Author Topic: Hydroponics in space?  (Read 12418 times)

AnubisZombie

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Hydroponics in space?
« on: 31 March 2011, 17:14:15 »

I'm try to make space people and can't decide on what a good tonnage for per person per year should be for the farms. Maybe a better way to do it would be tons produced per ton of bay per year.

At the best case scenario people consume 1 ton per person every 200 days. So  lets call that 2 tons per person per year. (That's with everybody in 1st class cabins, if im understanding consumables right) So lets call that 1 ton food and 1 ton water per year.

How many tons of Hydroponics bay should it take to grow 1 ton of food?

cray

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #1 on: 31 March 2011, 17:35:00 »
How many tons of Hydroponics bay should it take to grow 1 ton of food?

Wrong approach, IMO. Better question: how many tons of hydroponics does it take to keep 1 person happy indefinitely? That seems to work in GURPS:Vehicles and GURPS:Space.

For your home game (since there are no canon rules for hydroponics), 4 to 5 tons of dedicated hydroponics should be adequate to give soy-and-water meals per person. Crank it to 10 or 20 tons per person for a more varied diet.

You'll still need to replace some losses, since the "1 ton per 200 man-days" figure also includes air consumption, and other details like soap, toilet paper, etc., and no recycling - even if the plants replace air and you make homegrown papyrus TP - will be flawless. Also, the 1-per-200 figure does include quite a bit of air and water recycling already.

With hydroponics, you could probably change it to 1-ton-per-1000 man-days or 1-per-2000.

Quote
At the best case scenario people consume 1 ton per person every 200 days. So  lets call that 2 tons per person per year. (That's with everybody in 1st class cabins, if im understanding consumables right)

Officers/luxury/1st class quarters, and standard quarters, and steerage quarters all use the 1 ton per 200 man-days figure. It's the folks stuck in fighter/mech/infantry bays that use more, and the poor schmucks in cargo bays that use the most consumables.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #2 on: 31 March 2011, 17:59:42 »
I figured 1 ton food 1 ton water thinkin that oxygen still gets cracked out of water in BT to some degree. That would be the main reason I could see the lesser bays needing more. Gotta crack work waters to get more air with the lower level of recycling.

I had figured hydroponics at 5 tons per ton produced in 1 year in past attempts but felt that was low. That's a good idea 5 tons being only protein paste and if you're lucky some mudders milk  ;D 10-20 tons does sound better for a more well rounded diet. Maybe that could be a caste thing. laborers get paste and pilots get fresh greens  [tickedoff]

Now what about meat? I was thinkin maybe some cattle on grav decks on the farmships. Is that to much  :o OR the ever popular "lab grown" meat, for that stuff you could have sworn must have been jello  [drool]

cray

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #3 on: 31 March 2011, 18:37:04 »
I figured 1 ton food 1 ton water thinkin that oxygen still gets cracked out of water in BT to some degree.

Yes. Most inhaled oxygen goes to one of two places: exhaled moisture and exhaled carbon dioxide. Crack them and you get your air back.

Quote
I had figured hydroponics at 5 tons per ton produced in 1 year in past attempts but felt that was low.

GURPS, which usually does it homework, actually pegs it as quite a bit lighter. However, 5 to 20 tons seems to fit BT and covers a lot of spare room. Meat production can be heavy.

Quote
Now what about meat? I was thinkin maybe some cattle on grav decks on the farmships. Is that to much  :o OR the ever popular "lab grown" meat, for that stuff you could have sworn must have been jello  [drool]

If you keep it to something like fish, shrimp/krill, maybe chicken or rabbits, then the 10- to 20-ton hydroponic bays should give you some meat at least once a week. Krill are a good choice because they're low on the food chain - they eat plankton. Bigger critters like most fish, chicken, and rabbits are several rungs up the food chain and thus you pick up inefficiencies. Just dug this up:

"To avoid downplaying potential impacts, this analysis uses upper-bound conversion estimates of 7 pounds of corn to produce 1 pound of beef, 6.5 pounds of corn to produce 1 pound of pork, and 2.6 pounds of corn to produce 1 pound of chicken."

So, bigger mammals are inefficient means of "recycling." In a closed system, you'll pick up their exhalations, excretions, and other losses for recycling, but they're a slow way to turn hydroponics feedstock into food.

