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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: ItsTehPope on 10 March 2012, 12:09:53

Title: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: ItsTehPope on 10 March 2012, 12:09:53
The author would like to note ahead of time due to illness, there was no time for editing.  He apologizes in advance and will clear the article up as people note it:

Normally I try to write an article in a humorous, somewhat snarky tone.  This works best when covering unfortunate tragedies such as the Targe, the Garm and the like.  This attitude does not work well when covering one of the deadliest Omnimechs ever designed in this game.  Quite frankly, more of a factual analysis should be used here and sprinkled with hushed reverent tones.  It deserves no less.

    Starting with the fluff on this ride, we learn of its slightly convoluted history.  The name Dire Wolf would indicate that it initally was a Wolf design, but deployment in Operation REVIVAL would indicate that the Jaguars were the most prolific user.  3050U bears out the story behind this.  The initial design was the brain-child of the Wolf scientist caste, which trialed for and successfully won the design.  The TRO entry states that the Trial, not shockingly, may not have been the most honorably conducted out there.  Ulric, thinking somewhat quickly, performed a Trial of Posession for rights to at least produce what really still is the crown jewl of Clan Battlemech warfare.  (We shall not discuss the Hellstar..)  All Dire Wolf manufacturing has been done on either Strana Mechty by the Wolves, Huntress by the Jaguars, or by the Dragoons on Outreach.  With Outreach doing a reasonable impersonation of a glowstick, the Jaguars dead and their line presumably along with it, that leaves the manufacturing center on Strana Mechty, and well.....we know that the Wolves don’t have access to that anymore.  If it is still intact, no one at my pay grade really knows.  I can see the argument for it being purified for having Spheroid taint.  (Ben, Herb...wanna throw us a bone here?)  Any Dire Wolves in the Inner Sphere are what’s left, hard stop.  I’m honestly not sure we will ever see these made again, but I, as a fan of the aesethic of the design, and of OmniMechs in general, I hope to see it again.

Right then.

Off to the crunchy bits.

The structure is something of a rarity for Clans, which to be totally honest is for the best in this case.  Standard issue steel, dating back to the days of Ye Olden Mackie.  The armor is the same thing, bog standard, 16 points per ton variety, saving yet more critical slots.  While these may not be laid out .  The only weight saver comes via the Satrfire 300XL under the hood.  Fixed equipment gets a little on the head scratchy side.  The only equipment that should fixed are in theory the maximum number of heat sinks that can fit in the engine.  Usually jump jets are the biggest bits of fixed equipment that tends to cause consternation.  The bits that are fixed on this frame are five extra heat sinks, which results in 30 base points of sinkage.  Twelve of them fit into the engine itself, with three hanging out in the frame.  One is placed into each side torso and a third in the left leg, oddly enough.

Protecting all of this is xx tons with xxx points total.  This is spread out with 34 on the arms, 41 on the legs, side torsos in a 32/10 split and centerline a 47/14.  Guess the head armor.  Outside putting a 12 pointer to the head, killing it will require a fair amount of effort.  Okay.  A lot of effort, lets be honest here.  The back armor being so high dosen’t bother me, as fast movers will have good chances at getting back there and chewing on your hind quarters - it’ll buy you a moment before flipping arms and removing the irritant.

If there is anything I could change about the base frame, it would be to drop three fixed heat sinks, but its honestly a small quibble considering the crimes of other other 3050 Omnimechs.  As a rule, most of the fire power is concentrated in the arms on all of the configurations, with torso’s holding an ancillary crit seaking weapon if anything.

The prime configuration starts off with twin ER Large lasers, twin medium pulses and a UAC5, with its own ton of ammo..  Now mirror that on the other arm.  The ancillary torso weapon is an LRM 10 with one ton of ammo.  The base 30 heat sinks are supplemented by six more added into the side torsos for a total of 44 points of sinking.  This weapon loadout will handidly overwhelm the heat seating capability, but it has so many options I’m not too worried.  There’s a few obvious firing patterns regarding the UAC’s and the ERL’s, but the level of options you have, its not too much of an issue.  Choose your weapons as your heat load and target numbers dictate.  Play it like a 3025 era Rifleman or Stallker.  Ride the heat curve, and you will be rewarded.  If I were to improve it, I would drop the LRM 10 and ammo and use it to add more heat sinks.  It likely dosen’t need the crit seeking.  It can be a brute when used by unskilled players, but in the right hands, can be a devastating scalpel, always putting down the best possible firepower.

Alpha configuration, made famous as being used by Victor Davion in most of the novels is more focused on a long range fight and also plays much cooler than the Prime.  The right arm has three large pulse lasers and the left carries a gauss rifle with three tons of ammo, which is plenty for most table top scenarios.  The left torso holds a pair of Streaking SRM6’s each being fed by its own ton of ammo.  The right torso holds an AMS with a massive amount of ammo (72 rounds of fire)  The amount of ammo for the system makes more sense when you consider the older rules (1D6 ammo usage).  As it stands, the bottom third of the right torso is a large bomb.  Carrying 44 points of heat sinkage, assuming no extra heat sources or damaged engines, can perfectly sink its warload and run every turn (assuming both Streaks lock and the AMS fires).  Nasty, but boring to drive.

Beta configuration is bizzare.  That's all there is to it.  Only mounting the base 30 heat sinks, the left arm mounts two PPCs, 2 pulse lasers of the medium variety, the Right arm mounting an LBX10.  The torso guns are a quad set of UAC2’s in paired sets on the side torsos.  Each pair shares a ton of ammo.  And a superfluous ER Small Laser in the CT.  Its safe to say that the cooling array is lacking, but not terribly so, but man....the heat sink juggling is not fun.  I’m not quite sure what I’d change on here, but that UAC mess needs to go.

Charlie configuration is one that gets floated out as “Among the best ever” when it is in fact, fairly lackluster.  Good, but not great.  Notably, the damned thing flies.  Three jump jets sit in the torsos, giving it a little bit of extra maneuverability.  The warload is built around paired ERPPCs and ATM6’s, but the missiles have only two tons of ammo total.  Choose your warload carefully on this one.  When in close, it adds 4 medium pulses to the mix, and a single shot SSRM4.  Adding to the mix is a 4 ton TarComp sitting in right torso, so those shots are just going to hurt that much more.   An added bonus is the ECM suite, giving you some defensive assistance.  46 total heat points spread all over, and a weapon generation of 50 means that for perfect heat dissipation means you leave an ATM or MPL out every turn to just keep movement heat.  This is a nasty little infighter though, and very good for munching through cities.

The Delta configuration is, to my knownledge the first weapons platform to mount a pair of the Clan’s largest weapon, the HAG 40, with 10 tons of ammo sitting in the side torsos.  The backup weapons are a pair of medium pulses sitting centerline, and a SSRM6 in the left torso.  And an ER Small in the head, but it seems to be there mostly to kill a half ton and soak a head crit.  This thing has only one purpose in life.  Close, and unload.  And it has enough ammo to do so.  It could probably be improved, but I like the “All or nothing” approach it takes.

The Hotel Configuration (Authors note: At this point I stopped and wondered how many there were left to do and was dismayed) moves to use paired heavy large lasers and gauss rifles, one per arm.  The rifles are fed by 4 tons of ammo.  Backup weapons consist of an ER Small and a medium pulse.  The heavy larges and gauss rifles are boosted by a massive 7 ton Tarcomp in the right torso.  It can fire the primary battery and run every turn and be heat neutral.  Not seeing any obvious candidates for improvement, maybe adding some more guass ammo via removing the pulse laser.

The Sierra is the “Urban Combat/close quarters” variant of this machine.  Of note, it jumps..yes its a lot of tonnage, but that maneuverability in tight spots is quite rude.  The left arm is a boatload of heat sinks and a Large Pulse.  Backing this largepulse up is 5 medium pulses to really make fast movers think twice about getting close.  A Streak 4 in the CT is fed by a ton of ammo in the left side of the chest.  Now for the “Urban combat” aspect.  Two machine guns and an LBX20, each supplied generously are very handy for killing any vees or pesky footsloggers hanging around your feet.  A pair of A-pods in the right leg, assisting with that “OH GOD GET THEM OFF ME” thing infantry do well.   Of note for dropping it, the right torso is a bit of a bomb so when that gets opened up start throwing any crit seeking you have on it.  Heat load is covered well enough, you can walk and alpha all day with 40 points of heat dissipation.  No matter what, this thing is Scary.

Whiskey is a design that harks back to the Delta thought process of “Two big barrels, some secondary guns and plenty of ammo”  The arm mounted gauss rifle is fed with a generous dollop of 4 tons of ammo.  The torso mounted UAC20 gets two.  I really wish the numbers were reversed, but the gauss will get more use as a whole, so eh.  The right arm is nothing but a massive heat sink array and a Large Laser.  An LRM20 helps the gauss rifle at range fed by two tons of ammo.  Two medium pulses round out the arsenal in the center torso and an ER Small in the head.  With 40 heat points of disspation, you can run and gun most of the day, but with so little UAC20 ammo, you are actually seriously oversinked.

The X chassis was introduced to us in Total Warfare, and has one of every weapon system out there as far outside of the HAG as far as I can determine...with a weapons array so scatterbrained that the Albatross feels unfortunate in the same hangar...armed with an SSRM2, 2 ER Micros, am ATM6 with three tons of ammo, LRM15 with Artemis, SRM4 with Artemis (each having their own ton of ammo) LBX5 with two tons of ammo, a UAC10 with two tons of ammo, a large pulse laser, and a medium heavy laser.  Oh, and a targeting computer for good measure.  Needless to say, the cooling array is woefully overtaxed with things to do as it only has the default 30 points of sinkage.  That said, you can never complain about not having options on this monster...

Going into the Hohiro podset, we see what the Coordinator himself determined was the best way to utilize his tonnage.  The primary long ranged arsenal is a PPC and a gauss rifle, which is fed by two tons of ammo.  “Mid-range” power is supplied by a triplicate of Large Pulses and a streak 6 with its own ton round out the show.  With 46 points of heat sink, you can fire the main battery and suffer only movement heat.  Clearly, this thing is meant to fire often and with the range brackets it has, from cover.  Its a NASTY ride and one of the best ones out there.

The Prometheus, designed by Lord Midget, First Prince, Precentor Martial, Paladin Victor Davion replaces the gauss rifle with a UAC20, and the PPC with two ER Larges.  The large pulse laser stack stays in place (Guess they had them on sale during that period of time on Outreach) The Streak rack becomes a regular SRM6 for today.  The same 46 points of heat dissipation are here, so it will be overtaxed a bit, but I don’t mind as much here as its clearly designed to get in close and tear things up.

The Widowmaker.  Natasha Kerensky.  This machine is often spoke of in hushed tones and brings on Gregorian chants.  This machine is the queen of mean.  Each arm sports an ER PPC and a Large Pulse laser.  Sitting in the right torso you have an Ultra AC 20, fed by two tons of ammo coming off the corrresponding arm (Yeah, no clue there).  Two mediums in the center torso and a small laser for good measure in the head.  Cooled by a whopping 25DHS, it can fire the primary energy battery all day and not care.  If I could improve it without changing anything, it would be from moving a heat sink from the left torso into the right arm and shifting the ammo over.

In short, one of the nastiest, most lethal war machines to ever grace the universe and should be respected as much.  Seyla.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Blackjack Jones on 10 March 2012, 12:42:58
Well done sir, hope you you are back up to speed soon.

