BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Ramseti on 23 July 2017, 12:02:16
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So, can we finally have an "HG is at it again!" meltdown without people telling us we're being paranoid? Cause, not for nothing, between this TRO not having these units, and IWM's Wasp debacle and scrubbing the Valk from the coming soon list, it really, really looks like HG is at it again.
Soooo, there's this: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/washington/wawdce/2:2017cv00327/242820
Yup :(
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Soooo, there's this: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/washington/wawdce/2:2017cv00327/242820
Yup :(
******. Well, there we are, folks. Good find, Ramseti.
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And, "I'm not at liberty to discuss any ongoing legal matters at this time."
Next.
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It's just a fountain of profanity here.
So much hate for patent trolls.
Sorry you guys have to deal with these parasites.
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Looking at the filing, I'm not sure CGL or Topps are part of a case, but it's still probably best to keep their heads down.
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I've forwarded the information to a particular copyright attorney for review and commentary. If or when he decides to give his views, I'll post a link. Until then, let's remember the forum rules and just focus on the product at hand.
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And, "I'm not at liberty to discuss any ongoing legal matters at this time."
Next.
I think it's good that it's finally a known issue, to get rid of all the random conjecture. I also don't think anyone here is going to try to go down that road (wrt to pesting you), or at least I hope not. By now I'm pretty sure we're all in the same boat of understanding what "you" are up against and simply wish <everyone not HG> the best. Ugh, I friggin' hate HG so much.
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Soooo, there's this: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/washington/wawdce/2:2017cv00327/242820
Yup :(
Well, ****** them and the horse they rode in on. Those ****** sucking, shit eating, thrice damned bastards.
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Oooh - Harmony Gold is at it again. Now that's exciting. I mean... we're some 25 years down the line from the last showdown. It'll be interesting to see if HG still has a legal leg to stand on, if they ever had. [watch]
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I think it's good that it's finally a known issue, to get rid of all the random conjecture. I also don't think anyone here is going to try to go down that road (wrt to pesting you), or at least I hope not. By now I'm pretty sure we're all in the same boat of understanding what "you" are up against and simply wish <everyone not HG> the best. Ugh, I friggin' hate HG so much.
This. All I for one wanted was for the penny to drop. Now that we know, all the yammer will hopefully subside (other than the rightful curses upon That Real-Estate-Company-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named and their travesty upon a classic Japanese anime franchise). And all the legal inside baseball is emphatically NOT our business. But like I said, now that we actually KNOW why Speck had to pull the Wasp and why some of the Classics are Unseen again, we can deal with it.
Well, ****** them and the horse they rode in on. Those ****** sucking, shit eating, thrice damned bastards.
Since I gave up that language, I'll let Sharpnel speak for me. These creeps are why I had to shell out over $100 for a copy of "Do You Remember Love" from Japan (all hail Blu-Ray and the more sensible region codes!) because they won't stop their silly little spitting match with the show's creators, Big West and Studio Nue. Now they want to trample over the Classics again? (Insert Sharpnel's response here >:( )
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I needed a pick me up, so I went and re-watched the opening scene from the Game Of Thrones premiere. HG reminds me of the Freys, for some reason.
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I may have to go shopping on steam for some of the other works of Harebrained Schemes and Piranha Games. I suddenly feel compelled to give them money.
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Soooo, there's this: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/washington/wawdce/2:2017cv00327/242820
Yup :(
The disgusting sound that emerged from my mouth frightened the cat and startled my wife
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Well, ****** them and the horse they rode in on. Those ****** sucking, shit eating, thrice damned bastards.
You may have unfairly insulted other "shit eating thrice damned bastards". No one deserves to be associated in a sentence with that company.
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HG..KILLING childhood hobbies and memories one court case at a time.
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"I'm not at liberty to discuss any ongoing legal matters at this time."
Last time I heard that was SEC media days. >:D
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It was a sad day when those Mordor born hellspawn wrecked the Battletech world the first time. Robotech is dead here, so they try to sack Battletech out of spite and money?? Again!!?? I said it once before, but bears repeating. May the fleas of thousand camels descend upon them and their legal team. Oh, and all the ticks too... }:)
Burn you bunch of @&%`*# ~&*($%@#! (insert you favorite curse here)
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Perhaps the mods could rename this thread to make it a little more clear as to its actual topic?
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I like to see HG crushed in the courts, and forced to pay all expenses and lost profits.
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Perhaps the mods could rename this thread to make it a little more clear as to its actual topic?
Splendid idea
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I noticed the filing yesterday while pondering about the missing classics, posted about it on another place but didn't bring it up here except for one PM to another member, wasn't sure if talking about this would be appreciated mods and admins. Evidently the discussion is accepted to an extent now.
So, my thoughts on the case and related stuff. I'm not a lawyer nor an expert, this is all guessing and speculation based on common sense and some googling.
The case, a copyright infringement, names Harebrained Schemes and Piranha Games as plaintiffs, along with "DOES 1-10". It seems the term indicates other defendants may be named later or are not identified for now for some reason; not sure how the US law works. Speculation: Other potential parties include Catalyst Game Labs (obviously), possibly Iron Wind Metals, and perhaps Topps and Microsoft as they own BattleTech in its normal and electronic forms, respectively.
The probable cause are the Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer and Marauder in MechWarrior Online and BattleTech video game. An earlier build of BattleTech featured the Marauder but it is missing from the beta and even the game files, which do include stuff that is not available in the beta itself. Probably removed due to case until it is solved one way or another.
My take for missing classics is that CGL and IWM are taking precautions, whether or not they're involved in the case. No Macross-based 'Mechs in new products, no miniatures on sale for now. Better safe than sorry for now.
Should HG lose the case (even if CGL is not involved), it might be safe for Macross-based 'Mechs to appear again in BattleTech, though their artwork could be a separate matter due to medium. Go figure how lawyers think. Should HG win the case, i bet we'll won't see the Macross-based classics until they get artwork that is completely different beyond any doubt (consider the Reseen, that apparently didn't cause any legal issues).
Evidently non-Macross-based 'Mechs are deemed safe to use for now.
CGL's staff being silent on the matter doesn't mean they're involved, it makes sense not to comment on legal matters of other companies. Never know how comments would be taken by judges, lawyers, attorneys and whoever else.
I can't say i like the situation but i wouldn't waste my time panicking or even hating HG (even if the deserve it). Doesn't change anything, and only causes stress (or, well maybe cursing them is cathartic but don't dwell on it). BattleTech will probably continue regardless, and we've been so long without the classics i don't think there should be problems living without them, even if it is annoying.
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I like to see HG crushed in the courts, and forced to pay all expenses and lost profits.
They got thumped in 2013 when they tried to sue Hasbro over the color of a GI- Joe toy, so we can at least take comfort in knowing that they don't go into these things with a clear head and a cunning legal mind.
(http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2013-07-26-harmonygold.png)
Note: Only the third panel is hyperbole.
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I keep saying the Cronus is a better Wolverine, anyways.
"Kick his ass, Rusty."
- Footloose
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I keep saying the Cronus is a better Wolverine, anyways.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/909/991/48c.jpg)
The Wolverine, however, is not involved in this latest act of legal sabotage. Same with the Locust, Ostscout, Griffin, and Battlemaster
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I like to see HG crushed in the courts, and forced to pay all expenses and lost profits.
I would like to see that also. Maybe start by arguing that HG doesn't have standing as the Japanese companies are the ones that own the images, and then show artist were hired to create original designs.
But that requires the American courts to make sense. Form what I have seen, that can be hit or miss.
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And I wanted to throw more money at them too just for Tactics. This is the quandary of a sci-fi robot drama fan. :(
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Splendid idea
Thank you, kind sir!
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The interesting thing is because Microsoft does still actually own the electronic rights they could easily get drawn into this mess but as I understand it they haven't actually been drawn in yet.
It seems rather unlikely for things to go well for Harmony Gold if Microsoft does get drawn in.
Logically CGL and Topps shouldn't get drawn in at all. If they do, again from a layman's perspective, logically they should be fine and I concur that their caution and silence on the matter are in of themselves not cause for concern.
If logic fails or things go really screwy I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.
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For any one interested you can find the actual filing here:
https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/34e3xggza/washington-western-district-court//
Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
Basically it looks like Harmony Gold said - "they have giant robots, they must be copies, we're going to sue."
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Too bad there aren't any laws against squatting on a property, which is basically what HG has been doing. That Topps and Microsoft could be involved, my fingers crossed for a good outcome on our end. Considering that CGL, HBS, and Piranha had to go through those respective holders to even touch the likes of the Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, et al I imagine that this possibility was discussed at length and various lawyers felt it safe enough to continue.
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For any one interested you can find the actual filing here:
https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/34e3xggza/washington-western-district-court//
Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
Basically it looks like Harmony Gold said - "they have giant robots, they must be copies, we're going to sue."
Unfortunately, that link isn't working for me. However, if they actually made those claims... wow, the judge will kick them out so ****** fast. I mean, that is just insane.
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For any one interested you can find the actual filing here:
https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/34e3xggza/washington-western-district-court//
Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
Basically it looks like Harmony Gold said - "they have giant robots, they must be copies, we're going to sue."
I know I shouldn't be laughing my fool head off right now but I am.
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[copper]
Last thing from me... this is a long-running issue with Battletech. You know it, the mods know it, CGL knows it. Everyone has very strong opinions, and while these forums are a place to express opinions, the rules still apply.
Please keep the conversation clean and civil.
[copper]
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The BattleTech licenses ultimately derive from Microsoft (electronic rights, granted to Piranha Games and Weisman/Harebrained Schemes) and Topps (other BattleTech IP, granted to IMR/CGL). Both Microsoft and Topps should be able to meet Harmony Gold at eye level when it comes to the will and capacity to see a lawsuit through.
My impression about the 1994 lawsuit was that Harmony Gold had much deeper pockets, forcing FASA to accept a settlement deal that may have been worse than what they might ultimately have achieved in court.
These days, I don't think Harmony Gold can win a court case by claiming current MWO or HBS art infringes on their IPs. The Exosquad lawsuit over what basically was a MadCat clone (a lawsuit that FASA lost) shows just how far you can push the envelope here. My money is not on Harmony Gold in this action.
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Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
Basically it looks like Harmony Gold said - "they have giant robots, they must be copies, we're going to sue."
Those three definitely feel tacked on to the point of being nonsensical. Interestingly, it appears that these are the only specific complaints against Harebrained Schemes, with the others being Piranha Games images. I dare say Harmony Gold went after Harebrained Schemes purely due to association, and Catalyst and Iron Wind Metals might have dodged a bullet simply by being a smaller fish in a more niche market.
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"ORDER signed by Clerk William M. McCool granting39 Motion for Default by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. Default entered against InMediaRes Productions, LLC."
So it's over before it began? The case says the Atlas is too similar to Robotech stuff. Does that mean we can't see the Atlas in new products?
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Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
I am not a lawyer, but can't that sink their entire case? The Atlas doesn't look at all like the Armored Veritech and has been in active use for almost a generation.
Also I don't think that HG can show damages.
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"ORDER signed by Clerk William M. McCool granting39 Motion for Default by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. Default entered against InMediaRes Productions, LLC."
I have no idea what those words mean. Why don't lawyers talk like real people?
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I have no idea what those words mean. Why don't lawyers talk like real people?
Because then that wouldn't require the boatloads of special training to become one.
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(http://puu.sh/wRfm9/68add39f95.png)
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So HG defaulted then?
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So the link Irose provided mentions a summons to InMediaRes as a defendant (and Loren Coleman in particular), but they aren't listed as a defendant.
EDIT: Okay, if I'm parsing things correctly, InMediaRes is covered under the Does 1-10 section of the list of defendants, which apparently includes anybody else Harmony Gold can think to sue in relation to this.
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If I'm reading it correctly, CGL didn't send a lawyer, so the judge ruled in default against CGL.
I'm not a lawyer, actual meaning may be entirely different.
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If I'm reading it correctly, CGL didn't send a lawyer, so the judge ruled in default against CGL.
I'm not a lawyer, actual meaning may be entirely different.
Oh, please do not tell me these guys were so unorganized that they didn't get a lawyer.
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Oh boy....
This article is a few years old, but it's the best explanation I've seen of the whole mess:
https://www.google.com/amp/kotaku.com/5990702/why-you-havent-seen-any-new-macross-in-the-west-for-nearly-15-years/amp (https://www.google.com/amp/kotaku.com/5990702/why-you-havent-seen-any-new-macross-in-the-west-for-nearly-15-years/amp)
So basically, the reason HG has been slapping down any and all (even the merest whiffs) of infringement is because if someone were to fight them in court (and get Big West and Taktsunoko on their side) it would be very easy to prove that their claim to a worldwide ownership of the entirety of Macross is an erroneous one. That in fact all they do have is the simple distribution rights to SFDM. (It's also unknown if Taktsunoko even had the right to license the anime to HG in the first place.)
Unfortunately no one has thought it worth fighting HG over it, nor do the Japanese companies seem interested in expanding outside of Japan. So until that happens, HG will continue it's stranglehold on Macross.
(Note: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have anything above a cursory knowledge of the applicable laws. I've just read up a lot on it because I find the case a curious one.
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Oh, please do not tell me these guys were so unorganized that they didn't get a lawyer.
According to the wikipedia link, such rulings are routinely set aside once the defendant gets a lawyer, as long as some defense is mounted.
Oh boy....
This article is a few years old, but it's the best explanation I've seen of the whole mess:
https://www.google.com/amp/kotaku.com/5990702/why-you-havent-seen-any-new-macross-in-the-west-for-nearly-15-years/amp (https://www.google.com/amp/kotaku.com/5990702/why-you-havent-seen-any-new-macross-in-the-west-for-nearly-15-years/amp)
So basically, the reason HG has been slapping down any and all (even the merest whiffs) of infringement is because if someone were to fight them in court (and get Big West and Taktsunoko on their side) it would be very easy to prove that their claim to a worldwide ownership of the entirety of Macross is an erroneous one. That in fact all they do have is the simple distribution rights to SFDM. (It's also unknown if Taktsunoko even had the right to license the anime to HG in the first place.)
Unfortunately no one has thought it worth fighting HG over it, nor do the Japanese companies seem interested in expanding outside of Japan. So until that happens, HG will continue it's stranglehold on Macross.
(Note: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have anything above a cursory knowledge of the applicable laws. I've just read up a lot on it because I find the case a curious one.
I have this childish fantasy that this case will be their downfall.
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I find it curious that HG failed to list Catalyst as a defendant (instead lumping them with the other "John Doe" defendants ("Does 1-10")) while citing them explicitly later in the complaint.
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I find it curious that HG failed to list Catalyst as a defendant (instead lumping them with the other "John Doe" defendants ("Does 1-10")) while citing them explicitly later in the complaint.
Does 1-10 gives them leeway to go after other groups (Iron wind metals might be a target) without being specific immediately.
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I'm really curious as to who the other Does might be. We know that CGL, InRes, and IWM might be involved, but what of the other 7? Topps and Microsoft only bring it to 5.. Would the Artists of said units also be a possibility? Even then thats another two defendents??
What I find extremely laughable though is the inclusion of the MWO Shadow Hawk, Locust, and Atlas. Neither of which is based off of Macross and it can be proven that the Atlas is derived from original artwork that dates back to the FASA days ~30 years ago and the Locust/Shadow Hawk were based off a series HG has zero rights to anyway nor do either of those designs even remotely resemble any current or former Robotech art.
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Jeez.
Seems pretty damn stupid. The new images are not copies, there are enough artistic liberties taken that makes them significantly different.
Makes me think: So, when did Harmony Gold get copyright on stompy robots? Hopefully they review the Hasbro thing and throw this case out of the window. And hopefully this wasn't sat on by Catalyst, Hairbrained, PGI, long enough that this is now a huge problem.
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For any one interested you can find the actual filing here:
https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/34e3xggza/washington-western-district-court//
Apparently HG is pissed because they think the Atlas is a "derivative copy" of the Armored Veritech (i.e. Crusader), the reseen Locust is a copy of the Officer's Pod (aka Marauder) and the reseen Shadow Hawk is a copy of the Destroid Spartan (aka Archer).
Basically it looks like Harmony Gold said - "they have giant robots, they must be copies, we're going to sue."
when you say 'Atlas' can you be specific? you mean the version used in MWO? How the ... does the MWO Atlas even remotely look like the GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie? I will admit this topic is... insightful (and as the mods previously warned, passion-inducing)...
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when you say 'Atlas' can you be specific? you mean the version used in MWO? How the ... does the MWO Atlas even remotely look like the GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie?
It has two arms and two legs. :P
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It has two arms and two legs. :P
Guess that means that the developers of Titanfall might be next #P
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The plaintiff's strategy behind lawsuits is sometimes only peripheral to whether they think they can actually win on the merits of their case. If you go after the right target, you can get what you want without having to deal with a full on trial. I'm guessing HG thinks they see easy prey they can intimidate into a settlement. Or that they're willing to settle for a settlement that costs the defendants less than it costs to defend themselves in trial.
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I like to see HG crushed in the courts, and forced to pay all expenses and lost profits.
Their last lawsuit of this type was dismissed. I guess that's good news.
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I thought the Hasbro suit was settled out of court... but either way I think HG is just harassing Jordan. I guess breaking up his hard #P HG... is like that stalker ex-girlfriend that just won't go away :o (I jest, please don't beat me up with that ban hammer!! ;D )
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I was pissed that the iconic Mech's were excluded, but I am a glass half full guy so here is what I think we should do .............
Start a funding page for the legal defense fund against Harmony Gold. I want our team to literally DESTROY HARMONY GOLD once and for all! I am sick and tired of these hacks returning again and again. WHEN, not if, we DESTROY HARMONY GOLD, and win this battle once and for all then TRO Succession Wars will be re-released with all the missing designs. If you purchased the PDF or Dead Tree copy, and contribute $50 to the legal defense fund, you get the new re-released PDF or Dead Tree copy free when we WIN! This will be our Victory dance! We will dance around the proverbial bon fire with our copies of our new TRO Succession War like stark raving mad lunatics!
I pledge $100 to this quest to DESTROY HARMONY GOLD!
So which one of TPTB will grab this torch and make it happen. Let's lobotomize these Harmony Gold fools and send them packing once and for all!
BATTLETECH FOREVER!
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Guys -
Cool it. CGL's website is NOT the place to assemble pitchfork- or torch-bearing lynch mobs. Further inflammatory posts will result in warnings.
You do not riot in our place, thank you very much.
Worktroll, Ombudsman [copper]
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I am not a lawyer, so I might be off on this thought... but wouldn't it be ironic if the Playmates vs. FASA (MadCat Ripoff...) was one of the legal precedents cited on behalf of the defendants in this case? It would just feel somewhat poetic to me.
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I actually read about this on Battletech International Facebook fan page, pitchforks are welcome there. The UK guys were suppose to bring the torches but showed up with flashlights instead.
I'll keep all my negative thoughts to myself, it's the one bit of nostalgia that makes me way to emotional.
Best of luck to CGL and all those involved in this mess.
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Guys -
Cool it. CGL's website is NOT the place to assemble pitchfork- or torch-bearing lynch mobs. Further inflammatory posts will result in warnings.
You do not riot in our place, thank you very much.
Worktroll, Ombudsman [copper]
This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.
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I thought the Hasbro suit was settled out of court...
The hasbro suit was dismissed with prejudice (so Harmony Gold can't refile), and Hasbro resumed selling the set in question.
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This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.
On the official site of one of the named defendants doesn't seem the best place for that.
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I am in the process of having this case reviewed by an actual copyright attorney. I am also working on a summary of previous legal actions, at least those known publicly, for someone who is interested in doing a commentary video on the current lawsuit and what it could mean for the video game side of things. If or when these people release their thoughts on the matter, I will share them with everyone.
That said, Piranha may be in trouble. While HG's claim that the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk are derivative of Macross machines is laughable, those aren't the main subjects of the lawsuit. The primary models involved are Piranha's versions of the Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Phoenix Hawk. Those machines do resemble the original Macross models quite a bit, and deliberately. Scanning through the documents filed doesn't reveal Harebrained's defense, as far as I can see, but they did demand a trial by jury, which already has a date set: September of 2018. As CGL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of InMediaRes, HG seems to be skipping them to go right for the parent company.
Honestly? This doesn't look great. IMR/CGL may be able to squeak away from this by disassociating themselves from HBS/Piranha (after all, they are different IPs now) and showing that their "Classics" are substantially different from the originals. But HBS/Piranha is playing with fire, and in particular that Archer may come to bite them in the ass.
The bottom line is that this is not an obviously "bad faith" nor a frivolous lawsuit. It is a very serious and real action, and one that the court may very well decide in Harmony Gold's favor. I think HG is jerks, but you cannot ignore their IP rights.
This is not about pitchforks, torch-bearing mobs or riots boss. This is about the community congealing to put a stop to Harmony Gold messing with the Battletech IP once and for all. This can be the Clarion Call for the Battletech Community to stand up as a whole against the bully known as Harmony Gold.
DON'T. I'm going to say this (hopefully) once: taking independent action against Harmony Gold not only opens you up to legal action by them, it also weakens HBS and IMR's defense. This is what the courts are for, and internet vigilantism will not help. Let the professionals do their jobs.
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So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?
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Considering Lucasfilm never sued over the Urbanmech... I mean lets face it. It's R2D2 with legs and guns :o
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So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?
There are a lot of reasons why organizing it here would be the wrong thing to do.
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I am not a lawyer, so I might be off on this thought... but wouldn't it be ironic if the Playmates vs. FASA (MadCat Ripoff...) was one of the legal precedents cited on behalf of the defendants in this case? It would just feel somewhat poetic to me.
That case was dismissed with prejudice, meaning Playmates effectively won. Since the "heavy attack E-frame" never actually made it into production, it was - in the end - not a violation of copyright. In fact, FASA was in the wrong to sue Playmates. Aside from that one toy prototype, their case was extremely weak, and all it did was open FASA to the countersuit that brought in Harmony Gold.
Look, I want to see BattleTech strong and proud. I want to see the Classics on the battlefield. Just look at my avatar! But we must face the facts instead of mindlessly rooting for our "team."
So are you folks saying that fans wanting the company to set up a funding page for the defense of the company that people can contribute to is wrong and borders of vigilantism?
*sigh* I'm not new to the internet. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: no, don't do that, either. If IMR/HBS need money for their defense, let them ask first, or just buy their products.
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The really interesting potential outcome- my dream scenario, if you will, would be for Studio Nue to lean into this with the verdict from Japan saying that they own the Macross rights and Tatsunoku's deal with HG should be voided. That chases off IP Squatting Patent Troll HG from the Macross rights and brings in a far less litigious entity that presumably could be dealt with like adults.
I'm more in favor of people who make things as opposed to 1%ers who got rich by scamming and suing everything in their path.
That said, I've already opined that the day the elderly Mr. Agrama goes to his reward should become a nerd holiday. Perhaps like a Labor day, with an outdoor picnic and lots of beer if weather is appropriate, or a Thanksgiving-esque large meal celebrated with like-minded individuals. If the latter, I'd be in favor of a possible taco-centric meal, because tacos are delicious.
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As Colbosch said, Pirahna may be in trouble about the classics, but in my honest opinion CGL's reseen Marauder and Warhammer look more like the original source (though still clearly different) than the Pirahna equivalent.
I just can't honestly believe that Pirahna, HBS, and CGL didn't or don't have a plan in place to deal with an infamously litigious IP holder, especially as they have clearly invested in getting these produced. I Assumed the new designs had been run past HG's lawyers and had been found to be fine.
We can only cross our fingers and hope: A: that's the case, and B: that that the plan in place is enough to torpedo HG's small army of lawyers.
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It is stated in the claim that PGI sent HG 2 different prototype mock ups of new art and both were rejected and never used. Reading that then one would wonder did the same get done for the others including the art from CGL? Would PGI/CGL use art that HG didn't like if they had prior interactions in 2013? If that was done and there was no issue prior to HBS joins the reseen fun, why then would HG sue unless it is because HBS is owned/run by by Jordan and HG is still pissed about the HG/FASA settlement, that or they just have it out for anything Jordan is working on...
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Honestly? This doesn't look great. IMR/CGL may be able to squeak away from this by disassociating themselves from HBS/Piranha (after all, they are different IPs now) and showing that their "Classics" are substantially different from the originals. But HBS/Piranha is playing with fire, and in particular that Archer may come to bite them in the ass.
Yeah, I cringed at the Archer comparison while reading the brief. Unsure what to make of IMR's involvement besides being roped in as part of the crowd of usual suspects.
Also, it normal for a company in IMR's position to allow a default judgment against them? What does such a judgment actually do? It's not like CM: Mercs and CampOps have been pulled.
I just can't honestly believe that Pirahna, HBS, and CGL didn't or don't have a plan in place to deal with an infamously litigious IP holder, especially as they have clearly invested in getting these produced. I Assumed the new designs had been run past HG's lawyers and had been found to be fine.
That CM: Mercs even saw the light of day with the warhammer on the cover was quite a surprise to me. I'd be floored if they just looked at the designs and said "yup, that'll hold in court. print it."
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I'd be floored if they just looked at the designs and said "yup, that'll hold in court. print it."
My thought exactly... Fingers and toes crossed.
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FASA did not, to my knowledge, lose the Exosquad (MadCat) lawsuit because it didn't go into production, but because the court positively ruled that the similarities between that Exosquad thingy and a FASA MadCat weren't close enough for the action to succeed - though the court then also ruled that Playmates had pushed the envelope to the absolute brink, so FASA was ruled to have acted in good faith versus Playmates deliberately seeing what they could get away with, and FASA thus didn't have to bear Playmates' costs.
Still, I believe HG is facing an uphill battle against Piranha Games in the light of that earlier ruling.
As far as Jordan Weisman and Harebrained Schemes are concerned, it may be worth noting that Harmony Gold is basing their action on breach of contract allegations here, the contract in question being the secret settlement agreement from 1996. They can only bring this to bear on Weisman and HBS, but Piranha is unlikely to be affected by that contract in any shape or form.
I believe Harmony Gold somehow mixed up the images in their action against Weisman and HBS. They just don't make sense as-is. I suppose this can be remedied in court, though, by presenting new or additional images.
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FASA did not, to my knowledge, lose the Exosquad (MadCat) lawsuit because it didn't go into production, but because the court positively ruled that the similarities between that Exosquad thingy and a FASA MadCat weren't close enough for the action to succeed - though the court then also ruled that Playmates had pushed the envelope to the absolute brink, so FASA was ruled to have acted in good faith versus Playmates deliberately seeing what they could get away with, and FASA thus didn't have to bear Playmates' costs.
No, not quite. FASA sued Playmates, but the "heavy attack E-frame" was just one point of contention. FASA claimed that the entire Exosquad property violated their copyrights, using examples like "mecha" and "genetically-engineered enemies." But you are correct that the judge did actually rule that the e-frame wasn't close enough to the original Mad Cat to be infringing, so that's my mistake.
That said, "dismissed with prejudice" is a ruling for the defendant. FASA absolutely lost, but the judge did feel that their lawsuit was legally justifiable - that is, not frivolous nor in bad faith - so both sides paid their own fees. Copyrights are meant to be defended in civil courts, so if FASA was concerned then the judge could not penalize them for using the system as intended.
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I think we're arguing over agreeing here, Frabby. :D The precise, fiddly details are not super-important here. Let's move on.
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Let us hope that between the Playmates ruling and the Hasbro ruling all parties no named Harmony Gold have both legs to stand on.
And am I the only one who hates comparing battlemechs to nekkid women?? Playmates used to mean something to us old *&%#*@$ *&$^@*#
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"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable." - Sun Tzu (the original one from 500 BC)
Well the silver-lining is that we might get a definitive court-enforceable ruling on the classic mech imagery for PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al which would mean that all TPTB could then start rolling out the classics with extreme prejudice and without fear.
I personally like the idea of contributing to a crowd-funding effort to help fund PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al's legal defence vs the Not-Named Company but I fully understand the sensitivities against organising such an effort here. So I will scrimp and save up my pennies to buy the BattleMech Manual and TRO:Succession Wars along with my purchase of SW2 even thought I do not really need either of those sourcebooks because this is the most effective way I can help in the "war effort".
PGI/HBS/CGL/IWM/et al - Good luck and good hunting O0
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Skipping back a little here...
Yeah, I cringed at the Archer comparison while reading the brief. Unsure what to make of IMR's involvement besides being roped in as part of the crowd of usual suspects.
Randall Bills has blog posts extolling HBS' BattleTech video game, and stating his participation with it (and thus implying IMR/CGL's participation). Per the lawsuit, until those posts, HG wasn't really aware of anything they'd consider infringing, but once they saw the MWO/BTPC Warhammer they dug deeper and found a bunch of stuff they feel violates both their copyrights and the contract they signed with Jordan Weisman settling the 1996 lawsuit. Now they've added a lot of the "Classic" imagery found in CM: Mercs, etc., to the suit.
As of last I checked, only Harebrained Schemes has responded to the lawsuit, and their response was pretty much "Yes, Jordan works for us, yes we're from Washington, we don't know anything else, and we deny everything." They're passing this off on Piranha who are, after all, the folks who came up with did the controversial designs. We'll have to wait and see what they and IMR respond.
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I have been pining away fipor the return of the classics since the new Warhammer pic was released, what, 2 years ago? Longer? So I understand the angst, but a revelation came over me just tonight.