Fish were proven on Skylab to handle zero-G pretty well, so they don't even need centrifuges and can be part of a water cleaning ecosystem. Chickens can definitely handle small-diameter gravdecks; google up the Great Mambo Chickens, which were raised in lab centrifuges. I assume rabbits are the same. Pork, cattle, and sheep will need larger human-scale gravdecks and thus are more problematic, especially if the ship needs to switch to zero-G or elevated thrust (over 0.1G).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #4 on: 31 March 2011, 18:56:52 »
Yeah cows might be pushin i  :D The grain tonnage consumed would be rediculous. Maybe a dedicated cow ship that grows grain just for a small herd to feed the upper  elite the ultimate in space food... beef. Fish is a good idea. You can pack them in tight in the water but it still might get heavy on an industrial scale. It would still probably be a luxury item.

Oh the centrifuge chicken is good. Imagine one of those industrial turky barns wrapped around a Behemoth with all the turkeys up on the ceiling, and its spinning :) good stuff. You could stand in the core and throw the feed "down" to them. to funny.

Im gonna start with a basic factory habitat using just hydroponics and maybe look at putting fish and chicken on dedicated farm ships or something like that. Keeping thousands of people and livestock on the same ships just feels like inviting bad things

Medron Pryde

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #5 on: 31 March 2011, 22:06:00 »
Naw...that only happens when the Scottish take Sheep with them.  ;)

Seriously, the fish approach could work well on any ship, and next to a hydroponics bay they would work well.  :)
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Marwynn

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #6 on: 31 March 2011, 23:14:33 »
This reminds me of that episode in Firefly when they had cattle on board.

Don't neglect "home grown" food. Space people would probably be encouraged to do their own zero-g gardening of some kind. Surely there'd be some alien vegetation or genetically engineered foods that could exist in zero-g. Hopefully not pineapples, but perhaps tomatoes and herbs for tea and such.

Were you thinking of having centralized farms or family (or corporation) owned farms? Might be fun having space farm villages in stations and so forth.

Soy and krill, tastes like Shadowrun already.

AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #7 on: 31 March 2011, 23:49:58 »
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,3928.0.html

Ok here is the first attempt.

Family farming would be fun and good for moral.... but that's the problem....this is battletech.... not space hippies. No my caplan servitoresque drones most  make due with mere rumors of green things in other parts on yonder the other end of the ship. Besides if the entire crew could get in the plants room they'd all get contaminated and sick real fast. It's true you can't let all them filthy animal around the plants. Besides it's really just more fun crushing their spirits anyway, gotta get somethin back out of a 27billion c-bill investment:)

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #8 on: 01 April 2011, 09:19:42 »
How much do the two hydroponics bays on the Invader jumpship weigh?

These are fluffed as having the ability to supply the 24 crew with food and oxygen plus a small surplus so you might be able to figure something out from that.
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cray

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #9 on: 01 April 2011, 09:22:28 »
How much do the two hydroponics bays on the Invader jumpship weigh?

There are no stats for the Invader's hydroponics bays. The Invader is built as a normal JumpShip with no tonnage given to the hydroponics bays.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
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Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Korzon77

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #10 on: 01 April 2011, 21:37:26 »
Note that it's alos likely Btech biotech is up to making "meat beasts" essentially undifferntiated colonies of cells (think edible cancer) that are harvested from a bioreactor.  While requiring a bit more tecnology the fact of the matter is any sort of farm on a spaceship is already going to be pretty high tech, while this would be far more space effecient.

AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #11 on: 02 April 2011, 02:11:45 »
Oh wow the meat paste becomes even more appetizing when you call it cancer  :-\ Guess it really kinda is  #P

Korzon77

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #12 on: 02 April 2011, 03:08:15 »
Think of it another way-- all the joy of that nice steak-- but no worries about how the animal was raised, and whether or not it was killed humanely-- you're meat beast has neither brain nor nerves to feal pain wth.

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #13 on: 02 April 2011, 03:54:26 »
Note that it's alos likely Btech biotech is up to making "meat beasts" essentially undifferntiated colonies of cells (think edible cancer) that are harvested from a bioreactor.  While requiring a bit more tecnology the fact of the matter is any sort of farm on a spaceship is already going to be pretty high tech, while this would be far more space effecient.

Undifferentiated cell colonies are available at many supermarkets-- its called tripe.  IMNSHO, a proper 'meat beast' is a tentacle of spun muscle fibers with a circulatory system, some fat, and some nerve endings so that it can get a bit of exercise.

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #14 on: 02 April 2011, 08:43:41 »
EEuugh..... Not hungry EVER AGAIN!!!    :P

Medron Pryde

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #15 on: 03 April 2011, 00:25:28 »
You know....I had an epiphany today...or maybe it was a brain fart....

Anyways, I realized that all major space going ships have fuel bunkers that carry between 100s and thousands of tons of...water...