The only "major" gaff I see is leaving the armor tonnage and totals with an x value.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ghostbear_Gurdel on 10 March 2012, 14:04:55
1st Paragraph:
Quote
The initial design was the brain-child of the Wolf scientist caste, which trialed for and successfully won the design.  The TRO entry states that the Trial, not shockingly, may not have been the most honorably conducted out there.
I think it should be mentioned that the Smoke Jaguars trialed for the mech, not the wolf Scientist caste.

Whenever one of my friends wants to produce the most terrifying assault mech they can, they always seem to start with a Dire Wolf and that's saying something.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Jellico on 10 March 2012, 14:46:05
Normally I try to write an article in a humorous, somewhat snarky tone.  This works best when covering unfortunate tragedies such as the Targe, the Garm and the like.  This attitude does not work well when covering one of the deadliest Omnimechs ever designed in this game.  Quite frankly, more of a factual analysis should be used here and sprinkled with hushed reverent tones.  It deserves no less.

Meh. Sure you can. Dire Wolves are death traps beloved by munchkins with no appreciation of the value of movement who play in two map sand boxes.
In brief, you can wade a Dire Wolf into trouble, but if you can't fight your way out it dies. There is no retreat with these things.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 10 March 2012, 14:56:03
Spoken like a true Executioner pilot!!

Nice article, Pope! One thing that I'd add would be the U configuration of 3085 ONN.

The Dire Wolf A was one of the banned 'Mechs in my first gaming group when I got into the game. The only other chasses were the Warhawk C and as soon as it was released, the Turkina B (the Timber Wolf A got a dis-honourable mention on the same list). Essentially it was a flawless design, at least by the standards of its time.

Does anyone remember the short-lived MechWarrior 3? The way that the game engine worked, clusters of ACs were quite scary. The Annihilator could take you off your feet with an Alpha Strike. But IMO the biggest monster of that game was actually the "Daishi" B. The big guns were enough to seriously threaten you, but it was the insane volume of fire of the ACs that never let you catch your breath. I hated going up against that 'Mech in the game more than any other foe. And I really enjoyed that because finally the unloved B got some attention! It's not a bad configuration, having a lower BV than the others, though generally I invest that little extra amount of points.

Finally, the Dire Wolf D is death. The Marauder IIC 4 actually preceded it, but those few additional guns actually make a nice difference. In my experiences, the Dire Wolf D joins the Turkina D as being the only 'Mechs I'm aware of that can literally kill - not crit, not head-cap, but downright destroy - a 100-tonner in 2-3 turns. Ouch.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Auren on 10 March 2012, 15:28:07
Meh. Sure you can. Dire Wolves are death traps beloved by munchkins with no appreciation of the value of movement who play in two map sand boxes.
In brief, you can wade a Dire Wolf into trouble, but if you can't fight your way out it dies. There is no retreat with these things.

If you can't use a Dire Wolf to fight your way out of trouble that you deliberately went and found...  :-X

More over, if you let your Dire Wolf get distracted by light mechs who run away all the time, there isn't much hope for you to begin with. Especially with the massive energy weapon arrays most configs have.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ruger on 10 March 2012, 15:44:46
Does anyone remember the short-lived MechWarrior 3? The way that the game engine worked, clusters of ACs were quite scary. The Annihilator could take you off your feet with an Alpha Strike.

I remember that first Annihilator you encounter in that game kicked my butt the first few times I tried it...first time, I was in range and then flat on my back before I even knew it was there...

Ruger
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: iamfanboy on 10 March 2012, 15:59:58
The problem some Clan players have with the Dire Wolf can be summed up in a simple phrase:

It feels like a Spheroid assault, not a Clan assault.

Rather than following the idea that assaults should be reasonably fast but still strong enough to break holes open in the enemy lines that the heavy cav designs can exploit, and that warfare should be limited in scope to conserve resources and remain civilized, the Dire Wolf flaunts everything. It is a slow juggernaut of a 'Mech designed to beat down the opposition, plodding forward slowly and laying waste to all in its path. Its style of destruction is glacial, not lightning: grinding forward inevitably, crushing everything in front of it.

This is not a bad thing.

But it does fly in the face of what the Clan style of warfare is supposed to be all about. Take the Hellstar; yes, it's hell on two legs, but it's basically a refinement of the Warhawk Prime.

The Daishi lives up to the name given it by terrified Combine MechWarriors: It is Grand Death incarnate.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Diablo48 on 10 March 2012, 16:24:06
A few edits I noticed while reading through the article before I start:

"Protecting all of this is xx tons with xxx points total." should have the numbers 19.0 tons and 304 points.

"The left torso holds a pair of Streaking SRM6’s each being fed by its own ton of ammo." should be Streak, not Streaking.

Now for the 'Mech.  The Dire Wolf is one of my favorite designs because of how unbelievably brutal it is.  Forget the Hellstar, the Dire Wolf can crush it without a crippling anti-assault mech specialization.  You can easily get four ERPPCs/Gauss Rifles into a Dire Wolf with enough sinks to fire them on the move, plenty of ammo, a Targeting Computer, and room left over for other goodies like a Flamer so you can toast infantry, SRMs to critseek, a small LRM rack, or some electronics.  When you combine this incredible payload with the flexibility of being an OmniMech, I think it is easy to say the Dire Wolf is one of the best 'Mechs in the game.

Another important weapon the Dire Wolf has going for it is its reputation.  Everyone in and out of universe knows full well that the Dire Wolf is without a doubt the single most deadly 'Mech ever built, so its presence will dominate a battlefield even among other Clan assault 'Mechs that are objectively on par with it.  When a Dire Wolf steps out onto the battlefield, it brings a legacy of terror and destruction with it that can crush the enemy before the first shots are fired.  In battle, fear kills, and the Dire Wolf is terror incarnate.

It is also a lot of fun to design configurations for because you can throw in everything you could ever want at long range, then add a nasty short range bracket, then sit back and wonder what to do with the rest of the pod space because the Dire Wolf had an unbelievable amount of pod space.  That is why I seem to be continuously generating new configurations for it and am up to 21 at this point according to SSW.  Most of these configurations are posted in my superthread (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,253.msg177137.html#msg177137) where they took up two posts because there are too many variants to fit in one.

That said, I am somewhat disappointed we have not gotten any canon iJJ variants because as backwards as it seems, the 100 ton weight class is actually the optimal point for a 3/5/5 XLE 'Mech and the thought of a Dire Wolf running down a heavy in urban combat makes me smile.

If you can't use a Dire Wolf to fight your way out of trouble that you deliberately went and found...  :-X

More over, if you let your Dire Wolf get distracted by light mechs who run away all the time, there isn't much hope for you to begin with. Especially with the massive energy weapon arrays most configs have.

Exactly.  The Dire Wolf is the ultimate assault 'Mech, so you should use it as such.  You find something that cannot get away from you and smash your way in that direction until it is dead and do not go after targets that are not significantly weaker than your hammer.  You just ignore anything faster than you unless it wanders into range of your energy weapons and crush anything that tries to stand up to you, and there is really not a whole lot your enemy can do about it so long as you can keep your own supply train safe.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ghost_msl on 10 March 2012, 16:59:34
I cannot agree with the critisism of the Dire Wolf C - the lack of ATM 6 ammunition is actually a bit of a feature, since you only need to load a ton of ER and a ton of HE given the somewhat lackluster preformance of the standard rounds. The rest of the arsenal is energy based and slaved to a targeting computer for accuracy (the OS-SSRM 4 is there because of crittical space shortage), add in the jump jets and the ECM suite and I have a hard time finding fault with it.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: God and Davion on 10 March 2012, 17:33:04
I love it. The Dire Wolf Prime is the father of the Marauder. Don't look at me that way. Were are the Marauders coming from? From split Dire Wolves. If a Dire Wolf Prime loses its arm... bingo.. it has the weapons of a Marauder (well, the ER Large are almost the same than a PPC). Given enough time the arm will grow and become a Marauder.  O0And the LRM10 is a Valkyrie waiting to walk alone.

  Jokes aside... it has the weapons of three mechs. It can use a lot of them... it is expensive but has the firepower of two expensive inner sphere mechs.... so it is, in fact, a bargain.  The Prime is a sniper and, well, the A, Hohiro, Prometeus, D, H, Widowmaker.. are the stuff of legends. It deserves its reputation. It is the gun truck of the omnimechs. The Mad Cat looks cool (well.. the Dire Wolf also looks cool) but the Dire Wolf is in the next level of firepower. A 3/5 omnimech with almost no flaws and a truckload of weapons.. who can't love it?

(NO hellions included  :)) :)))
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Southern Coyote on 10 March 2012, 18:24:52
Great article  O0

I'm not a lover of the Dire Wolf in general.  I like it.  I don't love it.  I'd rather have a Savage Yote, Blood Asp, or a Turkey.  But the Dire Wolf is still a scary customer.  I love the configs that reach out and touch you, and Clan ranges are scarier than I.S.  My biggest problem with the Dire Wolf is that it's simply too good on paper and everyone goes for it.  It's a good mech, don't get me wrong.  But there are so many other good assault Omnis out there. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Stormlion1 on 10 March 2012, 18:37:45
Excellent article, always loved the Dire Wolf and especially always enjoyed actually having to deal with heat with a Clan mech. Something alot of newer Clan designs seem to minimize as much as they can. The original Clan bruiser to threaten pretty much everybody on the board. It has its defects, and one or two are huge but its a design that can either make you think or make you just say, well lets go out and shoot things up and give the other guy a bad day. The Prime version would be better with more Heat Sinks, enough to fire all four of its ER Large Lasers without overheating would be nice but it makes you think on strategies to use all its wonderful toys without unduly overheating yourself. The A version is just a killer, and the rest make good use of their equipment for the mayhem there supposed to do.
Plus the new sculpt mini is just plain awesome, thats enough to give the Dire Wolf an A++ in my book, it just looks lethal and everybody usually goes out of their way to kill it when they see it.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Taurevanime on 10 March 2012, 20:38:13
Very nice article Pope.

Only mistake I noticed was "Lord Midget, First Prince, Precentor Martial, Paladin Victor Davion " should be:
"Lord Midget, First Archon-Prince, Precentor Martial, Paladin Victor Ian Steiner-Davion. Because he clearly isn't compensating for his lack of height.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 10 March 2012, 23:05:43
the direwolf is one of my favorite clan assualts. personally i prefer the Alpha and the Charlie configs. the Alpha config is cool running with excellent bracket fire capability. the guass gives you a good long range punch, though you have to be wary of your ammo supply. the triple LPL's make getting close to it nasty, and it can fire those without generating too much heat. and the dual streak6's give you great up close crit seeking without adding too much heat or ammo problems. and the AMS is a great garnish on top of the 19.5 tons  (near maxed) armor.

the Charlie config i like for the ATM's, even if they are secondary weapons. as a coyote player, i like to use ATM configs, but with the Charlie config the main weapons certainly are the twin ERPPC's. i like to load one ton each of standard and HE ammo for the ATM's (maybe 2 tons of HE if i'm expecting lots of close up fighting), since the ER ammo doesn't offer enough punch at range compared to the ERPPC's to make ER-ATM ammo worth it. the OSSSRM4 is odd, but i guess you have to fill space somehow. weapons brackets are definately PPC's at range, ATM's+MPL's up close.


one thing i noticed about Victor Davion's preferred configs (the A and the Prometheus) is that they are basically a Victor battlemech writ large. the Prometheus config especially. both have an AC20, SRM's, and lasers. since Victor Davion piloted a Victor battlemech prior to outreach, him basing his Daishi config on what he was used to makes sense.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Isanova on 11 March 2012, 01:08:59
Praying you feel better Pope, thanks for a kickass article though  O0

As for the Beta config, I have to love anything that can throw an SRM-8 downrange at 27 hexes, and conjoin that with an LB-10X... wow. It's even more dastardly when you realize that ACs actually fire faster than the game turns permit. The idea of using one of these under Solaris-style combat turns, and combining it with some hole-punching lancemates.... the thing seems built for cooperative tactics.