I have been putting off getting a number of minis, hoping to be able to get the new designs, especially the Marauder, but after reading about HGs newest round of fun-destroying Trollery I looked back at getting the currently available IWM designs ( you know, the anorexic Marauder and the Warhammer that got hit in the face with a shovel...) and i finally made up my mind:
Forget the classic unseen style designs! Let HG and the dead Robotech ip have them! This issue has dragged Btech down and held it back for DECADES! Let them go. Forget the old mistakes and move on. Embrace the mechs as they are now and move on. I won't wait any longer, I'll fill my gaps with current IWM designs and learn to love them and clean the Btech slate.
Seriously, if this game is to survive and not keep lugging around "back in the good old days" comparisons and grudges, then it needs to focus on the designs and creations NO ONE ELSE can call into question ever again! Just give the current designs a makeover to maybe fix some minor issues, and embrace them!
Again, I'm an old Btech veteran. First mechs were the plastic unseen core set, I UNDERSTAND! But enough is enough.
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I wouldn't mind the reseen if they weren't so hideously UGLY. I won't pay for them for any reason. Never never never never. I would rather mold my own designs as proxies.
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Meanwhile on the Harmony Gold executive floor
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/7e9b600795e2a55191640ff6432ead0d/tumblr_mlg85aT0N01r4og14o1_1280.jpg)
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The lawsuit against PGI is pretty on-point from what I saw. Not sure that Piranha's got much in defense, other than potentially claiming they had no idea of anyone else owning copyright. ...Good luck with that.
From what I understand, the Classics art that was provided was determined to be legally different enough that it could be used. I would have imagined this would have been done as some kind of legal review, even to the point of (the legal equivalent of) contacting HG and saying 'does this violate your IP in your opinion' - at which point, if HG said 'no go ahead and use it' then CGL has carte blanche. If that wasn't done, then CGL is in trouble. (And honestly might well deserve it)
The crux of the legal argument is the use of the PGI imagery - most of which is extremely similar to the Classics designs. Compare the Rifleman and Archer between CGL and PGI; they're practically exactly the same. In my entirely non-legal opinion, this is where the trouble comes in - if HG wins its argument that one set of art is an IP violation both sets of art are. At which point CGL, having used those images to sell product (i.e. generate profit), is knowingly in breach of agreements made previously, and exposed to penalty fines. THAT kills the Battletech, and this is my fear. Hopefully I'm mistaken in this; I'll happily accept Bosch's commentary.
Honestly, at this point CGL's best option IMO is just let the Classics and Unseen go completely, switch everything to the Reseen, and call it a day. If they can, at this point.
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,Snip>
Honestly, at this point CGL's best option IMO is just let the Classics and Unseen go completely, switch everything to the Reseen, and call it a day. If they can, at this point.
I agree wholeheartedly agree with this part of your post. As soon as the Project Phoenix (PP) came out, the TPTB and the fandom should have just retconned the Unseen out of existence and their collective memories. Hell, I like most of the ReSeen and most, if not all, of them are so well done that we all should have been happy with got from PP that we should have forgotten about what was lost.
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Also, if people are wondering WHY this is happening now? Besides the continuing rollout of "Classics" in MWO, there's this little thing brewing.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/robotech-movie-director-andy-muschietti-direct-1021744
Sony currently has the film rights to Robotech, and is working on a production. This is a potential multi-hundred-million-dollar investment in a franchise. Harmony Gold has every legal requirement to lock down its IP before this happens, and frankly? A Robotech movie (or even a series) interests me a hell of a lot more than further BT products. I love the game, I love the setting, but it's very small scale and is barely a blip on anyone's radar. A giant robot movie done well (bite me, Bay) has a lot of great potential.
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I have been pining away fipor the return of the classics since the new Warhammer pic was released, what, 2 years ago? Longer? So I understand the angst, but a revelation came over me just tonight.
I have been putting off getting a number of minis, hoping to be able to get the new designs, especially the Marauder, but after reading about HGs newest round of fun-destroying Trollery I looked back at getting the currently available IWM designs ( you know, the anorexic Marauder and the Warhammer that got hit in the face with a shovel...) and i finally made up my mind:
Forget the classic unseen style designs! Let HG and the dead Robotech ip have them! This issue has dragged Btech down and held it back for DECADES! Let them go. Forget the old mistakes and move on. Embrace the mechs as they are now and move on. I won't wait any longer, I'll fill my gaps with current IWM designs and learn to love them and clean the Btech slate.
Seriously, if this game is to survive and not keep lugging around "back in the good old days" comparisons and grudges, then it needs to focus on the designs and creations NO ONE ELSE can call into question ever again! Just give the current designs a makeover to maybe fix some minor issues, and embrace them!
Again, I'm an old Btech veteran. First mechs were the plastic unseen core set, I UNDERSTAND! But enough is enough.
As a purveyor of fine miniature pewter armaments, can I interest you in some primitive versions that look much nicer than the reseen?
Marauder MAD-4X [20-5085]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/20-5085.jpg)
Hammerhands HMH-3D [20-443]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/20-443.jpg)
Rifleman RFL-1N [BT-322]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/BT-322.jpg)
Note for Mods - Yes I am aware of Forum Rule No. 10. No I am not trying to sell minis to this fine, upstanding gentleman. I am trying to use humour to make him aware that there beautiful primitives as an alternative to ugly reseens. [Waves hand in a vague gesture] You don't need to see my identification . . . These aren't the miniature that you are looking for . . . I can go about my business . . . Move along. ^-^
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As much as I would love a live action Robotech movie I don't think it will happen. How many time have the film rights been picked up over the years?? They haven't even gone beyond Shadow Chronicles to my knowledge and that is animated.
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PGI's mecha are VERY more different from Macross related designs that they certainly have a fighting chance. I would be more nervous with CGL's versions than those.
Someday those old men will retire, I wish it would happen sooner. I keep praying Sony would buy them out of existence.
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That said, Piranha may be in trouble. While HG's claim that the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk are derivative of Macross machines is laughable, those aren't the main subjects of the lawsuit. The primary models involved are Piranha's versions of the Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, and Phoenix Hawk. Those machines do resemble the original Macross models quite a bit, and deliberately. Scanning through the documents filed doesn't reveal Harebrained's defense, as far as I can see, but they did demand a trial by jury, which already has a date set: September of 2018. As CGL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of InMediaRes, HG seems to be skipping them to go right for the parent company.
And one of the key points in the suit is that HG is trying to link HBS to Piranha Games - See sections 23, 28 and 29. Apparently HBS has a license of some sort from Piranha Games and HG is using that as a basis to sue them even though it does not appear that HBS has used any questionable images so far (even in that Beta none of the mechs that are available are based on the HG Unseen). HG may have an action against Piranha Games, but the inclusion of HBS seems more then a bit questionable.
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Could this be the first time its actually "good" that the IP is split up between so many companies? Better call Saul!
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As a purveyor of fine miniature pewter armaments, can I interest you in some primitive versions that look much nicer than the reseen?
Marauder MAD-4X [20-5085]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/20-5085.jpg)
Hammerhands HMH-3D [20-443]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/20-443.jpg)
Rifleman RFL-1N [BT-322]
(http://ironwindmetals.com/store/images/btmechs/BT-322.jpg)
Note for Mods - Yes I am aware of Forum Rule No. 10. No I am not trying to sell minis to this fine, upstanding gentleman. I am trying to use humour to make him aware that there beautiful primitives as an alternative to ugly reseens. [Waves hand in a vague gesture] You don't need to see my identification . . . These aren't the miniature that you are looking for . . . I can go about my business . . . Move along. ^-^
I love the Primitive designs! Especially the Primitive T-Bolt, beautiful design... And I would use a lot of them as modern variants, yes. Not the Hammerhands, it has too much of it's own identity though, and the Marauder 4X isn't Primitive I thought? Isn't it new and experimental?
Anyway, I have used a Reaper/Talon Nightshade mech as my proxy Marauder and I'm very well pleased with it so far. 😀
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I don´t know if this was posted already, but I think this might interest some readers. I hope it´s okay to post this here, if not just delete this. https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/1-0.html
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That's the core of the case, yeah. Point 22 especially; it's going to be damn hard to argue against it for PGI. Depending on how closely tied PGI and HBS are is a big question, but point 17 is also a big kicker. The other major comparison - Atlas/Armored Valkyrie, etc - is really pushing it though...but in a case like this it's better to reach far and let a judge/jury call a boundary line. After all, who wants to risk two hundred million bucks on a movie for a lawsuit-weak franchise?
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I hate we got wait a year until a ruling is issued...
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I love the Primitive designs! Especially the Primitive T-Bolt, beautiful design... And I would use a lot of them as modern variants, yes. Not the Hammerhands, it has too much of it's own identity though, and the Marauder 4X isn't Primitive I thought? Isn't it new and experimental?
Anyway, I have used a Reaper/Talon Nightshade mech as my proxy Marauder and I'm very well pleased with it so far. 😀
The MAD-4X is an experimental design, here is the MUL listing http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5768/marauder-mad-4x (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5768/marauder-mad-4x). The Reaper/Talon Nightshade is a good looking proxy, very unseen Marauder IIC looking (which is a good looking mech).
I too love the primitive Thud and the classic Thud is glorious, much better than the reseen Thud (I will note that the Thud is one of my favourite mechs).
Good luck with filling your armies O0
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does this mean we now have the unseen and NuUnseen??
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If we were going for vigilantly justice could we not skip ahead to the bidding process between us Clanners for the rights to destroy those HG executives and their freeborn spawn. I think they compare to the Dark Caste IIRC.....
I would like to start by bidding Alpha , Delta, Omega, and Zeta Galaxies of Clan Ghost Bear to utterly crush them.....
On a side note you know what this really means..... Ilclan 'might be' delayed :-[
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If we were going for vigilantly justice could we not skip ahead to the bidding process between us Clanners for the rights to destroy those HG executives and their freeborn spawn. I think they compare to the Dark Caste IIRC.....
I would like to start by bidding Alpha , Delta, Omega, and Zeta Galaxies of Clan Ghost Bear to utterly crush them.....
On a side note you know what this really means..... Ilclan 'might be' delayed :-[
Why would there be a delay? There nothing tainting the book from that unseen thing.
We’ve moved on by then to Reseens anyways.
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If we were going for vigilantly justice could we not skip ahead to the bidding process between us Clanners for the rights to destroy those HG executives the Khans of the Not-Named Corporation and their freeborn freebirth surat spawn. I think they compare to the Dark Caste IIRC.....
I would like to start by bidding Alpha , Delta, Omega, and Zeta Galaxies of Clan Ghost Bear to utterly crush them.....
On a side note you know what this really means..... Ilclan 'might be' delayed :-[
Fixed for you O0
No we learn from the mistakes of the Operation Revival. No bidding, fighting amongst ourselves to give advantage to the freebirth surats, no fighting with honour against dishonourable surats who will take advantage of us having one hand tied behind our backs. This is the war to end all wars, this is the final fight for our heritage, our present and our future. We bid total war. Selya.
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Why would there be a delay? There nothing tainting the book from that unseen thing.
We’ve moved on by then to Reseens anyways.
Only so many hours in the day. If all attention is being drawn away to other things, be they non-BT books, conventions or the HG mess, then less time to spare towards finishing IlClan.
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That's the core of the case, yeah. Point 22 especially; it's going to be damn hard to argue against it for PGI. Depending on how closely tied PGI and HBS are is a big question, but point 17 is also a big kicker.
Exactly the points I was instinctively drawn to :(
The other major comparison - Atlas/Armored Valkyrie, etc - is really pushing it though...but in a case like this it's better to reach far and let a judge/jury call a boundary line. After all, who wants to risk two hundred million bucks on a movie for a lawsuit-weak franchise?
It´s the strategy Paul Verhoeven did with his movies. He put so much gore into them that the censors had trouble justify censoring everything, so Verhoeven had more than enough gore after the cutting room had its go. Same strategy here: they go bonkers with the Atlas so that the judge will focus on the easier decisions, ergo Archer & Rifleman.
What I cannot understand is, how were these designs greenlit in the first place. I mean, we all know how vindictive HG is with the "old ones". I hope we have substitutes in our sleeves.
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I'm really curious as to who the other Does might be. We know that CGL, InRes, and IWM might be involved, but what of the other 7? Topps and Microsoft only bring it to 5.. Would the Artists of said units also be a possibility? Even then thats another two defendents??
MechJock dropped Unseen into the Pods for some builds. Could be one of Does.
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I'll be interested to see what ColBosch's friend says. None of us seem to be copyright lawyers (or would trademarked be the actual term since HG didn't design the images). Is it as simple as pointing out a number of specific difference such as construction of joints, armor layout, limb shape, weapons placement, etc? Do you just count to 10?
Looking back on the filing, Piranha does seem to have skirted awfully, awfully close with some of those designs - to say the least. This is surprising because they should have known how much trouble they could get into, but also not considering the various issues players have had with them.
My hope is that Catalyst is okay and our Classics remain. My hope is that the guys at CGL were careful enough to have gotten a lawyer and gone through several iterations to get where we are (eg. you could say the new Warhammer is closer to the Devastator). My hope is that CGL doesn't just buckle for the sake of being safe and holds its ground and forms an argument from its merits. My hope is that HG's issues with the Macross IP comes back to bite them.
Despite being the same IP, BattleTech is produced by different companies that don't seem to be coordinating much at all.
Also, how does a Japanese company like Sony make a supposed blockbuster like RoboTech, but not show it in Japan? Doesn't that open up a whole new can of worms?
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Dumb question from an non-North American. How does US IP/copyright laws work across the Canadian border? Noting that PGI is a Canadian company.
I also note that in the Not-Named Corporation's filing para 11-12 states:
In 1984, Tatsunoko granted entertainment production company [the Not-Named Corporation] an exclusive license to adapt the Macross, Mospeada and The Southern Cross series aired in the United States.
Tatsunoko also granted [the Not-Named Corporation] an exclusive license to market in the United States products incorporating Robotech warrior robots, such as books, toys, video games, films, comic books and apparel. [The Not-Named Corporation] possesses this exclusive license to this day.
Which if my non-legal brain reads it correctly, is effectively an admission they have no exclusive license beyond the US.
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Urf :( Bloody HG, well this is rubbish, I hope it gets resolved though in the best way for us.
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Someone elsewhere mentioned the case looks a lot like "Jordan told us we're the Giant Warrior Robot People, and now these people are making Giant Warrior Robots but we own Giant Warrior Robots!"
So yeah, really interested in that analysis from a lawyer Col Bosch is in contact with.
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Time to declare a Trail of Annihilation against Harmony Gold! >:D
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I have no particular insight into this trial, but I would guess that sending art to HG and asking if they think it infringes their IP goes something like this:
<sends picture of 1st attempt at Warhammer>
HG: Nope, we think it is derivative.
<sends picture of 2nd attempt at Warhammer>
HG: Nope, we think it is derivative.
<sends picture of a Jaeger from Pacific Rim>
HG: Nope, we think it is derivative.
<sends picture of a kitten with a taco on it's head>
HG: Nope, we think it is derivative.
Basically, I doubt they would affirmatively give you an OK on ANYTHING that was sent to them. There is no benefit for them in doing so.
On another note, if you want to raise money for something, raise money to buy the license from HG. They obviously like money, and there hasn't exactly been a whole lot made of that property in the past few years. I won't go so far as to say that no one really cares about Robotech anymore, but it certainly has waned in popularity and there hasn't been much in the way of new development of the property. Palladium tried to make that minis game, but apparently it isn't going so well. Other than that, what has actually come out? I can't think of any movies or shows that were released in the past four or five years, but maybe I've missed something. Anyway, the point is that I doubt HG is so in love with the license that they would never sell it, especially if it isn't a big earner anymore. How much would it cost? Depends on what they make from it now and how you negotiate the deal. I don't see it being less than half a million (unless revenue is really terrible) and possibly much more.
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[MODERATOR OPPRESSION INTENSIFIES]
Gentlefolk all, this thread has been locked. The Moderators do this not out of any desire to punish those discussing this matter, which is manifestly one of intense interest to BattleTech fans, but from an excess of caution: further discussing it here might bring even more trouble down on CGL’s heads.
It is my personal belief that CGL will tell us what they can, when they can, once the situation permits. Until that time, please, do not reopen discussion of this matter on these forums.
Keep the faith, BattleTech fans.
[MODERATOR OPPRESSION TERMINATES]
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[UNEXPECTED PLOT TWIST]
We are re-opening this discussion, Battletech faithful. Please understand, though, that this thread is purely for forumites to discuss the Harmony Gold issue amongst themselves. It is highly unlikely, due to circumstances, that any CGL representative will post here to answer your questions.
Additionally, please keep the discussion civil. Everyone who has enjoyed Battletech over the years has an opinion on the Unseen/Reseen/Classics/Harmony Gold topic. That does not mean that we are suspending the forum rules for this thread, though. We have already asked - twice - that this discussion stay reasonable and polite.
As always, thank you for your patience.
[TOTALLY EXPECTED END OF POST]
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The great ActionButler has ended the Moderator Opressions!! All hail the great ActionButler!
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I wonder...since they actually own the respective parts of the IP, how Microsoft and Topps will be part of the litigation?
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I wonder...since they actually own the respective parts of the IP, how Microsoft and Topps will be part of the litigation?
While they're license holders, they aren't directly involved in anything their licensees do, right? So they probably aren't a part of the case.
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On another note, if you want to raise money for something, raise money to buy the license from HG. They obviously like money, and there hasn't exactly been a whole lot made of that property in the past few years. I won't go so far as to say that no one really cares about Robotech anymore, but it certainly has waned in popularity and there hasn't been much in the way of new development of the property. Palladium tried to make that minis game, but apparently it isn't going so well. Other than that, what has actually come out? I can't think of any movies or shows that were released in the past four or five years, but maybe I've missed something. Anyway, the point is that I doubt HG is so in love with the license that they would never sell it, especially if it isn't a big earner anymore. How much would it cost? Depends on what they make from it now and how you negotiate the deal. I don't see it being less than half a million (unless revenue is really terrible) and possibly much more.
I have no idea if this would work, but at least it´s a constructive suggestion for dealing with this matter. I´d much rather we discussed idea like that instead of various revenge fantasies.
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First, thanks for re-opeing this thread. I think we can all understand that it will be a fan-only discussion and I appreciate letting us have a place to talk about it.
Anyway, I'd be somewhat surprised if HG added Topps or MS as plaintiffs. I would imagine they do NOT want either of those two brought into the suit, while PGI and HBS would probably love to get MS involved. The original complaint doesn't have much in it that makes me think Topps would be brought in, but Microsoft is possible. However, it's not anywhere near a given that Microsoft will feel the need to help defend their licensee. It probably depends in large part of the terms of the license agreement and if Microsoft perceives this as devaluing their IP or contesting their rights to it.
MS could probably see it one of two ways: They could say, hey, we own this IP, and you can't tell our licensees what they can and can't do with it. You are hurting our revenue stream and we don't like it. Or they could go the other way and say, we licensed you the right to make a Mechwarrior game, but we never said what a particular mech had to look like. If you made a model that infringes on someone else's IP, that was your mistake. They could reasonably decide to go either way.
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From what I'm reading HG is naming the video game companys as primarys in there lawsuit with the option to add other companys down the line? That makes no sense. What they going to do? Add Lucasarts because they have Quads? Or a Chickenwalker?
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On another note, if you want to raise money for something, raise money to buy the license from HG. They obviously like money, and there hasn't exactly been a whole lot made of that property in the past few years. I won't go so far as to say that no one really cares about Robotech anymore, but it certainly has waned in popularity and there hasn't been much in the way of new development of the property. Palladium tried to make that minis game, but apparently it isn't going so well. Other than that, what has actually come out? I can't think of any movies or shows that were released in the past four or five years, but maybe I've missed something. Anyway, the point is that I doubt HG is so in love with the license that they would never sell it, especially if it isn't a big earner anymore. How much would it cost? Depends on what they make from it now and how you negotiate the deal. I don't see it being less than half a million (unless revenue is really terrible) and possibly much more.
I have no idea if this would work, but at least it´s a constructive suggestion for dealing with this matter. I´d much rather we discussed idea like that instead of various revenge fantasies.
now that Sony is bankrolling a live action Robotech movie (which opens up the possibility of a future revenue stream from it and merchandising for things like a continuation of the shadow chronicles and new spinoffs), i doubt that HG would sell.
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I have no idea if this would work, but at least it´s a constructive suggestion for dealing with this matter. I´d much rather we discussed idea like that instead of various revenge fantasies.
Harmony Gold has rebuffed all previous attempts to purchase the Robotech property from them. Whether it's because they genuinely believe it has great value, or they're simply being obstinate, is immaterial. Right now, the best way we can help the parties we support is to purchase their products and encourage others to do the same.
Piranha and Harebrained Schemes have both filed defenses, which I missed because of the way docket items are named. Piranha asserts that they have not infringed on HG's copyrights, and that furthermore HG has no valid claim on the copyrights anyway. Piranha lists a ton of further defenses, some of which I'm not sold on being valid, such as estoppel and merger. These can be complicated to explain, so I'll wait for the attorney I've contacted to respond.
Harebrained's response is basically, "we're just licensing the designs from Piranha, and we don't think we're breaking copyrights, either." IMR has not responded yet, and really should get on that.
Both defendants have also asked for dismissal with prejudice and for HG to cover all legal fees. The former could happen, but the latter is unlikely for anyone involved. As I've said before, filing a lawsuit over something you believe to be copyright infringement is considered the proper course of action, so unless an action is a blatantly frivolous or bad faith filing - or, for that matter, blatantly obvious in its infringement - each side usually absorbs its legal fees. Win or lose, everyone's probably going to have to pay their own lawyers.
now that Sony is bankrolling a live action Robotech movie (which opens up the possibility of a future revenue stream from it and merchandising for things like a continuation of the shadow chronicles and new spinoffs), i doubt that HG would sell.
Harmony Gold has rebuffed every previous offer to purchase Robotech. They believe it has value beyond what they've been offered. So it goes.
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Might be faster to buy out Studio Nue and get them to have the HG rights invalidated somehow lol At least for Macross.
But does anyone really think the new Robotech movie is actually going to get made this time??? How many attempts does this make with the IP?
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Didn't stop Fox making the Wing Commander film. Anything possible.
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While they're license holders, they aren't directly involved in anything their licensees do, right? So they probably aren't a part of the case.
That depends, a complete ban on all derivative designs (possible interpretation of the HG claim) would hurt the Mechwarrior IP value as each macross design has a huge family of derivatives (including many of the 3050 Omnis). So it would be in MS best interest to help crush HG.
I think that the results of Japanese rulings (HG vs Tatsunoko and Big West) showed that HG doesn't have the rights to the designs, but only to the international distribution of animation of the original show. But Japan didn't care to enforce it outside of Japan..... A lawsuit in the US could end with their international 'copyright' being restricted to the animation and HG's own additions.
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The visuals were nice but the acting.... and the story... :-X #P
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Might be faster to buy out Studio Nue and get them to have the HG rights invalidated somehow lol At least for Macross.
That wouldn't work, either. Studio Nue were the production company, but Tatsunoko owns the rights. It's be like saying, "I wanna do my own thing with Star Trek" and buying out Bad Robot; Paramount will still have control over the IP.
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Might be faster to buy out Studio Nue and get them to have the HG rights invalidated somehow lol At least for Macross.
But does anyone really think the new Robotech movie is actually going to get made this time??? How many attempts does this make with the IP?
actually you'd have to buy up Tatsunoko.. because HG got their license through them, and Studio Nue has no control over the international distribution rights that HG is abusing due to Studio Nue's agreement with Tatsunoko regarding SDF: Macross.
but if you own tatsunoko you could withdraw the license.
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That wouldn't work, either. Studio Nue were the production company, but Tatsunoko owns the rights. It's be like saying, "I wanna do my own thing with Star Trek" and buying out Bad Robot; Paramount will still have control over the IP.
Tatsunoko ownership is limited to the original show.
As if to put the last nail in the case's coffin, Tatsunoko filed one last suit to claim that their involvement in the creation of the original Macross series was grounds for them to be entitled to a share of the profits from sequels. Their claim was shot down by the courts on 1 July 2004, where the judge denied the claim because they hadn't actually been involved in the development of the series (the creation of the story, concepts, designs, etc.) and had only gotten involved later on, to animate the series. This, more than anything, effectively killed Harmony Gold's assertion that their licensing agreement granted them rights to Macross sequels.
http://www.macrossnewhorizon.org/mediawiki/index.php/Macross_and_Robotech#Big_West_v._Tatsunoko
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but if you own tatsunoko you could withdraw the license.
I don't think they could do that, either. Since Robotech =/= Macross, and HG is trying to defend the visual images, Tatsunoko would be hard-pressed to prove that HG was in breach of contract. Indeed, the contract likely requires HG to pursue copyright violations.
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Tatsunoko ownership is limited to the original show.
http://www.macrossnewhorizon.org/mediawiki/index.php/Macross_and_Robotech#Big_West_v._Tatsunoko
pretty much. though HG's trademarks (on things like the Macross name) make bringing over said sequels a real pain. (and that is assuming the music rights issue could be resolved)
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pretty much. though HG's trademarks (on things like the Macross name) make bringing over said sequels a real pain. (and that is assuming the music rights issue could be resolved)
Yeah... In fact, the story I heard was that the only and sole reason the US was able to get Macross Plus (the only worthy sequel to the original and Do You Remember Love? IMNNAAHO ;) ) was that HG was being raided at the time by Haim Saban and so they missed the window of opportunity to sue.
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I am surprised HG even has a Trademark on Macross since the show and name predate HG acquiring the rights to distribute.
Would really love to watch the first and third series in its original form.
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I am surprised HG even has a Trademark on Macross since the show and name predate HG acquiring the rights to distribute.
Would really love to watch the first and third series in its original form.
Could have been awarded or purchased separately. As for the original form, I know Macross itself was (at one point) faithfully brought over to the US but it's been a while. Streamline had one version, then Animeigo put it out, and later editions have come from ADV and Lionsgate, though the latter is incomplete. There seems to have been DVDs for Mospeada, but I don't see anything for Southern Cross. Hunt ebay a while, you'll find it I'm sure.
Shame, I kinda liked the tanks (outside of the open cockpit, great idea guys)
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I am surprised HG even has a Trademark on Macross since the show and name predate HG acquiring the rights to distribute.
Would really love to watch the first and third series in its original form.
The first can curently be seen on Amazon Prime (albeit in a dubbed form, without the opening credits and with hideous film quality), or if you're willing to go into some money, you can get either the ADV or AnimEigo sets on the secondary market or go to a Japanese reseller for the Blu-Ray (thank God for the US and Japan being in the same Blu-Ray region!) If by "the third" you mean *sigh* Macross 7... you're going to have to get it from Japan as it never came to the US in any form and some may say that was a very good thing. (grumblegrumbledratthatnekkibasaraandhiscompletedestructionofdyrl'smessage...grumblegrumble)
ANS Kamas --
ADV did release Southern Cross. I watched it once... you're not really missing anything. They also released Mospeada. Both though are long out of print.
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Wouldn't surprise me; ADV was amazingly prolific with their licenses back then. They brought over all kinds of stuff. Sure beats taping it off satellite TV or foreign-language channels. Growing up in San Diego, man, I had it easy for that stuff.
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If by "the third" you mean *sigh* Macross 7... you're going to have to get it from Japan as it never came to the US in any form and some may say that was a very good thing. (grumblegrumbledratthatnekkibasaraandhiscompletedestructionofdyrl'smessage...grumblegrumble)
Third would actually be Macross F
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Third would actually be Macross F
You sure? I thought it was :
1. SDF Macross; (noncanonical interim 10th anniversary special: Macross II); 2. Macross Plus; 3. Macross 7, 4 and beyond: Lost interest in the franchise enough to no longer care about sequence.
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Macross II is OVA series and if that counts then series 3 is Macross plus as that's also an OVA series
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Macross II is OVA series and if that counts then series 3 is Macross plus as that's also an OVA series
Splitting hairs here, but Macross II is also not considered canonical. I just put that in there out of OCD and because someone would say "hey, you missed Macross II" :P The list I was envisioning was canonical serial works (TV series and OAVs, excluding oneshot movies, compilation films or one-episode OAV works[like Flashback 2012]) :)
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You sure? I thought it was :
1. SDF Macross; (noncanonical interim 10th anniversary special: Macross II); 2. Macross Plus; 3. Macross 7, 4 and beyond: Lost interest in the franchise enough to no longer care about sequence.
The series thus far consists of the following thus far:
Release order (IIRC):
SDF Macross
Macross DYRL?
Macross Flashback 2012
Macross Plus (OVA and movie versions)
Macross 7
Macross 7 The Galaxy is Calling Me!
Macross 7 Dynamite 7
Macross Zero
Macross Frontier (and two derivative movies)
Macross Delta
Chronological order:
Macross Zero
SDF Macross
Macross Flashback 2012
Macross Plus
Macross DYRL? (as a movie retelling of Space War 1)
Macross 7
Macross 7 The Galaxy is Calling Me!
Macross 7 Dynamite 7
Macross Frontier
Macross Delta
As an alternate reality sequel to SDF Macross, there was Macross II: Lovers Again...
Ruger
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I am surprised HG even has a Trademark on Macross since the show and name predate HG acquiring the rights to distribute.
Would really love to watch the first and third series in its original form.
They mainly have the trademark because the Japanese IP oiwners have never seen fit to seriously attack it. There's a large body of opinion that their rights would not survive a serious court challenge.
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So... does that mean somehow the Macross mecha exist in some sort of duality? HG owns the rights to Robotech, but not Macross. Those images appear in a multitude of different series. Therefore our Unseen aren't based off of Robotech; they are based off of Macross, which the creators of BattleTech knew of well before Robotech was created.
