid you'd need to expound on that for me to make heads or tails of it.

No, I'm supporting your point.

[MadCapellan]

No, I'm supporting your point.

Oh, excellent! My apologies for the misunderstanding!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Gun's entry in TRO 3145 does say that it's intended for infantry support and garrison duty.  So it's not intended to actually fight other mechs.

Yet another reason I wouldn't assign it to a mech force for BA hauling.

[MadCapellan]

Buildings, BA, Bug-Mechs.
The Gùn is more of a legged IFV then a battle design.

Bug 'Mechs generally fear battle armor in my experience, not the other way around. Buildings generally aren't a threat, and you'd probably be able to bring better tools to kill battle armor on a transport VTOL or actual IFV.

[Maingunnery]

Bug 'Mechs generally fear battle armor in my experience, not the other way around. Buildings generally aren't a threat, and you'd probably be able to bring better tools to kill battle armor on a transport VTOL or actual IFV.

Most Bug 'Mechs can effectively out-range or kite BA, the Gùn creates a bubble of doom that will allow its BA to do their job.
Concerning buildings, they can be occupied by hostile infantry, and at times it is better to destroy that building then using the BA.
The Gùn brings its 'Mech advantages to the IFV role (Mech maneuverability, Mech heat dissipation, etc).

[Hellraiser]

A 20-ton mech moving 5.8.0 has 2 possible roles that don't get it killed quickly........ infantry suppression & LRM support.
Neither of which the Gun does.
Endo & XL Gyro for IS+Gyro that way a total of 3 tons?   Small Cockpit when your not a Blakist cyborg?
I question the need to get a Heavy PPC onto my 20 ton mech.

The Engine size is really the only thing I like about the Gun & the mission of supporting infantry.
But making it an Omni & using all those nifty weight techs was a waste of resources IMO.
For the era, to support infantry, I'd think you would be better off mounting a couple ERMLs & Light MGs & maybe some JJs.
Basically a half sized Watchman.

[Minemech]

 The Strider and Owens have always been good special support units, with the latter standing out because its XL Engine made it shinier. The Gun is workable under controlled conditions, but that is its problem. Yet, what do you expect from a mech its mass these days.

[MadCapellan]

Yet, what do you expect from a mech its mass these days.

A 'Mech that can consistently pull a +4 TMM able to snipe, skirmish, or deal burst fire vs conventionals?

[Minemech]

A 'Mech that can consistently pull a +4 TMM able to snipe, skirmish, or deal burst fire vs conventionals?

In some ways I wonder if there was a bit of Locust/Cicada humor in the design. The Cicada famously had a PPC variant that the Locust could never match, then the Cicada got a beauty of a Heavy PPC variant and now a mech could match it at 20 tons.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Except that Cicada is 40% faster, has around triple the armor, and carries 4 ER Medium Lasers in addition to the HPPC.  It is not "matched" by the Gun.

[Minemech]

Except that Cicada is 40% faster, has around triple the armor, and carries 4 ER Medium Lasers in addition to the HPPC.  It is not "matched" by the Gun.

The speed is undeniable, but the Cicada also 1 upped the Locust previously in the omni Strider which was also slow. No one will defend the armor of the Gun. It seems like a parody of that old rivalry.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just pointing out that a 20 ton mech really can't match the HPPC Cicada except in the most technical sense of being able to put a Heavy PPC on a 20 ton mech.  If you really want to compare the Gun A to an older mech, I'd look at the Hollander.

[Minemech]

Just pointing out that a 20 ton mech really can't match the HPPC Cicada except in the most technical sense of being able to put a Heavy PPC on a 20 ton mech.  If you really want to compare the Gun A to an older mech, I'd look at the Hollander.

I do not think that it was meant to be taken outside of the context of the old rivalry, an easter egg if you will for us old fogies (Not in the intellectual sense).

[BrianDavion]

the Gun is a glorified omni urbie. a slow over gunned lightmech that can deal horrific damage sure but likely will die fast in a battlefield where it faces anything bigger then it