BTW, I love the term "streaking SRMs"
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Demos on 11 March 2012, 02:13:59
[...]Alpha configuration, made famous as being used by Victor Davion in most of the novels is more focused on a long range fight and also plays much cooler than the Prime.[...]
IIRC he never piloted the 'A' in a novel after Outreach.
He used mostly his Prometheus and one time even the 'B' (at the beginning of the civil war).

The Direwolf is a great mech. Don't fit my style when playing clans, but it deserve the nimbus as one of the mightiest mechs.
It's also great as salcvage for the IS. Standard armor and strcuture...
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: RedDevilCG on 11 March 2012, 03:22:51
DW is one of the mechs that I honestly feel is under BV'd.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: LastChanceCav on 11 March 2012, 09:57:34
I love the Dire Wolf for being the Platonic ideal of an assault omnimech (or at least as close as we're likely to get in canon).

Cheers,
LCC
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: blitzy on 11 March 2012, 11:00:08
The only weight saver comes via the Satrfire 300XL under the hood. 

If we're picking on ItsTehPope today for spelling errors, its a Starfire 300XL.

Nothing really to say about the Mech, I mean it is Dire Wolf, what did you expect.  Brutal Firepower somewhat boring to play.  I do agree, an IJJ config for fun would be neat.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Moonsword on 11 March 2012, 11:20:29
Okay, enough picking on the spelling errors, please.

Personally, I've never been that impressed by the Dire Wolf in the sense that it's never made much of an impression on me.  It's big, it's ugly, it's slow, and it's powerful.  There's not much else to say about the base chassis aside from the generous critical availability.  Some of the configurations are interesting.  The Prime is one of exactly three 'Mechs I've seen that actually make me respect the Ultra/5 (the others being the Jupiter and the Wolverine II).  Other than that, the sheer fun of hosing someone down with a pair of HAG 40s on the D, and the Kitchen Sink X, none of them really stand out that much in my mind to leave firm impressions.  I've never really used the design that much, though.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: blitzy on 11 March 2012, 11:55:16
Woot  The wolverine II.  Love that mech, shame its not produced anymore  :'(
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 11 March 2012, 12:02:41
That said, I am somewhat disappointed we have not gotten any canon iJJ variants because as backwards as it seems, the 100 ton weight class is actually the optimal point for a 3/5/5 XLE 'Mech and the thought of a Dire Wolf running down a heavy in urban combat makes me smile.

Could you explain that, please? By my understanding, an 85-ton 3/5/5 unit is far superior to a 100-tonner doing the same, so I'm just wondering if I'm missing something.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Southern Coyote on 11 March 2012, 12:25:58
Woot  The wolverine II.  Love that mech, shame its not produced anymore  :'(
You aint the only one.  If it was, I'd run a full company of those beasts.

Still, picking from 3050 omnis, the Dire Wolf would've been my last choice. The Warhawk or the Executioner would've been preferable.  Still, it's a decent mech. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: misterpants on 11 March 2012, 12:39:36
IIRC he never piloted the 'A' in a novel after Outreach.
He used mostly his Prometheus and one time even the 'B' (at the beginning of the civil war).

The Direwolf is a great mech. Don't fit my style when playing clans, but it deserve the nimbus as one of the mightiest mechs.
It's also great as salcvage for the IS. Standard armor and strcuture...

The descriptions of his Dire Wolf in Grave Covenant and Prince of Havoc match the A config.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ian Sharpe on 11 March 2012, 12:49:50
The Dire Wolf, specifically the A config, was my first encounter with Clantech.  I had previously had a nasty shock facing a Highlander 732(gauss rifle?  what's that?) and so my medium-heavy Cappy company was ordered to take the hill the Dire Wolf was standing on.  The trio of LPLs was awful.  That was the start of my respect for it.  I don't use them very often, as they're a little slower than I like in a Clan Mech, and I prefer the Highlander IIC for aesthetics anyway, but as a Jag player, I've gotten excellent mileage out of them for Trials and straight assaults on IS units. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Moonsword on 11 March 2012, 13:07:49
The thing that stands out to me about the A isn't the ranged firepower.  It's the endurance, something a 'Mech like a Jupiter or a Bane 3 just doesn't have.  That thing's not going to stop firing for a long, long time unless you beat it to death.

EDIT: Please do not post custom designs outside the Fan Designs area.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Diplominator on 11 March 2012, 13:31:18
Could you explain that, please? By my understanding, an 85-ton 3/5/5 unit is far superior to a 100-tonner doing the same, so I'm just wondering if I'm missing something.

It's not much, but a 100-tonner gets 54.5 tons of weapons, heat sinks, and armor, while the 85-tonner only gets 54. Coupled with more internal heat sinks, more internal structure, a higher armor cap, and better physical attacks, it's definitely superior. Apparently gaining fifteen tons overall is enough to offset going from ten to twenty tons of jump jets.

I could definitely see the IS Clans making variants like that, too. For one thing, you can't do it on a Turkina. For another, when you're never getting any more Dire Wolves, you'd best make the ones you've got tougher to hit.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 11 March 2012, 13:59:00
Ah, ok. See, I'm not sure that .5 tons and extra internal structure is worth investint 15 tons. Actually, I'm sure it's not.

Beyond that, going with what canon designs offer - and the Dire Wolf is one of those - the Savage Coyote has it beat. Once the iJJ are mounted, the Coyote has 5 tons more pod space. Yes, lower armour, 1 less heat sink, but going by with what we are given, it can mount more guns, making it scarier IMO.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 11 March 2012, 14:21:17
In as much as I do value speed and manuver, and I do love my Stormcrows and Crimson Languars and the like, I still love the Dire Wolf and I still rank it amoung the mechs I consider to be the 'best.'  Yes, its unimaginitive.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and there was little need to mess with the pattern established back in TRO25 with the Awesome, Stalker and Atlas, from which the Dire Wolf draws in verring mesures its inspiration.

When it comes to wading in, I find it tends not to be too big a problem.  In part, this is because of the Dire Wolf's tendancy to long range, which means it need only wade up to the edge of an engagment can it can deliver power on the levels a medium mech can at close range.  If you've got a veriant with accuracy enhancment (A,C,H,etc) you don't even lose out for your long ranged TNs, and there's really fairly little reason to get in anyone's face if you don't want to (though ironicly of the list I offered I do prefer the C and H in closer ranges and I feel they work well there).  In part perhaps, its because I tend to match my Dire Wolves with Stormcrows and Mad Dogs and whatever so that I can actualy execute tactics around the Dire Wolf and ward off flanking attacks and such; I don't frown on assualts, but I do tend to frown on thouse who make use of nothing else.

As far as the veriants go, I don't think I actualy dislike any of them, though I'll admit the X is bourder line (the whole point of ATMs is so that you can do the role of both LRMs and SRMs, so why use all three types, and streaks as well to make four?!)  Yes, the B is problematic, and to a lesser extent the Prime, but I still like them.

I am in the camp that places the Dire Wolf C at or near the top of best mech lists.  Its rather hard to defend, since I do admit that on paper it seems to be less impressive than many others one can look at, but in many, many experiances with it it has not ever let me down in a meaningful way and on quite a few occasions outperformed even the high expectations that its monumental BV and hype have given it.  At range, two TCed PPCs and ATMs give it an elegant, ballanced attack with accuracy, hole punching and crit seeking.  No, its not as much as some other assualts (its only better than a Hellbringer or Adder by the ATMs) but its got sinks to spare, it jumps, and it's got armor to out last a rane dual.  But, when its up against an opponet that can match its power at range, it has the option to close in and bring its MPLs to bare, while still keeping its PPCs in the game and switching its ATMs to HE rounds, and become a very powerful brawler nearly on par with the S.  This split personality means that it can tussle with any mech in some way or another and have some method of being competitive.  Yes, its more of a dualist than a specalist, but its an omni so it can be a specalist the next day if you need it to be.

There's more, but I'll come back to it.

Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Diplominator on 11 March 2012, 14:36:13
No, that's true. An unpodded Savage Coyote is something like seven million C-Bills less than an unpodded Dire Wolf. Hopefully 3067 Unabridged comes with some goodies in that regard, although I can't see any IS Clans using it except maybe the Wolves.  To be fair, though, I'd still prefer an IJJ Dire Wolf. The Savage Coyote only has 3.5 more tons to play with (the extra heat sink on the Dire Wolf totally counts because good IJJ designs tend to be energy-heavy), and the Dire Wolf can take a full salvo from a Hellstar and still have more armor than the Savage Coyote.

That does point out an oft-overlooked characteristic of the Dire Wolf, actually. Most people focus on the firepower, since there's a lot of it, but unlike a lot of Omnis it doesn't compromise firepower to do it. It has near-maximum armor, arranged fairly intelligently.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: rlbell on 11 March 2012, 14:50:12
The problem some Clan players have with the Dire Wolf can be summed up in a simple phrase:

It feels like a Spheroid assault, not a Clan assault.



The problem is that the payload of a 4/6 assault goes down when you go from 95t to 100t. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 11 March 2012, 15:06:39
That does point out an oft-overlooked characteristic of the Dire Wolf, actually. Most people focus on the firepower, since there's a lot of it, but unlike a lot of Omnis it doesn't compromise firepower to do it. It has near-maximum armor, arranged fairly intelligently.

True, just like on the Atlas. This goes back to points made earlier in the thread: in terms of mobility and armour, the Atlas and Dire Wolf are identical. Offensively, the Dire Wolf is... offensive.

I share your high hopes for 67u!
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: E. Icaza on 11 March 2012, 18:02:02
I've never cared for it and usually leave it alone in favor of a Warhawk or a Gargoyle, since I'd like to actually make it to the battlefield before the fight is over.  That said, my favored configuration is the maligned Beta configuration when I have to take one of them. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Neufeld on 12 March 2012, 04:47:39
Some data on the Dire Wolf.

Here is how the average damage at full alpha varies over range (note that heat is not considered, so ...):
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV    D3  D6  D9 D12 D15 D18 D21 D24
Daishi U                       100 3360 106 106 106  58  30  30  30   0
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  97  97  92  92  64  50  30   0
Daishi D                       100 3403  92  92  76  76  50  41  41  41
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  88  88  88  88  60  60  60  40
Daishi C                       100 3610  87  87  77  68  39  39  39   9
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  86  86  86  78  50  50  20  20
Daishi W                       100 2951  85  85  80  80  37  37  37  10
Daishi S                       100 2985  85  81  81  81  10  10   0   0
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  77  77  72  72  60  60  30   0
Daishi X                       100 2645  74  75  70  49  45  45  21   9
Daishi H                       100 2992  71  69  69  69  62  30  30   0
Daishi B                       100 2609  70  70  65  65  51  51  41  11
Daishi A                       100 2855  69  69  69  69  45  45  15   0
Also, the U uses SRT, so its values are not accurate for neither land nor water.