Which means, although similar, HG does not have a right to them as the HG contract with Tatsunoko is very limited to one series.
I can't tell whether that is a stretch or somehow accurate and legal as a loophole through what has previously been seen as concrete.
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Which brings up an old question of what rights did FASA claim to have over the original Macross images and who did they get it from. That may be something only Jordan can answer now... if even he remembers it.
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So... does that mean somehow the Macross mecha exist in some sort of duality? HG owns the rights to Robotech, but not Macross.
More like, if I understand it correctly, they have a license to distribute the original SDF Macross series in America, which they've chosen to do under the banner of "Robotech". It looks to my eyes from what's been said that it became a classic case of "given an inch, took a mile", as HG ballooned the distribution rights into a power play for a lock on the US rights in toto on Macross, one that nobody really wanted to challenge.
Those images appear in a multitude of different series. Therefore our Unseen aren't based off of Robotech; they are based off of Macross, which the creators of BattleTech knew of well before Robotech was created.
Not... quite... The two were IIRC in parallel development at roughly the same time. At the same time BT was being developed, Carl Macek was trying to shop around a dub of Macross (using the way-before-its-time avenue of mail order, IIRC). HG and Revell, who had their own rights or interests in mecha show IP, somehow allied with him circa mid-to-late 1984 (about when BattleDroids was first released and then pulled due to reasons revolving around George Lucas) to form the Frankenshow we all know today.
Which means, although similar, HG does not have a right to them as the HG contract with Tatsunoko is very limited to one series.
Which, along with the Haim Saban headhunting raid on HG's staff may also be why Macross Plus made it here to the US. But nobody seems to want to joust with them on that issue.
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Right. And the problem I am wrestling with is am I being levelheaded or are my biases affecting my ability to see this case fairly.
Obviously, fairness does not always win and a jury not always the best choice. There is a level of knowledge here that may go beyond a jury's ability to comprehend without years of being immersed in this. To the average person, giant robot is a giant robot with a silhouette being the most telling rather than specific details.
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Which brings up an old question of what rights did FASA claim to have over the original Macross images and who did they get it from. That may be something only Jordan can answer now... if even he remembers it.
From various sources FASA had licensed the original designs from TCI (Twentieth Century Imports) which had a license to make plastic models of the designs. The question has been did TCI have the right to license the designs to FASA (and how did TCI's rights interact with HGs licensing of Macross).
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Which brings up an old question of what rights did FASA claim to have over the original Macross images and who did they get it from. That may be something only Jordan can answer now... if even he remembers it.
As I remember it, FASA licensed the art from 20th century imports in B.C. who were a model company who I believe we're a model kit import company in canada. Who were licensed by studio nu? Before the actual rights got ironed out in Japan. HG claims to be the exclusive ww distributor outside Japan, however I don't know if they actually have any rights other than in the US
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My question is, based off the fact that Harmony Gold is prepping for the new live action film, and they may only have the rights to the designs seen in the original Robotech, what would happen if they were to loose this suit? In order to make a live action movie, they'd have to update and adapt the designs for the big screen, make them more realistic, and believable to fit in with the setting. (See the problems with the ability of the Glaug officer's pod to walk, for example.) If they were to redesign the original mecha for this purpose, what are the odds of PGI placing a countersuit, if their redesigns are to similar to what PGI has done?
There's only so much you can do to update these designs to fit the modern age while keeping the original feel to the designs, and I think PGI really has it nailed it.
Maybe it's an unrealistic scenario, but one can hope.
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My question is, based off the fact that Harmony Gold is prepping for the new live action film, and they may only have the rights to the designs seen in the original Robotech, what would happen if they were to loose this suit?
I really think the lawsuit and all it entails are fairly immaterial to the movie rights. If and when they make it, it'll almost certainly use the much-legally-safer-from-HG's-standpoint-in-Japan Mospeada/Shadow Chronicles designs and aesthetic, because Sony will insist on a worldwide release, and if there's a movie that has VF-1 Valkyries buzzing about in Japan and Big West had nothing to do with it, they will bang on Tatsunoko's door and ask "what the hell?" Then Tatsunoko will have to ask Harmony Gold "what the hell?" and ask Sony "Respectfully, could you please... if you want to, that is... explain the situation, sirs?"
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That is something I brought up earlier. We have a Japanese company producing a film on an American IP, which is only a bastardization of several Japanese IPs. Then you are going to show this worldwide... but what happens when you get to Japan?
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I've read over the original complaint (don't wannna pay PACER for the amended one!) and I think HG may have a joinder issue with their complaint. They maybe have a reason for lumping HBS and PGI together, but not IMR/CGL. Even with HBS and PGI, since their complaint is over totally different allegedly deriveative pieces of art, I'm not even sure those two belong together. For example, they list an image of the shadow hawk as one of HBS's infringements, but they do NOT list the Shadow Hawk as an infringing design for PGI. There are lots of ways to attack this thing, but I'd certainly be arguing, among other things, that all these defendants are improperly joined...or rather, I'd be asking my lawyer about it because I am not a lawyer and would certainly have retained one.
Really though, I don't see anything in their complaint that justifies PGI and HBS being lumped together in the same suit. They are just saying that they both created derivative works from the same source art. That is a bit like saying two people who robbed banks should be part of the same case because both robbed Wells Fargo branches. Joining Jordan and HBS is probably reasonable, and there MAY be an argument for joining HBS and PGI, but it isn't an argument they actually made in their complaint as far as I can see. Joining in CGL? I see no argument for why they did that other than IMR being in the same federal district, which isn't much of an argument.
If the judge found a joinder argument compelling, it wouldn't stop them from re-filing new complaints, but they would have to bring two or three suits, not just one, and they obviously don't want to do that.
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I don't think Sony would want to use 80s art regardless of who own the IP. Best point on this is Transformers. They kept the names of the bots but little else. Whos wants a modern movie using 80s art.
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I don't think Sony would want to use 80s art regardless of who own the IP. Best point on this is Transformers. They kept the names of the bots but little else. Whos wants a modern movie using 80s art.
Except HG may well insist on using their toys, rather than letting the film-makers create new ones. Hasbro was not attached to the cab-over truck, partly because recasting Optimus as a Mack allowed them to make new merch. Mospeada, Southern Cross and Macross is literally all HG's got and they're not going to dilute it, IMO, by letting others create new stuff that they may not be able to take a proprietary interest in.
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actually the file i saw did go after IMR/CGL, over the "classics" designs.
https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/38-0.html
(see page 20 onwards)
specifically the marauder and Warhammer.
presumably the Wasp and others got held back by CGL until this gets sorted out.
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Right. And the problem I am wrestling with is am I being levelheaded or are my biases affecting my ability to see this case fairly.
Obviously, fairness does not always win and a jury not always the best choice. There is a level of knowledge here that may go beyond a jury's ability to comprehend without years of being immersed in this. To the average person, giant robot is a giant robot with a silhouette being the most telling rather than specific details.
The brilliance of this is, that most of the pictures HG have selected for the complaint are from angles that make them appear most similar, and all appear to have been converted to black and white so that colour does not play a part. Very smart on their part.
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Except HG may well insist on using their toys, rather than letting the film-makers create new ones. Hasbro was not attached to the cab-over truck, partly because recasting Optimus as a Mack allowed them to make new merch. Mospeada, Southern Cross and Macross is literally all HG's got and they're not going to dilute it, IMO, by letting others create new stuff that they may not be able to take a proprietary interest in.
They have to change them, they don't have the rights to the designs.
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They have to change them, they don't have the rights to the designs.
I'm talking the Mosepeada and Southern Cross designs, which they can use with more of a solid legal footing inside Japan as those are owned completely by Tatsunoko as opposed to Tatsunoko having a tenuous "only outside Japan" hold on them as with Macross.
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The thing about at least the Catalyst work is that there are far more differences. And they mention the Archer, but we only have the one view of the Archer.
Do car companies go to court because one SUV looks grossly like another? Or do differences in the details make for enough derivation that it isn't an issue. A Ford Taurus and Toyota Camry are both sedans, but they are identifiable from just the appearance of the grill. The torso alone of the new Warhammer and the Destroid Tomahawk have very different angles and shapes.
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Do car companies go to court because one SUV looks grossly like another? Or do differences in the details make for enough derivation that it isn't an issue. A Ford Taurus and Toyota Camry are both sedans, but they are identifiable from just the appearance of the grill. The torso alone of the new Warhammer and the Destroid Tomahawk have very different angles and shapes.
Ford and Toyota don't have a Gollum-like devotion to their preciousssss -- ahem, I mean IP. :))
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Ford and Toyota don't have a Gollum-like devotion to their preciousssss -- ahem, I mean IP. :))
Ha! You got me there.
*sigh*
This just sucks. I hope I'm making sense with what I'm saying, you know? It is hard to believe we are over a year out from when these companies even go to court, let alone a decision and any appeals. That is such a long time to wait.
I guess the real sticking point is whether the Robotech movie goes into production. Without that, HG might not have the money to pursue this much further into court. Although they have real estate assets, is it worth jeopardizing that for an IP that has been languishing?
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I'm talking the Mosepeada and Southern Cross designs, which they can use with more of a solid legal footing inside Japan as those are owned completely by Tatsunoko as opposed to Tatsunoko having a tenuous "only outside Japan" hold on them as with Macross.
The problem HG has is that Mospeda and SC? They weren't very popular. As in, not at all. The mecha designs are forgettable, and in fact, both series were cut before their time in Japan. So, HG is in a position of not being able to use recognizable mecha and characters from the single most popular part of their "franchise."
Which is one (not only, but one) reason why Shadow Chronicles and Robotech Academy crashed so hard. They're milking the part of the IP that is curdled buttermilk.
Not being an IP attorney, I don't know how it would work, but a "go for the throat" approach might see the claim that they cannot sue, because they don't have a valid right to those IPs. The IP is literally all HG has. They don't have any products, no series, and if macross is allowed freely into hte US market, those robotech DVDs are goign to be used as coffee coasters.
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This just sucks. I hope I'm making sense with what I'm saying, you know? It is hard to believe we are over a year out from when these companies even go to court, let alone a decision and any appeals. That is such a long time to wait.
To put it in perspective...
Myra Clark Gaines had to endure 57 years of litigation to receive an inheritance she was legally entitled to (and tragically, she died five or six years short of the final verdict in her favor being rendered). I think we can wait one year for miniature figurines.
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To put it in perspective...
Myra Clark Gaines had to endure 57 years of litigation to receive an inheritance she was legally entitled to (and tragically, she died five or six years short of the final verdict in her favor being rendered). I think we can wait one year for miniature figurines.
Oh, dude, I know about waiting, believe me. I listen to TOOL, read the Game of Thrones books, and watch The Venture Brothers. Waiting is all I do.
... not to mention we're BattleTech fans...
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I am actually pondering something.
I am pondering that perhaps this lawsuit is not as directly related to the Sony live action movie as some think.
Let us consider that Harmony Gold's license is for distribution rights only as far as anyone has been able to verify.
I am with others in thinking it very unlikely Sony would use anything recognizable from Macross.
So I suspect this lawsuit may actually more be to give Harmony Gold the standing they need to cut themselves in on the Sony picture because they know as things are currently Sony could easily cut them out or crush them in court as live action does not need to use the same license/ip rights as anime. Especially when it comes to distribution.
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So I suspect this lawsuit may actually more be to give Harmony Gold the standing they need to cut themselves in on the Sony picture because they know as things are currently Sony could easily cut them out or crush them in court as live action does not need to use the same license/ip rights as anime. Especially when it comes to distribution.
Except that the one thing that HG undeniably owns is the Robotech name and the names of any characters and in-house-created concepts from the franchise ("Rick Hunter", "Rook Bartley", "Bowie Grant" et. al., the idea of "protoculture" being some sort of sci-fi-flower power source rather than an super-evolved alien progenitor race) Sony would HAVE to go through HG to do a Robotech movie, IINM. Now they would without doubt be able to outlast HG were they to try to strong-arm them, but it would be a PR black eye (Oh look, there goes Goliath, squashing David again!) that they would not need or want after the 2015 hack incident aired a lot of their dirty laundry. And why do that for a relic of the '80s that is fondly remembered but doesn't seemingly have a lot of groundswell for resurrection?
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So I suspect this lawsuit may actually more be to give Harmony Gold the standing they need to cut themselves in on the Sony picture because they know as things are currently Sony could easily cut them out or crush them in court as live action does not need to use the same license/ip rights as anime. Especially when it comes to distribution.
So what you're saying is :sue someone small who can't afford the fight> set a precedent> hold Sony over a barrel based on said precedent> profit
thst makes a scary kind of sense...
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Except that the one thing that HG undeniably owns is the Robotech name and the names of any characters and in-house-created concepts from the franchise ("Rick Hunter", "Rook Bartley", "Bowie Grant" et. al., the idea of "protoculture" being some sort of sci-fi-flower power source rather than an super-evolved alien progenitor race) Sony would HAVE to go through HG to do a Robotech movie, IINM. Now they would without doubt be able to outlast HG were they to try to strong-arm them, but it would be a PR black eye (Oh look, there goes Goliath, squashing David again!) that they would not need or want after the 2015 hack incident aired a lot of their dirty laundry. And why do that for a relic of the '80s that is fondly remembered but doesn't seemingly have a lot of groundswell for resurrection?
It is just the timing of it all that is making me a bit suspicious of what kind of deal Harmony Gold has with Sony for any supposed live action movie. As you point out there are a fair number of elements that indicate they would have to have some sort of existing deal for a movie to go forward. The timing just makes me think it is not a very good deal for Harmony Gold and Harmony Gold is trying a play to strengthen their position to re-negotiate.
Of course this also assumes this is not another "gotta do something with the IP or we lose it" production.
So what you're saying is :sue someone small who can't afford the fight> set a precedent> hold Sony over a barrel based on said precedent> profit
thst makes a scary kind of sense...
I do doubt they would try and sue Sony but a favorable outcome in this case would certainly help them if they chose to re-negotiate and the timing is what makes me think they are.
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Oh, dude, I know about waiting, believe me. I listen to TOOL, read the Game of Thrones books, and watch The Venture Brothers. Waiting is all I do.
... not to mention we're BattleTech fans...
I read the War Against the Chtorr series. Book 4 came out in 2003 and ended on a cliffhanger... Still waiting 24 years later.
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I read the War Against the Chtorr series. Book 4 came out in 2003 1993 and ended on a cliffhanger... Still waiting 24 years later.
Fixed for you O0
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Still waiting for the last Chtorr book myself ... that, and the second publishing of David Wingrove's Chung Kao books ...
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True, and of the three I would rather make a movie using the invid invasion story and art. Personally I think having the Cyclone armor in a film would be kick ***. Plus the veritechs looked cooler. Also fits in better with what they have been creating more recently (Shadow Chronicles)
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Geeze, how old are you guys? I'm only 32... is this my life from here on out: constant disappointment in others and having to wait with no resolution?
Oh no... am I going to become Rick from Rick & Morty?
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Geeze, how old are you guys? I'm only 32... is this my life from here on out: constant disappointment in others and having to wait with no resolution?
Let the bitterness flow through you, my young apprentice... >:D
Still waiting for the rest of Castle Zagyg to be released.
Though to be fair, I'm "only" 38 so, yeah...
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Geeze, how old are you guys? I'm only 32... is this my life from here on out: constant disappointment in others and having to wait with no resolution?
Oh no... am I going to become Rick from Rick & Morty?
Remember when you were a teenager and you wondered why your dad would get angry at you so easily over such trivial things like not taking the garbage out when you were busy playing a computer game? The answer is yes :D
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I took a peek at the Pallidium and Robotech Tactics forums today. They were either dead (RTT) or mostly silent. In RTTs case, it looks like the constant pushbacks and lack of updates have pretty much ended the game. Pallidium's mods or fanbase doesn't seem aware, interested or possibly banned from discussing what has been going on.
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well Palladium's Robotech RPG Forums is currently recovering from a rather lengthy reign of several trollish individuals who had more or less turned the forum into a graveyard (because these individuals were so prolific and derailed just about every discussion [through attempting to force their own bizzare interpretations of just about anythign i nthe show on everyone else.. even when proven wrong]) the last one got banned earlier this year. it is actually rather more active now than it was 6 months ago.
and the RTT forums are pretty much in stassis until the relaunch of the game with Wave2. not much left to discuss till then.
as far as moderators go, i am not aware of them being told anything about the lawsuit, certainly no one has mentioned such. i can ask one of my friends who is a lower level mod though if you want, but i doubt there has been any official word.
i suspect that it is more of a case where this lawsuit does not directly involve Palladium, and since discussion of HG's business is not something many on that forum routinely do (in many ways, the majority of them over there dislike HG as much as many BT players do. though for different reasons) it hasn't come up. it is also possible that many of those who do want to discuss it know that emotions running as high as they are in both fandoms, the result would just be arguments and then locked threads.
i will say that the robotech facebook communities are pretty active (though many of those are people who got banned for excessive violations of the policies on personal insults and flamewars on the PB forums), and while they also think that HG's antics are on the predatory side, they are rather upset with the battletech community right now.. not because of the lawsuit directly, but rather because of all the heated commentary coming from the more uninformed and emotional portions of the MWO, HBS, and (to a degree) CGL fandoms, regarding the lawsuit in the 90's. or at least, what the less informed perceive about how it happened and the details of it. there is a LOT of misunderstanding out there, and given the robotech fans already have a different viewpoint on the issue, the discussions have caused some issues.
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Of course this also assumes this is not another "gotta do something with the IP or we lose it" production.
Considering that's a legal requirement for the corporation's existence, yes, that's always part of the situation. If HG doesn't defend its IP, it by default relinquishes them, and that's destructive to the company's financial interests and obligations to its shareholders.
I guess at this point, some things from the 80s really should stay in the 80s. Time to move on, stop tilting at windmills and destroying companies, and make some new BattleMechs. Because seriously who doesn't want new BattleMechs?
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Edit: Removed the link. See my later post, with full commentary.
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It's clear why Piranha Games is named in the suit. The Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder and Phoenix Hawk are all shown right next to their Robotech equivalents. The HBS game is only in Beta but it's clear that HBS licensed various models from Piranha Games and both the Warhammer and Marauder appear on the official list of "confirmed 'Mechs" for the upcoming HBS game. The images cited for HBS will surely be updated before this case goes to trial, assuming it goes to trial.
Jordan Weisman is tangled up two-fold, first as CEO of HBS and second as a signatory of the 1996 confidential "Settlement Agreement" that FASA and Harmony Gold signed.
I suspect InMediaRes/CGL will become one of the "Doe" defendants over their own recently created art, notably the Warhammer, Wasp and Phoenix Hawk. However, this art appears to be completely unrelated, and independently created, to the art Piranha Games commissioned so it would have to considered separately on its own merits.
Given all of the history, legal and otherwise, this is an uphill battle. Nonetheless, it would have been a tremendous oversight if none of the companies hadn't already obtained legal advice regarding using the depictions in question prior to their use. In fact, it is now known Piranha Games sent Harmony Gold depictions prior to using them seeking their informal opinion on whether or not the design infringed on Harmony Gold's property. It seems reasonable to assume then that these companies already have the basis of their legal defense.
It will be fascinating to watch this all unfold. I hope "Document One, Two and Three" from the original Harmony Gold v. FASA come to light once more. I've been trying to find out what was in those for some time now. Whatever they contained caused the initial case to be settled out of court. In addition, I would love to know more about the original rights FASA obtained from Twentieth Century Imports. This has never been publicly revealed to my knowledge and would seem to have some bearing on the current situation although the IP is so fractured now that it may be irrelevant at this point.
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Fixed for you O0
You're right (it's been a day)
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Still waiting for the last Chtorr book myself ... that, and the second publishing of David Wingrove's Chung Kao books ...
The interesting thing is that Gerrold stated that he had book 5 partially written, moved and lost the notes, started re-writing, found his notes, started combining them and now has three more partial books. Of course, this was of like 2012
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You're right (it's been a day)
My pleasure, least I can do for all the wonderful moderation services you provide on this forum O0
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Looks like the American Otaku are bashing HG far worse that we have to this point.
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Sure doesn't mean we should start.
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Just to flip this argument on its head.
Considering the Robotech: Tactics game, RPG, etc... wouldn't it have been wiser if Harmony Gold would just get Catalyst to make them their own version of a game? As some kind of deal? Instead of crying over some stupid art? This is just considering how much of us would literally throw money away into products that would come out of this (example: Miniatures). Why not take the money being spent on lawyers and actually put it to good use?
Geeze, how old are you guys? I'm only 32... is this my life from here on out: constant disappointment in others and having to wait with no resolution?
Oh no... am I going to become Rick from Rick & Morty?
You pass butter.
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well Palladium's Robotech RPG Forums is currently recovering from a rather lengthy reign of several trollish individuals who had more or less turned the forum into a graveyard (because these individuals were so prolific and derailed just about every discussion [through attempting to force their own bizzare interpretations of just about anythign i nthe show on everyone else.. even when proven wrong]) the last one got banned earlier this year. it is actually rather more active now than it was 6 months ago.
*twitches*
That sounds distressingly familliar
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Southern cross was a one and done series in Japan, and never got very popular. Mospeada had a recent artbook released several years ago that I'm still eyeing to own. So yes. The American fans are going to be the main voice since its long over in Japan for the original series.
Looks like the American Otaku are bashing HG far worse that we have to this point.
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Giant stompy robot movies are becoming feasible, and thus Intellectual Property values are making a come back.
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Thanks to glitterboy for that link which had more documents available than PACER did. I looked over the responses from PGI and HBS, and to my only mildly trained eye, they aren't rolling over. Both of them threw a whole lot back at HG. Haven't seen a response on the docket from IMR yet, but if one pops up I look forward to reading it! I did NOT see anything about joinder, which surprises me a bit. Since it isn't there, I would guess that HBS and PGI either think they have a better shot by pooling resources, or they don't want to drag the case out longer than they have to.
Sadly, it looks like HG asked for, and was granted, a motion to keep a whole lot of what could come out in discovery off the public docket. That's fairly standard so it isn't a surprise, but it would have been fun to see the magical license agreement they claim to have.
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Ug, since those who know me have all ready had to hear me thru the years about how i feel about HG i won't repeat myself. Just know im rooting for ya!
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Considering that's a legal requirement for the corporation's existence, yes, that's always part of the situation. If HG doesn't defend its IP, it by default relinquishes them, and that's destructive to the company's financial interests and obligations to its shareholders.
I guess at this point, some things from the 80s really should stay in the 80s. Time to move on, stop tilting at windmills and destroying companies, and make some new BattleMechs. Because seriously who doesn't want new BattleMechs?
True enough and the timing is about right for another supposed Robotech movie. I just won't be surprised if Sony doesn't follow through again and nothing comes of it.
Though I did think about additional defendants. The artists themselves could get roped in as individuals. Especially if they were hired on commission and not as in house employees.
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I thought it interesting that HG said Weisman signed the Settlement Agreement in '96, but the HBS response calls it “Settlement Agreement and Mutual General Release”.
Might be nothing, but that title implies a lot.
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I'm willing to bet BIG money this THIS has something to do with HG crawling out of the woodwork to file this lawsuit!
http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-franchise/ (http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-franchise/)
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I don't know which is more depressing: That HG is pulling this shit again, or that when I was shopping last night they had Halloween candy out? :(
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About the Atlas claim, it has been brought to my attention that the Atlas looks similar to the Scopedog (VOTOMS), personally I would have never made such a connection. I think that HG did that to: spook the other side to an early settlement, make their other claims look less extreme or use it to undermine the reputation of BT. But I don't think this will work for them, I am getting the feeling that all BT companies have become sick of HG (so no settlement), will use the claim to make HG look 'unstable' and the Atlas hasn't been challenged since its introduction (while being in books, mini's and PC games).
I think that BT will win if: they get the Japanese rulings to be acknowledged in the US, and if they show that our derivatives follow the law and industry standard (derivatives are quite normal).
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I'm willing to bet BIG money this THIS has something to do with HG crawling out of the woodwork to file this lawsuit!
http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-franchise/ (http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-franchise/)
I don't know. That article is from March 2015, and still nothing to show for it. It isn't uncommon for movie studios to pick up rights to stories or scripts and just sit on them or never actually produce them. I don't think a Robotech movie is any closer to being made now than it was two years ago.
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Well, this unfortunately answers why we have not gotten the Classics in plastic . . . and other books featuring the new art are on hold. Also unfortunate that of the limited resources the IP has in CGL that who knows how much are tied up in the Classics that they will either not be able to recover or will be long delayed to recover the investment let alone the hoped for profit.
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I don't know. That article is from March 2015, and still nothing to show for it. It isn't uncommon for movie studios to pick up rights to stories or scripts and just sit on them or never actually produce them. I don't think a Robotech movie is any closer to being made now than it was two years ago.
Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill waiting on that promised Elric of Melnibone movie................... [blank]
http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/87247-exclusive-the-weitz-brothers-still-want-to-do-an-elric-movie
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Just to flip this argument on its head.
Considering the Robotech: Tactics game, RPG, etc...
Considering the boondoggle Robotech Tactics turned into? I doubt anyone wants to touch minis rights ATM.
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I don't know which is more depressing: That HG is pulling this shit again, or that when I was shopping last night they had Halloween candy out? :(
Is that 2016 or 2017 candy?
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About the Atlas claim, it has been brought to my attention that the Atlas looks similar to the Scopedog (VOTOMS), personally I would have never made such a connection. I think that HG did that to: spook the other side to an early settlement, make their other claims look less extreme or use it to undermine the reputation of BT. But I don't think this will work for them, I am getting the feeling that all BT companies have become sick of HG (so no settlement), will use the claim to make HG look 'unstable' and the Atlas hasn't been challenged since its introduction (while being in books, mini's and PC games).
I think that BT will win if: they get the Japanese rulings to be acknowledged in the US, and if they show that our derivatives follow the law and industry standard (derivatives are quite normal).
The question is...even if the Japanese rulings were brought up, how much weight would a US court give them?
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My biggest fear with it is the Jury Trial thing. As they won't be trained copyright sorts like a Judge would. They might not notice the 'minor' differences that are -technically correct- and thus distinguishing. These people might just see Giant Stompy Robot (Warrior Robot) and be ornery they're doing Jury Duty and in a hurry to get out. :(
Hopefully the 'no longer have/never had technically copyright' thing will come up and it frees up a lot though. Long run.
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Boy, can I just say what a bummer this development is?
Another TRO issued with no mention of some of our most important mechs. Just another flesh wound, maybe, but man.
I'm so bummed.
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the robotech movie recently announced some progress (they've gotten to the point of a prelim script and shopping for a director at least), so it is possible that HG is going after examples of works "based on" their IP's art in order to establish precedent that designs created by Sony for the film still count as HG products. and they are just using Weisman's (and Pirhana games and IMR's) involvement in HBS as a convenient excuse to go after all of them at once while hiding their ultimate goal.
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The question is...even if the Japanese rulings were brought up, how much weight would a US court give them?
The rights that can be applied come from the Japanese companies.
For example: I couldn't sell you a bridge if I didn't own it. And if you start to collect toll from people crossing the bridge, then you would also be in trouble.
My biggest fear with it is the Jury Trial thing. As they won't be trained copyright sorts like a Judge would. They might not notice the 'minor' differences that are -technically correct- and thus distinguishing. These people might just see Giant Stompy Robot (Warrior Robot) and be ornery they're doing Jury Duty and in a hurry to get out. :(
Hopefully the 'no longer have/never had technically copyright' thing will come up and it frees up a lot though. Long run.
They would have to show examples of non BT Mecha that are also legal derivatives, and so explaining the legal and industry standard.
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the robotech movie recently announced some progress (they've gotten to the point of a prelim script and shopping for a director at least), so it is possible that HG is going after examples of works "based on" their IP's art in order to establish precedent that designs created by Sony for the film still count as HG products. and they are just using Weisman's (and Pirhana games and IMR's) involvement in HBS as a convenient excuse to go after all of them at once while hiding their ultimate goal.
Maybe.
If Sony signed a licensing contract with HG, they should have worked out that kind of thing (toy deals, etc.) at the time. On the other hand, Sony might have told them to get their IP ducks in a row before the movie went too far. Sony has money, but I doubt they want to have to sort out HG's mess for them.
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Considering that's a legal requirement for the corporation's existence, yes, that's always part of the situation. If HG doesn't defend its IP, it by default relinquishes them, and that's destructive to the company's financial interests and obligations to its shareholders.
Is that true for Copyright? It is certainly not true for patents (you can wait as long as you like to sue, at least until the patent expires), but it is true for trademarks, which must be vigorously defended.
What is the standard for Copyright? I had thought it was more lax that the trademark enforcement requirement.
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The lawyers on both sides seem competent enough. I doubt either will pull any major goofs, like trusting a jury to pay attention to tiny differences in artwork alone. Piranha's response really is pushing the idea that Harmony Gold doesn't have valid copyrights to begin with.
PGI is claiming sixteen points of defense. I think it's worth going through them and giving my opinions on each. Of course, I am not an attorney, so don't take any of the below as legal advice.
1. (Failure to State a Claim for Relief) - This is a standard defense. Basically, it says "we didn't do anything wrong, so we don't owe you anything." It has nothing to do with dollar values, because at this stage the amount desired by the plaintiff hasn't been established.
2. (Noninfringement) - This is obvious. "We didn't rip you off, so we don't owe you anything."
3. (Invalidity or Unenforceability of Copyright) - Shots fired. "Your claimed copyrights are BS."
4. (Fair Use) - Fairly standard defense. "If there happens to be mention of your copyrighted material, it is limited to instances covered by Fair Use Doctrine."