Fish grow in water...rather naturally...

Just saying...

 }:)
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FedSunsBorn

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #16 on: 03 April 2011, 18:35:21 »
(think edible cancer)

That.....is just....wrong.

Also, I know that ships carry tons of water but what is that all used for? Oxygen, toilets, coolant maybe? Cleaning those tanks would be rough as well due to the size of some of those tanks....
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cray

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #17 on: 03 April 2011, 19:14:43 »
Also, I know that ships carry tons of water but what is that all used for? Oxygen, toilets, coolant maybe?

Bathing uses a lot.

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Cleaning those tanks would be rough as well due to the size of some of those tanks....

The engineering problem is solved. Large fresh water tanks are staples of oceangoing ships. Crews even have to clean out fuel tanks by crawling in them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #18 on: 03 April 2011, 20:36:37 »
Think of it another way-- all the joy of that nice steak-- but no worries about how the animal was raised, and whether or not it was killed humanely-- you're meat beast has neither brain nor nerves to feal pain wth.
Uh, no.  Believe it or not, a steak (or any other piece of meat, and vegetables are the same as well) is actually quite complex.  A culture of muscle cells is little more than meat paste.  For a simple culture of muscle cells grown in a bio reactor don't think Steak, think hamburgers and chicken nuggets.

Real meat has the muscle cells combined into muscle fibers, which combined with connective tissues gives structure.  This structure is built up by working the muscle (which is why certain muscle groups are tougher.)  Unless you exercise cultured meat you're getting something like veal once you add in connective tissue.  For that you need something to generate a electrical bias, something like nerves.  Now you have a structure that is dense enough a nutrient bath is insufficient, you need a vascular system to bring oxygen and nutrients to the cells.  There's also the fact that fat and bone provide flavor to the meat.  In order to get a steak you would need an artificial cow.

That's not to say decent meat isn't impossible, but it would still be different than something from an actual animal.  Actual cuts of meat from larger animals would be quite the commodity in space.   Likely any meat would be small animals, but you don't have to be restricted to chickens and rabbits.  You might scoff at it, but squirrels, snakes, rodents, etc, are all things people do eat, and the variety would be very good for morale.  I also like the idea of fish  upstream of the water filtration systems (or in the greywater tanks used for hydroponics)

AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #19 on: 03 April 2011, 20:47:28 »
Corporate executives diving on terrestrial beef and wine laughing all the while at the peasant factory workers eating culture vat grown "cancer paste" and mudders milk. That sounds like good times.

Growin legs of beef could be done on a circut with individual "beefs" being grown off a mass circulitory system. At that point you might as well have cows with the legs cut off hooked up to tubes or somethin...

no im much more inclined towards the beef-paste-jello both for story and practicality reasons.

cray

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #20 on: 04 April 2011, 06:46:02 »
Growin legs of beef could be done on a circut with individual "beefs" being grown off a mass circulitory system. At that point you might as well have cows with the legs cut off hooked up to tubes or somethin...

That'd be a handy way of centralizing an immune system, too.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #21 on: 11 May 2011, 14:26:18 »
Years ago, I reverse engineered the Hydroponics Domes on the Invader class Jumpship (along with a lot of research into modern hydroponics systems and theoretical systems envisioned by NASA) to yield the following:
 
 


Hydroponics Dome: Optional Aerotech equipment
Hydroponics Domes are automated food factories that can provide fresh fruit, vegetables, and grains as well as acting as a natural air and water filtration system in lieu of artificial systems. A Hydroponics Dome measures 100 meters in diameter and reaches a height of 24 meters at the top of the Dome from the base. Divided into three seven-meter decks, this provides enough space for a full 1,250 kg of food output every day with year-round sequencing of harvest. Automated tending systems harvest the output of a portion of the Dome every day that permits a continual supply of food for up to 325 people. The major limitation of the system is the fact that it provides little to no high-protein foods that make up 20% of an average diet. As such the Hydroponics Dome can only extend normal food reserves, not replace them entirely.

Wastewater from the Jumpship crew and any attached Dropships is cycled into the Hydroponics systems for a two-fold benefit. First, it provides a natural system of water filtration, allowing tons of artificial filtration systems to be removed. Secondly it provides most of the nutrients necessary for healthy plant growth. Artificial air filtration and recycling systems can also be removed as the Domes replace their function as well. With a steady supply of meat and dairy products for the crew and passengers (necessary anyway for the health of the crew) it adds lost nutrients into the system, keeping the system viable without extensive 'support' animals normally necessary for healthy plant growth.