Second, here is a more detailed breakdown of damage capacity at range 18:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Wpns/turns of fire
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  60 56/44 3   lrm10:1/12 uac5:2/20 erll:4
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  60 46/46 3   erppc:1 lpl:3 gr:1/16
Daishi B                       100 2609  51 40/30 3   erppc:2 uac2:4/22 lb10:1/20
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  50 54/46 3   lpl:3 erll:2
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  50 50/50 3   erppc:2 lpl:2
Daishi X                       100 2645  45 26/30 3   uac10:1/20 lrm15:1/8 atm6:1/30 lpl:1 lb5:1/40
Daishi A                       100 2855  45 31/42 3   lpl:3 gr:1/24
Daishi D                       100 3403  41 16/30 3   hag40:2/15
Daishi C                       100 3610  39 38/46 3j  erppc:2 atm6:2/10
Daishi W                       100 2951  37 19/40 3   lrm20:1/12 gr:1/32 erll:1
Daishi H                       100 2992  30 2/40  3   gr:2/16
Daishi U                       100 3360  30 30/32 3j  erppc:2
Daishi S                       100 2985  10 10/40 3j  lpl:1

The Hohiro config stands out here, being tied for first place, and heat-neutral when standing still.

Same thing at range 6:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Dam Heat  Mov Wpns/turns of fire
Daishi U                       100 3360 106 70/32 3j  erppc:2 mpl:4 srt6:6/10
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041  97 76/50 3   erppc:2 lpl:2 erml:2 ersl:1 uac20:1/10
Daishi D                       100 3403  92 28/30 3   ssrm6:1/15 mpl:2 ersl:1 hag40:2/15
Daishi Prime                   100 2712  88 72/44 3   lrm10:1/12 mpl:4 uac5:2/20 erll:4
Daishi C                       100 3610  87 54/46 3j  ssrm4os:1 erppc:2 mpl:4 atm6:2/10
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900  86 72/46 3   lpl:3 srm6:1/15 erll:2 uac20:1/10
Daishi W                       100 2951  85 43/40 3   lrm20:1/12 mpl:2 ersl:1 gr:1/32 erll:1 uac20:1/10
Daishi S                       100 2985  81 39/40 3j  ssrm4:2/12 lb20:1/20 mpl:5 lpl:1
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048  77 50/46 3   ssrm6:1/15 erppc:1 lpl:3 ersl:1 gr:1/16
Daishi X                       100 2645  75 37/30 3   uac10:1/20 ssrm2:1/50 lrm15:1/8 atm6:1/30 lpl:1 hml:1 srm4:1/25 lb5:1/40
Daishi B                       100 2609  70 50/30 3   erppc:2 mpl:2 uac2:4/22 ersl:1 lb10:1/20
Daishi A                       100 2855  69 35/42 3   ssrm6:2/15 lpl:3 gr:1/24
Daishi H                       100 2992  69 42/40 3   mpl:1 gr:2/16 hll:2

This table shows how scary the D is. While the Widowmaker config has higher potential damage, the D is heat neutral. (and the U does not count.)

Finally, number of headcappers:
Code: [Select]
Name                          Tons BV   Cap Mov Armr TC Weapons/turns of fire
Daishi H                       100 2992   4 3    99% X  gr:2/16 hll:2
Daishi Widowmaker              100 3041   3 3    99%    erppc:2 uac20:1/10
Daishi B                       100 2609   2 3    99%    erppc:2
Daishi C                       100 3610   2 3j   99% X  erppc:2
Daishi Hohiro                  100 3048   2 3    99%    erppc:1 gr:1/16
Daishi U                       100 3360   2 3j   99% X  erppc:2
Daishi W                       100 2951   2 3    99%    gr:1/32 uac20:1/10
Daishi A                       100 2855   1 3    99%    gr:1/24
Daishi Prometheus              100 2900   1 3    99%    uac20:1/10
Daishi S                       100 2985   1 3j   99%    lb20:1/20

While the H is quite lackluster in overall damage, it has four headcappers and is quite cool running.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ian Sharpe on 12 March 2012, 06:20:29
The thing that stands out to me about the A isn't the ranged firepower.  It's the endurance, something a 'Mech like a Jupiter or a Bane 3 just doesn't have.  That thing's not going to stop firing for a long, long time unless you beat it to death.

Its not just the endurance, though; against SW tech, its the range and accuracy of the triple LPLs in conjunction with the other weapons.  It can pump out max damage every turn and not care one bit about heat.  At this stage, I consider it undergunned, but for my first game against Clantech it wasn't nice at all.  The Streak 6s were a nasty shock too.  If both hit, forcing a PSR AND having 12 possible crits is not pleasant. 
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: wantec on 12 March 2012, 09:51:22
The Hotel Configuration (Authors note: At this point I stopped and wondered how many there were left to do and was dismayed) moves to use paired heavy large lasers and gauss rifles, one per arm.  The rifles are fed by 4 tons of ammo.  Backup weapons consist of an ER Small and a medium pulse.  The heavy larges and gauss rifles are boosted by a massive 7 ton Tarcomp in the right torso.  It can fire the primary battery and run every turn and be heat neutral.  Not seeing any obvious candidates for improvement, maybe adding some more guass ammo via removing the pulse laser.
I can think of a way to improve it (and I'm sure others have thought of it too), drop the HLLs, the MPL, and 3 DHS for a pair of ERPPCs (and a 1 ton, 1crit size increase in the TC). Dual headcappers, no heat issues and a TC.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Martius on 12 March 2012, 10:27:57
Better but not a H config anymore.  :D



Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 12 March 2012, 11:12:37
One of the intresting things about some of the 'lesser' Dire Wolves is that their BV is actualy rather reasonable.  It was a lot worse under BV1, when the Prime and B cost less than most Summoners and Timber Wolves, but given what you get there are still some pretty good values out there.  The H, for example, offers four heat neutral head cappers with a TC for under three grand.  Adding PPCs would cost you a squad of high end BA or half a light mech in BV.  The Prime and B still cost about the same as good heavies.  Once BV is done away with, we'll see if Summoners don't become more attractive on a cost basis, but as it is most of the under 3k choices look pretty nice.

More over, we can see looking back on this thread here that the Dire Wolf (and many mechs like it to be fair) to get a lot of disrespect.  "They don't take any skill."  "They're the exclusive choice of munchkins and powergamers and six year olds."  "I wouldn't take a Dire Wolf if it were armed with watter canons and I were on fire." (Well, you get the idea.)  But, when you look at the B, the H, the X, and some of the others depending on your point of view, you're hardly taking a dream mech.  Massed AC2s?  Sky high over heats?  Heavy lasers?  Every difrent sort of missiles?  Yes, they're Dire Wolves, which means they are the best Clan slow assualt omni to have (lots of qualifiers there) but they're hardly muched out min/maxed mechs, which makes them more fun to play and more fun to play against.  And given how many Dire Wolves there are, we can afford some crazy ones.

Unrelated note, the table below leaves out ultra AC double taps (or at least does them inconsistantly, since they seem to be there averaged out for the B but not the Widowmaker, W, or Promethius) and seems to have some of the missile damage calculated wrong, at least if "max possible damage" is the goal, and not 'average' or 'expected' damage.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Neufeld on 12 March 2012, 12:06:07
Unrelated note, the table below leaves out ultra AC double taps (or at least does them inconsistantly, since they seem to be there averaged out for the B but not the Widowmaker, W, or Promethius) and seems to have some of the missile damage calculated wrong, at least if "max possible damage" is the goal, and not 'average' or 'expected' damage.

Strange. It is supposed to be average damage. Maybe there is something wrong in my code?
I get 28.33 average damage for the UAC/20s, 14.17 for UAC/10s, 7.08 for UAC/5s, and 2.83 UAC/2s.
6.31 for LRM-10, 12.69 for LRM-20, 11.5 for LRM-15 with ArtIV.
30.72 for HAG-40 at close range, 14.33 for ATM-6 at close range.

Daishi B:
2x ERPPC = 30
2x MPL = 14
4x UAC/2 = 11
ERSL = 5
LB10 = 10
--> 70

Daishi Prometheus:
3xLPL = 30
SRM6 = 8
2xERLL = 20
UAC/20 = 28
--> 86

Daishi Widowmaker:
2x ERPPC = 30
2x LPL = 20
2x ERML = 14
ERSL = 5
UAC/20 = 28
--> 97

Daishi W:
LRM20 = 12.69
2x MPL = 14
ERSL = 5
GR = 15
ERLL = 10
UAC/20 = 28.33
--> 85
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 12 March 2012, 15:50:28
If you want average expected damage, you're fine.  But if you want:

Here is how the max possible damage varies over range
....

...then you might throw some people (like me)

For most Dire Wolves, I know the weapons by heart, so I can do a rough total quickly, but I don't tend to bother with averages (I never get average rolls, after all) so its harder to check on the fly.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Neufeld on 13 March 2012, 07:09:16
If you want average expected damage, you're fine.  But if you want:

...then you might throw some people (like me)

For most Dire Wolves, I know the weapons by heart, so I can do a rough total quickly, but I don't tend to bother with averages (I never get average rolls, after all) so its harder to check on the fly.

Ah, that explains the issue. I corrected my post.

Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: StCptMara on 13 March 2012, 09:54:31
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Diablo48 on 13 March 2012, 12:11:29
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

I am very much with you on this.  I just looked through my custom configurations, and only 4 of 20 use the base 15 sinks which all have unusual reasons that keep them from having the pod space for more heat.  One of them is a twin Arrow IV platform, one mounts a quartet of LB 2-X ACs, and the other two mount 20 tons of iJJs.  I am not counting the one configuration I filled exclusively with lvl 1 pods to see what would happen because I was considering extra DHS to be banned for that design.

Quote
However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.

Honestly, I can see the Dire Wolf chewing through both of the IS assaults given the right pilots and equipment.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: misterpants on 13 March 2012, 12:42:05
Ah, the Dire Wolf...I have a player in my group who took inspiration from the LRM Bane.
But, over all, the thing is a good design. I do not like the PLACEMENT of the 3 out of
engine heat sinks(I would have put 2 in the legs, 1 in a torso, so I could always benefit
from puddle jumping), and am not terribly fond of the weapons being so focused into the
arms. That said..they are a beast of a 'Mech. Only assault 'mech I would choose over a Dire Wolf
would be a Blood Kite.

Personally, I think the reason the Dire Wolf has those 15 fixed sinks, with 3 out of the engine is
the same reason when I am designing something, I will stick a piece of fixed equipment in:
When doing configurations, they probably kept coming up with needing more heat sinks, and
so decided to put the fewest heat sinks they kept putting in into a fixed loadout.

However, I have yet to see someone get a Dire Wolf into a position where, if it was not able to
fight its way out, short of a lucky gauss/Heavy PPC/AC-20 to the head, it wasn't able to leave
whatever it was fighting against HURTING. Even other assaults are going to know they were
in a fight. An Executioner or Gargoyle have a good chance, as does a Warhawk, but they HAVE
to use their superior mobility. This is probably why the Dire Wolf's arms are where most of its
weapons are: the wider fire arcs. As God and Davion pointed out: the Prime has the firepower
of a Marauder in each arm. Of Inner Sphere 'mechs...A Sunder has the best chance, but not many
others in a one-on-one fight...which is a good thing the Inner Sphere does not do one-on-one.
I would still take two assaults against a Dire Wolf, minimum, if I was an Inner Sphere commander,
though.

A Sunder?  ???  I must be missing something here.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 13 March 2012, 13:47:46
Well, it is the only IS omni with a canon Clan tech veriant, so it might have the best chance to win by that metric.  I'd pick the Raptor as the best to take, but only because it can run away effectively (the Owens is nominaly faster, but its never going to be the best at anything in my mind).