5. (Estoppel) - This had me stumped for a bit. Estoppel basically means that if you allow something for a while, you can't suddenly change your mind about it. I believe that Piranha et al. are going to argue that new BattleMech designs, including many that resemble Macross machines in some fashion, have been published over the past two decades without HG doing anything, so they can't suddenly launch a lawsuit over these latest designs. "If you have such a big problem with it, why'd you let me do it for so long?"
6. (Waiver) - This is an odd one. It says that the plaintiff, at some point, outright and knowingly relinquished its rights. "You said right here that you'd let me do it."
7. (Authorized Use, License, Consent, Acquiescence) - In this case, this appears to be reinforcing the estoppel clause. "Seriously, it's been twenty years, and I thought we were cool."
8. (Innocent Intent) - Obvious. "We're just doing our own thing here."
9. (No Willful Infringement) - Obvious. "We seriously are not trying to rip you off."
10. (First Amendment) - Obvious. "What we're saying here is protected by the Constitution."
11. (Copyright Misuse) - And now we're getting back into the real challenge. PGI is really going after HG's copyrights in a big way. "You've abused your claims on these copyrights."
12. (Scenes a Faire Doctrine) - This is an interesting doctrine. Basically, it says that you cannot copyright basic tropes of a given genre. So George Lucas couldn't claim copyright on the idea of spaceships or robots in Star Wars, Louis L'amour couldn't claim six-guns in his western novels, etc. In this case, you can't claim the very concept of "giant warrior robots;" mecha define and are a key part of their genre.
13. (Merger Doctrine) - This builds on the above. If a certain specific trope has become intertwined with a given genre, you can't claim copyright on it. This is getting into the real specifics, so an example could be "humanoid giant warrior robots." In other words, while your mecha don't have to be humanoid, nobody can claim copyright over the idea anyway.
14. (Lack of Ownership) - Salvos fired! Bluntly, PGI is saying that HG doesn't own appropriate copyrights at all. This can be taken two ways. 1) "These are my original works, and you don't own them." 2) "You don't actually own the copyrights you claim." I'm not sure which is correct here, honestly. I suspect, in this context, it's the latter.
15. (Lack of Standing) - Nukes launched! "You can't even compare the Marauder and Officer's Battle Pod, because you don't have any proper claim on the OBP."
16. (No Basis for Injunction) - And back to the basic, standard defenses. "I didn't affect your business, you can't prove any damages, and I don't owe you anything."
Is that true for Copyright? It is certainly not true for patents (you can wait as long as you like to sue, at least until the patent expires), but it is true for trademarks, which must be vigorously defended.
What is the standard for Copyright? I had thought it was more lax that the trademark enforcement requirement.
While copyrights do not have to be defended, it is a good idea to do so. See "estoppel," above. If you've allowed supposed infringement to go on for a long time, someone can claim that their specific infringement is tacitly approved. You'll still own your copyright, but it'll have been weakened. Basically, copyrights lie somewhere between patents and trademarks. For those saying copyright law could use revision, you're absolutely correct, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.
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ColBosch, what do you think will happen if PGI wins the full case?
What will the long term consequences be for both sides?
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i would assume that it would depend on how they win. if the case is thrown out (like HG's suit against Hasbro was) the result is likely to be be different than if it goes to jury andit is found that the MWO/IMR designs don't infringe, as would the result of the case being decided based on the Japanese IP rights ruling and how it effects HG license.
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ColBosch, what do you think will happen if PGI wins the full case?
What will the long term consequences be for both sides?
That's beyond my limited knowledge of law, and perhaps falls into the realm of fortune telling. :D There are a lot of possible outcomes, and some of the consequences just cannot be predicted.
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PGI is claiming sixteen points of defense...
Good, I'm glad PGI has a spine. Go for the kill, put down these ****** bullies.
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10. (First Amendment) - Obvious. "What we're saying here is protected by the Constitution."
All the other ones I see a case on (I am most definitely not a lawyer, but to a layman lik miself, sounds legit), this one seems like they're just throwing everything but the kitchen sink into it. Where was this a government censorship case? HG isn't Congress (Thank heaven!), and can sue for any damnfool reason they like without it being a First Amendment violation.
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I thought I'd posted this last night, but I was at the bar for a while and probably forgot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLtlynQrG6c
That's SidAlpha talking about the case. Nothing new - in fact, most of the information is from notes I sent him and documents we've already seen - but it's good to get the signal boosted. I'll admit, I was surprised by the amount of vitriol leveled against Harmony Gold in the comments. I'd honestly lost track of them for some time, and didn't realize how much hate they've accrued among anime fans.
All the other ones I see a case on (I am most definitely not a lawyer, but to a layman lik miself, sounds legit), this one seems like they're just throwing everything but the kitchen sink into it. Where was this a government censorship case? HG isn't Congress (Thank heaven!), and can sue for any damnfool reason they like without it being a First Amendment violation.
As we move further into the Information Age, the definition of what the First Amendment protects is evolving. I believe the defense will be that because Harmony Gold was granted improper copyrights under US law, their use of the copyrights to beat down competition constitutes "chilling" of free speech.
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All the other ones I see a case on (I am most definitely not a lawyer, but to a layman lik miself, sounds legit), this one seems like they're just throwing everything but the kitchen sink into it. Where was this a government censorship case? HG isn't Congress (Thank heaven!), and can sue for any damnfool reason they like without it being a First Amendment violation.
I suspect that the basis of the free speech argument ties to the defense that HG doesn't actually have the copyrights they claim they have, and are thus are using "fake copyrights" to suppress free speech across an industry. In effect calling them out as copyright trolls much like the cases that I noticed a year or two ago where some companies with reasonably deep pockets were starting to fight back against the patient trolls who were claiming that these huge wide nonspecific patents were being infringed upon as people developed specific technologies because the supposed patent owners were "owning an idea" even though they had no interest or ability to exploit or use the idea, all they were doing is sueine people people who try to actually develop the technology (IE cash grab and nothing more)
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The lawyers on both sides seem competent enough. I doubt either will pull any major goofs, like trusting a jury to pay attention to tiny differences in artwork alone. Piranha's response really is pushing the idea that Harmony Gold doesn't have valid copyrights to begin with.
PGI is claiming sixteen points of defense. I think it's worth going through them and giving my opinions on each. Of course, I am not an attorney, so don't take any of the below as legal advice.
1. (Failure to State a Claim for Relief) - This is a standard defense. Basically, it says "we didn't do anything wrong, so we don't owe you anything." It has nothing to do with dollar values, because at this stage the amount desired by the plaintiff hasn't been established.
2. (Noninfringement) - This is obvious. "We didn't rip you off, so we don't owe you anything."
3. (Invalidity or Unenforceability of Copyright) - Shots fired. "Your claimed copyrights are BS."
4. (Fair Use) - Fairly standard defense. "If there happens to be mention of your copyrighted material, it is limited to instances covered by Fair Use Doctrine."
5. (Estoppel) - This had me stumped for a bit. Estoppel basically means that if you allow something for a while, you can't suddenly change your mind about it. I believe that Piranha et al. are going to argue that new BattleMech designs, including many that resemble Macross machines in some fashion, have been published over the past two decades without HG doing anything, so they can't suddenly launch a lawsuit over these latest designs. "If you have such a big problem with it, why'd you let me do it for so long?"
6. (Waiver) - This is an odd one. It says that the plaintiff, at some point, outright and knowingly relinquished its rights. "You said right here that you'd let me do it."
7. (Authorized Use, License, Consent, Acquiescence) - In this case, this appears to be reinforcing the estoppel clause. "Seriously, it's been twenty years, and I thought we were cool."
8. (Innocent Intent) - Obvious. "We're just doing our own thing here."
9. (No Willful Infringement) - Obvious. "We seriously are not trying to rip you off."
10. (First Amendment) - Obvious. "What we're saying here is protected by the Constitution."
11. (Copyright Misuse) - And now we're getting back into the real challenge. PGI is really going after HG's copyrights in a big way. "You've abused your claims on these copyrights."
12. (Scenes a Faire Doctrine) - This is an interesting doctrine. Basically, it says that you cannot copyright basic tropes of a given genre. So George Lucas couldn't claim copyright on the idea of spaceships or robots in Star Wars, Louis L'amour couldn't claim six-guns in his western novels, etc. In this case, you can't claim the very concept of "giant warrior robots;" mecha define and are a key part of their genre.
13. (Merger Doctrine) - This builds on the above. If a certain specific trope has become intertwined with a given genre, you can't claim copyright on it. This is getting into the real specifics, so an example could be "humanoid giant warrior robots." In other words, while your mecha don't have to be humanoid, nobody can claim copyright over the idea anyway.
14. (Lack of Ownership) - Salvos fired! Bluntly, PGI is saying that HG doesn't own appropriate copyrights at all. This can be taken two ways. 1) "These are my original works, and you don't own them." 2) "You don't actually own the copyrights you claim." I'm not sure which is correct here, honestly. I suspect, in this context, it's the latter.
15. (Lack of Standing) - Nukes launched! "You can't even compare the Marauder and Officer's Battle Pod, because you don't have any proper claim on the OBP."
16. (No Basis for Injunction) - And back to the basic, standard defenses. "I didn't affect your business, you can't prove any damages, and I don't owe you anything."
While copyrights do not have to be defended, it is a good idea to do so. See "estoppel," above. If you've allowed supposed infringement to go on for a long time, someone can claim that their specific infringement is tacitly approved. You'll still own your copyright, but it'll have been weakened. Basically, copyrights lie somewhere between patents and trademarks. For those saying copyright law could use revision, you're absolutely correct, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.
Okay so let me start by saying I am a lawyer licensed to practice in MA but I do not do copyright law which is very specialised field.
Basically what is going on here is you have to put down every thing you are going to argue in your pleadings at the start of the case otherwise you can not raise them latter hence 16 points.
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Guess we need you to learn a new field then so you can keep us informed on more specific details :P
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Considering the boondoggle Robotech Tactics turned into? I doubt anyone wants to touch minis rights ATM.
It's a real shame that HG can't do anything outside of sue the opposition.
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It's a real shame that HG can't do anything outside of sue the opposition.
Why should they? Their whole business model (if you want to call it that) for the IP seems to simply sitting on it and suing as many people as they can so they can rake in settlement money. The only problem with that is that eventually someone will call your bluff. (As PGI seems to be doing.)
So now it just depends on how hard HG wants to pursue the matter.
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Okay so let me start by saying I am a lawyer licensed to practice in MA but I do not do copyright law which is very specialised field.
Basically what is going on here is you have to put down every thing you are going to argue in your pleadings at the start of the case otherwise you can not raise them latter hence 16 points.
That makes sense, but the responses also include notes to effect of "we reserve the right to amend or modify our defenses at a later date," just as Harmony Gold listed "John Doe" defendants and reserved their own right to revise their lawsuit. Indeed, HG has already issued an amended complaint, moving beyond the initial three likenesses claimed (which I suspect they'll drop) for 'Mechs like the "nuSeen" Marauder and Warhammer art by both Piranha and CGL.
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So clearly HG is going after PGI because they are now linked to HBS who's CEO is Jordan. Wouldnt the original out of court deal be with FASA corp and not an individual even though an individual signed it? So they can't really go after HBS and say oh you signed this in 1996..when it really was FASA which is no longer a company?
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So clearly HG is going after PGI because they are now linked to HBS who's CEO is Jordan. Wouldnt the original out of court deal be with FASA corp and not an individual even though an individual signed it? So they can't really go after HBS and say oh you signed this in 1996..when it really was FASA which is no longer a company?
No, if Jordan signed the agreement as an individual, the contract would still apply to him. PGI even admitted it. Their defense is that the contract doesn't apply, because of all the defenses they've listed.
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ColBosch: Thanks for the detailed, and specific explanation, and translation into layman's terms!
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I am doing my best, but I have almost certainly made some mistakes.
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I think it is interesting how aggressive PGI is being. The 'mech images on the MWO site at different angles provide a much different take versus what was shown in the HG document. The closest is really the Archer.
As mrbooth said, if they need to include everything now, they might as well go for broke. They have legs to stand on -- how solid they are I don't know -- but those legs are there.
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In my understanding PGI could have tried to take the easy way out and dodge the suit by claim the court has no jurisdiction (PGI being a Canadian entity) and have the suit thrown out that way. However, PGI has effectively said "bring it on" by accepting that the court has jurisdiction and they are already prepared with their arguments as to the "copyright" that the Not-Name Corporation has over the Macross unseen, so we may finally get a definitive result to the classics that will allow PGI/HBS/Jordan/CGL/et al to actually move forward with Battletech (one way or the other).
Would it be ironic if the defendents quoted the precedent set by FASA vs Playmates as part of their defence?
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Guess we need you to learn a new field then so you can keep us informed on more specific details :P
He is not alone. Another blackbird interested in the field thanks to this (and some Eve Online problems too). Its a good excersive too, as i have to learn more about USA Copyright Law.
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Just glad to see someone that won't be bullied by those IP trolls. May the court slap them hard in the face.
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Here is a question for those who actually practice law. Since this suit includes PGI, HBS, Jordan Weisman, and IMR/CGL does the judgement or dismissal affect all defendants or is each entity treated individually? I noticed that the same bunch of lawyers represent HBS and PGI (CGL is an unknown I believe).
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
I really like this. Thanks! (I saw it on the facebook group). ^-^
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
Some interesting stuff in there, but not a lot that sheds new light on this lawsuit.
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Some interesting stuff in there, but not a lot that sheds new light on this lawsuit.
That was never the intention of the work although it certainly covers the numerous legal actions. The genesis was to collect all of the original presentations of the Battledroids and present them in one place. I also wrote it to provide context for those individuals who are interested in the origins of BattleTech and how it has changed since its inception.
I did find of it interest that specific details and wording from the 1996 "Settlement Agreement" with FASA are now out in the wild. I was also surprised to find out the HG discovered the MWO 'Mechs via the Catalyst Game Labs website rather than directly from the MWO site itself. It's enough to make me wonder if they make it a point to keep an eye on Jordan Weisman.
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Oh, I'm down with what you've done, but I was questioning why you posted it here, rather than in its own thread.
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Oh, I'm down with what you've done, but I was questioning why you posted it here, rather than in its own thread.
I've been consistently surprised by how many people aren't clear on what the entire "Unseen" issue even is. That said, your right, somehow I suspect the people on this thread are well aware of the history :)
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To both of you: thank you! I was away from the game for almost 20 years before coming back in the last year or so. You've filled in pretty much all the past and present legal story blanks for me. Quite the tale and it is still being written.
The image comparisons are very interesting. Some hold up, but some others not so much. I will be very interested to see how this all shakes out. Hopefully in our favor of course ;)
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Here is a question for those who actually practice law. Since this suit includes PGI, HBS, Jordan Weisman, and IMR/CGL does the judgement or dismissal affect all defendants or is each entity treated individually? I noticed that the same bunch of lawyers represent HBS and PGI (CGL is an unknown I believe).
Findings and orders could include any number of defendants and don't have to include all of them. It's pretty common for there to be multiple findings and orders that apply to different groups of parties in a case. There is nothing about being tried together that means any of the defendants are guaranteed to have the same outcome.
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
Thank you to you and those that helped with this project! Certainly something I will have to read cover to cover when I get the time.
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No, if Jordan signed the agreement as an individual, the contract would still apply to him. PGI even admitted it. Their defense is that the contract doesn't apply, because of all the defenses they've listed.
That sounds insane. Isn't the whole point of a corporation is to protect you, so people cant go after you directly? Why wasnt the deal struck with FASA.
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Here is a question for those who actually practice law. Since this suit includes PGI, HBS, Jordan Weisman, and IMR/CGL does the judgement or dismissal affect all defendants or is each entity treated individually? I noticed that the same bunch of lawyers represent HBS and PGI (CGL is an unknown I believe).
If it can be proved in court that HG doesn't hold the rights anymore which I believe is one of the defence this will stop any further claims as this case becomes legal presidence meaning if they ever tried this again they would refer to this case and have the judge throw it out.
In short if HG loses this case (which is looking likely) then they won't be able to do this to anyone again.
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In short if HG loses this case (which is looking likely) then they won't be able to do this to anyone again.
There is no "likely" at this stage of affairs. PGI and HBS have only filed their responses to the lawsuit, using general terms, and we do not have any idea what their specific defenses and evidence will be. For that matter, we haven't seen any formal evidence from HG, either; their comparisons of the mecha involved are meant to show the court that they have some basis for their lawsuit. IMR is currently in a state of default, having not responded in the 30 days required. IMR has to lawyer up and respond, and then things will move on. At some point the attorneys for both sides will meet and discuss ways this suit can avoid trial, and I expect HG to file a motion for summary judgement - not that I think it'll be granted, but it seems to be a typical step. If this goes to trial, there is a very real chance that the ruling will affirm HG's copyrights even if they dismiss the specific claimed infringements.
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
Well that was quite an interesting read.
While I knew parts of this over the years, this paper helped clarify some of what I didn't know.
Thank you.
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
Thank you for this document. Just make sure HG doesn't sue over the images :P
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If this goes to trial, there is a very real chance that the ruling will affirm HG's copyrights even if they dismiss the specific claimed infringements.
One weird question -- what would happen if this scenario were to occur? Let's say Cacophony Pyrite gets its precioussss copyrightses, BUT the court throws out the infringement claims on the Classics? Would Cacophony Pyrite FINALLY AND AT LAST be forced to call it a day with their harassment of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst and go off into the sunset? Or would this just be "not a peace, but an armistice for 20 years" and Cacophony Pyrite might try a Round 3 somewhere down the line?
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Even if HG had left things alone I don't see the re-imagined art ever changing after this. To say, if CGL et al won against the claim the current set of images probably could not be sued against again except by appeal. My thoughts anyway.
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Even if HG had left things alone I don't see the re-imagined art ever changing after this. To say, if CGL et al won against the claim the current set of images probably could not be sued against again except by appeal. My thoughts anyway.
I am wondering, if HG loses their false rights, are they then open to being sued for all the economic damage that they have caused?
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I am wondering, if HG loses their false rights, are they then open to being sued for all the economic damage that they have caused?
How much I would love for Cacophony Pyrite (what I'm insisting on calling them from now on) to get a good spoonful of their own medicine, but I doubt it. It'd be too expensive for the return on the money or even the vengeance, methinks.
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Didn't the HG vs Hasbro suit in 2002(?) set precedent that HG's copyright was invalid?
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I am wondering, if HG loses their false rights, are they then open to being sued for all the economic damage that they have caused?
Not to mention the mental anguish to the fans! That should be worth a class action suit in itself! ;)
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I would surely like to see HG's iron-grasp on Macross broken, but I don't think I'd bet the future of Battletech on it happening in this suit. We have no way of knowing whether those claims are a serious threat, or just a bargaining chip for settlement negotiations.
I would be perfectly happy to accept a settlement which leaves us at something like status quo ante.
(I also hope IMR/CGL lawyer up fast, and avoid default judgement - Without a public statement or action, there is no guarantee that they actually will.)
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I would surely like to see HG's iron-grasp on Macross broken, but I don't think I'd bet the future of Battletech on it happening in this suit. We have no way of knowing whether those claims are a serious threat, or just a bargaining chip for settlement negotiations.
I would be perfectly happy to accept a settlement which leaves us at something like status quo ante.
(I also hope IMR/CGL lawyer up fast, and avoid default judgement - Without a public statement or action, there is no guarantee that they actually will.)
Buy the old Japanese art and call it a day, tell HG to suck an egg.
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Not to get off topic but that heavy attack e frame couldn't be any more of a rip off of the mad cat. The Mad Cat II looks like it was based off the playmates design
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Didn't the HG vs Hasbro suit in 2002(?) set precedent that HG's copyright was invalid?
No. That case was settled out of court. (And it was from 2013.)
I am wondering, if HG loses their false rights, are they then open to being sued for all the economic damage that they have caused?
I don't believe so, but the ensuing battle over Robotech itself would be pretty epic. I don't realistically expect the copyrights to be cancelled, however.
One weird question -- what would happen if this scenario were to occur? Let's say Cacophony Pyrite gets its precioussss copyrightses, BUT the court throws out the infringement claims on the Classics? Would Cacophony Pyrite FINALLY AND AT LAST be forced to call it a day with their harassment of FASA/Fanpro/Catalyst and go off into the sunset? Or would this just be "not a peace, but an armistice for 20 years" and Cacophony Pyrite might try a Round 3 somewhere down the line?
Harmony Gold would not be allowed to refile a suit over those specific images, but could claim infringement on future works. That's reasonable, as if they were told "you can't sue ever again," technically nothing would stop PGI/IMR from turning around and going back to the old anime art.
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Harmony Gold would not be allowed to refile a suit over those specific images, but could claim infringement on future works.
That's what I was getting at -- I think the original anime art is a dead letter and should remain a dead letter never to be revisited -- I just wanted to clarify if what you opined could conceivably happen, that we'd not be at status quo ante where Cacophony Pyrite could come back later and take another whack at the pinata over the same art. In other words -- CGL et. al would be free to use the Classics as they stand without harassment, so long as nobody takes leave of their senses and goes back to the original Macross designs again.
That's pretty much what you said up above, in which case the BT side of me could live with that (and the Macross side of me would hope that lawyers get crackin' to enforce the Japanese ruling... so that all the cool Macross gear could legally be sold in the US without CP's interference...)
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Yeah, I don't actually believe that BattleTech would go back to the anime art. As Sigil's fanbook shows, it's always been an albatross around BT's neck. I think the game is better without it, frankly.
I really can't say what would happen if HG lost its rights to the anime. Honestly, it would be such a massive blow that I'd expect a decade of appeals. There's trademarks, international contracts, movie rights, and all sorts of licenses that would suddenly be put into limbo.
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The original anime art that FASA had license to was nice for its time, but now all we need are the re-imagined stuff. There should be enough differences that HG has a broken leg to stand on this time. Too bad we can't get the judge FASA had to deal with during the Playmates case.
As for the RT movie, did it even mention which of the three RT arcs it was based on? Macross, Southern Cross, or Invid Invasion? Of the three only the Invid arc has really had any movement over the past decade that I am aware of (though I don't really keep track of it).
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From what I've seen elsewhere, it would have to be Macross for the visual recognition. Note how many times models, toys, and miniatures have been released of its mecha vs. the Mospeada and Southern Cross stuff.
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True, but I had a bigger collection of Genesis Climber. Green and Red Alpha, Blue Beta, as well as the Invid stuff and a pair of Cyclones. Only toys I had for Macross was the Veritech and M.A.C. II
But with that comparison I remember my GoBots and Mask TOYS more than I remember the shows. And I enjoyed both shows. This isn't the 80s anymore though, toys are harder to sell now than they used to be for a series. Children are far more fickle it seems and fads don't stick around as much as they used to.
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From what I've seen elsewhere, it would have to be Macross for the visual recognition. Note how many times models, toys, and miniatures have been released of its mecha vs. the Mospeada and Southern Cross stuff.
The problem is that if they do that then they've automatically lit the fuse on the Big One -- Big West/Studio Nue v. Tatsunoko/Harmony Gold, Round 2. Sony would demand an international release, and HG's "copyright" nonsense only plays in the US. The moment it hits the Japanese archipelago with VF-1 Valkyries and Regults an the Macross herself, it's all over but the cans of whup-ass being opened. Hell, the moment it opens in CANADIAN theaters, it may be game over.
Now, maybe they're hoping that Sony's aprons would be big enough to hide behind if they do decide to chance it, but I doubt it because it would still be a titanic risk.
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To be honest, if the Robotech Live-Action film gets seriously out of Development Hell, the fuse would of been lit. Regardless of 'when' it would take place, especially if a variation of Macross is used.
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Sony may be counting on getting the Macross license for non-US regions. Or they're just playing their usual "option a script to squat on the rights" shtick, which I think is far more likely here. In any case, even if HG thinks the movie is important, it's not. I don't think it's even pertinent to this discussion, unless and until Sony joins the lawsuit.
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The movie division of Sony hasn't been doing so well the last few years (bar a few exceptions).
So they might not take the risk if they hear bad news.
But then again HG is more then capable of souring their relationship with Sony themselves.
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For those of you who are interested, here's a link to my latest work, a research project ironically entitled "Unseen."
https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf (https://wlu.box.com/shared/static/5yubptf7u0c0hp3m82a47xcfglmcnydd.pdf)
As the artist (and still owner) of both the Ostroc and Ostscout miniatures shown in the document, I can verify they are original Ral Partha versions.
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As the artist (and still owner) of both the Ostroc and Ostscout miniatures shown in the document, I can verify they are original Ral Partha versions.
Thanks for the verification! If you would send me a PM, I'd love to give you name credit in the captions of those two images as well as under "Special Thanks." Awesome paint jobs too, btw ;)
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Unless HG is using this siut to GAIN the new artwork for use in the movie. Sue for settlement then demand ownership for all the art so it can be used in the movie to AVOID the potential issues outside the US. That might be another way to look at it.
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No, whatever the outcome, it won't overrule the previous rulings in Japan.
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You know at this point they might as well have stayed with the project Phoenix designs and the primitives and called it a day.
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You know at this point they might as well have stayed with the project Phoenix designs and the primitives and called it a day.
No where is that like button? Ooops, there isn't one. I guess this will have to do. O0
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In the end, some of the classics may go to pasture same as the Alpha Strike box did. Speaking of which, there was even someone asking about that on the HBS forums lol
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Primitives don't cover all Macross-based 'Mechs. And using Project Phoenix for old versions would cause some unnecessary retconning ("we made new versions of old 'Mechs to satisfy the need for NewTech, except the new versions look just like old ones! YES, we sold them the same things but with modern equipment buahaha. BTW we work for Word of Blake kk thx bye").
And the biggest thing of all, neither feels quite right. The PP Marauder isn't a bad design but it isn't something i'd call Marauder. The BattleAx and Hammerhands are posited as Warhammer predecessors but neither really feels like one when it comes to looks. The primitive Rifleman works with modified arms, and maybe the Wasp (but we still need Stinger and Valkyrie). Then you have something like the Archer that looks just weird in its primitive form.
Maybe this would work had they just retconned the Project Phoenix looks as being what the unseen always looked like, rather than claiming the old versions exists but got facelift in 3060s. Can't really make that change anymore. Especially not now since we've had a taste of new looks.
In the end, some of the classics may go to pasture same as the Alpha Strike box did. Speaking of which, there was even someone asking about that on the HBS forums lol
The AS box was never announced officially, so it can't have been cancelled either exactly, strictly speaking.
I would guess that if Catalyst were planning a new iteration of the box set, it likely would've included starter rules for both standard BT and AS, or guided player to download alternative rule set for one. Making a separate box for both games never seemed that useful IMO.
Of course, if there is/was plans for a new box set, the lawsuit has thrown all plans into disarray. We now know it is probably the reason IWM's classic-Wasp release went the way it did, logically this would affect a box set if it was planned to have classics.
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But they are. Nobody is going to go back and use the old anime art now as it was never in-house work. The only ones complaining are the stick in the mud fans that think someone is going to stop them from playing a game of proxies. I'm one of those fans too, but I'm loving the new redesigns and wish they could have been released faster. I don't see SUV and minivan makers suing each other over the fact that all of them look like glossy boxes with 4 wheels and chrome.
No where is that like button? Ooops, there isn't one. I guess this will have to do. O0
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But they are. Nobody is going to go back and use the old anime art now as it was never in-house work. The only ones complaining are the stick in the mud fans that think someone is going to stop them from playing a game of proxies. I'm one of those fans too, but I'm loving the new redesigns and wish they could have been released faster. I don't see SUV and minivan makers suing each other over the fact that all of them look like glossy boxes with 4 wheels and chrome.
And as a further expanding of that thought as part of a real world legally binding agreement the Classics have not looked like the old Macross designs for over 20 years. So the retcon has already happened. It is time for people to get on board with the idea that these designs don't look like that anymore, haven't for a while, and are so unlikely to even if this case goes as favorably for PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as it possibly can that even calling it wishful thinking is being far too generous.
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I think the big thing is that PGI/IMR are tired of what they regard as a copyright troll dictating what they can and cannot do, especially when their claimed copyrights may not actually be valid.
BattleTech will never go back to using the Unseen images. Not only were they made for someone else, they're badly dated these days. The companies just want to do new art and close that door forever, and here's HG shoving their foot in the way for no good reason.
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I agree to the point that I do honestly feel it would do more damage to Battletech to go back even if the option were legally/technically available.
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I just meant that this in hindsight seems like a case of the juice not being worth the squeeze. To be clear I thought the classic designs were pretty much tits also.
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But they are. Nobody is going to go back and use the old anime art now as it was never in-house work. The only ones complaining are the stick in the mud fans that think someone is going to stop them from playing a game of proxies. I'm one of those fans too, but I'm loving the new redesigns and wish they could have been released faster. I don't see SUV and minivan makers suing each other over the fact that all of them look like glossy boxes with 4 wheels and chrome.
I totally agree with you on this. I got into Battletech in my younger days on the backs of the unseen (every mini I had back then was unseen.) And as much as I miss those, I am loving the new classics. With all this HG mess, I went and got myself a copy of First Succession War and I am so glad I did. The new art is fantastic. Plus, HG can go pound sand when it comes to the Wasp and the Valkyrie. The new art looks nothing like the Macross designs. Yet they still look familiar enough to invoke those warm fuzzy memories. So keep Battletech moving forward, with a 'tip of the hat' to the past, and leave HG in the dust. But don't be afraid to punch them in the stomach if they're asking for it... }:)
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not sure if CGL can sit on its hands until 2019 and wait for all of this to sort out, even if the classics were a big part of their product plans going forward. i don't consider an empty victory that left the line to rot on the vine while we waited to be much of a success.