Game Rules:
Hydroponics Domes weigh 150 tons and cost 5 million C-Bills. Each Dome will extend the man-day value of food stores from 200 man-days per ton to 1,000 man-days per ton for a maximum of 325 people per Dome. This is usually sufficient for a Battalion-sized unit. Optionally, Invader class Jumpships may automatically have two of these Domes, consuming 300 tons of cargo space. (this also eliminates the price discrepancy of 13 million C-Bills for building an Invader using the construction rules of 487 million C-Bills vs. the canon 500 million C-Bill price)

Manually operated Domes only have a cost of 1 million, but require a crew to tend the plants and harvest them. Output of manual Domes is only sufficient for 20 people per day per crewman tending the Dome, up to the maximum of 325 people per day. (thus a manually operated Dome requires 17 personnel to fully exploit the output)

The weight is only the added equipment necessary to run the automation or provide the tools necessary to tend the Domes manually. The remainder of the weight comes from reduced Life Support equipment needed to recycle the air and water of the ship's crew and the ship's structure itself. A typical Invader class Jumpship can extend the food supplies of most of a Regiment of troops, or provide a steady income if the food supplies are sold commercially. If commercial sale is opted for, every ton of output will provide 100 C-bills of income. (commercial sale income includes the need to buy nutrients and water lost from waste reclamation)

Also, here's a fairly workable set of guidelines for creating custom Hydroponics using the same information.

Mass = 20 tons + 0.4 tons per person per day; add 30 tons + an additional 0.4 tons per person for complete diet (50 tons + 0.8/person)
Area = 39 m² per person + 62 m² per person for complete diet (7 meter height assumed for volume)
Cost = 880,000 + ( Area/person x People² ) rounded up to the next 1,000; + 1 C-bill per person per day for complete diet replacement nutrients

Thus, a 5-man complete diet Hydroponics bay weighs 54 tons, takes up 505m² of area, (3,535m³) and costs 893,000 + 5 C-Bills per day to maintain it. With these values, the canon Hydroponics bays on the Invader are the break-point of cost vs. mass. Increase to a larger size and cost starts getting really high. Decrease it much below them and the weight savings isn't realized due to the 20-ton minimum weight. (this is the bare minimum for enough water to work hydroponics at all... water is heavy  )

Anyway, I like it! (but then, I made it )
 


 
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AnubisZombie

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #22 on: 11 May 2011, 19:10:29 »
these are great thanx

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #23 on: 12 May 2011, 17:50:18 »
Added to all of the plants and horrifying meat paste, algae can provide sugars and other nutrients to allow some artificial food products. I've had algae based candies before and while they weren't great, they could make an acceptable treat for people without many alternatives (not growing much sugar cane in space). You could probably get a few vitamins in bulk to allow for less nutricious crops too.
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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #24 on: 13 May 2011, 02:11:24 »
Plain old soy. Not my first choice, but I've had decent food made of it, it's much less high tech, and it's high in protein.

I think just canned food would be cheaper in most cases. Hydroponics would be for provideing fresh food. (ie luxuries)
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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #25 on: 17 September 2019, 08:02:37 »
The Curiosity Stream documentary Dream the Future - Future of Farming discusses modern indoor farming, like the use of "red - blue" LED grow lights, optimized for the photo response of plant chlorophyll.  Superficially similar to hydroponics, maximum quoted yields of 300 tons per 3.5 hectares per year, plausibly soon 1 ton / hectare = 100g / m2 per year, think that was using vertical farming techniques of stacking growing beds vertically

Visually very striking, might make an intriguing space setting for someone's use of AT hydroponics:

« Last Edit: 17 September 2019, 18:56:29 by Thunderbolt »

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #26 on: 17 September 2019, 09:02:11 »
Take a look at Project Rho's entry on Life Support.  Winchell Chung has a massive collection of space travel related stuff, and it is kept current with corrections and new content.
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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #27 on: 17 September 2019, 09:25:41 »
This thread was dead for eight years.

In the future, please do not resurrect threads that are dead and gone for stuff like this. Instead start a new thread. In this case, the appropriate forum would be Off Topic.
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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #28 on: 17 September 2019, 19:02:05 »
What about fan fiction then?  Hydroponics is a realistic if minor backdrop for the BTU

You could even imagine crops adapted to other worlds which would necessitate different spectra, Betelgeuse beets, Capellan carrots, Oberon onions and what not?

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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #29 on: 17 September 2019, 20:44:25 »
Sure, that works.
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Re: Hydroponics in space?
« Reply #30 on: 18 September 2019, 19:09:28 »
But if you want to introduce rules for them, they would belong down in the Fan Rules section...

 

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