The Dire Wolf's base chassis isn't much better than anything else, IS XL tech asside.  I know players who actualy prefer the SFE Hauptman's base to the Dire Wolf or Turkina or Savage Coyote objectively, one for one.  But, you can fill a Hauptman full of Clan tech weapons if you want on your own time in your own custom situations, Dire Wolves come full of Clan tech right off the lot, and no amount of clever design and good tactics can overcome 50.5 tons of the best sort of guns avalable (assuming there's no bad tactics to deminish it).  You just can't make an IS mech that can do what a Clan tech assualt mech like the Dire Wolf can do.  Clan GRs are better, Clan PPCs are a lot better, Clan lasers are better, Clan ACs are better, Clan missiles are wildly better.  You can pack on more heatsinks, meaning more space and dissapation avalable for the larger amount of lighter, more powerful guns. 

Something like a Hauptman or a Templar might have more thought put into the design.  SFE, or all high tech components, or more speed, or whatever.  Even the celestials with their new engine and gyro types and tricky new weapons can't pull enough tricks out of their tool box to make up for the simple fact of quantity, quantity and more quantity that the ultimate assualt can bring to the table.  There are a few non-omni mechs like the Bain 3, Hellstar, Marauder II Bounty Hunter and a few others that are tweeked for their specific load outs that can compeat for the title of king of assualts with a pretty good shot at winning it, but they're all Clan tech, and none of them can be so many difrent sorts of things on demand.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: StCptMara on 13 March 2012, 20:27:09
A Sunder?  ???  I must be missing something here.

Maneuverability. It would be a hard fight, did not say it would be easy, but, one on one, I would,
if forced to take an IS Assault 'mech, prefer to to take a Sunder since the marginal speed boost
will allow me to, assuming I can win initiative, cut off fire arcs, and, in general have tactical control.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 14 March 2012, 09:27:38
Not a Templar, who's more modern configurations would open up its options?  Or an Avatar, which has a better R veriant, or the Blackhawk KU, which is quicker and can jump into the Dire Wolf's rear arc?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 14 March 2012, 10:22:22
I'm pretty sure the Sunder is the second time this thread has turned to MechWarrior 3. Back in that game and going with set variants, the Annihilator was obviously a special-case juggernaut. Thus, the Sunder was the absolute top dog for the Inner Sphere and really quite a mean bastich.

So: Daishi B and Sunder ftw! :D
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Beukeboom Fan on 14 March 2012, 11:59:22
Maneuverability. It would be a hard fight, did not say it would be easy, but, one on one, I would,
if forced to take an IS Assault 'mech, prefer to to take a Sunder since the marginal speed boost
will allow me to, assuming I can win initiative, cut off fire arcs, and, in general have tactical control.

In a 4/6 mech, how are you going to survive to get close enough to cut off fire arcs or take advantage of cover when you lose initiative?   

Above is with the understanding that the Dire Wolf will probably be about double your BV.  I'd think the "better" alternative as the I/S would be running a Devestator and hoping your get lucky - but that's just my $.02.

Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Matti on 14 March 2012, 15:48:12
Beta configuration is bizzare.  That's all there is to it.  Only mounting the base 30 heat sinks, the left arm mounts two PPCs, 2 pulse lasers of the medium variety, the Right arm mounting an LBX10.  The torso guns are a quad set of UAC2’s in paired sets on the side torsos.  Each pair shares a ton of ammo.  And a superfluous ER Small Laser in the CT.  Its safe to say that the cooling array is lacking, but not terribly so, but man....the heat sink juggling is not fun.  I’m not quite sure what I’d change on here, but that UAC mess needs to go.
Could UAC/2 battery be used to motive crit vehicles at distance? Hover/VTOL recon units should beware... LB 10-X is clearly for crit seeking. Hmm... 4x UAC/2 firing Ultra backed by LB 10-X... I'll try it when (if ever) I play with Dire Wolf.


Quote
Rather than following the idea that assaults should be reasonably fast but still strong enough to break holes open in the enemy lines that the heavy cav designs can exploit, and that warfare should be limited in scope to conserve resources and remain civilized, the Dire Wolf flaunts everything. It is a slow juggernaut of a 'Mech designed to beat down the opposition, plodding forward slowly and laying waste to all in its path. Its style of destruction is glacial, not lightning: grinding forward inevitably, crushing everything in front of it.
And Smoke Jaguars have used it as such. Have you read about Jaguars terrorizing town in their occupation zone with Dire Wolf blasting random buildings?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Moonsword on 14 March 2012, 15:55:37
You can certainly use an Ultra/2 that way - the Bane does to reasonably good effect - but if you're talking design changes, it's not the best way to go.  LB 2-Xs are going to be more practical for critting things because they can generate the clusters without the perils and annoyances of going Ultra (jams, heat, and ammo expenditure).  And they're more accurate doing it, especially against airborne units.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Diablo48 on 14 March 2012, 20:13:21
You can certainly use an Ultra/2 that way - the Bane does to reasonably good effect - but if you're talking design changes, it's not the best way to go.  LB 2-Xs are going to be more practical for critting things because they can generate the clusters without the perils and annoyances of going Ultra (jams, heat, and ammo expenditure).  And they're more accurate doing it, especially against airborne units.

Agreed.  Quad 2-X's in something as tough as a Dire Wolf essentially declares the battlefield off limits for anything in the air.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: cold1 on 14 March 2012, 21:27:35
In a 4/6 mech, how are you going to survive to get close enough to cut off fire arcs or take advantage of cover when you lose initiative?   

Above is with the understanding that the Dire Wolf will probably be about double your BV.  I'd think the "better" alternative as the I/S would be running a Devestator and hoping your get lucky - but that's just my $.02.

4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Beukeboom Fan on 15 March 2012, 09:28:28
4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.

I think that the best movement Sunder gets though is 4/6/3 with the D configuration (2xPPC, LB20x).   I just don't see how that weapons package is going to be the optimum solution against a Dire Wolf.  Because if the terrain is tight - the DW is probably going S configuration (3/5/3, LB-20, LPL, 5xMPL, 2x STR4, 2xMG) which is going to get REAL ugly for the Sunder really quickly.  (Again - pretty much any mech is going to come up light against a DW, just not understanding why the Sunder would be a really good option.)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 15 March 2012, 11:23:04
4/6/4 helps tremendously if there is some terrain.  But your options are limited.  Multiple head cappers, JJs, and a maybe a TC on a 4/6/4 assault is a good start if you can't call in orbital bombardment.

A mech I'd been thinking that comes close to this is the Templar A, but its got only the ER PPC and Ultra 10 (TCed in this case) backed by the SSRM6.  If you had enough pilot to make up the BV difrence you might be able to win on aimed shots, but that's pretty much your only hope given that even the Dire Wolf B can throw out 30% more damge with ease.

As far as Sunders go, even the Clan LPL mounting R is outdone by several Dire Wolves, so I might, if I was being cheeky, pick the C, which if it can get the drop on a Dire Wolf from three hexes in at least can deliver power on comperable levels and just might be able to land some telling blows.

None of the Hauptmenn are quite as specalized as I like.  The B is my traditional go to, but it (and the Prime) fairly closely recalls the W and Widowmaker and Promethius, which also pair an AC20 with other ranged weapons, and they're all vastly better.  The E is one I'm only seeing now as I do reserch for this, and I do feel like I like it, but its got nothing near Dire Wolf power levels.

The crazy thing is, these mechs arn't that much lower in BV.  The Haupty B comes in at 2208, just 504 points below the Dire Wolf Prime and only 30% less than the Widowmaker that would eat it for lunch.  The top Sunders tend to come in just around 2k (the R is 2462) and most of the Templars are in that same range.  The best Hauptmann models are at nearly 2.4k, less than a BA point's difrence to a Dire Wolf B or Prime.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ghost_msl on 15 March 2012, 15:47:49
A mech I'd been thinking that comes close to this is the Templar A, but its got only the ER PPC and Ultra 10 (TCed in this case) backed by the SSRM6.  If you had enough pilot to make up the BV difrence you might be able to win on aimed shots, but that's pretty much your only hope given that even the Dire Wolf B can throw out 30% more damge with ease.

As far as Sunders go, even the Clan LPL mounting R is outdone by several Dire Wolves, so I might, if I was being cheeky, pick the C, which if it can get the drop on a Dire Wolf from three hexes in at least can deliver power on comperable levels and just might be able to land some telling blows.

None of the Hauptmenn are quite as specalized as I like.  The B is my traditional go to, but it (and the Prime) fairly closely recalls the W and Widowmaker and Promethius, which also pair an AC20 with other ranged weapons, and they're all vastly better.  The E is one I'm only seeing now as I do reserch for this, and I do feel like I like it, but its got nothing near Dire Wolf power levels.

The crazy thing is, these mechs arn't that much lower in BV.  The Haupty B comes in at 2208, just 504 points below the Dire Wolf Prime and only 30% less than the Widowmaker that would eat it for lunch.  The top Sunders tend to come in just around 2k (the R is 2462) and most of the Templars are in that same range.  The best Hauptmann models are at nearly 2.4k, less than a BA point's difrence to a Dire Wolf B or Prime.

I would happily take a Dire Wolf Prime up against any of the standard configurations of the Hauptmann - the reach of a DW Prime is the major feature in my opinion and the key to using it, none of the Hauptman configurations can match it.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Iron Mongoose on 16 March 2012, 00:23:18
The sad thing is, given thouse MPLs, even getting your Hauptmann into AC20 range isn't going to do you any favors against a Dire Wolf Prime.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: RedDevilCG on 16 March 2012, 17:41:22
And flippable arms.  If it didn't have the flippable arms, it would at least be back-stabbable.....
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Cidwm on 17 March 2012, 01:18:54
Reading this article has made me realiize that the Hauptmann should have been a Innersphere Dire Wolf. Seeing as how the Innersphere can manufacture everything on the Dire Wolf besides the Clan tech engine and heatsinks I see no reason why there are no Dire Wolf clones using Innersphere Engines and heatsinks. With the DW fearsome reputation Coventry Metal works should have built Dire Wolfs instead of Hauptmanns. With an IS XL engine plus using only 12 double heatsinks you could have 53.5 tons of pod space or you can use a 300 Light Engine and have 48.5 tons of pod space. [blank]
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: jymset on 17 March 2012, 04:07:12
The Hauptmann preceded the invention of the Light Engine.

And given the alternatives of Standard and XL Engine, very many people will agree that the Hauptmann's biggest positive feature is its Standard Engine.

Few will argue that in a stand-up fight, the Hauptmann will come just ahead of one of the other IS Assault Omnis. That said, many of the "solutions" to combating the Daishi in this thread have revolved around a 4/6 or faster unit - this is simply because few 3/5 'Mechs could ever go up against a Daishi with any hope of winning, so mobility has to be a factor.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Moonsword on 17 March 2012, 06:13:12
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.  All of my real picks for trying to beat a Dire Wolf at its own game are Clan units.  A Devastator isn't too far off the list, though.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Headshot on 17 March 2012, 06:37:58
Go read the TRO again, the Hauptmann is CMWs answer to the Dire Wolf:
Quote
The Hauptmann, the Lyran Alliance's first OmniMech design, is based on captured Clan Daishis.

As to why they used a standard engine (and dropped five tons), no idea. The question even comes up in the fluff.