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And as a further expanding of that thought as part of a real world legally binding agreement the Classics have not looked like the old Macross designs for over 20 years. So the retcon has already happened. It is time for people to get on board with the idea that these designs don't look like that anymore, haven't for a while, and are so unlikely to even if this case goes as favorably for PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as it possibly can that even calling it wishful thinking is being far too generous.
I don't think it is about the classics not looking like the unseen. At least, it is not for me. The issue is the classics lacking art at all, as their nature as the first of BattleMechs (IRL) demands them having artistic representation.
And for consistency's sake, the Project Phoenix is not that representation. The art would have served, had the PP been written differently. But alas, that opportunity is gone now, so now they need separate art. Fortunately are getting art, for most part anyway. If not for damn HG...
(Seriously, even though i don't think the PP really match up to their originals, i would have accepted them as the classics had they been retconned before the new art. Going back now would be... well, highly disappointing.)
not sure if CGL can sit on its hands until 2019 and wait for all of this to sort out, even if the classics were a big part of their product plans going forward. i don't consider an empty victory that left the line to rot on the vine while we waited to be much of a success.
I figure CGL will go onward with the non-Macross new classics. Those should not have any issues probably, given that they're already used in a couple of books.
Macross-classics will have to wait till the lawsuit is solved, though i reckon a possibility of replacing the art yet again with something clear non-derivative art (eg derive it from Project Phoenix instead with heavy alterations) will be explored.
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Yeah, never an official one, just that it was an idea in the works and that a Company v Binary was going to be in it. Found the unofficial announcement for it yesterday by Adrian back in 2015. Probably why so many stupid stores still have it listed as pre-order.
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Hopefully in the meantime they can do something like shifting to CM: Marik where they could do Ostsol, Scorpion, Wolverine 6m reprint, and then Thunderbolt reprint....or do Liao with Thunderbolt reprint, Goliath, Ostroc, and one other reprint.
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I don't think it is about the classics not looking like the unseen. At least, it is not for me. The issue is the classics lacking art at all, as their nature as the first of BattleMechs (IRL) demands them having artistic representation.
And for consistency's sake, the Project Phoenix is not that representation. The art would have served, had the PP been written differently. But alas, that opportunity is gone now, so now they need separate art. Fortunately are getting art, for most part anyway. If not for damn HG...
(Seriously, even though i don't think the PP really match up to their originals, i would have accepted them as the classics had they been retconned before the new art. Going back now would be... well, highly disappointing.)
I figure CGL will go onward with the non-Macross new classics. Those should not have any issues probably, given that they're already used in a couple of books.
Macross-classics will have to wait till the lawsuit is solved, though i reckon a possibility of replacing the art yet again with something clear non-derivative art (eg derive it from Project Phoenix instead with heavy alterations) will be explored.
I completely agree that the opportunity was wasted. Yeah I get art is subjective and can even accept that the PP art doesn't float everyone's boat but it would have been a lot better to have made the art retcon then and there and been done with it.
So that there is finally a full on retcon to give new art and life to some mechs has pleased me greatly.
IMR/CGL in this current round of legal mess does need to get a motion filled soon to set aside the default judgement. The longer that is in effect the worse and harder it will be for IMR/CGL to fight this fight and simply doing nothing is very unwise.
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So clearly HG is going after PGI because they are now linked to HBS who's CEO is Jordan. Wouldnt the original out of court deal be with FASA corp and not an individual even though an individual signed it? So they can't really go after HBS and say oh you signed this in 1996..when it really was FASA which is no longer a company?
Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.
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FASA is like a weird zombie corporation. It is kinda undead... It is not active per se but neither it is defunct. Right?
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Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.
It's not the same FASA though (basically, it is in name only, as I don't believe anyone that was working there during the '80s/'90s is still connected with the new company; Jordan Weisman certainly isn't). And for the record Topps owns both BattleTech and Shadowrun (with Microsoft owning the electronic rights to BattleTech). The only thing the new FASA owns from the old FASA days is the Earthdawn game, which is no longer connected with the Shadowrun universe in any way, shape or form.
(Basically from what I can tell, it's like the company I work for: was created over a hundred years ago. They still boast of that, but it's gone through several different owners. They don't even make the same products they did back when it first opened, but they still claim it is the same exact company, even though the only thing that's the same is the name.)
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I don't believe so, but the ensuing battle over Robotech itself would be pretty epic. I don't realistically expect the copyrights to be cancelled, however.
Robotech would be fine--the big question is would they lose the trademark on macross. If that happens, then they lose the ability to prevent Macross material from being brought into hte US and would have a very uphill battle when it came to sueing for violations of robotech's IP,which would become a far smaller, shallower pool.
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I think at this point they only have distribution rights for Robotech only. They cannot legally create new ip art or story using Macross as the base. They are allowed for Southern Cross and Mospeada since that's with Tatsunoko from what I've read online. The thing is Sony's movie will definately have to touch upon the origin of a crashed giant spaceship in the Pacific and the plucky heros that fly transformable planes who find it.
Robotech would be fine--the big question is would they lose the trademark on macross. If that happens, then they lose the ability to prevent Macross material from being brought into hte US and would have a very uphill battle when it came to sueing for violations of robotech's IP,which would become a far smaller, shallower pool.
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I think the big thing is that PGI/IMR are tired of what they regard as a copyright troll dictating what they can and cannot do, especially when their claimed copyrights may not actually be valid.
BattleTech will never go back to using the Unseen images. Not only were they made for someone else, they're badly dated these days. The companies just want to do new art and close that door forever, and here's HG shoving their foot in the way for no good reason.
Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.
We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.
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FASA is like a weird zombie corporation. It is kinda undead... It is not active per se but neither it is defunct. Right?
Don´t get fooled by the outward appearance.
(https://i2.wp.com/media.giphy.com/media/26xBRR9qRGiG7KZfG/source.gif?resize=640%2C272&ssl=1)
The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.
This is not about the unseens anymore, this is about self defense. HG wont stop unless a judge finally tells them to stop.
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Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.
We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.
Economics of Nostalgia. I suspect that they themselves are fans of the franchise as much as we are. Also there alot money to be made with nostalgia. HG has been patten trolls for a long time since they lost their thunder.
Unseens were most functional units of the core part of the game. Redesigning core units of the game was important, i suspect they went with that as means to try keep going. There too many people still locked-into the core era of the game, 3025. Without the unseens, the game's other mechs seem hollow in comparison.
To those companies, i suspect think if they can get around those patten trolls with new designs, it would be profitable.
Problem is if i'm not mistaken, is that HG (I hate them by the way) has to protect what they see as their copyrights or risk losing everything.
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Don´t get fooled by the outward appearance.
(https://i2.wp.com/media.giphy.com/media/26xBRR9qRGiG7KZfG/source.gif?resize=640%2C272&ssl=1)
This is not about the unseens anymore, this is about self defense. HG wont stop unless a judge finally tells them to stop.
How so? As far as I'm aware, HG has only ever reacted with lawsuits or threats, and each time was in response to someone trying to bring an unseen-reminiscent design back into battletech. Let the unseen and all their imitations slip away, and HG's power will be broken. Use the phoenix designs, or make something else that's nothing like the unseen. But let go of the past the expensive past.
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But let go of the past the expensive past.
Well, now the fight is on anyway. No use at the moment to let anything go. If HG wins the unseen will be pretty much gone as you want it, but as how the indictment (hope that is the right term) has been phrased mechs in general are a thing of the past because nothing that looks like a robot will be okay in the mindset of HG´s lawyers. And I don´t think that any judge will let this happen. But in the end we live in crazy times.
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It's worth pointing out that HG are, at heart, a near-criminal organization that colluded with various other dubious entertainment companies to drive up the prices of liscensed TV and movies internationally during the 1970s (at least that's what the Italian investigations found). This isn't a legitimate business that's just made poor choices over the years, this is part of a scam by 1%ers to get even richer than they already were and they basically got away with it for almost forty years. Seeing the courts put the boots to them in a big way would be at least one thing I could point at and say "there is occasionally justice in this life."
I may have loved Robotech as a kid (I was 10 when it aired locally), and yeah, those designs drew me to the game, but I'm in agreement with many posters that the new, Classic designs are superior, and what I'd like to see going forward. I also viscerally dislike the Project Phoenix mechs with only a handful of exceptions, so, there's that, too. In fairness, I pretty much loathe most of the MWDA designs, too. What can I say? The early noughties weren't a great era for mech concepts that fit my tastes, apparently. ;)
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Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.
This argument is backwards.
FASA created the Warhammer BattleMech, its name, backstory, configuration and game rules. The only thing not FASA for the Warhammer is its visual representation. Over two decades of "unseen" have proven that BattleTech is its own artistic entity, and that it doesn't hinge on the imagery in question. (Using the Warhammer here as a stand-in for all Unseen.)
What FASA, later FanPro and then IMR/CGL did was to try and fill the hole in BattleTech that Harmony Gold punched. They backfilled the hole with designs that, in my uninformed layman opinion, share no copyrightable similarities with the original IP.
...and even that's only relevant if and when Harmony Gold can prove that they have the rights in question. In the light of the often-cited Japanese court ruling from 2003 it is entirely thinkable that a US court will rule that HG either doesn't have these rights, or at least doesn't have the right to sue others for infringement. That, to me, is the vastly more interesting aspect of the new case.
We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.
You're lumping in the 'Mechs with their unseen artwork. The 'Mechs in question cannot and will not go away, as they are the bedrock of BattleTech. And that's why they need some form of visual representation.
After the 1996 settlement, that visual representation cannot be the original Japanese mecha. But sufficiently different mecha in the BattleTech style must, and - in my opinion - can be created and used for BattleTech. Harmony Gold at this point isn't protecting their own rights so much as they're trying to take the entire BattleTech universe hostage. And that's absolutely worth fighting over, especially when the court battle looks as if it could be won.
It's worth pointing out that HG are, at heart, a near-criminal organization that colluded with various other dubious entertainment companies to drive up the prices of liscensed TV and movies internationally during the 1970s (at least that's what the Italian investigations found). This isn't a legitimate business that's just made poor choices over the years, this is part of a scam by 1%ers to get even richer than they already were and they basically got away with it for almost forty years. Seeing the courts put the boots to them in a big way would be at least one thing I could point at and say "there is occasionally justice in this life."
They own certain IPs (or they don't - courts will have to decide that). The lawsuit is not a beauty contest, and if or to what extent anyone likes or dislikes either party is legally irrelevant. It's not the question the court will have to decide.
Does anyone else here remember the days when FASA was slammed as FA$A among roleplayers for their perceived crackdown on third parties who made (too) free use of FASA's BattleTech, Shadowrun and other IPs?
If Harmony Gold is in the right, then by all means, they are. My gut feeling says they aren't. But again, that's for the court to decide. Torches, pitchforks, tar & feathers have no place here.
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Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.
BattleTech and Shadowrun were purchased by WizKids, then moved over to Topps when they bought WizKids. The current iteration of FASA holds the IP for Earthdawn, they have zero to do with BattleTech and Shadowrun.
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As the artist (and still owner) of both the Ostroc and Ostscout miniatures shown in the document, I can verify they are original Ral Partha versions.
Are the Ral Partha the same sculpts as the IWM versions, or were the IWM versions resculpted?
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And as a further expanding of that thought as part of a real world legally binding agreement the Classics have not looked like the old Macross designs for over 20 years. So the retcon has already happened. It is time for people to get on board with the idea that these designs don't look like that anymore, haven't for a while, and are so unlikely to even if this case goes as favorably for PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as it possibly can that even calling it wishful thinking is being far too generous.
Please don't start a rehash of that argument in this thread.
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We already lost mw5 over this...
No, we most certainly did not. The teaser video that HG had IGN remove was not really meant for public consumption. It was meant for potential investors. Smith and Tinker was unable to raise enough funds, and so MechWarrior was shelved until Piranha came along.
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The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.
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The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.
From what little I've heard about both licenses...it seems that both FASA and HG both bought their license from a company that very likely didn't have the right to sell it to them. So both were probably bought in good faith but on shaky ground.
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The thing is, the old HG vs. FASA case involved nigh-identical images. Loose and the other artists modified them somewhat, but the Marauder was a Glaug OBP, etc. These new images are fully original works. Note that nobody in the actual court filings uses the term "derivative," because it's meaningless here. Merely being derivative is not enough to be infringing.
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The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/
Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.
Dug this article up by exploring that rabbit hole, and it's and interesting read, even if it is just a summary of the filing.
https://terrania.us/2017/07/23/harmony-gold-has-filed-suit-over-another-battletech-game/
It did have this interesting quote which seems to summarise what grounds HG has over the case. The article also states that supposedly that "scenes a faire" is why the Fasa V Playmates suit was thrown out.
I do have to admit, Harmony Gold’s eagerness to compare the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie does lend credence to the idea that they’re willing to claim infringement by pretty much anything that looks like a giant robot. That’s what the “scenes a faire” doctrine is all about: “The loose definition of scenes a faire refers to situations in which there is essentially no other way to express a particular idea except by using certain elements and in such instances, those elements will often be termed ‘scenes a faire.' In other words, a giant robot is a giant robot is a giant robot.
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I do have to admit, Harmony Gold’s eagerness to compare the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie does lend credence to the idea that they’re willing to claim infringement by pretty much anything that looks like a giant robot. That’s what the “scenes a faire” doctrine is all about: “The loose definition of scenes a faire refers to situations in which there is essentially no other way to express a particular idea except by using certain elements and in such instances, those elements will often be termed ‘scenes a faire.' In other words, a giant robot is a giant robot is a giant robot.
I can't think they'd be that stupid, though (strike that -- I've seen a lot of stupid in my day, I actually believe they COULD be that stupid.). That's a little like GW's insane attempts to sue over any use of the phrase "Space Marine", even though the concept and name predated 40K by decades. So, HG, you guys going to sue Robert Heinlein? Good luck with that.
Althooooooooough... If that is their legal strategy, I'll make the popcorn if they take a swing at GW. That one would be. Sheer. Comedy. Gold.
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Althooooooooough... If that is their legal strategy, I'll make the popcorn if they take a swing at GW. That one would be. Sheer. Comedy. Gold.
This makes me think of one of those Whose Line Is It Anyway scenes. Colin brought up Ryan's nose (long story, a size-thing), and Ryan says "You really want to do this now?" (to be honest, his face said it all). Should what Pat suggests happen, i am somehow imagining Ryan's reaction would be GW's reaction.
No idea if this makes any sense.
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No idea if this makes any sense.
Not really... #P
Anyway, it is interesting to see as more information comes out just how much trouble HG could be in. Could being the opportune word. I wonder if a judge or jury could find HG's behavior predatory -- eg. trademarking the name Macross in the US to block distribution, but intellectual property rights still belong with Big West. Not to mention, the various story ideas that HG came up with for RoboTech have little to do with the actual Macross storyline.
Furthermore, if derivations or homages to the Macross designs are a problem for HG, what about C-3PO and other protocol droids when compared to Fritz Lang's Metropolis?
Any word on IMR/CGL getting a lawyer?
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Furthermore, if derivations or homages to the Macross designs are a problem for HG, what about C-3PO and other protocol droids when compared to Fritz Lang's Metropolis?
Heck -- does William Shakespeare have any descendants? They could make some lawyers very busy as half of Western Literature could be seen as a derivative work on one or another Shakespeare play...
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Heck -- does William Shakespeare have any descendants? They could make some lawyers very busy as half of Western Civilization could be seen as a derivative work on one or another Shakespeare play...
Bah! Shakespeare? Ovid and Vergil would like to have a few words with him.
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Bah! Shakespeare? Ovid and Vergil would like to have a few words with him.
Where'd'ya think the OTHER half came from? ;)
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or Ibid.. he wrote everything.. ;D
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or Ibid.. he wrote everything.. ;D
Well played, good sir, well played :)
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or Ibid.. he wrote everything.. ;D
And Anon...he seems almost as prolific...
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Dug this article up by exploring that rabbit hole, and it's and interesting read, even if it is just a summary of the filing.
https://terrania.us/2017/07/23/harmony-gold-has-filed-suit-over-another-battletech-game/
In a few places I find his rant rather stupid and biased against BT. First being focused on how Weisman and HBS fit into this. HBS doesn't have art, or 3D models to license to anymore so they no skin in the real game. The only reason HG would want to include them is over the FASA v HG case and the settlement that Weisman signed. But, the catch there is he doesn't actually have anything to do with licensing the art to anyone nor has he created any new art derived or not. To that end HG had better tip toe around HBS or they could end up getting a countersuit. Considering the others.. It isn't completely unreasonable, but the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, and Locust?? Even if the latter two were identical knock-offs to another animes artwork HG has no basis for a copyright claim and only CGL has a claim (or the artworks author) on the Atlas. It would be a twist of irony if CGL countersued HG over making false claims on THEIR copyrighted work.
Aaaaaand I went off on a rant and lost my train of thought... #P
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HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.
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HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.
Oh! Where?
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Oh! Where?
How 'bout we NOT ask and therefore not do you-know-who's lawyers' work for them.
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Yeah, I guess.
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In a few places I find his rant rather stupid and biased against BT. First being focused on how Weisman and HBS fit into this. HBS doesn't have art, or 3D models to license to anymore so they no skin in the real game. The only reason HG would want to include them is over the FASA v HG case and the settlement that Weisman signed. But, the catch there is he doesn't actually have anything to do with licensing the art to anyone nor has he created any new art derived or not. To that end HG had better tip toe around HBS or they could end up getting a countersuit. Considering the others.. It isn't completely unreasonable, but the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, and Locust?? Even if the latter two were identical knock-offs to another animes artwork HG has no basis for a copyright claim and only CGL has a claim (or the artworks author) on the Atlas. It would be a twist of irony if CGL countersued HG over making false claims on THEIR copyrighted work.
Aaaaaand I went off on a rant and lost my train of thought... #P
you know while I am not especially happy about the MWO atlas if the lawyers properly cite the old atlas as a clearly FASA artwork, and then show the various concept art stages where all they really did was move the head down that really IMO kills the argument HG had that its a ripoff of the armored veritech and that they are VINDICTIVELY harassing anyone and anything having to do with battletech to "defend" an IP that my understanding of the japan courts rulings means they don't actually have. and if there IS any justice in the world they won't just loose the case, they will LOOSE AND have to pay all the defense legal costs because they are a copyright troll.
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Well, adding HBS and Jordan Weisman to the suit is a double edged sword for HG as it can be seen as harassment for one as well as the possibility of a countersuit of them making claims on the Atlas which they do not own. If anything PGI would have licensed the likeness, or at the very least created a derivative of it with permission (or blessing if it can be copyrighted by PGI) from CGL. Trying to claim someone else copyright as your own... not smart. Depending on the relationship or ownership of the PGI Atlas HG is playing with fire. HBS, PGI, and CGL might not have a ton of money like Hasbro or HG but HG seems to have gone a bit overboard trying to drag Weisman into this.
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One thing to remind folks of, it's likely intended to be something handled in negotiation - so HG makes solid claims, then makes much more spurious ones, with the tradeoff of 'we'll back off these and acknowledge they're not ours, if you admit that those few are." Granted, PGI decided to go all the way with it, which probably wasn't in HG's intent - but such is the law.
Let's keep cool heads.
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Well, now the fight is on anyway. No use at the moment to let anything go. If HG wins the unseen will be pretty much gone as you want it, but as how the indictment (hope that is the right term) has been phrased mechs in general are a thing of the past because nothing that looks like a robot will be okay in the mindset of HG´s lawyers. And I don´t think that any judge will let this happen. But in the end we live in crazy times.
I don't want any of this. These lawsuits are a waste that could have been avoided by just not poking HG and embracing PP instead. HG ignored the Phoenixes, as far as i know, so the matter could have ended there.
This argument is backwards.
FASA created the Warhammer BattleMech, its name, backstory, configuration and game rules. The only thing not FASA for the Warhammer is its visual representation. Over two decades of "unseen" have proven that BattleTech is its own artistic entity, and that it doesn't hinge on the imagery in question. (Using the Warhammer here as a stand-in for all Unseen.)
What FASA, later FanPro and then IMR/CGL did was to try and fill the hole in BattleTech that Harmony Gold punched. They backfilled the hole with designs that, in my uninformed layman opinion, share no copyrightable similarities with the original IP.
...
Does anyone else here remember the days when FASA was slammed as FA$A among roleplayers for their perceived crackdown on third parties who made (too) free use of FASA's BattleTech, Shadowrun and other IPs?
If Harmony Gold is in the right, then by all means, they are. My gut feeling says they aren't. But again, that's for the court to decide. Torches, pitchforks, tar & feathers have no place here.
I'm not lumping anything, i'm talking about the unseen art! The name, stats and story have never been challenged, only the art (which is of mechs, so i'm calling them mechs).
Project phoenix showed that HG didn't care about the names or stats. If the mechs truly had been distinct from the art, PP would have been the end of it. Instead both piranha and cgl deliberately tried to edge back in closer to the original unseen.
Is HG right , are they wrong, i don't know. But i fear a judge or jury will give them the benefit of the doubt because what it looks like is battletech encroaching on designs it signed away in 1996. That's not even subtle. The intent was clearly to get as close to the unseen art as they could, which means no matter what else hg does with its time, they are not the aggressors here, they are defending their ip against a repeat offender (or so their lawyers will be able to claim with some justification). Where is the line between ok and infringement? I don't know, but everyone should have expected that to be a question settled in court, and cgl doesn't have the time or money for that.
I think the new classics looks sweet, but they i don't think they are/were a risk worth taking given the legal situation. New designs utterly dissimilar by these artists could have been just as sweet for less risk.
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I don't want any of this. These lawsuits are a waste that could have been avoided by just not poking HG and embracing PP instead. HG ignored the Phoenixes, as far as i know, so the matter could have ended there.
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/babylon5/images/3/3d/Koshlight.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061003194213)
The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.
Would it have been better to resolve this back when it began? Probably. Would it have been better to have original art to begin with? Maybe. Art's expensive, maybe too expensive back when the game began.
Does it matter? Nope. What's done is done and here we are.
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When a bully demands your toys, you sock him in the nose.
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Well we all know Wasps sting and Stingers are kinda painful. :P
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One thing to remind folks of, it's likely intended to be something handled in negotiation - so HG makes solid claims, then makes much more spurious ones, with the tradeoff of 'we'll back off these and acknowledge they're not ours, if you admit that those few are." Granted, PGI decided to go all the way with it, which probably wasn't in HG's intent - but such is the law.
Let's keep cool heads.
We don't know that PGI has decided to go all the way to trial yet. We're reaching the stage when the lawyers for both sides meet and try to negotiate a settlement.
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Okay i got a dumb question that requires a personal anecdote. When my wife and i were negotiating a Prenuptuial agreement, my attourney revealed to me that at least in family court, sometimes a contract or agreement can be thrown out because a judge either finds it spurious, or unfair etc. or can even be thrown out because a long enough time has passed. Now this was family court not civil litigation, but I am wondering in light of the summary of Weissmans settlement from way back when, if a similar thing can happen.
Specifically I am looking at the portion that says he is obligated to try and prevent future IP developers he is not directly involved with from trying tonuse, obtain or if i read it right, redesign these images. With project phoenix being released in 2003 and no public attempt made to prevent it despite it loosely violating the letter of that settlement, could that whole settlement be thrown out as either un enforcable or a lack of previous enforcement.
Granted I am not a lawyer, so the hypothesis could be easily tosed out, hut it is worth a thought.
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Seriously unlikely.
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(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/babylon5/images/3/3d/Koshlight.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061003194213)
The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.
Would it have been better to resolve this back when it began? Probably. Would it have been better to have original art to begin with? Maybe. Art's expensive, maybe too expensive back when the game began.
Does it matter? Nope. What's done is done and here we are.
And how is the Project Phoenix art different from the Classic art in being derived from the original Unseen artwork?
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Seriously unlikely.
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I did not think so, but thought it was worth bringing up
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Specifically I am looking at the portion that says he is obligated to try and prevent future IP developers he is not directly involved with from trying tonuse, obtain or if i read it right, redesign these images. With project phoenix being released in 2003 and no public attempt made to prevent it despite it loosely violating the letter of that settlement, could that whole settlement be thrown out as either un enforcable or a lack of previous enforcement.
Granted I am not a lawyer, so the hypothesis could be easily tosed out, hut it is worth a thought.
how involved was Weisman in PP though? it was done by Fanpro, which IIRC he was not involved with.
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And how is the Project Phoenix art different from the Classic art in being derived from the original Unseen artwork?
I am unclear why you are asking me.
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HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.
They do no such thing.
- Shane
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The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.
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The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.
Ah. I found them while looking through HBS's stuff on their site, it must have linked me over. I thought I was still at HBS's website discussing their kickstarter and extra merchandise.
We don't know that PGI has decided to go all the way to trial yet. We're reaching the stage when the lawyers for both sides meet and try to negotiate a settlement.
True - though I thought I'd seen a request for jury trial in the paperwork; that's probably JUST the request but seems to show a willingness to go to the wall for PGI. And may well be pro forma for legal proceedings anyway.
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The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.
Which brings up the question of "is Kickstarter money revenue or investment"?
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Which brings up the question of "is Kickstarter money revenue or investment"?
No, it doesn't. No one is disputing that these images are being used for commercial profit.
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I am unclear why you are asking me.
Could have done better on the quoting there, my question should be seen as a follow-on to your post.
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Please don't start a rehash of that argument in this thread.
Except it isn't really an argument.
It is fact that there was an agreement that made it legally impossible for the Macross art to represent the mechs it used to.
TPTB have stated that even if the art were legally usable that it would not be.
Could the second fact I stated there change? Technically yes but the chain of events and circumstances surrounding the Macross art that would have to change/happen is so unlikely to do so that it is extremely unlikely. Heck I probably have better odds of winning the lotto than the Macross art work becoming legally usable and being used once again in Battletech.
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And how is the Project Phoenix art different from the Classic art in being derived from the original Unseen artwork?
It looks a whole lot less than the unseen than the new classics, enough so that HG didn't bat an eye at TRO: Phoenix.
When a bully demands your toys, you sock him in the nose.
But who is the bully? That's for a judge to decide, because both parties can, with some justification, say it's the other side. And a nose socking match helps neither company.
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But who is the bully? That's for a judge to decide, because both parties can, with some justification, say it's the other side. And a nose socking match helps neither company.
We should note that this isn't hte kind of case where our side is likely to get any money. Harmony Gold is, even if we think it's stupid and wrongheaded, asserting a legitimate claim.
Which means, at best? The Judge says (or Jury), yeah, you can use these designs. There won't be any money in it, and in fact, you'll lose money by having to defend against the action. So a very big question is: Does the benefit of being able to use these particular designs, in cold hard, cash terms, equal the damage we'll take by having to spend money and time defending them.
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I think in this case yes IMR/CGL has to defend their art. Not doing so would lose a huge chunk of investment and there would likely have to be damages paid due to past revenue.
PGI and HBS? I'm inclined to say yes they have to fight too. While I think they'd be more likely to survive and push forward by not fighting I think they too still stand to lose more in damages than what it would cost them to fight.
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What people seem to be missing here is that CGL has made new art - original art. HG is claiming that art as theirs. It isn't.
As for the reasons? Maybe the new Robotech movie. Maybe HG knows it can't withstand Sony without some previous cases against smaller companies who it can bully. So HG hits IMR, PGI, and HBS and then uses those cases to bolster itself against Sony.
Except that it looks like the small fry are fighting it, as they should. It's original art and needs to be protected, or would you want to lose the Atlas?
- Shane
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What people seem to be missing here is that CGL has made new art - original art. HG is claiming that art as theirs. It isn't.
- Shane
HG's claim is that the art represents their 'Mechs. It's like if I drew a Macross Valkyrie and then put it on a t-shirt and tried to sell it; it'd be my own artwork in my own stylistic changes, but the subject of the artwork is very clearly their IP even though they didn't draw it themselves.
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HG's claim is that the art represents their 'Mechs. It's like if I drew a Macross Valkyrie and then put it on a t-shirt and tried to sell it; it'd be my own artwork in my own stylistic changes, but the subject of the artwork is very clearly their IP even though they didn't draw it themselves.
He's referring to the Atlas. I do hope you're not arguing the Atlas is 'putting a T-shirt on a Veritech'.
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He's referring to the Atlas. I do hope you're not arguing the Atlas is 'putting a T-shirt on a Veritech'.
Any BT fan knows that the atlas is and always has been original IP. He was only comparing putting a T-shirt on a Valkyrie and passing it off as our own.
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Any BT fan knows that the atlas is and always has been original IP. He was only comparing putting a T-shirt on a Valkyrie and passing it off as our own.
You sure that's what he meant?
I read it as "putting the Valkyrie (even if you drew it yourself) on a T-shirt and selling the T-shirts"
I'm not a native speaker, so maybe I misunderstood.
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Any BT fan knows that the atlas is and always has been original IP. He was only comparing putting a T-shirt on a Valkyrie and passing it off as our own.
vi
I may have gotten the posts confused. But I believe the documents HG filed said the Atlas was derivtiive of the armoured Valk from Macros. As mentioned in Shane's post.
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The Atlas is a minor matter. The major points of contention are against the PGI/HBS Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix Hawk and the IMR/CGL Warhammer, Marauder, and Archer. Those are the important designs in this action, and we should keep that in mind instead of focusing on the obviously non-derivative examples.
Understand that the judge or jury can decide that some exhibits infringe while others do not.
HG's claim is that the art represents their 'Mechs. It's like if I drew a Macross Valkyrie and then put it on a t-shirt and tried to sell it; it'd be my own artwork in my own stylistic changes, but the subject of the artwork is very clearly their IP even though they didn't draw it themselves.
That's not a good analogy here. That would cover the old FASA suit. HG's claim here will be that PGI/CGL took the Macross Valkyrie and traced a slightly-different design over it, a drawing that is so similar to the original that consumers will confuse the two.
But who is the bully? That's for a judge to decide, because both parties can, with some justification, say it's the other side. And a nose socking match helps neither company.
How is Harmony Gold's action justified? These designs in question are not the images from Macross. You are fully allowed to create new works inspired by older ones. Disney may own Mickey Mouse, but they can't claim every cartoon rodent, even those which look kind of like Mickey.
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vi
I may have gotten the posts confused. But I believe the documents HG filed said the Atlas was derivtiive of the armoured Valk from Macros. As mentioned in Shane's post.
that's what HG was claiming that the "new" atlas, is a derivative work from the armored veritech (which in battletech was the original crusader art) which reinforces my argument that they are copyright trolls. if the heavy e frame from exosquad is not "close enough" to a madcat/timberwolf to be a copyright infringement then harmony gold should be told to go pound sand on their claimed infringements.
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that's what HG was claiming that the "new" atlas, is a derivative work from the armored veritech (which in battletech was the original crusader art) which reinforces my argument that they are copyright trolls. if the heavy e frame from exosquad is not "close enough" to a madcat/timberwolf to be a copyright infringement then harmony gold should be told to go pound sand on their claimed infringements.
Copyright and trademark trolls, to be exact. They're not just screwing us over, they're also screwing anime fans who would like to see non-garbage imports of the various Macross series.
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How is Harmony Gold's action justified? These designs in question are not the images from Macross. You are fully allowed to create new works inspired by older ones. Disney may own Mickey Mouse, but they can't claim every cartoon rodent, even those which look kind of like Mickey.
Much Like Disney has Chip and Dale, two Chipmunks, and at the same time Warner Brothers had the Goofy Gophers, 2 extremely polite, British Speaking gophers.
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Copyright and trademark trolls, to be exact. They're not just screwing us over, they're also screwing anime fans who would like to see non-garbage imports of the various Macross series.
So that would mean no Macross 7 Trash then?
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Oooooo_kay...
SO having read through all of that, here are my thoughts.
Since, it is the subject of the Thread:
TRO: SW
1. Why did they redo the art for the flea? I've long-since head-cannoned that different art is just how a different manufacturer makes the mech, but stilll; the original was fine, this just looks like what it is; updated art to bring it into line with the Micheal Bay Aesthetic of MWO. Personally; I hate it; the box on legs looked like an early simple mech, which is what it was. Why mess with perfection?
2. Ostscout looks great. Not anything like an Ostscout mind you, but better than anything from PP.
3. NICE Banshee art. Art there any major variants without official art now? This though, was a very fine addition.
4. I was missing the...missing...and then my FB feed lit up with...this...Well crap.
This stupid mess
1. HG is awful, just awful.
2. Robotech movie? I rate that about as likely as the Reboot and Gargoyles movies I've been promised for years. So; while the IP might get mangled into a new kids show that rapes my childhood, I doubt it will ever happen as promised.
3. Which is just as well, as I doubt Sony could keep from ruining the original designs. A lot of people hate on the Vertitechs and Destroids, et al, as "Dated". I disagree; every one of them was right on the money for what they should have been. The Vertitechs LOOKED like a fighter plane got up and started dancing around shooting people; the Detroids LOOKED very much like literal walking tanks. And the various Glaug walkers looked as alien as possible, while still appearing workable.
5. There were minor, if any differences to be found in the original lawsuit. Here...I think there is a chance and a good one.
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TRO: SW
1. Why did they redo the art for the flea? I've long-since head-cannoned that different art is just how a different manufacturer makes the mech, but stilll; the original was fine, this just looks like what it is; updated art to bring it into line with the Micheal Bay Aesthetic of MWO. Personally; I hate it; the box on legs looked like an early simple mech, which is what it was. Why mess with perfection?
The Flea art isn't replaced, this is just a different variant of the Flea. The box on legs still exists, and actually represents the majority of variants.
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The Flea art isn't replaced, this is just a different variant of the Flea. The box on legs still exists, and actually represents the majority of variants.
Old Flea art -> Quickcell
New Flea art -> StarCorp
;)
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So this new art is for the original and not the Quickcell rip off?
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It's the FLE-16. New introtech for everyone!
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So this new art is for the original and not the Quickcell rip off?
I was just joking on how crude the old art looked.
My headcanon has the old art as being a repair job by barely trained SW era technicians.
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That's not a good analogy here. That would cover the old FASA suit. HG's claim here will be that PGI/CGL took the Macross Valkyrie and traced a slightly-different design over it, a drawing that is so similar to the original that consumers will confuse the two.
How is Harmony Gold's action justified? These designs in question are not the images from Macross. You are fully allowed to create new works inspired by older ones. Disney may own Mickey Mouse, but they can't claim every cartoon rodent, even those which look kind of like Mickey.
You've answered your own question. Companies are explicitly allowed to defend against perceived copyright infringement that can confuse consumers. The line between infringement and inspiration is not for CGL/Piranha to decide, nor for HG, but a judge or jury. Even if the court rules against HG, they were still in their rights to sue, given the history between the companies/franchises.
Let's not forget that Battletech has tried to claim those images in the past, then signed an agreement not to use those images anymore. Now we have designs that are clearly and deliberately attempting to evoke those old images as much as possible while carrying the same names inside the BT universe.
That can legitimately be seen as a challenge by HG, and thus they are in their rights to sue for infringement.
Inspirations are required to be unique works in their own right, and have traits that the original did not. These new designs are quite clearly the unseen updated to the new art styles. They are designed to not just look like, but be the new unseen. That may well not be enough to justify the 'inspired work' claim. Or it may.
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I don't think FASA tried to claim the images, as I understand it FASA thought they got the license. But it turned out the people FASA got it from did not have the rights to sell it.
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I don't think FASA tried to claim the images, as I understand it FASA thought they got the license. But it turned out the people FASA got it from did not have the rights to sell it.
And funnily enough that seems to be the exact same situation HG is in...
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Let's not forget that Battletech has tried to claim those images in the past, then signed an agreement not to use those images anymore. Now we have designs that are clearly and deliberately attempting to evoke those old images as much as possible while carrying the same names inside the BT universe.
That can legitimately be seen as a challenge by HG, and thus they are in their rights to sue for infringement.
Inspirations are required to be unique works in their own right, and have traits that the original did not. These new designs are quite clearly the unseen updated to the new art styles. They are designed to not just look like, but be the new unseen. That may well not be enough to justify the 'inspired work' claim. Or it may.
These are unique works. They are inspired by the originals, but are new art. You are allowed to be inspired by other art - almost everything is.
And of course they are designed to be the new unseen - the original artwork can't be used. That does not make them unoriginal. These are designed quite clearly to not be the unseen while capturing the spirit of them - and HG has no copyright on spirit.
If you want to go by their tack - how about the Bushwacker? The Hector? Any of the primitives? The Bombadier, the Hammerhands? The MadCat?
If HG has their way, it's anything defined as "Giant Robot Warrior" that they own if it has any elements of the Macross in it. They need to be shut down on this matter.
- Shane
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That's not a good analogy here. That would cover the old FASA suit. HG's claim here will be that PGI/CGL took the Macross Valkyrie and traced a slightly-different design over it, a drawing that is so similar to the original that consumers will confuse the two.
That's what I was trying to say, just badly written earlier. I was referring to things like the 'Classic' Warhammer or the PGI art. I misunderstood what Acolyte meant by "CGL has made new art" - I thought he meant the redesigned Macross machines. The idea that the Atlas is derivative of the Armored Valkyrie's downright laughable, no less so that Ford trying to claim that GM is copying their car because it has four wheels, some doors, and an engine in roughly similar shape. (Which brings us back to scenes a faire)
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HG's claim is that the art represents their 'Mechs. It's like if I drew a Macross Valkyrie and then put it on a t-shirt and tried to sell it; it'd be my own artwork in my own stylistic changes, but the subject of the artwork is very clearly their IP even though they didn't draw it themselves.
If you were to draw an original BattleMech on that shirt - even one inspired by the Valkyrie - you'd be fine. If you were to put an exactly copy you wouldn't.
That's what I was trying to say, just badly written earlier. I was referring to things like the 'Classic' Warhammer or the PGI art. I misunderstood what Acolyte meant by "CGL has made new art" - I thought he meant the redesigned Macross machines. The idea that the Atlas is derivative of the Armored Valkyrie's downright laughable, no less so that Ford trying to claim that GM is copying their car because it has four wheels, some doors, and an engine in roughly similar shape. (Which brings us back to scenes a faire)
I do mean the Classics as new art - they are. They are inspired by the old but are not them. They are new. If you were to have a 3D printed copy of each in your hands of the same size you would clearly see the differences. There is no mistaking one for the other.
- Shane
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The Flea art isn't replaced, this is just a different variant of the Flea. The box on legs still exists, and actually represents the majority of variants.
Maybe they just wanted to really, really sure that no one might accidentally mistake it for an AT-ST >:D
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These are unique works. They are inspired by the originals, but are new art. You are allowed to be inspired by other art - almost everything is.
And of course they are designed to be the new unseen - the original artwork can't be used. That does not make them unoriginal. These are designed quite clearly to not be the unseen while capturing the spirit of them - and HG has no copyright on spirit.
If you want to go by their tack - how about the Bushwacker? The Hector? Any of the primitives? The Bombadier, the Hammerhands? The MadCat?
If HG has their way, it's anything defined as "Giant Robot Warrior" that they own if it has any elements of the Macross in it. They need to be shut down on this matter.
- Shane
IMR/CGL are not being sued for the Bushwacker, Hector, or Hammerhands.
While it is easy for us to perceive Harmony Gold as a despicable villains I find myself actually somewhat agreeing with JenniferinaMAD.
There have been many years where we had the Project Phoenix Art and from what I can see none of that is being contested by Harmony Gold.
So end of the day while we may not like Harmony Gold and there seem to be many ready and willing to sensationalize them into villains, it doesn't mean that they are in the wrong to bring this case or that there is not some merit to the idea that maybe IMR/CGL did poke the bear with the new Classics art.
Which is what Harmony Gold is contesting. That the new Classic art is too close to the old Macross art.
If I am objective about it I can see IMR/CGL does have some cause for concern because while I can see sufficient differences doesn't mean a judge and jury won't.
So don't get me wrong. I hope Harmony Gold loses and loses hard. It is just that the available evidence does suggest this whole mess could have been avoided in the first place if people could have let go of the old Macross art for Battletech and accepted something completely different. Which is a possible outcome of this situation(that we have to accept new art that is clearly different).
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IMR/CGL are not being sued for the Bushwacker, Hector, or Hammerhands.
While it is easy for us to perceive Harmony Gold as a despicable villains I find myself actually somewhat agreeing with JenniferinaMAD.
There have been many years where we had the Project Phoenix Art and from what I can see none of that is being contested by Harmony Gold.
So end of the day while we may not like Harmony Gold and there seem to be many ready and willing to sensationalize them into villains, it doesn't mean that they are in the wrong to bring this case or that there is not some merit to the idea that maybe IMR/CGL did poke the bear with the new Classics art.
Which is what Harmony Gold is contesting. That the new Classic art is too close to the old Macross art.
If I am objective about it I can see IMR/CGL does have some cause for concern because while I can see sufficient differences doesn't mean a judge and jury won't.
So don't get me wrong. I hope Harmony Gold loses and loses hard. It is just that the available evidence does suggest this whole mess could have been avoided in the first place if people could have let go of the old Macross art for Battletech and accepted something completely different. Which is a possible outcome of this situation(that we have to accept new art that is clearly different).
This is fair. Both sides think that this artwork is theirs. That's something to consider, although I don't think that anyone "Poked the Bear" in this case. I think it was a sincere attempt to finally, finally get the "Unseen" issue behind us. Give acceptable new art and let the old go.
I also think the new Sony Movie being discussed has more to do with this happening now than people want to admit.
As to the art, I think it's new and I hope the Jury agrees.
- Shane
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*nod*
I still suspect it is another vaporware movie just to keep the IP rights active but the timing does suggest that it is a likely motivator for this current issue.
Though seeing how as this process began before March of this year also indicates that indeed the Classics art could be a motivator as well as it takes time to even get to the publicly verifiable March milestone.
Either way it is a matter of some concern and we need to be mindful of our passions, especially on the official forums.
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*nod*
I still suspect it is another vaporware movie just to keep the IP rights active but the timing does suggest that it is a likely motivator for this current issue.
Though seeing how as this process began before March of this year also indicates that indeed the Classics art could be a motivator as well as it takes time to even get to the publicly verifiable March milestone.
Either way it is a matter of some concern and we need to be mindful of our passions, especially on the official forums.
Maybe, but they lawsuit added the Combat Manuals in last. They started with PGI/HBS and that leads me to believe that the Classics were not the motivating factor. Then considering how long PGI has had those models and no lawsuit makes me very suspicious of the timing.
- Shane
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*nod*
It is likely that with Hollywood running out of things from the 80's to reboot/bring back it is actually not out of the question that a Robotech movie could actually finally happen and thus indeed be the primary motivator. Even if it is another vaporware production just to keep the rights active it is likely the primary motivator.
At least for going after PGI and HBS.
That IMR/CGL were roped in at all though is where we have the only real question mark as I cannot find anything publicly available that Harmony Gold are challenging the Project Phoenix artwork, just the Classic artwork.
I'll have to re-check the filings though to be sure, especially for who the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk claims are actually aimed at.
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Maybe, but they lawsuit added the Combat Manuals in last. They started with PGI/HBS and that leads me to believe that the Classics were not the motivating factor. Then considering how long PGI has had those models and no lawsuit makes me very suspicious of the timing.
- Shane
The initial in-game release of PGI's Marauder was in Dec. 2015. Their latest "Unseen", the Marauder IIC released Dec. 2016. HG filed March 2017. In any case, it's my understanding that this post: http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/tagged/Warhammer (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/tagged/Warhammer), dated Nov. 2015, was what alerted HG to the existence of the new art although they claimed not to have seen this post until July 2016. HG initially contacted PGI in July and sent letters to both PGI and HBS in Oct. 2016.
Sony picked up the rights to Robotech in 2015. After going through a series of directors, the latest man in this game of musical chairs is Andy Muschietti circa July 2017. To date, however, I don't believe a single word of the script has been written.
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I will be very surprised if a robotech movie is ever made. 1. Because of the whole rights mess--there are plenty of other properties out there where you don't have to ask: Why can't we use stuff from teh first 1/3rd of the source material and 2. Robotech is honestly not that big. 3. There's enough illwill about HG that it could materially impact the film's success. 4. the failure of the kickstarter. EXALTED got more money than the robotech academy kickstarter got, and that's terrible for what is supposedly a happening property, especialy since HG didn't want to fund it themselves.
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The general public isn't aware of on the large what wrong with Robotech or it's owners problems.
If a news report comes out, it will depends on how they view HG and rest the companies as well.
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The general public isn't aware of on the large what wrong with Robotech or it's owners problems.
If a news report comes out, it will depends on how they view HG and rest the companies as well.
This is a good point. Even Sony might not be aware of all the issues behind Robotech. While I still believe that any talk of a new movie is mere IP squatting, it does lead to an interesting possible reason behind the latest lawsuit. Sony would have to update the aesthetics of the Veritechs and Destroids to fit modern sensibilities, live-action realism, and avoid IP infringement outside the US. By preemptively suing PGI/HBS/IMR, Harmony Gold could be trying to avoid the defendants later suing over how close Sony's redesigns are to the "classics!" If so, then it would absolutely shift the tone of the lawsuit to "bad faith."
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This is a good point. Even Sony might not be aware of all the issues behind Robotech. While I still believe that any talk of a new movie is mere IP squatting, it does lead to an interesting possible reason behind the latest lawsuit. Sony would have to update the aesthetics of the Veritechs and Destroids to fit modern sensibilities, live-action realism, and avoid IP infringement outside the US. By preemptively suing PGI/HBS/IMR, Harmony Gold could be trying to avoid the defendants later suing over how close Sony's redesigns are to the "classics!" If so, then it would absolutely shift the tone of the lawsuit to "bad faith."
That would make a possible Robotech Movie likely the FIRST major/modern motion picture to NOT have an asian release, due to the IP being owned by someone else overseas.
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That is an interesting point. What a tricky web we weave.
It might behoove CGL to get its work done on the rest of the Classics to show the differences. Not that they have to show them to us, but between the Archer, Stinger, and Longbow (any others I'm missing?), it would help the case to show the derivations and thus presumed legality of them. We only have one view of the new Archer, which doesn't particularly help.
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That is an interesting point. What a tricky web we weave.
It might behoove CGL to get its work done on the rest of the Classics to show the differences. Not that they have to show them to us, but between the Archer, Stinger, and Longbow (any others I'm missing?), it would help the case to show the derivations and thus presumed legality of them. We only have one view of the new Archer, which doesn't particularly help.
Makes me think the primitives maybe as close you will get to the having redesigns in some fashion at rate were going.
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That would make a possible Robotech Movie likely the FIRST major/modern motion picture to NOT have an asian release, due to the IP being owned by someone else overseas.
That's precisely why they'd have to overhaul all the designs. The other aspects are probably safe, as nobody is disputing HG's rights to the actual unique elements of Robotech.
Makes me think the primitives maybe as close you will get to the having redesigns in some fashion at rate were going.
Just as I've said we should avoid undue optimism, we should also try not to be too pessimistic. There are still strong possibilities for the BattleTech side of things to win decisively. The judge could dismiss the case with prejudice, ruling that the claims of infringement are not compelling enough to warrant further action. In the negotiation meetings, the two sides could hammer out some tweaks that would make the new art non-infringing in HG's eyes, or HG could back down if PGI's lawyers continue to play hardball.
These are things that could happen pretty quickly. It's far too early to say how things will go.
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*nod*
And let us not forget that even the best possible outcome of this case as far as HBS, PGI, and IMR/CGL are concerned based on the arguments being made by HBS and PGI's lawyers will likely create such a legal quagmire that we'll probably not see any more Macross/Robotech.
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Coleco just announced a toy partnership with hg. The plot thickens.
https://coleco.com/tomorrow/
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Coleco is still around? Interesting.
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... not The Onion?
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Coleco and Harmony Goa'uld together? It's like the black hole of irrelevant '80s companies.
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More interesting timing: https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808 (https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808)
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More interesting timing: https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808 (https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808)
So Harmony Gold literally went "Guys, we're totally not just sitting on the IP, not doing anything with it! LOOK!"
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:::groan:::
:::Headdesk:::
sheesh...
I'm not sure what's worse: Another Macross-set Robotech Comic, The crappy-looking Cyclone toy, The fact that Coleco is still around, or That a Coleco-vision console revisit is being developed.
There's so much wrong in @Luciora & @Fat Guy's posts. You would of thought HG would of gotten the message after the Robotech Academy debacle.
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That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image
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That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image
I love how that pilot is going to shoot himself in his shoulder or chest with that EP-40 in the fourth picture of that Cyclone toy... ;D
And yeah, it does look a lot like the one a friend of mine got a convention one time...only A LOT more primitive...
Ruger
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i'm guessing placeholder image.
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I remember seeing those bootlegs in San Francisco chinatown.
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Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.
But it's being written by a critically acclaimed comic scribe who has a number of high-profile projects in his past including a good amount of well-regarded, independent, creator-owned works. So what the hell he's doing on this book is beyond me.
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Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.
So, overwriting the old 'Return to Macross' comics? Typcial. Robotech continuity is such a mess. Makes me appreciate Battletech's comprehensive timeline all the more.
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Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.
But it's being written by a critically acclaimed comic scribe who has a number of high-profile projects in his past including a good amount of well-regarded, independent, creator-owned works. So what the hell he's doing on this book is beyond me.
As has been said, not everyone knows just how ugly Harmony Gold is. And yeah, the more I see of HG's new projects, the more disgusting this lawsuit looks.
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That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image
It's not the same as the 80s Mospeada toy, after doing a little digging. Pretty similar, but there's too many proportion and construction differences. Looking at the joints of the new toy it makes me think of something in a GI Joe-scaled 3 3/4" (or whatever it is) figure.
Not so great, but there's always the option of ordering from overseas at places like Hobbylink Japan or 1999 Co. As far as the Macross side of things goes, the merchandising is going gangbusters with some fantastic quality toys for all the parts of the franchise.
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U know. I think that HG waits few years every so often and use these lawsuits to promote themselves "defend" their intellectual property. What a scam if that true.
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U know. I think that HG waits few years every so often and use these lawsuits to promote themselves "defend" their intellectual property. What a scam if that true.
Well, if they don't sue they lose the IP rights. That's arguably corporate mismanagement, by not trying to protect its assets, and costing its investors money. So it's not a scam, it's just business.
As for Sony's take on this, watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I3y3_QmBsQ) on the gigantic pile of mess that makes up Star Trek's IP and what was going on behind the scenes with the various rights ownerships is highly informative. It shows the kind of market that, at the moment, exists in a Robotech franchise - and the danger involved. The apparent real story behind Abrams' departure from the Trek franchise and move to Star Wars certainly makes a lot of sense...
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So, overwriting the old 'Return to Macross' comics? Typcial. Robotech continuity is such a mess. Makes me appreciate Battletech's comprehensive timeline all the more.
Not even that.
Robotech's "Expanded universe" basically is rebooted everytime the licence for secondary media changes hands.
The Eternity/Academy Return to Macross was over-written by Antarctic Press' god-awful Robotech comics from the late 90s. Those were, in turn, over-written by Wildstorm's Robotech comics of the early 2000s. And those will now be over-written by the new comic. For me, "Roy Fokker on Macross Island" has become something of an angry running gag, given that it's the first thing that the newest comic licensor does.
As an interesting side-note, Return to Macross predates Macross Zero by a number of years
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Well, if they don't sue they lose the IP rights.
Isn't that trademarks rights, rather than IP copyrights?
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Well in reference to HG all I can say is that I hope the Btech lawyers quote to Ur'Quan-Kor'ah and
KILL THE INTERLOPER! RIP OUT ITS LIFE!!
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That's precisely why they'd have to overhaul all the designs. The other aspects are probably safe, as nobody is disputing HG's rights to the actual unique elements of Robotech.
Just as I've said we should avoid undue optimism, we should also try not to be too pessimistic. There are still strong possibilities for the BattleTech side of things to win decisively. The judge could dismiss the case with prejudice, ruling that the claims of infringement are not compelling enough to warrant further action. In the negotiation meetings, the two sides could hammer out some tweaks that would make the new art non-infringing in HG's eyes, or HG could back down if PGI's lawyers continue to play hardball.
These are things that could happen pretty quickly. It's far too early to say how things will go.
To be honest, I'm not particularly worked up over the merits of the case, specifically because I am totally unqualified to judge them.
I am mostly concerned over the moneyfight aspect of the lawsuit, wherein the party with deeper pockets may intimidate another party into rolling over with the threat of extremely expensive, and protracted, litigation. PGI seems to be taking this seriously, and fighting it up to this point, but we haven't gotten very far in the process yet. Everything published so far is just positioning for the real battle to come.
CGL's lack of publicly filed response is especially troubling to me, in this respect :-\
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It's possible CGL just doesn't have the money to fight this, given their small size.
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It's possible CGL just doesn't have the money to fight this, given their small size.
Maybe they haven't responded yet because they are trying to get Topps' lawyers involved?
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Don't worry about the CGL lawyer situation, it is being addressed.
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Hope we can see some public filings soon then so we can relax a bit then because as expensive as a lawyer might be I'm reasonably certain it would be cheaper than having to re-draw a bunch of designs yet again and pay damages.
Though in re-looking over the publicly available paper work I am starting to think IMR/CGL only got roped into this because of Rus' post about working with PGI and posting a picture of their Warhammer which Harmony Gold sees as essentially a breach of contract as I don't see anything from Harmony Gold contesting IMR/CGL's Classics artwork or their versions of the Atlas, Locust, or Shadow Hawk. All the artwork claims seems to be leveled at specifically PGI and HBS.
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Though in re-looking over the publicly available paper work I am starting to think IMR/CGL only got roped into this because of Rus' post about working with PGI and posting a picture of their Warhammer which Harmony Gold sees as essentially a breach of contract as I don't see anything from Harmony Gold contesting IMR/CGL's Classics artwork or their versions of the Atlas, Locust, or Shadow Hawk. All the artwork claims seems to be leveled at specifically PGI and HBS.
They could be testing the legal "Waters" see if they can go for more after the first case.
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Don't worry about the CGL lawyer situation, it is being addressed.
I have no doubt about that. I'm just looking forward to reading the response! I'm curious how many responses are going to be universal to all three companies, and which are going to be unique. I think the BattleTech side of the fence has some strong arguments this time. It's probably odd, but I'm actually a little excited to see this play out.
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They could be testing the legal "Waters" see if they can go for more after the first case.
That is a possibility and why a large part of my hope is that PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL can actually hang in there and win this. It would pretty much put the final nail in the coffin.
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That is a possibility and why a large part of my hope is that PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL can actually hang in there and win this. It would pretty much put the final nail in the coffin.
I hope your right. I think it will take HG going out business and their "rights" taken away. Pray inMedia is the one to get them.
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I hope your right. I think it will take HG going out business and their "rights" taken away. Pray inMedia is the one to get them.
Losing the design rights (which they never had) will not put them out of business. That would require them being sued (for damages) by all the companies that they have sued before. HG has caused quite a lot of economic damage over the years, (I am not a lawyer, but I think) a case can be made that they need to pay for those damages.
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I hope your right. I think it will take HG going out business and their "rights" taken away. Pray inMedia is the one to get them.
Not sure they need to go out of business complete -- I don't think any of us have a beef with the real estate side of their business. Now if they went out of the television business, or even more specifically the anime licensing and import for television business, that'd be sufficient. But yeah, I don't see that happening without Tatsunoko pulling the plug on Macross (and then there's any other rightsholders stupid enough to sell Cacophony Pyrite a license for their shows...)
BTW, I saw that cover for their new #1 (they now officially have more #1 issues than Groo! And they're just as slow of mind...) and wow, that art is fugly! "Rick" looks like Disney's Aladdin, Roy's about the same height as "Rick" and has a much more serious demeanor than he did in the show, Claudia looks to have put on about 25 pounds, "Minmei" looks like a demure schoolmarm, and they must have taken the Star Pro episodes as a reference for the take on "Lisa". (For those who don't know, "Star Pro" was one of the bottom-of-the-barrel feeder studios enlisted to scramble to get episodes ready in time, and their "just-didn't-care-itude" is evident in the hideously off-model and laughable animation. They're the ones who animated the episode where Max and Milia got married, including the ridiculous knife fight.)
Some of the other preview covers I've dug up are even worse. For one thing, the artists in these ones are trying TOO hard to make the characters "look Asian" and so all the Japanese characters have exaggerated epicanthic folds, as if he's deliberately overcorrecting Haruhiko Mikimimoto's work.
https://borg.com/tag/marco-turini/ -- you can see it in the top two, the bottom two are slavish copies of Mikimoto's style.
http://www.comicsforsinners.com/titan-comics-diamond-previews-july-2017-solicitations-robotech-is-here/
https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2017/05/titan-unveils-karl-kerschl-variant-covers-for-robotech/ -- BTW, if "Rick" and "Lisa" were given a "race lift" for the purposes of Robotech, why bother drawing them as Asian? As far as the frankenshow's concerned, they're not Hikaru Ichijyo or Misa Hayase anymore...
(Taking another look at the covers, it looks like I was mistaken and maybe reading into them something that wasn't there. It looks like more of a case of an artist who doesn't know how to draw eyes period rather than the attempt to overcorrect on the character's ethnicity as I'd knee-jerk assumed. I did want to leave the links up though.)
Oh, and this blurb, as well -- could this be a reboot?:
Not just another retelling of the Macross saga … In July, the story continues as we bring Carl Macek’s original vision full circle. Taking into account every iteration of the series, this new Robotech #1 casts a fresh eye over classic characters like Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, Lynn Minmei, Roy Fokker, Claudia Grant, and Henry Gloval. Brian Wood and Marco Turini take us back to a Macross Island where *nothing* can be taken for granted.
Groo: What do you mean, "Slow of mind?"
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Don't worry about the CGL lawyer situation, it is being addressed.
Asked and answered.
Thanks!
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With it being so easy to manipulate images by picking a particular view that makes HG's image look similar to the BT new art, I hope the BT folks take the actual miniatures into court with them so you can see a 360 degree of all the features of the new BT art. This will go a long way to show how DIS-similar they truly are!
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I hope your right. I think it will take HG going out business and their "rights" taken away. Pray inMedia is the one to get them.
As mentioned by others Harmony Gold is extremely unlikely to go out of business as a result of this case, even if it is proven that they do not have the rights they claim.
If it can be proven that Harmony Gold doesn't have the rights it is extremely unlikely that IMR/CGL will ever get them as there would be a huge legal mess and frankly the artwork has proven too expensive and too much trouble for what it is currently worth.
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With it being so easy to manipulate images by picking a particular view that makes HG's image look similar to the BT new art, I hope the BT folks take the actual miniatures into court with them so you can see a 360 degree of all the features of the new BT art. This will go a long way to show how DIS-similar they truly are!
This is my thought exactly, or at the very least, orthographic views of the mechs in question overlayed with their supposed equivalents off to the side, highlighting the differences to make them obvious, even to the average non-mech fan in the jury.