Regarding the Dire Wolf, the chassis is about as basic as it can get. Average speed for its weight, standard structure, maxed standard armor (i consider armor effectively maxed when its within a quarter ton from maximum), and a Clantech XL engine for maximized payload.
And what a payload. There are dropships with less firepower!
Any article about the Dire Wolf isn't really about the Mech. Its about what insane things you can do with over 50 tons of Clantech weapons!
This is probably the only Mech in the game where the additional fixed DHS don't bother me at all. You'll need more anyway to support that many weapons.
I'd have liked to place them myself in the chassis, but hey, the world is a cruel place.
In a way, the Dire Wolf even has too much podspace. Thanks to the reduced size of Clan guns and DHS, you can usually just fit everything you want inside an Omni.
Not here. Someone said the DW acts more like an IS Assault. Well, its the same with designing good configs for it, the way you have to juggle weight and crit space. Its almost an art.
And the canon configs cut quite a few corners there. Some can overheat beyond insanity, and others almost cheat. Single Shot Streak SRM4? (SSSSRM4? *snicker*). Thats desperate...

Beating it at its own game? With TC aimed pulse gone?
Bane 3, Hellstar, and tons of luck.
With IS tech, maybe the Fafnir, or my LFE Devastator. And luck. Lots of it...
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Cidwm on 17 March 2012, 09:22:31
Quote
Go read the TRO again, the Hauptmann is CMWs answer to the Dire Wolf:

I've have many times. I've owned TRO 3060 since it first came out. The Hauptmann has never shown to me that it is the answer to a Dire Wolf. CMW would have been better off replicating Dire Wolfs.

Quote
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.

True, but it's better then nothing and better then a Hauptmann.


Now as for the Dire Wolf it's self, 50.5 tons of pod space mounted on a very heavy armored chassis. What more needs to be said? You can mount more firepower then a typical Innersphere Lance from 3025 era.  8)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Headshot on 17 March 2012, 09:43:43
Well, noone's ever said it was a good answer... :D
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Cidwm on 17 March 2012, 11:40:13
Well, noone's ever said it was a good answer... :D

 :)) :D
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: misterpants on 17 March 2012, 13:37:00
Yeah.  And doing it with IS hardware just makes the whole thing worse.  All of my real picks for trying to beat a Dire Wolf at its own game are Clan units.  A Devastator isn't too far off the list, though.

I'm tempted to go with a Thunder Hawk and hope I win the headcapping probability curve race. Yes, not a statistically reliable choice, I know.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Decoy on 17 March 2012, 14:35:11
One of the intresting things about some of the 'lesser' Dire Wolves is that their BV is actualy rather reasonable.  It was a lot worse under BV1, when the Prime and B cost less than most Summoners and Timber Wolves, but given what you get there are still some pretty good values out there.  The H, for example, offers four heat neutral head cappers with a TC for under three grand.  Adding PPCs would cost you a squad of high end BA or half a light mech in BV.  The Prime and B still cost about the same as good heavies.  Once BV is done away with, we'll see if Summoners don't become more attractive on a cost basis, but as it is most of the under 3k choices look pretty nice.


I need to add my agreement to this. When I was with the Horses in the FGC, the H was my go to assault. It never let me down in that roll. My Custom Direwolf....got head shot whenever I brought it out ><
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: grimlock1 on 09 May 2018, 00:51:32
On a whim, I pulled up Sarna and SSW and set about building the Dire Wolves Phelan and Natasha used when they tested out in Blood Legacy.  Lo and behold!  There are some issues.   The Widowmaker LRM variant comes in a half ton light, but fully crit packed.

Phelan's Lone Wolf also comes in a half ton light, but with 6 free crits. So replacing that OS SRM 6 with a stock model and a ton of ammo works trivially.

Shouldn't be surprised, there were plenty of issues in that fight, like Vlad's "Executioner."
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Nightsong on 09 May 2018, 07:29:13
Someone mentioned a Raptor. Would love to see a BV balanced Raptor R vs Dire Wolf fight. Sure, the Raptor comes up about 300% mass and over half of that being guns, but the movement mod would allow it to dance at long range where it only worries about very lucky shots from ERLLs or the autocannons if you’re running the Prime.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Empyrus on 09 May 2018, 08:13:08
Someone mentioned a Raptor. Would love to see a BV balanced Raptor R vs Dire Wolf fight. Sure, the Raptor comes up about 300% mass and over half of that being guns, but the movement mod would allow it to dance at long range where it only worries about very lucky shots from ERLLs or the autocannons if you’re running the Prime.
Unfortunately speed doesn't guarantee protection forever. You don't need but one or two hits at the Raptor and it is either gone or crippled.
With a quick look, closest BV balance would be, Daishi Prime vs Raptor R, 4/3 vs 1/0, with some 40 BV difference for the Raptor.

At 25 hexes, the Raptor has 2 ERLL, while the Daishi has 4. The Raptor can keep firing one ERLL infinitely, and the other every other turn, while the Daishi can do the same with three, adding fourth every other turn. If the Raptor comes to 21 hexes, the Daishi can add the Ultras and LRM-10 to the barrage. If the Raptor attempts backstabbing... well, the Daishi can flip its arms, with no important loss in firepower.

While the Raptor will undoubtedly hit consistently, it will be difficult to keep avoiding the Daishi's return fire long enough. The Daishi will be looking at 11s consistently, not factoring terrain in. Depending what kind of terrain it is, the Raptor may end up slowing too much.
In open terrain, i think the Daishi will win. An ERLL will tear through the Raptor's armor so quickly, and it is just a matter of time before one hits the Raptor. Obviously the Raptor can consistently hit, and anytime it fires two ERLL, it can knock the Daishi down, which can be disastrous. But doing that from run will heat it up and slow it down, something it can ill afford.
In terrain with small forest patches, the Raptor will win likely. If the Raptor doesn't go into forests but can skirt around them to avoid speed loss, the to-hit penalties for the Daishi can become so high it cannot hit while the Raptor can. Might be a long fight though.
In confined terrain, i'm thinking the Daishi has advantage, because the Raptor loses so much speed, or at worst the Daishi can pick a spot where the Raptor has no choice but get closer, where the Daishi can bring in so many weapons it can and will hit the Raptor sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Nightsong on 09 May 2018, 08:53:37
Of course. On the other hand, it would be an amusing fight, and one that, barring an early lucky shot, would either guarantee the Raptor pilot as a bondsman, or one very upset Clanner.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JPArbiter on 11 May 2018, 14:55:12
Has anyone done a serious statistical comparison of the Dire Wolf vs the Tomahawk II. On paper it looks like the newer mech achieves the impossible and Improved big sexy DW, but i always felt underwhelmed by its configurations
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: SteveUK on 12 May 2018, 07:36:45
Hmm, now I feel the need to try this out in MM,
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 12 May 2018, 10:27:47
Has anyone done a serious statistical comparison of the Dire Wolf vs the Tomahawk II. On paper it looks like the newer mech achieves the impossible and Improved big sexy DW, but i always felt underwhelmed by its configurations
The configs of the Tomahawk II seem actively hamper it against most Dire Wolf configs, as with the exception of the prototype Tomahawk it seems to lack solid punches in half of its configurations.

Edit; As for the prototype Tomahawk, it's a serious disappointment that they didn't use the same configs on the production model.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: gyedid on 15 May 2018, 02:58:19
I've have many times. I've owned TRO 3060 since it first came out. The Hauptmann has never shown to me that it is the answer to a Dire Wolf. CMW would have been better off replicating Dire Wolfs.

Just not possible with IS tech.  You use an XL engine, there's all the baggage that comes with that.  Use a light engine and you sacrifice some pod space for the higher survivability and slightly lower cost.  And whatever pod space you DO have gets eaten up much faster with heavier, bulkier IS equipment, plus Clan DHS can be put in places the IS versions can't.  You're pretty well limited to each config being centred around at least two heavy ballistic and/or missile weapons.

cheers,

Gabe
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Sabelkatten on 20 May 2018, 11:00:30
An IS version (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=19366.msg435348#msg435348) doesn't come out as badly as one might think.

It's arguably not a very useful idea, thought. 3/5 speed and XL engine means it's rather slow and/or fragile for anything except fire support.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Empyrus on 20 May 2018, 14:59:08
I have a Dire Wolf-inspired IS 'Mech somewhere in my files that is pretty powerful. Required liberal use of advanced and experimental tech but still.
EDIT Aand it ain't that great actually. Slapping Clan weapons on it, even if the worse kind (like ER pulse laser), its BV raises well over what IS tech can do at its best without resorting to things that cause BV bloat like Interface Cockpits or special armors.

Of course, slapping Clan weapons on it would increase its firepower by 10-50% easily. The Clan weapons are just so good. Replicating or approximating a chassis with IS tech is easy enough.
Replacing the Hauptmann Prime's weapons with Clan-equivalents increases its BV by over 10%, and that's before using the leftover weight for something. (Cooling's gonna suffer if one crams any more weapons in though.)

As it is, i regard the Hauptmann good enough approximation to the Dire Wolf. Not intended to be a direct copy but merely inspired, and it is done well for most part.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JPArbiter on 20 May 2018, 15:07:23
One could argue the Tenshi is a Inner Sphere Daishi equivalent.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Empyrus on 20 May 2018, 15:11:28
Perhaps. In many ways the Tenshi chassis is improvement over the Hauptmann, if one accepts LFE vulnerability.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 May 2018, 16:01:14
The Tenshi also has an Endo Composite chassis, so it's not quite as good at packing really crit-intensive weapons, though I don't think that's really an issue since it looks like the only thing that it outright can't equip is an HRG/iHGR, and that's not really a weapon system the Combine has any interest in.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Greatclub on 09 June 2018, 20:22:12
I'm looking at them, and I'm thinking that the Hohiro is superior to the Widowmaker.

Yeah, that UAC-20 will wreck anything it hits, but the odds of it getting a chance to hit anything aren't good; it's more an area-denial weapon than anything else, at the Daishi's speed.

The Hohiro, on the other hand, has a fifth long range weapon, and it's one that will hit consistently at medium range.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 June 2018, 20:23:39
The Widowmaker was always more cool than optimized.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: gyedid on 10 June 2018, 01:00:58
The Widowmaker was always more cool than optimized.

You have to remember which pilot it was intended for.  >:D

Cheers, Gabe
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 10 June 2018, 01:12:48
My personal ride is a custom Dire Wolf. Got twin er LLs over twin er MLs. Other arm is a UAC20. Torsos have a HLL, LRM20 and a Streak SRM6. I call her Carona cause she gets bloody hot lol.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Luciora on 10 June 2018, 01:17:22
It just occurred to me, each arm of the Direwolf is the equivalent of a Marauder.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 June 2018, 10:23:20
Yup.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: gyedid on 10 June 2018, 11:48:36
My personal ride is a custom Dire Wolf. Got twin we LLs over twin we MLs. Other arm is a UAC20. Torsos have a HLL, LRM20 and a Streak SRM6. I call her Carona cause she gets bloody hot lol.

"we" lasers...?

cheers, Gabe
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 June 2018, 12:07:51
I'm guessing they tried to type "ER" but their fingers were one key off.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 10 June 2018, 12:36:26
"we" lasers...?

cheers, Gabe

Damn phone that's supposed to be er
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 June 2018, 15:38:18
I'm looking at them, and I'm thinking that the Hohiro is superior to the Widowmaker.

Yeah, that UAC-20 will wreck anything it hits, but the odds of it getting a chance to hit anything aren't good; it's more an area-denial weapon than anything else, at the Daishi's speed.

Originally the Dire Wolf Widowmaker was built to be the maximum damage output . . . before we had things like HE ATMs or some of the tech that came after.  The title was taken by the ATM heavy Turkina IIRC.