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As an interesting side-note, Return to Macross predates Macross Zero by a number of years
That makes sense as for some reason (Likely a translation error) the Global Civil War is ended by the arrival of the Macross, where as in Macross it starts it, so Roy has to be several years older
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I hope your right. I think it will take HG going out business and their "rights" taken away. Pray inMedia is the one to get them.
Harmony Gold is fundamentally a Real Estate Developer with a sideline in releasing B movies and (rarely) anime. Even if they lost the Robotech property completely, I don't think it'd spell their doom.
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If the 2008-09 real estate crisis didn't kill them, this certainly will not
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That makes sense as for some reason (Likely a translation error) the Global Civil War is ended by the arrival of the Macross, where as in Macross it starts it, so Roy has to be several years older
A translation error in Robotech? Surely not. Carl Macek once said he hired some old dude whose only qualifications to do translation were that he would work for cheap and knew Japanese. But, you know, Macek wasn't always real clear on what the rest of us would call "truth," so his translator may not have had either of those rather dubious qualifications.
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You mean he hired this bloke?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/d_Rra-EShi4/hqdefault.jpg)
:D
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Or quite possibly the other person in the scene.
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A translation error in Robotech? Surely not. Carl Macek once said he hired some old dude whose only qualifications to do translation were that he would work for cheap and knew Japanese. But, you know, Macek wasn't always real clear on what the rest of us would call "truth," so his translator may not have had either of those rather dubious qualifications.
Before this gets too side-tracked into a discussion of Robotech's production...
Tatsunko provided Harmony Gold with translated Macross scripts along with the purchase. Unfortnately, the Tatsunko translators didn't have the best grasp of English, resulting in a somewhat awkard transaltion. It also didn't help that the RT team had a tiny budget and a rediculously tight deadline.
I've never seen the "old man" claim anywhere.
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Isn't that trademarks rights, rather than IP copyrights?
That's correct. Copyrights can be "weakened" or cancelled, but you are not legally required to protect them. However, HG's contract with Tatsunoko could require them to pursue any potential copyright violations or be in breach of contract.
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That's correct. Copyrights can be "weakened" or cancelled, but you are not legally required to protect them. However, HG's contract with Tatsunoko could require them to pursue any potential copyright violations or be in breach of contract.
And that is the 64 Kerensky question in this situation.
What is the nature of Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold's contract?
The previous court case in Japan does offer some insight but not much really.
Of course I expect Harmony Gold to do their utmost to keep the details of their contract out of public record and I don't know enough about the various legalities to know if PGI, HBS, and/or IMR/CGL can force the contract into public record.
Though to be clear as it seems to be at the center of this case I fully expect it to be offered(or demanded) into evidence but that does not mean the contract will enter public record.
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Before this gets too side-tracked into a discussion of Robotech's production...
Tatsunko provided Harmony Gold with translated Macross scripts along with the purchase. Unfortnately, the Tatsunko translators didn't have the best grasp of English, resulting in a somewhat awkard transaltion. It also didn't help that the RT team had a tiny budget and a rediculously tight deadline.
I've never seen the "old man" claim anywhere.
and that was for the original plan of a straight up dub. then they found out they didn't have enough episodes (as a show with a specific airing schedule, it had to meet a minimum episode count to get aired at all in america) resulting in them cobbling together other shows to fill the airtime, and spending (IIRC) less than two weeks rewriting the scripts for all of them to create a shared world and multi-generational saga. between the less than stellar translations of the scripts for all three, and the rush in getting them rewritten, a lot of oddities showed up. (it causes us in the robotech RPG fandom no end of trouble trying to figure out just what the hell is going on sometimes)
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That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image
That thing is sooooo ugly compared to the cyclone toy I had as a kid.
And if THAT is the toy they want to sell, along with that retro video game... wow... I pity the companies producing it. Who thinks the merchandising is going to sink those poor companies?? Does HG really think a new toy line and comic book is really going to do much to advance anything this late in the game?? Even if the movie is released and does ok the merchandising line will probably tank if the toys are ugly as sin.
It does seem really odd though for all this to be happening AFTER they sue. Another reason they waited so long?
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And that is the 64 Kerensky question in this situation.
What is the nature of Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold's contract?
The previous court case in Japan does offer some insight but not much really.
Of course I expect Harmony Gold to do their utmost to keep the details of their contract out of public record and I don't know enough about the various legalities to know if PGI, HBS, and/or IMR/CGL can force the contract into public record.
Though to be clear as it seems to be at the center of this case I fully expect it to be offered(or demanded) into evidence but that does not mean the contract will enter public record.
One could say the same thing about FASA's contract with Twentieth Century Imports from which this entire situation stems...
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Before this gets too side-tracked into a discussion of Robotech's production...
Tatsunko provided Harmony Gold with translated Macross scripts along with the purchase. Unfortnately, the Tatsunko translators didn't have the best grasp of English, resulting in a somewhat awkard transaltion. It also didn't help that the RT team had a tiny budget and a rediculously tight deadline.
I've never seen the "old man" claim anywhere.
Macek and the guy who voiced Rick Hunter were on a panel at Animation on Display (I think?) in 2010, just before his death. Among other things, Macek claimed that each of the Unseen was a combinations of multiple Robotech mecha, and that this had been done deliberately to protect the designs from HG's legal team.
Somebody who actually knows about translation asked him if the dude he hired actually knew anything about translation, and Macek reiterated that he was just some nice old guy he knew who worked for cheap and knew Japanese. But, hey, he also said that he pioneered the idea of having voice actors record their lines in isolated booths because it produced higher-quality acting when the voice actors weren't distracted by other people around them.
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One could say the same thing about FASA's contract with Twentieth Century Imports from which this entire situation stems...
Actually we know a great deal about the final standing of that contract and what it entailed. The previous action brought by Harmony Gold has seen to that.
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and that was for the original plan of a straight up dub. then they found out they didn't have enough episodes (as a show with a specific airing schedule, it had to meet a minimum episode count to get aired at all in america) resulting in them cobbling together other shows to fill the airtime, and spending (IIRC) less than two weeks rewriting the scripts for all of them to create a shared world and multi-generational saga. between the less than stellar translations of the scripts for all three, and the rush in getting them rewritten, a lot of oddities showed up. (it causes us in the robotech RPG fandom no end of trouble trying to figure out just what the hell is going on sometimes)
I believe that Syndication requires 13 weeks worth of episodes (At least at the time) so 13 episodes would have been enough if they only wanted to air one or two a week, someone however decided that they wanted 5 days a week however meaning they needed at least 65.
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Aaaand one peice of speculation.
https://deadline.com/2017/07/sony-pictures-tv-networks-acquires-majority-stake-funimation-japanese-anime-1202139652/
Could be unrelated.
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Aaaand one peice of speculation.
https://deadline.com/2017/07/sony-pictures-tv-networks-acquires-majority-stake-funimation-japanese-anime-1202139652/
Could be unrelated.
Probably unrelated. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) a deal between Cacophony Pyrite and FUNimation that brought The Shadow Chronicles to fruition was apparently broken when CP walked away for unknown reasons.
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Unless Sony is trying to find an avenue around Harmony Gold.
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Unlikely so long as HG has distribution rights (unless this case shows that to be invalid). Shame too... As much as I enjoy Robotech in my youth I really want to see the original anime versions of the three. I would probably enjoy the Southern Cross arc better that way as in the Robotech rendition it was my least favorite.
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Probably unrelated. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) a deal between Cacophony Pyrite and FUNimation that brought The Shadow Chronicles to fruition was apparently broken when CP walked away for unknown reasons.
We can at least call the company by its proper name. That said, if there were contacts between Funi and Harmony Gold, that might be part of a potential franchise expansion. Hell, if it leads to Funi officially bringing over Macross stuff because HG gets pushed into permitting it as part of the film deal, I'm all for that.
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And that is the 64 Kerensky question in this situation.
What is the nature of Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold's contract?
Is that really the main question? If the new images don't infringe, as i'm told us the case, does it matter? And if they are found to infringe but that hg doesn't hold the rights, are they worth risking a possible future suit if and when their owner is determined?
It is a question, yes, but the best case scenario is still a verdict of non-infringement.
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I'm fairly certain that any work done by anybody on The Shadow Chronicles will have been art for hire, buying up the companies that did said art gives Sony no advantage in negotiations (At least for a live action film)
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The shadow chronicles art was the same as that from the Invid Invasion and not Macross so who did it doesn't really matter. The real question becomes which of the three stories the movie will follow. Attempting Macross would probably open up a can of worms for HG in Japan as well as ruffle Sony a bit back home where there would be an uproar over a live action film they couldn't see (plus whatever trouble Studio Nue might cause for Sony back home). If HG does have possible contractual issue with the Macross IP due to past court cases in Japan that would be another reason not to use Macross in the movie. Also explains why they have focused new animated movie on the Invid Invasion portion of the show. Not sure what kind of art Macross based comics have used so can't accurately speculate over the reason for not doing any new Macross themed animated shows/movies.
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Actually we know a great deal about the final standing of that contract and what it entailed. The previous action brought by Harmony Gold has seen to that.
What is known? I've only been able to turn up very little on it :(
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We also have the three mystery HG documents from the previous case. Considering those will probably come up during discovery, who knows how that will unfold. Maybe those could have clinched things in '96, but finances by FASA were too limited to continue.
Now I have images in my head of Mentok the Mindtaker and Shado the Brainthief from Harvey Birdman.
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Or quite possibly the other person in the scene.
Jeff Goldblum?
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Nooooo not him tooooo!!!!
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Is that really the main question? If the new images don't infringe, as i'm told us the case, does it matter? And if they are found to infringe but that hg doesn't hold the rights, are they worth risking a possible future suit if and when their owner is determined?
It is a question, yes, but the best case scenario is still a verdict of non-infringement.
Yes.
My ideal scenario is that the NuSeen are found to be non-infringing, and Battletech moves on using them as artwork for the relevant designs, never looking back at Macross, Robotech, or Harmony Gold again.
*cue credits*
Will that happen? I have no idea. I also doubt we will find out for quite some time. I'm hoping CGL can push forward with time periods that are less dependent on those particular designs in the meantime.
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What is known? I've only been able to turn up very little on it :(
It granted FASA rights to use the Macross images. As far as anyone has been able to determine it it did nothing more than that. The resulting legal action from Harmony Gold and the out of court settlement that lead to the unseen and this situation have been pretty well covered.
Is that really the main question? If the new images don't infringe, as i'm told us the case, does it matter? And if they are found to infringe but that hg doesn't hold the rights, are they worth risking a possible future suit if and when their owner is determined?
It is a question, yes, but the best case scenario is still a verdict of non-infringement.
It is a big part of PGI and HBS's defense strategy. So perhaps not the most important question but certainly important. Thus it only being the 64 Kerensky question and not the million Kerensky question.
If PGI and HBS do manage to prove that Harmony Gold does not have the rights they do and it is determined that the images do not infringe then things will be interesting from then on out.
And now I am wondering if Sony increasing it's ownership of FUNimation might be a move on their part to prepare for Harmony Gold's defeat in this case.
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.... if they are found to infringe but that hg doesn't hold the rights, are they worth risking a possible future suit if and when their owner is determined?
If that is the case it would be up to Studio Nue (Big West too?) which is a lot easier to deal with. Send them the images of the new classics and ask directly. I am pretty sure they would be far easier to work with on the issue than HG.
Awhile back art was done for the Japanese version of BT which was discussed a bit here http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34547.0 I think it was Studio Nue that did the work and was also mentioned in that thread.
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It granted FASA rights to use the Macross images. As far as anyone has been able to determine it it did nothing more than that. The resulting legal action from Harmony Gold and the out of court settlement that lead to the unseen and this situation have been pretty well covered.
Twentieth Century Imports brought over Japanese Mecha models and games from Japan to the United States. In some cases, they translated accompanying Japanese documentation into English. In other cases, they simply re-branded the boxes themselves, such as in the case of "Star Battleship Yamoto" to "Starblazers" while retaining the original Japanese box art. In the case of the TCI BattleTech-branded plastic model kits, they created a single new box for the entire line (with the exception, I believe, of set #12 with the Leopard (Minerva)), featuring the iconic Warhammer art done from FASA by Alan Gutierrez on each of them.
The question, which I believe is still unresolved, is what rights did TCI have to the Macross designs that they could license to FASA? And what happened to this right when out of business. FASA's relationship with TCI seemed to have ended by 1986 at they abandoned the 3" plastic model line pretty quickly.
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Twentieth Century Imports brought over Japanese Mecha models and games from Japan to the United States. In some cases, they translated accompanying Japanese documentation into English. In other cases, they simply re-branded the boxes themselves, such as in the case of "Star Battleship Yamoto" to "Starblazers" while retaining the original Japanese box art. In the case of the TCI BattleTech-branded plastic model kits, they created a single new box for the entire line (with the exception, I believe, of set #12 with the Leopard (Minerva)), featuring the iconic Warhammer art done from FASA by Alan Gutierrez on each of them.
The question, which I believe is still unresolved, is what rights did TCI have to the Macross designs that they could license to FASA? And what happened to this right when out of business. FASA's relationship with TCI seemed to have ended by 1986 at they abandoned the 3" plastic model line pretty quickly.
What actual rights TCI had don't actually matter but as far as I am aware they didn't have sufficient grounds to make the deal that they did with FASA or else Harmony Gold wouldn't have been able to bring the original case.
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that is actually why the question of what rights TCI did or didn't have matters.. because while you believe they didn't, others do believe they did, ergo the frequent arguments over the issue.
knowing exactly what rights TCI did or did not have would resolve the question of "how legal were the unseen to begin with" and stop a lot of the arguments over them.
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And now I am wondering if Sony increasing it's ownership of FUNimation might be a move on their part to prepare for Harmony Gold's defeat in this case.
I'm not sold on the idea that the reason for Sony's purchase was as a contingency in case that company lost this rinky-dink (to Sony's mind) case. More likely, the purchase was predicated on the idea that buying FUNimation would give Sony access to the rights to a much larger galaxy of anime properties that FUNimation has US rights to, and that Sony could conceivably exploit.
I highly doubt they're going to sink $150 mil just to shore up the film rights to one property -- and by buying a company that is only tangentially related to those rights at that --, when the same amount of money could net them many more with vastly fewer legal headaches.
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Was trolling youtube most of the night and ran across a few odds n ends others might find... interesting.
First dates back to when WB still had the movie license: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm3eRmtg3mI&feature=youtu.be&t=25
The other is a short vid on why we don't see any Macross anime. Has a few things in there that people may already know or find interesting, though probably won't have any affect on the current case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVd44TTEVyA
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that is actually why the question of what rights TCI did or didn't have matters.. because while you believe they didn't, others do believe they did, ergo the frequent arguments over the issue.
knowing exactly what rights TCI did or did not have would resolve the question of "how legal were the unseen to begin with" and stop a lot of the arguments over them.
As much as people wonder about the American Civil court system I do find it hard to believe that a Judge wouldn't outright throw out the Harmony Gold vs FASA case if TCI had the rights and the option to sub-license them. Now it is entirely possible that it is the second part of that catch that was the issue, to sub-license.
Either way when FASA signed the deal with Harmony Gold it doesn't really matter what TCI's actual rights were as it was an admission that Harmony Gold was right and that TCI didn't have the rights to have made the deal. The only way to prove otherwise at this point is to prove Harmony Gold never had the rights they claim they do.
I'm not sold on the idea that the reason for Sony's purchase was as a contingency in case that company lost this rinky-dink (to Sony's mind) case. More likely, the purchase was predicated on the idea that buying FUNimation would give Sony access to the rights to a much larger galaxy of anime properties that FUNimation has US rights to, and that Sony could conceivably exploit.
I highly doubt they're going to sink $150 mil just to shore up the film rights to one property -- and by buying a company that is only tangentially related to those rights at that --, when the same amount of money could net them many more with vastly fewer legal headaches.
You're thinking about it half wrong. Yes it is possible that they are increasing their ownership to be able to make a deal with the actual IP owners of Macross in the case of Harmony Gold's defeat but what is more likely is what you pointed out. They are increasing their access to other IPs to potentially exploit.
Now they could be doing that so that they can just have the properties but having another property already in your grasp ready to go if this case does go against Harmony Gold doesn't hurt any.
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actually the problem back then was when HG and FASA went at it, TCI had already closed down, and had taken any records it had possessed as to the nature of its original acquisition of the rights it gave FASA into limbo somewhere.
so ultimately FASA at the time had a license which on paper looked perfectly legal and valid.. but which was of unverifiable origin.
HG's case hinged on showing that TCI had no actual rights, FASA's that they did, but neither FASA or HG could prove their stances while TCI and its records were MIA.
generally courts give license holders benefit of the doubt when they can produce a valid contract (which FASA had with TCI), and since it got settled out of court, we never got a ruling as to whether FASA's liscense through TCI would be considered valid or not. certainly HG seemed to think the odds of it being overturned was low enough to warrant settling out of court, something usually done when the outcome would be in doubt.
and FASA agreeing to deal with HG does not count as an admission of guilt.. just an admission that the issue was a complicated one and that it wasn't worth spending a fortune on. and an admission that HG's rights (as perceived at the time) superceeded the ones FASA got through TCI. which doesn't mean diddly squat as far as validity, just that HG had a contract from a more direct source.
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Either way when FASA signed the deal with Harmony Gold it doesn't really matter what TCI's actual rights were as it was an admission that Harmony Gold was right and that TCI didn't have the rights to have made the deal.
Point of order: that isn't automatically true. The majority of settlements admit no fault on either side. You can consider one side or the other to be the 'winner' if you like based on the terms of the agreement, but I doubt that FASA admitted fault in the agreement.
On another note, it looks like we won't get to see many of the more interesting documents that may be part of this case. HG filed for, and was granted, an order to allow the parties to keep confidential business information off the public docket. It's a pretty standard thing to ask for and totally reasonable so I'm not surprised. It's likely that the majority of the stuff that could come out in discovery will be confidential business information, so it looks like we won't all get to see that original license agreement HG has.
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As far as I am aware, FASA settled with HG not because FASA was in the wrong or didn't have the right to use those images (as far as they were concerned they had bought the rights in good faith from TCI) but rather that after all the trouble with Playnates it was decided it was easier to simply stop using the troublesome images that to fight it in court.
So basically they settled with HG, not because they had done anything wrong, but because it didn't seem a good business move to fight it.
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TCI's agreement with FASA may be of historical interest, but has no bearing on this current case. Once HG and FASA settled, that matter was decided. The motivations of the people and companies involved in the prior case are irrelevant.
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You're thinking about it half wrong. Yes it is possible that they are increasing their ownership to be able to make a deal with the actual IP owners of Macross in the case of Harmony Gold's defeat but what is more likely is what you pointed out. They are increasing their access to other IPs to potentially exploit.
Now they could be doing that so that they can just have the properties but having another property already in your grasp ready to go if this case does go against Harmony Gold doesn't hurt any.
We might be talking at cross purposes here ;) -- all I was getting at is that I believe the Sony buys FUNimation announcement is probably coincidental and completely unconnected to the current legal case excepting only as far as FUNimation once had a business deal to distribute Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles... I wasn't saying anything about any theoretical designs that Sony may or may not have on Tatsunoko, Big West, Studio Nue or anyone else.
Though you're right, even as a coincidence, it doesn't hurt to have other irons in the fire... and any of those properties HAS to be better than The Emoji Movie ;D
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Point of order: that isn't automatically true. The majority of settlements admit no fault on either side. You can consider one side or the other to be the 'winner' if you like based on the terms of the agreement, but I doubt that FASA admitted fault in the agreement.
On another note, it looks like we won't get to see many of the more interesting documents that may be part of this case. HG filed for, and was granted, an order to allow the parties to keep confidential business information off the public docket. It's a pretty standard thing to ask for and totally reasonable so I'm not surprised. It's likely that the majority of the stuff that could come out in discovery will be confidential business information, so it looks like we won't all get to see that original license agreement HG has.
If the end result is that FASA couldn't use the Macross art anymore the end result is the same and Harmony Gold can and is pointing to the signed document saying that they have a legally binding agreement where FASA and Jordan agreed to not use the Macross art and recognize Harmony Gold's rights.
TCI's agreement with FASA may be of historical interest, but has no bearing on this current case. Once HG and FASA settled, that matter was decided. The motivations of the people and companies involved in the prior case are irrelevant.
And that's what I've been trying to say. When that document was signed FASA gave up their case and recognized Harmony Gold's claim.
We might be talking at cross purposes here ;) -- all I was getting at is that I believe the Sony buys FUNimation announcement is probably coincidental and completely unconnected to the current legal case excepting only as far as FUNimation once had a business deal to distribute Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles... I wasn't saying anything about any theoretical designs that Sony may or may not have on Tatsunoko, Big West, Studio Nue or anyone else.
Though you're right, even as a coincidence, it doesn't hurt to have other irons in the fire... and any of those properties HAS to be better than The Emoji Movie ;D
*nod*
I too think it is less of a move to get better access to the Macross rights but the timing sure does suggest that at least somewhere in a Sony meeting they were considering the possibility that Harmony Gold might lose this case hard as PGI has made the claim that Harmony Gold doesn't actually have the rights and a back up plan might be in order. Since this move does give them other IPs and even a possible alternate avenue to shore up the Macross rights it seems to be the best of both worlds from Sony's perspective.
Hell thinking about it it does seem a pretty win-win move for Sony. Harmony Gold wins and their control of FUNimation means they can get a piece of the Macross/Robotech pie through FUNimation and their planned live action movie. Harmony Gold loses and they get other IPs and a possible way to still end up with the Macross/Robotech rights.
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Looking over Sony's last few films makes me think that their movie division has no idea what they're doing with their licenses. They're throwing handfuls of crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm sure they merely bought FUNimation in their ongoing quest to make All The Money, like every other big entertainment company.
Harmony Gold may think the Sony deal is a important, but Sony likely regards HG as basically nothing. They've got the Robotech movie rights, and that's all they wanted.
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Yeah I doubt Sony actually gives a crap about this case but they can't be completely unaware of it either. Only really the timing makes me wonder if Sony is hedging their bets by increasing ownership of FUNimation because as I said it seems a win-win for Sony to do so.
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Since this move does give them other IPs and even a possible alternate avenue to shore up the Macross rights it seems to be the best of both worlds from Sony's perspective.
Hell thinking about it it does seem a pretty win-win move for Sony. Harmony Gold wins and their control of FUNimation means they can get a piece of the Macross/Robotech pie through FUNimation and their planned live action movie. Harmony Gold loses and they get other IPs and a possible way to still end up with the Macross/Robotech rights.
I'm sorry... maybe I'm just being dense (or not paying attention enough), but I'm not seeing the path to the Macross/Robotech rights through FUNimation. AFAIK, The sole interest that FUNimation has in Robotech is the distribution rights to The Shadow Chronicles movie, and even that IIRC, lapsed when the other side walked away from the agreement later on. Again AFAIK, they have zero other interest in the property stemming from either side of the Pacific (I don't recall them releasing Macross Plus or Macross II, and ADV released the three original series). To say that Sony could get rights to Macross, Southern Cross and Mosepeada (and/or Robotech) through buying Funimation seems to my mind like me trying to get the rights to the design patent for the Ford Mustang if I were to buy Hertz Rent-a-Car.
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I'm sorry... maybe I'm just being dense (or not paying attention enough), but I'm not seeing the path to the Macross/Robotech rights through FUNimation. AFAIK, The sole interest that FUNimation has in Robotech is the distribution rights to The Shadow Chronicles movie, and even that IIRC, lapsed when the other side walked away from the agreement later on. Again AFAIK, they have zero other interest in the property stemming from either side of the Pacific (I don't recall them releasing Macross Plus or Macross II, and ADV released the three original series). To say that Sony could get rights to Macross, Southern Cross and Mosepeada (and/or Robotech) through buying Funimation seems to my mind like me trying to get the rights to the design patent for the Ford Mustang if I were to buy Hertz Rent-a-Car.
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. The FUNimation acquisition also appears to be irrelevant here.
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IF PGI does convince the judge and jury that Harmony Gold doesn't have the rights to Macross that they claim then FUNimation gives Sony a possible option of negotiating with those who do with as an existing anime distributer.
If Harmony Gold does retain the rights then Sony can use FUNimation and their live action movie deal to make future deals to distribute Macross/Robotech.
Or most likely scenario Sony is just looking to acquire more IPs.
So using the analogy above reworked for what I'm trying to say is more like Sony bought Enterprise Rent a Car because Hertz may lose their deal to stock Ford Mustangs and Enterprise gives them another option to stock Ford Mustangs.
For I do admit the last scenario is probably the most likely.
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IF PGI does convince the judge and jury that Harmony Gold doesn't have the rights to Macross that they claim then FUNimation gives Sony a possible option of negotiating with those who do with as an existing anime distributer.
Actually that won't happen. The Macross creators don't want to do anything with companies that work with HG. Very bad blood there.
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I'm not sure if FUNimation has that guilt by association though. Or even Sony I could easily be wrong about that though.
But in thinking about it Harmony Gold clearly does not actually own Macross. Their contract clearly allows them to distribute Macross and they chose to do so by fiddling with it to make Robotech. As such there could be some interesting implications from this case if it does go to trial.
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Sony has better chance getting the right than HG. Their Japanese company to begin with.
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Sony has better chance getting the right than HG. Their Japanese company to begin with.
Which only matters if they do a live action Macross. For Robotech they need the rights from HG.
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Which only matters if they do a live action Macross. For Robotech they need the rights from HG.
Given it enough time. Alot properties in Japan's anime world have been routinely been made into live-action. Given how Macross franchise has been handled late, seeing one of it's various series turned to live-action won't terribly surprise me much.
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Which only matters if they do a live action Macross. For Robotech they need the rights from HG.
The only rights for Robotech would be a vague story. Most of the Macross arc of Robotech follows the Macross story. Beyond that about the only thing HG really own is the Title of Robotech.
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Given it enough time. Alot properties in Japan's anime world have been routinely been made into live-action. Given how Macross franchise has been handled late, seeing one of it's various series turned to live-action won't terribly surprise me much.
Apparently, Kawamori did actually try to do a American-based live-action adaptation of Macross (http://www.decultureshock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Macross-Live-Action-Movie-Treatment-1992.pdf) in 1992. It went nowhere, whether this was because of that company threatening legal action, other externals, or Kawamori losing interest in direct sequels to SDF Macross (as this was about the time he started working heavily on Escaflowne, and at any rate soon after when he was given a wheelbarrow full of money and begged to do a Macross sequel, he stipulated that he would not revisit Hikaru, Misa and Minmay according to rumor). My guess is probably a mix.
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Or most likely scenario Sony is just looking to acquire more IPs.
This is more likely. I very much doubt the mega-corporation Sony is going through allot of trouble just for a Robotech movie, Sony Pictures has a very extensive list of movie projects as is. Any interest Sony has in Robotech is most likely tied to Hollywood still mining the Nostalgia market hard (the new Jumanji, only now it's a cursed Atari game or something)
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*nod*
The whole mine old IPs for new movies schtick going on in Hollywood is the only reason I think something might actually come out for Macross/Robotech.
And as I've said there really seems to be no reason for Sony not to make the move. Only the timing makes me think some small part of it was to have a plan B-Z.
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Movie die in pre-production all the time (Forbidden Planet was the only remake I was actually looking forward to) not that it has anything to do with HG's insane logic.
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Makes one wonder if they would do a remake of Robot Jox or Zardoz }:)
Speaking of Zardoz.. There is a theater in Atlanta that has/had it showing as well as Rocky Horror Picture Show.
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Considering how many IPs have already been raided, even ones that never had that big a following, it isn't impossible that Macross will get a live action movie sooner rather than later.
Can't be any worse than Bayformers.
Though more seriously I do have zero doubt that Sony's current effort is nothing but a squat on the IP vaporware production.
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Can't be any worse than Bayformers.
That's setting the bar pretty low... honestly, that's not a standard anyone should live by.
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Makes one wonder if they would do a remake of Robot Jox or Zardoz }:)
A Mule-class hovering over the plains, spewing Stingers from its guts. "But the Battlemech shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill!"
I mean seriously.
...Well hell, there goes my avatar.
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That's setting the bar pretty low... honestly, that's not a standard anyone should live by.
And he's assuming that Bay won't end up making it.
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...Well hell, there goes my avatar.
Glad I could ruin someones day lol >:D
I read once that Zardoz was the one movie Sean Connery regrets being in. It was pretty horrible it a train wreck watching kinda way :P :o
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A Mule-class hovering over the plains, spewing Stingers from its guts. "But the Battlemech shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill!"
Oh that just made my morning.
Thank you...
I read once that Zardoz was the one movie Sean Connery regrets being in. It was pretty horrible it a train wreck watching kinda way :P :o
Gawd, I haven't watched Zardoz in years. But that film is a real guilty pleasure of mine.
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Or most likely scenario Sony is just looking to acquire more IPs.
Buying FUNimation is not the path to IP acquisition. Sony Pictures Television, the division that made the actual acquisition of FUNimation, is a massive player in the television distribution market, owing to decades of mergers and acquisitions. Here's a list of what they are involved with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Pictures_Television_series
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And he's assuming that Bay won't end up making it.
Seems unlikely that he'd get involved. I'm struggling to think of any movies he has done that were Sony. Most everything I can think of has been Paramount. Not saying he can't or hasn't worked for Sony though.