And yeah . . . I have used the UAC/20 on the Widowmaker before.  I prefer the Dire Wolf Prime simply because I am a ranged player . . . and I enjoyed showing a Dire Wolf A (read cLPL) lover his folly . . . 2 Dire Wolf A vs a Dire Wolf Prime & Supernova.  It did not go as he expected.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 June 2018, 18:10:44
Clan LPLs are too bulky for their damage output when fighting other assault mechs.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 June 2018, 20:12:18
I prefer the cERLL as I mentioned, but that is what I heard the purpose of the design was- pack the highest damage output into a single mech.  Considering it does 109 if it lands everything on a double tap . . . Turkina D beats it now with 4 ATM12s & 2 ERML for a max output of 158 if it all lands, which is harder b/c of the missiles.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 June 2018, 20:21:28
The Turkey is also doing it in 5 point clusters, so it's got to do more sanding on average to punch through enemy armor.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 12 June 2018, 11:58:36
Not really the Dire Wolf's LL are her only weapons that punch above 5. Bad die rolls can easily put her in the same spot. The Turkina D's big problem is ammo dependence. She is either going to run out or have some blow up on her.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 June 2018, 12:03:46
 . . . he was talking about the Widowmaker, which is 2 ERPPCs, 2 ERLL, a UAC/20, pair of ERML and a ERSL . . . last is all that does 5.  The Prime is four ERLL 10 point hits and four MPLs for 7 point hits.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 12 June 2018, 15:11:59
Got heat and damage backwards in my head but yeah a Widowmaker will be much more satifing to drive then a Turk D.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 15 June 2018, 20:04:56
and I enjoyed showing a Dire Wolf A (read cLPL) lover his folly
I mean, the A variant is certainly my favorite Dire, but it's not because it triple-mounts LPLs (Even if that is partially a factor).

I prefer Dire Wolf A because it's capable of rounding out an assault lance with a cooler-running 100-tonner that doesn't notably specialize in anything, but performs reasonably well across the board. (That said, I prefer replacing two tons of AMS ammo with an SRM-4 and a ton of Smoke ammo.)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 June 2018, 21:44:53
Smoke rounds?  On a Clan mech?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 15 June 2018, 21:50:53
Smoke rounds?  On a Clan mech?
If they cannot shoot me through smoke, they are surely a lesser warrior, quiaff?

I prefer IS anyways, though, so the games I tend to play only have one or two Clan mechs per side maximum when it's a company per.

Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 15 June 2018, 23:39:23
I'm looking at them, and I'm thinking that the Hohiro is superior to the Widowmaker.

Yeah, that UAC-20 will wreck anything it hits, but the odds of it getting a chance to hit anything aren't good; it's more an area-denial weapon than anything else, at the Daishi's speed.

The Hohiro, on the other hand, has a fifth long range weapon, and it's one that will hit consistently at medium range.

Your not the only one.  The Hohiro is up there best designed pod configuration of ANY chassis in existence.  It just screams I'm going to eat you from 20 hexes.


The Widowmaker was always more cool than optimized.
Not that its UN-optimized either.  LOL
Drop 1 arm for the AC & twin ERML's for 54 potential damage.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 15 June 2018, 23:41:02
2 Dire Wolf A vs a Dire Wolf Prime & Supernova.  It did not go as he expected.
Clearly that player does not know how to RUN forward every turn

Clan LPLs are too bulky for their damage output when fighting other assault mechs.
Agreed
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 15 June 2018, 23:42:20
I mean, the A variant is certainly my favorite Dire, but it's not because it triple-mounts LPLs (Even if that is partially a factor).

I prefer Dire Wolf A because it's capable of rounding out an assault lance with a cooler-running 100-tonner that doesn't notably specialize in anything, but performs reasonably well across the board. (That said, I prefer replacing two tons of AMS ammo with an SRM-4 and a ton of Smoke ammo.)

Agreed.  I'm not a fan of LPL's.  I like the A for its ammo reserves & generalist feel.   You just point it at something & don't stop moving forward, it only gets more powerful the closer it gets.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 June 2018, 10:12:26
Even then, two free rounds of fire . . . first round is 70 potential damage, second free round is 80 potential damage provided you moved right by being 21 hexes.  Rolls being 9s with standard Clan pilots.  I also want to say he had them staggered 4 hexes apart . . . so 1 entered range before the other and had to endure more hits before the 2nd one reached its range.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 16 June 2018, 11:04:22
Entering in a line certainly doesn't bode well for tactics for sure.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Precentor Scorpio on 24 June 2018, 17:33:12
I think the Dire Wolf's timeline supports an idea that the DIre Wolf was created to help the Wolf Dragoons more then creating a new assault much for the Wolf Touman
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Scotty on 24 June 2018, 18:07:38
I think the Dire Wolf's timeline supports an idea that the DIre Wolf was created to help the Wolf Dragoons more then creating a new assault much for the Wolf Touman

...so?  It's a cute theory, but I don't see how that meaningfully impacts anything.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 24 June 2018, 22:22:04
Especially sincere Dragoons came to the inner sphere without any of te mechs.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: gyedid on 24 June 2018, 23:15:01
Especially sincere Dragoons came to the inner sphere without any of te mechs.

And them actually fielding one would've blown their cover right away.  Not just a 100 design that had never been seen in the IS (like the Imp and Annihilator) but one that used tech superior even to Star League tech and was of destructive capabilities even Atlas pilots couldn't imagine.

cheers,

Gabe
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Starfox1701 on 25 June 2018, 01:29:44
And them actually fielding one would've blown their cover right away.  Not just a 100 design that had never been seen in the IS (like the Imp and Annihilator) but one that used tech superior even to Star League tech and was of destructive capabilities even Atlas pilots couldn't imagine.

cheers,

Gabe

Granted my point is that blood of Kerensky makes it clear all the Dragoons omnis where built on Outreach not brought with them.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Darkwing on 25 June 2018, 09:54:21
...so?  It's a cute theory, but I don't see how that meaningfully impacts anything.

I think it speaks to the nature of the Dragoon Mission more than anything. You don't send a recon team in with the design specs and capabilities of your nastiest Assault Mech. The fact that they could manufacture them when the time is right demonstrates the Warden intentions and "secret orders" they were given.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 25 June 2018, 10:04:50
They weren’t given the specs and new orders until the 3019 supply run, IIRC.  In 3005, they were just recon.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 25 June 2018, 23:32:02
They might have had specs besides the D-Wolf, (not being created till 3010 iirc), but yes, in their last run when they met with Kerlin Ward they were given the most up to date specs/intel at the time which then would have included the D-Wolf.

The instructions were pretty clear, prepare the IS to facing the eventual invasion.

Which I have to say, they did a very piss poor job of doing.

Basically they didn't do a damn thing till after the invasion started.

But that is a bit off topic I suppose.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 June 2018, 10:33:02
Well . . . IMO you have to get into things not really covered . . . ROM vs Wolfnet battles to protect the Helm Core and other tech spread- also helps explain the development of the LFE and their support of Battle Magic's R&D which brought MML.  How much they might have supported the development of 'new' mechs like the Hatchetman, Merlin and Wolfhound.  Outreach as a training center and helping increase merc numbers which grows the troop base.

Could they have done more without the secret getting out?  Probably . . . but by that time Jaime was tired and enmeshed in Sphere politics.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: grimlock1 on 12 September 2018, 09:59:14
Your not the only one.  The Hohiro is up there best designed pod configuration of ANY chassis in existence.  It just screams I'm going to eat you from 20 hexes.

Not that its UN-optimized either.  LOL
Drop 1 arm for the AC & twin ERML's for 54 potential damage.

With 60 points of damage in 10 and 15 point chunks, 23 DHS and 2 and a half minutes worth of ammo, you don't have to scream anything.  You just show up and do you thing.  The other fellow will do all the screaming.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 16 January 2019, 21:28:46
Are there any opinions of the Dire Wolf E?  There's 1 LBX-AC/10 and 4 medium pulse lasers per arm with a Streak LRM-10 and CASE II in the torsos where ammo is stored.  There's also a Watchdog CEWS mounted on the 'mech.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 January 2019, 22:04:51
Looks to be a boring but effective design for short-to-mid range combat.  Heat management is okay- you can fire all the lasers and one AC while standing and remain neutral.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 January 2019, 22:24:26
Vehicle killer, which for MWDA was needed . . .
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 17 January 2019, 09:22:26
Yeah, it's a little bland for my tastes, but I'm also a sucker for any design packing twin LB-10X, so I'd use the hell out of it. I just wouldn't feel good about myself for doing it.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 January 2019, 11:00:20
Ditto for the double LB-10X . . . I love the Nightstar 9FC for that reason.  Its also got the Watchdog which sets it apart . . . and the toss up over the Streak LRM rack.  Personally I would rather drop 2 MPL each arm for a ERLL . . .

But honestly, 8 MPL on something that slow is not like you are taking a RFL IIC.  As a Star Commander (ugh, to be in charge of a star that slow!) that had a Dire Wolf, I am already going to put one of the weaker gunners in that mech and as long as I am not fighting on a Kansas wheatfield, its something I would be comfortable fielding if we expect to be swarmed by garrison level armor supported by battle armor.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 17 January 2019, 11:50:21
Can't argue the laser swap (and also can't help but note that it brings it a little closer to feeling like a DW Prime). The Streak rack I feel like is another attempt to keep the original Dire Wolf look intact while trying to get some newer tech shoehorned in there- and not in a good way. Streak LRMs can be fun, but a 10 just doesn't really give you the power one would like for the weight. My immediate knee-jerk is 'SRM racks!' as a response, but with twin LB-10X adding more crit-seeking really won't help much, I suppose.

But yeah, autocannon and four laser ports in each arm, 10-rack of missiles on the shoulders... it's not a Prime at all, but it's trying to re-use the artwork at least.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: grimlock1 on 17 January 2019, 12:28:14
How much ammo does it carry for the LB-10's? Unless it has about 4 tons of autocannon ammo, I'm getting a bit uncomfortable about this beast.  It's murder on vehicles, sure but it's a bit under gunned against mechs at range. Like the rest have said, it needs some ER large lasers to do some hole punching.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: grimlock1 on 17 January 2019, 12:34:03
My novels are in a box somewhere, but did the various princes use the Wolf's Dragoon model for their graduation trials in Blood Legacy?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 17 January 2019, 13:39:55
How much ammo does it carry for the LB-10's? Unless it has about 4 tons of autocannon ammo, I'm getting a bit uncomfortable about this beast.  It's murder on vehicles, sure but it's a bit under gunned against mechs at range. Like the rest have said, it needs some ER large lasers to do some hole punching.

It's got two tons of ammo per cannon, and one ton of ammo for the streak launcher.

My novels are in a box somewhere, but did the various princes use the Wolf's Dragoon model for their graduation trials in Blood Legacy?

I don't believe so.  I'm pretty sure they were using the A variant- Stackpole was pretty fond of writing everything as using pulse lasers and Gauss rifles.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 January 2019, 13:43:40
Sounds right- IIRC he put a slug through Sunny's cockpit to Stackpole the engine with two mechs next to it.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Tymers Realm on 17 January 2019, 14:26:47
While in some ways inspired by the Echo Configuration, my Constant Variant (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=49827.msg1384666#msg1384666) of the Dire Wolf might be worth looking at.I created the Constant back when the Clans were first introduced, so no CASE II or advanced ECM or what not. Just continuous use of the LB 10s and LRM with bracketing Energy Weapons fire.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 17 January 2019, 19:40:24
That's great, but this isn't the place to discuss a fan config.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 17 January 2019, 23:02:38
I don't believe so.  I'm pretty sure they were using the A variant- Stackpole was pretty fond of writing everything as using pulse lasers and Gauss rifles.

They used a custom configuration (or at least Kai did) that... I think... inspired the W configuration. At the time the details of what was done and could be done with omnimechs was still a bit fuzzy, so the description in the book might not mesh with later stats.

The A variant direwolf was used by Victor by the third book in the trilogy and remained his ride for the duration of Stackpole's run (despite the existence of the Direwolf Prometheus configuration, that was a later creation, and I guess was used by Victor during the civil war years)

I don't think any of the other direwolves used on Outreach were ever described in detail, nor was Hohiro's (at least not until the record sheet was created).
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 January 2019, 00:24:19
The Daishi Prometheus configuration was actually given a record sheet by FASA shortly after Victor started using the mech, and also appeared in the CCG.  It was just never used in the fiction until Loren Coleman took over as the writer for the main plot after Stackpole quit.  The same thing happened with Natasha Kerensky and Widowmaker.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 January 2019, 14:24:03
It's got two tons of ammo per cannon, and one ton of ammo for the streak launcher.
Okay so there's plenty of hole punching and sandblasting for the cannons. And 12 rounds of NEVER MISSiles is plenty. :-)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 January 2019, 15:33:25
Yeah, it's not like one of the 3050 configurations with one ton of ammo.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 22 January 2019, 11:25:01
Yeah, it's not like one of the 3050 configurations with one ton of ammo.

Summoner fans are wailing in agony...
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 January 2019, 12:08:33
Summoner fans are wailing in agony...

You know, that mech could really use another ton of LRM ammo, don't you think?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 12:32:00
Or the Gauss Rifle needs a 2nd ton rather than a SRM launcher . . .
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 22 January 2019, 12:36:44
Or two ATM-9s instead of a 12 and a 6. Yeah, I'm in agony here.

Say this for Dire Wolves, but even when they DO  make bad choices in ammo layout they at least cover it up with layers of other weapons to compensate usually.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 13:08:10
Does that mean the Summoner needs-

Quirk:  Bad Logistics
     If the ammo can be mismanaged, it will be on this mech.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 January 2019, 13:36:57
I think the two Thor variants that take the cake for bad ammo choices are the D (there's never a reason for a full ton of MG ammo) and the M (Yeah, let's add a second ton of ammo for the Streak SRM pod, because there's somehow a chance that it might actually be able to spend the 20-25 rounds of being in streak range of someone necessary to fire off the first ton of streak ammo and still be combat-functional).
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 13:53:20
Huh?  IIRC the A has the same problem with the Gauss Rifle, 8 shots while the SRM has 2t of ammo.  I cannot remember if the C has too much Streak ammo.  Then JHB pointed out the E, which has a ATM6 and ATM12.  I think the H, HH and Q all have ammo problems but I would have to recheck their sheets- H & Q too many SRM launchers vs ammo, and the HH suffering like the A.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 January 2019, 14:05:12
Edit: moving my response to the Summoner MotW thread. https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=23192.60
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 14:10:39
Apologies, I was looking at the G when I said that . . . the difference between it and the Q by stats is not much.

But yeah, the Dire Wolf may place the ammo in a unfortunate position but it has the right amounts for what it does carry.

Kind of surprised we never got a IJJ version that was somewhat like the Marauder IIs.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 22 January 2019, 14:40:40
You're talking like a jumping PPC-boat kind of thing? I mean the C kind of covers that, but with a lot of extraneous weirdness, I admit.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 14:44:33
What I was sort of thinking was the MAD-6D with its screwy (IMO) short range stuff . . .

So IJJ, 2 Heavy Large Lasers, 2 ER Med Pulse Lasers, maybe a HAG . . . or a plasma cannon for fun.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 22 January 2019, 14:53:48
What I was sort of thinking was the MAD-6D with its screwy (IMO) short range stuff . . .

So IJJ, 2 Heavy Large Lasers, 2 ER Med Pulse Lasers, maybe a HAG . . . or a plasma cannon for fun.

Intriguing idea actually. Give it a build in the design section, I'd love to see how it shakes down with the HAG on board. (We only have the one HAG-version right now, but it's a delight...)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 January 2019, 15:57:46
Alright, when I get home I will give it a whirl . . . the -6D is just so weird IMO since the pop-guns outrange the 'heavy' main guns.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 22 January 2019, 22:42:35
Does that mean the Summoner needs-

Quirk:  Bad Logistics
     If the ammo can be mismanaged, it will be on this mech.
I've become a huge fan of the G configuration because while I'm not a fan of standard SRMs on clan units, at least the G is an example of a proper way to build a mech.
2 big beamers & a boatload of critseekers for when the holes have been opened up.


I think the two Thor variants that take the cake for bad ammo choices are the D (there's never a reason for a full ton of MG ammo)
While I don't disagree about MG ammo,  I'm not sure an energy weapon monstrosity like the Thor-D ever gets any claim to mismanaging ammo,  like,  EVER.  hehe.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 23 January 2019, 00:40:13
Here you are JHB . . . I am going to have to mess with it in MM.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64165.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64165.0)
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: keethrax on 09 July 2020, 19:51:40

Which I have to say, they did a very piss poor job of doing.

Basically they didn't do a damn thing till after the invasion started.

But that is a bit off topic I suppose.

In fairness Outbound Light probably ruined whatever timeline they thought they were working with.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: RevenVrake on 10 July 2020, 09:56:49
I'm kinda surprised we never saw a Z Society Variant of the Dire Wolf. Did they just never get the chance to use one? And if so, what would it pack aside from the necessary Nova CEWS?
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Ghost_msl on 10 July 2020, 10:36:32
I'm kinda surprised we never saw a Z Society Variant of the Dire Wolf. Did they just never get the chance to use one? And if so, what would it pack aside from the necessary Nova CEWS?

Hmm... iATMs seems like a no brainer - lots of room on the DW for launchers and ammo.
Maybe some TC'ed long ranged beams/ballistics.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Hellraiser on 10 July 2020, 11:39:29
The DireWolf-E mentioned above I think fills the roll of Z since they said it has a CEWS on it.
   Or is that not the same thing?

If not then I agree, a double rack of ATM12s in the torsos would be a good start followed by some beamers in the arms.   Maybe something Timberwolf-ish like Over-Under ERLL/MPL.

Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 10 July 2020, 13:56:39
The DireWolf-E mentioned above I think fills the roll of Z since they said it has a CEWS on it.
   Or is that not the same thing?

The Dire Wolf E carries Watchdog CEWS, which is not the same thing as the Society’s Nova CEWS.  But they use the same tonnage and the Nova CEWS uses one less crit, so the switch is easy.

That said, the Society had the Turkina Z with its 48 iATM tubes, Nova CEWS, and jump jets.  So I’m not sure what else a Dire Wolf Z would bring to the table.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 July 2020, 18:09:02
Probably iATMs backed up by improvised heavy lasers on a targeting computer.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 July 2020, 20:31:26
That said, the Society had the Turkina Z with its 48 iATM tubes, Nova CEWS, and jump jets.  So I’m not sure what else a Dire Wolf Z would bring to the table.
No tonnage wasted on jump jets.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 11 July 2020, 14:28:52
No tonnage wasted on jump jets.
Jump Jets and IATMs make a good pair-if your pilot can actually hit anything while jumping; 48 HE IATM missiles to the rear arc is not a good day in anyone's book. In fact, jump jets are the only thing I would change about things like the Osteon Prime.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 July 2020, 14:37:33
Its 3/5 . . . and all 3 are Omnis, there is no need to waste tonnage on fixed JJs.  Outside of a custom Omni refit, no Turkina will ever be 3/5/5 . . . a Dire Wolf can do that if needed.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 11 July 2020, 14:55:04
As fixed equipment, it's not ideal, but it's not nearly as hamstringing on the Turkina Z as you are making it out to be. Even less so for the Osteon and Dire Wolf. Are the extra two hexes of mobility you'd get with IJJ nice? Sure, but 3 is just fine in a pinch. Hell, 3 hexes is the short range for HE rounds anyways-and it's just one less than what you need to get out of minimum range for both of the other main munition types.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 July 2020, 15:59:14
Of course, in all three instances you're more likely to be using the Nova CEWS to get short range modifiers while still out at long range.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Greatclub on 11 July 2020, 16:04:45
Funny enough, the osteon was built as a spotter. It was supposed to lumber forward an be challenged by Zell idiots while the mechs that can run away bombard them from long range with ER ATM.

The forces we use on the tabletop are not typical, remember; mediums are supposed to be the most common class unless you're the 10th lyran, assault guards or coyotes.


edit - it probably doesn't matter. The society is dead and I don't see them revisited soon. Unless the scorps have adopted the tech since we last saw them, the nova is as historical as the primitive mech.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 July 2020, 17:35:25
As fixed equipment, it's not ideal, but it's not nearly as hamstringing on the Turkina Z as you are making it out to be. Even less so for the Osteon and Dire Wolf. Are the extra two hexes of mobility you'd get with IJJ nice? Sure, but 3 is just fine in a pinch. Hell, 3 hexes is the short range for HE rounds anyways-and it's just one less than what you need to get out of minimum range for both of the other main munition types.

But that is the difference between the Dire Wolf and Turkina at a base- the Dire Wolf does not waste tonnage on fixed jump jets.  If the tactical situation will warrant it, they can be equipped and because they are not fixed- if really needed you can put IJJs.  It is too bad we do not get one with IJJ that I am aware of, it can carry some pretty big hammers for moving around that fast.

Because otherwise the Dire Wolf could duplicate (and improve if not needing JJ) any configuration of the Turkey.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 July 2020, 17:48:20
Funny enough, the osteon was built as a spotter. It was supposed to lumber forward an be challenged by Zell idiots while the mechs that can run away bombard them from long range with ER ATM.

Eh, the Cephalus was the primary spotter.  The Osteon was just an excessively durable assault.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 July 2020, 17:54:23
I am with MLO4H on this one, not sure how a plodder that has fire support written all over it was never supposed to be the shooter to the Ceph's spotter.

The fact that I can get a Osteon . . .D?- 4 LPL and a Ceph A (?) linked for under 5k is crazy . . . especially when they work over 3 linked Blakists.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Caedis Animus on 11 July 2020, 17:56:05
But that is the difference between the Dire Wolf and Turkina at a base- the Dire Wolf does not waste tonnage on fixed jump jets.  If the tactical situation will warrant it, they can be equipped and because they are not fixed- if really needed you can put IJJs.  It is too bad we do not get one with IJJ that I am aware of, it can carry some pretty big hammers for moving around that fast.

Because otherwise the Dire Wolf could duplicate (and improve if not needing JJ) any configuration of the Turkey.

I've already told you that I don't agree with fixed jump jets, so I really don't understand why you felt the need to point it out. I just don't think it's that big of a deal in the case of a specific config because it works in the config's favor. I've tried refitting it with IJJs and frankly, the config's better off with standards, and considering how much IJJs weigh for 95 and 100 ton units, the Dire's better off using standards too. The IJJ mounting option is just not useful in cases like this touted one.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Greatclub on 11 July 2020, 18:23:06
Eh, the Cephalus was the primary spotter.  The Osteon was just an excessively durable assault.

Wog from Paul in the osteon article
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=20031.60

I know that isn't how anyone plays, but it is the fluff. Also, the ijj pulse version makes an excellent spotter
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 July 2020, 19:36:02
Paul says they set out to make 3 Society mechs, a spotter, a support mech, and an all-around unit.  The Pariah/Septicemia was the all-around unit.  The other two are the Osteon and Cephalus, and the Ceph is definitely no support mech.
Title: Re: MOTW - Dire Wolf
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 July 2020, 21:40:21
Well . . . if you want to say EWar support mech, maybe.