Buying FUNimation is not the path to IP acquisition. Sony Pictures Television, the division that made the actual acquisition of FUNimation, is a massive player in the television distribution market, owing to decades of mergers and acquisitions. Here's a list of what they are involved with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Pictures_Television_series
Yeah I probably could have phrased it better that they are not trying to own IPs but this move certainly gives them more access to existing licensing deals and a platform that can help them get access to more and make them more money in the end.
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And he's assuming that Bay won't end up making it.
Bay isn't the worst person to helm a Robotech (or Battletech, for that matter) film. That would be The Director That Shall Not Be Named (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uwe_Boll) >:D. Now, don't get me wrong, Bay would be far, far from the best director they could get...
I read once that Zardoz was the one movie Sean Connery regrets being in. It was pretty horrible it a train wreck watching kinda way :P :o
Well, Sean Connery wanted a film that would be the furthest thing he could find from James Bond. He got his wish ;D
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What does any of that have to do with this lawsuit? Please take movie discussion to a different thread.
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Any word on CGL's lawyer situation?
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Any word on CGL's lawyer situation?
They have a lawyer. When there is something to report, I will make sure we all know about it.
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I am going to throw in my 2 cents for what its worth, I have followed this issue for many years with a passion, I want our mechs back in the universe and I think if Catalyst and the other parties involved stand up to Harmony Gold they can win this issue. Now is the time to stand up to the high school bully and punch him in the nose.
Battletech has the potential to be a money maker if you want to fight for it! And we are talking about quit your day job type of potential money maker status! ;)
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My Warhammer and Marauder are still in my MWO hanger so it's a little early to scream 'doom!' or presume everyone is just laying down. This isn't Judge Judy, we are not going to see every minute of this argument and it will take a hell of allot longer than 15-30 min. My only real concern (other than the judge being a idiot) is that HG will try to drag this out and tie everything up.
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IMR/CGL probably does have the best chance of getting out of this just fine as there seems to be no claim against the new Classic art.
HBS next best as they can as a worst case scenario point out that they haven't actually used the most questionable designs yet and the ones they have used mentioned in the suit look pretty distinctly different.
PGI, well some of those designs are a bit close even to my eye. But they seem prepared to fight.
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Actually HBS has the least to worry about as they only licensed the models from PGI. CGL is IMO in the worst position. The last casefile I found had HG trying to go after CGL based on the prototype minis in CM Merc as well as the Marauder art. I don't remember anything other than the Marauder and Warhammer being attacked though. The link for that PDF is either here or over in the HG discussion at the HBS forums. I just hope that CGL can afford to take this to trial as PGI wants to do. It would be nice to see this issue resolved once and for all with out another BS settlement.
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IIRC the Marauder and Warhammer are about the only ones released so far that were originally macross derived unseen. we haven't had hint of what the the archer or crusader looks like yet at all, and the Wasp, stinger, and p-hawk hadn't been released yet when the case got filed. but i would presume that if the marauder and warhammer get hit as infringing, all the others will be cancelled until they can be massively redesigned.
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Actually HBS has the least to worry about as they only licensed the models from PGI. CGL is IMO in the worst position. The last casefile I found had HG trying to go after CGL based on the prototype minis in CM Merc as well as the Marauder art. I don't remember anything other than the Marauder and Warhammer being attacked though. The link for that PDF is either here or over in the HG discussion at the HBS forums. I just hope that CGL can afford to take this to trial as PGI wants to do. It would be nice to see this issue resolved once and for all with out another BS settlement.
Unless the complaint has been amended and the publicly available documents not been updated there is nothing in Harmony Gold's lawsuit about the new Classic art.
Now that doesn't change the fact that I agree that CGL has the most to lose if this goes bad. From the documents I can get my hands on their case actually seems easiest to win.
HBS's case isn't much worse or harder really because as you mention they are only sub-licensing.
IIRC the Marauder and Warhammer are about the only ones released so far that were originally macross derived unseen. we haven't had hint of what the the archer or crusader looks like yet at all, and the Wasp, stinger, and p-hawk hadn't been released yet when the case got filed. but i would presume that if the marauder and warhammer get hit as infringing, all the others will be cancelled until they can be massively redesigned.
We have new CClassic Archer art. Now when it came out in relation to this lawsuit I'm not sure.
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The lawsuit was amended and does include the new CGL Marauder, Archer, and Warhammer. This has been previously mentioned in this thread.
https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/
See item 31.
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Another point of speculation floating around is that the real reason for involving HBS was to get the case in a US court rather than a Canadian one since that is where PGI is based. It is possible that CGL was just tossed in as an afterthought to handle all the little fish at the same time or just scare all the other little fish.
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If you look at Docket item 32 it has an interesting line in the Statement of Plantiff.
In the 1996 agreement, which was entered pursuant to a lawsuit for copyright infringement against Mr. Weisman and certain of his business partners, Mr. Weisman agreed that he would not “make any use, and will not authorize [his] licensees to make any use, of the visual design images of the twelve (12) Battlemechs listed below except as provided in this agreement.”
It looks like that is a direct quote from the 1996 agreement- what I am curious about is the exceptions provided by the agreement. That could be very interesting.
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FASA and Ral Partha were allowed to sell off their remaining stock of infringing material. RP listed the Unseen for years after the settlement.
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Okay I was grabbing an out of date document. Which I won't be surprised if it is amended again.
To be honest it does just make me even more convinced that we as fans should have demanded even more distinctly different art for those mechs and that far too many perfect chances to put this behind us once and for all have been wasted.
While the Classic art does look distinct enough to me I'm not on the jury(yet, I do live in the area where the jury can be pulled from when time comes).
Which is the only part that still worries me.
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Yrs...but on tne amended docket, it keeps referring to the new models as "Based on"
I don't think that's the standard for copyright infringement.
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Yrs...but on tne amended docket, it keeps referring to the new models as "Based on"
I don't think that's the standard for copyright infringement.
Yes, it is. Most copyright litigation is not over direct reproduction, but instead about what are called "derivative works." The classic example is the intro to Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby" as compared to the bassline of Queen and David Bowie's "Under Pressure."
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Okay, here's what we've been waiting for: Leonard French, an actual copyright attorney, reviews this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPou5WuE-Y4
I'll let him speak for himself.
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"Well, they're both humanoid robots."
A rousing endorsement of Harmony Gold!
All told, pretty interesting assessment.
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The thought of Harmony Gold lawyers poring over my fan fiction for derivative works is kind of creepy, but this is pretty much as I might have expected.
The license chain for the 'Mech designs is still pretty opaque to me regarding the four companies I consider the mainstays; Catalyst, Piranha, Harebrained, and Iron Winds. Oh, and Microsoft.
The thought of me having some sort of project where I would necessarily have a good cause to want a license is pretty far-fetched. But, say, I wanted to have a BattleTech novel published, or something. I mean, I don't see any other way around Catalyst, which is, actually, optimal, right? I certainly would feel more comfortable approaching a company with this much love for the BattleTech Universe than a generic copyright-holder. I don't see a scenario where I would want to ask Harmony Gold for permission, or pay them, because I write a story in which I describe a Rifleman, even briefly.
So, the gentleman has done a good job of dusting off the worst cobwebs and rank speculation and for that he deserves some gratitude, at least. I look forward to the next update.
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The interesting part is that reading through the comments Tatsunoko did try and break Harmony Gold's grip on Macross but lost.
The lack of restraining orders and cease and desist orders is interesting and does seem to suggest Harmony Gold is more looking for a settlement than a fight.
As such I hope PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL do manage to fight and win.
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The thought of Harmony Gold lawyers poring over my fan fiction for derivative works is kind of creepy, but this is pretty much as I might have expected.
The license chain for the 'Mech designs is still pretty opaque to me regarding the four companies I consider the mainstays; Catalyst, Piranha, Harebrained, and Iron Winds. Oh, and Microsoft.
The thought of me having some sort of project where I would necessarily have a good cause to want a license is pretty far-fetched. But, say, I wanted to have a BattleTech novel published, or something. I mean, I don't see any other way around Catalyst, which is, actually, optimal, right? I certainly would feel more comfortable approaching a company with this much love for the BattleTech Universe than a generic copyright-holder. I don't see a scenario where I would want to ask Harmony Gold for permission, or pay them, because I write a story in which I describe a Rifleman, even briefly.
So, the gentleman has done a good job of dusting off the worst cobwebs and rank speculation and for that he deserves some gratitude, at least. I look forward to the next update.
Catalyst not only allows fanfic, they implicitly encourage it, as long as it's not for sale.
And FYI:
BattleTech boardgames and novels: Owner is Topps, Inc. They license it to InMediaRes, who publishes products under their Catalyst Game Labs imprint. Topps also licenses the visual designs to Iron Wind Metals to produce miniatures.
BattleTech video games: Owner is Microsoft. They license it to Piranha Games Inc., who publish MechWarrior Online, and PGI has sublicensed their visual designs to Harebrained Schemes for the new BattleTech video game.
The two franchises (BT tabletop and BT video game) share a universe up to roughly the start of the Jihad, but due to licensing weirdness use different visual designs.
The lack of restraining orders and cease and desist orders is interesting and does seem to suggest Harmony Gold is more looking for a settlement than a fight.
Yes, that was something I hadn't considered, either. Very interesting.
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I find it interesting that the RT fans seem to hate HG just as much as the BT fans do. 30 plus years with that IP and very little done with it. Got several friends who would love to see that change and have RT grow again, but they're all convinced it won't happen until someone else (somehow) gets control of RT. Don't see that happening anytime soon.
Very curious to see if this goes to trial. There are a couple of images that might be iffy, but then others (compairing the redesigned Shadow Hawk to a Destroid Spartan?!) aren't even close.
I as well hope that all of our BT folks put up a good fight and come out on top and put this BS to rest once and for all.
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The interesting part is that reading through the comments Tatsunoko did try and break Harmony Gold's grip on Macross but lost.
The lack of restraining orders and cease and desist orders is interesting and does seem to suggest Harmony Gold is more looking for a settlement than a fight.
As such I hope PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL do manage to fight and win.
My thinking is that HG thought they could intimidate them into settling out of court. But PGI/HBS et al called their bluff. (Which might explain the laughable selection of images.)
I find it interesting that the RT fans seem to hate HG just as much as the BT fans do. 30 plus years with that IP and very little done with it. Got several friends who would love to see that change and have RT grow again, but they're all convinced it won't happen until someone else (somehow) gets control of RT. Don't see that happening anytime soon.
Very curious to see if this goes to trial. There are a couple of images that might be iffy, but then others (compairing the redesigned Shadow Hawk to a Destroid Spartan?!) aren't even close.
I as well hope that all of our BT folks put up a good fight and come out on top and put this BS to rest once and for all.
The question that I am most curious about is what happens if it goes completely against HG and is decided that their copyright is void because they bought the rights from the wrong holder? They own RoboTech...but if they lose the rights to Macross...what exactly is left of RoboTech? Just the story? (Granted I doubt it will go that far, but highlights the curious nature of the case.)
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No idea. It's almost certainly outside the purview of this case.
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If CGL has retained legal counsel how long until we see a new docket entry? I would hope soon. The longer it takes the more agitated and worried the forums may become.
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It's really interesting to me how flexible "significant similarity" can be. To me, and I'm not an artist, I see a large number of similar visual components - take the Rifleman, a forward projecting "Cockpit" central section with two upward-projecting "side torsos" with a radar antenna on top, two gun barrels in each arm, a similar two-toed foot design, a general reverse-curve to the shape of the front of the lower leg. All of those they both have in common, yet this lawyer doesn't seem to see much strength in HG's argument. So what IS the requirement for showing too many things in common? Is it specifically using the exact art from Macross/Robotech (which has happened waaaaay back in the day) and redrawing something similar, but not using the same artwork, safe?
If CGL has retained legal counsel how long until we see a new docket entry? I would hope soon. The longer it takes the more agitated and worried the forums may become.
Then in all honesty, then the forums need to grow up and learn patience. It's not like we don't know how long it'll be, the jury trial is set for September. So we just wait. And meanwhile there's still books coming out from Catalyst with 'Mechs in them and things to play with; it's not like this has jammed up everything.
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My thinking is that HG thought they could intimidate them into settling out of court. But PGI/HBS et al called their bluff. (Which might explain the laughable selection of images.)
I wouldn't call their image selection too laughable really. We have a bias that helps us spot the differences and say that aforementioned differences are sufficient.
To those less biased and emotionally invested PGI's art in question and the Classics art of IMR/CGL are close enough that a jury could easily side with Harmony Gold unless a good case is made that helps point out how different they really are.
HBS though should have no trouble getting their portion of those claims decided in their favor.
Then in all honesty, then the forums need to grow up and learn patience. It's not like we don't know how long it'll be, the jury trial is set for September. So we just wait. And meanwhile there's still books coming out from Catalyst with 'Mechs in them and things to play with; it's not like this has jammed up everything.
The only thing I worry about is how many products could potentially be impacted by an unfavorable result and having to start all over with new art again.
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If CGL has retained legal counsel how long until we see a new docket entry? I would hope soon. The longer it takes the more agitated and worried the forums may become.
As Leonard French said, this is the "discovery" phase. The lawyers for each side will be communicating, trading information and documents, and negotiating. They could come to an agreement tomorrow and the whole thing will be over, or they might not be able to find common ground and then things will move to the next stage, which (I believe) would be a round of presenting new amended complaints and responses.
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The question that I am most curious about is what happens if it goes completely against HG and is decided that their copyright is void because they bought the rights from the wrong holder? They own RoboTech...but if they lose the rights to Macross...what exactly is left of RoboTech? Just the story? (Granted I doubt it will go that far, but highlights the curious nature of the case.)
What would happen then is that they would lose the ground to sue. In respect to the Macross stuff they would be distributors (In the form of Robotech) only, nothing more, the Southern Cross and Mospedia stuff is more likely to hold up.
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if the court decides that HG does not legally have the rights? they lose the case, and we all continue to do what we're doing.
it'll be the followup case where one of the anime companies sues HG over use of an invalid license that would have the big effect for them.. assuming such a case occurs.
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So when does Harmony Gold sue the Victorian Board of Education?
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over?? Thats new and sounds interesting :P
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Old but humorous
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html)
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Must have been some history lesson :P And someone has some good art skills to make it look as its actually part of the illustration.
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You folks might find this interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPou5WuE-Y4&feature=youtu.be
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ColBosch beat you to it.
Okay, here's what we've been waiting for: Leonard French, an actual copyright attorney, reviews this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPou5WuE-Y4
I'll let him speak for himself.
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ColBosch beat you to it.
Fiend! *shakes fish*
:D :D
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OK for us guys stuck at work and cant play the video, can someone give the jest of what he says?
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Short version:
PGI and IMR/CGL's art are close enough that it'd be up to a jury to decide.
HBS' designs are not even close.
The rest he doesn't really talk about one way or the other.
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HG claims against HBS are a bit laughable. PGI and CGL... not so cut n dry. Will depend on how the jury sees it and how do you point out copyrightable areas on these giant warrior robots.
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Old but humorous
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html)
Now, I'm not perticularly versed in copywrite law, but if memory serves when that picture on the exam was last brought up, it was pointed out that the article did identify the mech as a BattleTech Marauder, and not an Officer Pod or anything else. One comentor sugested that that spoke to the fact that that image is one that is publicly accocated with the Marauder, and that it might be significant if something like this came up again.
Might there be any validity to that?
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Could just mean they are a BattleTech nerd rather than a Robotech nerd. Remember, the image itself is over 30 years old and depending on the age of the particular writer they might not even know of Robotech. While the old FASA case gets bandied about often the older Marauder art is more often seen as a reminder of what was lost and is still being sold second hand with TRO 3025 which, oddly enough, is easier to acquire and cheaper than trying to buy a copy of Tech Manual or Tactical Operations.
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I remember that. The reason the article says "Marauder" is because the original reporter tracked the piece to DeviantArt, where it was labelled as such.
But this has no bearing on the lawsuit, because a) that was a piece of fan art, not licensed nor approved by anyone involved, and b) because the defendants have already stopped using that specific visual design.
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Old but humorous
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/vce-authorities-apologise-for-phantom-robot-20121119-29lbl.html)
Poster fails to mention the winning exam submission that year. Summary follows.
BattleMech falls into dimensional time vortex caused by bizarre weather pattern created during terraforming operation. Pilot happens to have a fetish for the historical era, discovers truth, pieces together events. Too late, for he's fallen in love with a beautiful partisan freedom fighter.
He's informed by braggadocio villain that the place she will be in one weeks time is targeted for a terrorist act.
Pilot and slightly mad discredited inventor friend argue about the price of saving her life, since intervening will change history. On night Heroine dies, Pilot and inventor activate machine constructed out of Marauder parts to transport Pilot back to his own time.
Sometime later, Pilot visiting monument on Terra when Heroine known to have died. Wanders to gravesite, finds fresh flowers and envelope with his name on it from trust foundation with the name of the mad inventor. He's now rich beyond his wildest dreams, but they failed, history *was* changed, and no one will ever know what might have been.
Realizing this, he also realizes he could have saved her life, anyways. A vow is made, maybe he still can. The next time war is about to begin.
Oh, sorry, was that out loud?
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So I had a thought. Catalyst has actually already released art for the Wasp and Phoenix Hawk, which Harmony Gold doesn't bring up in their suit.
My conspiratorial mind wonders if Harmony Gold simply hasn't noticed these, or if they're saving them for another suit should this one fail.
(It's also interesting to me that the images they listed for Hairbrained Schemes are also used by Piranha, but Harmony Gold apparently doesn't care about their use in Mechwarrior Online).
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So I had a thought. Catalyst has actually already released art for the Wasp and Phoenix Hawk, which Harmony Gold doesn't bring up in their suit.
My conspiratorial mind wonders if Harmony Gold simply hasn't noticed these, or if they're saving them for another suit should this one fail.
(It's also interesting to me that the images they listed for Hairbrained Schemes are also used by Piranha, but Harmony Gold apparently doesn't care about their use in Mechwarrior Online).
Doesn't work like that, if they take this case to a jury and loose then precedent is made and that would be used to determine any future case.
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I would certainly hope so.
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I think they used the concept art as a means to drag HBS into the fray and claim breach of contract. Its the only obvious explanation considering the art they claimed as copyright infringement is laughable and shares nothing beyond the concept of warrior robots. The Locust doesn't even have arms...
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Now, I'm not perticularly versed in copywrite law, but if memory serves when that picture on the exam was last brought up, it was pointed out that the article did identify the mech as a BattleTech Marauder, and not an Officer Pod or anything else. One comentor sugested that that spoke to the fact that that image is one that is publicly accocated with the Marauder, and that it might be significant if something like this came up again.
Might there be any validity to that?
I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that. I was going to point that out humorously, but stopped because I was worried about accidentally shooting our side in the foot :(
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Right, but then the question is why.
In many regards, shared references would want to make me search for where that originated from: think of jazz improvisation and hunting down shared licks/riffs/phrases. Granted that is more of a "everyone live happily ever after" view, but that is at least how I feel.
The bigger one then is, what I think is the reality, what did HG produce using that image? Not much. I don't remember seeing the officer's pod too much in the cartoon. The sheer lack of effective follow-up by HG didn't really help either. I would classify it as a sort of neglect and BattleTech fans just filled it in. Remember that by the time that incident happened on that exam, the Marauder image was no longer an active part of the BattleTech universe.
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Keep in mind we live in a society where companies sue over the term 'space marine' (GW) and attempt to copyright a language (Paramount) Copyright Bots are also a thing.
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Keep in mind we live in a society where companies sue over the term 'space marine' (GW) and attempt to copyright a language (Paramount) Copyright Bots are also a thing.
If that's in reference to "Klingon", I can completely agree to their copyright.
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Doesn't work like that, if they take this case to a jury and loose then precedent is made and that would be used to determine any future case.
On that note, here's a big question. What extant case law would be similar enough to this case to be applicable, from other similar suits? What were those results?
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On that note, here's a big question. What extant case law would be similar enough to this case to be applicable, from other similar suits? What were those results?
Tons and tons and tons. Derivative works are among the most common copyright cases, after blatant violations like file sharing. When does a thing - song, story, visual image, etc. - stop being a copy of something else and start being a thing of its own? Ideas cannot be copyrighted, only their specific implementations, but you also can't just change the name and file off the serial numbers and pretend that it was yours all along.
Ultimately, if the parties involved can't work things out between themselves (the most common result), then a judge and jury will review evidence presented to them and make a ruling.
Keep in mind we live in a society where companies sue over the term 'space marine' (GW) and attempt to copyright a language (Paramount) Copyright Bots are also a thing.
Absolutely meaningless to this discussion, and skirting very close to Rule 4. In this case, HG feels that certain artwork is too close to images it has the rights to, and therefore is within their rights in the US to bring a lawsuit to settle the matter. This is the system working as intended. We can debate the merits of the case, but it would be highly improper to say that they shouldn't have been allowed to bring the suit in the first place.
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Sorry, the topic is becoming a little murky. I can delete/edit my commit or ask my mod to delete it.
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Tons and tons and tons. Derivative works are among the most common copyright cases, after blatant violations like file sharing. When does a thing - song, story, visual image, etc. - stop being a copy of something else and start being a thing of its own? Ideas cannot be copyrighted, only their specific implementations, but you also can't just change the name and file off the serial numbers and pretend that it was yours all along.
Ultimately, if the parties involved can't work things out between themselves (the most common result), then a judge and jury will review evidence presented to them and make a ruling.
Yeah, I'm mostly wondering "in the past, which way has a jury/judge/arbitration swung typically" but that's more a question direct to a professional. It seems the one who reviewed it on youtube says "there's too many things you have to have to have a humanoid warrior robot with guns on it" and, if I'm understanding him correctly, suggests that the only real thing that can be copyrighted isn't so much the design of the thing but the explicit art from Macross - namely, what's cited as owned by HG directly. Those images USED to be used in Battletech products (I remember them in the box set rulebook, 2nd ed? and some sourcebooks) but they're very clearly not being used now. I could be misunderstanding, but it could be that the only true copyright HG has is the Macross drawings and anything they produce themselves; anything not using that express artwork is bueno.
I cannot emphasize that there's some gigantic fontsize=3025 ifs in there, based on a few admittedly confusing to me statements from a lawyer. So I won't, and I'll just let that stand.
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Remember the ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame was considered to be different enough from the MadCat that it was not Infringement.
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Remember the ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame was considered to be different enough from the MadCat that it was not Infringement.
Can that be used as precedent, or does copyright law go case by case?
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Can that be used as precedent, or does copyright law go case by case?
Case by case, but both sides are free to introduce any evidence that they feel supports their positions.
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Case by case, but both sides are free to introduce any evidence that they feel supports their positions.
It may be a question nobody here can answer, but would they even be ALLOWED to enter that into evidence (and if they did, it sounds to a non-lawyer like me to be pretty damning against HG's case)? We now know that HG imposed essentially a gag order on Jordan in the 1995 settlement (one that I can't see how any sane judge would have allowed) forbidding him to IIRC even mention the Japanese (Big West/Studio Nue v. Tatsunoko Pro) Macross rights case or help others in getting information on it. What other gags could HG have imposed in 1995 that we don't know about?
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The Studio Nue case wouldn't be that hard to find as much as we talk about and how easy it is to find on the net when even looking into the history of BattleTech and Robotech.
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Remember the ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame was considered to be different enough from the MadCat that it was not Infringement.
and that one was basically a frakenmech of a Timberwolf torso, upper arms, and missile pods with ED-209 legs;
(http://toyboxdx.com/phorum/file.php?3,file=10649)
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What I find to be particularly interesting is HG's claim that the new Shadow Hawk is substantially similar to the "Destroid Spartan".
The new Shadow Hawk is, however, in fact quite similar to the old Shadow Hawk. Which is the titular mecha from "Fang of the Sun Dougram".
Dougram precedes Macross by about a year. So in essence, HG have either claimed that the Shadow Hawk is derivative of something that did not exist at the time it was designed, or that "their" Destroid Spartan is in fact derivative of Dougram and it is HG themselves who are infringing here.
I don't know whether this kind of patently preposterous argument by HG has any potential to damage their case... but I can only hope for a lot.
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Since the lawsuit would be decided point-by-point, no, it does not hurt their case.
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But it would hurt that particular claim. Which, after the other two claims against HBS are seen as baseless would get HBS and probably Weisman dropped as defendents. At least that is how I see it.
I truly believe HG went after HBS and Weisman to try and push the old FASA settlement as hard as possible and point all fingers for the classics/PGI unseen as his brainchild.
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What I find to be particularly interesting is HG's claim that the new Shadow Hawk is substantially similar to the "Destroid Spartan".
The new Shadow Hawk is, however, in fact quite similar to the old Shadow Hawk. Which is the titular mecha from "Fang of the Sun Dougram".
Dougram precedes Macross by about a year. So in essence, HG have either claimed that the Shadow Hawk is derivative of something that did not exist at the time it was designed, or that "their" Destroid Spartan is in fact derivative of Dougram and it is HG themselves who are infringing here.
I don't know whether this kind of patently preposterous argument by HG has any potential to damage their case... but I can only hope for a lot.
Interesting point... It'd be a good way to show that you can't copyright the aspects that make a certain humanoid mecha a humanoid, as they really do have to have two legs, and two arms, ect.
It probably won't have any serious effect on their case, but a man can hope...
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I do wonder if the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, et al, were just place holders because HG expected HBS to release art for them and with the bringing of the suit HBS didnt? (Does that make any sense?)
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I won't want to guess. We may have year or more until we find out what will accrue from it.
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Anyone heard anything more on why Harmony Gold has filed suit against Tatsunoko now?
Because its... confusing me.
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They did what? ???
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https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-23006746.htm
Filings against Tatsunoko....
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I haven't heard of that either.
In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.
If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.
I'll have to look for a better source on that.
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I haven't heard of that either.
In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.
If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.
I'll have to look for a better source on that.
Nah, last time this came up... IIRC, a US court outright went "Japanese court doesn't have ability to tell Harmony Gold it doesn't have the rights." or "We don't recognise the authority of Japanese court." Or some such.
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technically tatsunoko did have the rights. the court ruled that they had the rights to distribute only. but not to license out art, derivatives, etc. they gave HG full control, and then it turned out they didn't have full control to offer.
i suspect that if HG is filing against their own liscenser it is to get the legal limbo the international rights to SDF:macross are in sorted out.
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I haven't heard of that either.
Me neither. This is interesting and sounds like a seismic shift in the whole dynamic.
In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.
:o Again, a game-changer.
If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.
I tend to doubt it -- I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Big West has an absolute hate for HG due to HG's shenanigans that kept most of Macross off of the American market during the great Anime boom of the '90s and 2000s.
technically tatsunoko did have the rights. the court ruled that they had the rights to distribute only. but not to license out art, derivatives, etc. they gave HG full control, and then it turned out they didn't have full control to offer.
i suspect that if HG is filing against their own liscenser it is to get the legal limbo the international rights to SDF:macross are in sorted out.
That seems like a dangerous game, though. Since Tatsunoko is the licensor, what's to keep them from pulling the licenses for all three shows?
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Sorry for asking but who/what is Tatsunoko and what do they do?
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Tatsunoko Productions is one of the creators and developers behind the original Macross anime series that Robotech was partially created from.
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Ugh...HG needs to die in a litigational fire.
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To top it off some people are claiming that HG lost the rights to the other two shows as well but I can't find anything about it.. Too much rumor and not enough references.
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they still have the rights to those. though only Genesis Climber MOSPEADA had anything beyond the anime to speak of in japan. Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross was basically a failed project in japan, and over here as part of robotech, it has been largely ignored by HG despite it being the middle segment and actually having the most setting building and important plot moments.
personally i suspect the lack of any real attempt to merchandise southern cross comes from the visual style, which is so different than the other two portions. SDC:southern cross started as a 'scifi Sengoku' drama, before getting completely rewritten into yet another "aliens invade" mecha series. but they kept the scifi samurai armor even as they dumped everything else. and their mecha designs are either not very memorable (most of the background stuff) or incredibly complex in transformation (the hovertanks and the transforming helicopter-jet.)
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Tatsunoko Productions is one of the creators and developers behind the original Macross anime series that Robotech was partially created from.
Specifically Tatsunoko was brought on board halfway through production/airing of Macross because the original producer, Big West, ran out of money. Because of the nature of this deal, likely coupled with the fact that they didn't know how big Macross would end up being, who actually owned what was not spelled out in the agreement and it was during this time when who owned what was unclear that Tatsunoko signed their deal with HG. Things went to the courts in Japan and the courts ruled that some (most?) of what Tatsunoko sold to HG they didn't own, specifically for Macross they only owned the international distribution rights. This would, in theory, give HG the right to sue Tatsunoko for bad faith dealings.
I'm not too sure on the rights situation for Southern Cross, that was another Big West/Tatsunoko co-production.
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Holy shit! This could be HUGE. God, I want to know what that's all about, but the Central District of California's web procedures are stuck right in the mid-90's.
So I've emailed Leonard French. Hey, there is no shame in turning to an expert. Sunday is his usual livestream day, but I think he's taking this week off. August, especially mid to late in the month, is when judges are most likely are to take their vacations, so many lawyers do the same.
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It does sort of point towards the Not-Named Corporation trying to clear the decks for the movie to go into production and release without any legal grey areas about the IP.
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Yeah it would be nice to know what is up with HG and Tatsunoko.
On the other hand, I don't recall if he ever mentioned the response from PGI/HBS about the status of HGs actual rights as addressed in the amended filing. Don't think he did say anything but that is something many are wondering about. More or less how does the ruling against Tatsunoko in Japan affect whatever contract HG had with them, IF it has any bearing on this case...
It does sort of point towards the Not-Named Corporation trying to clear the decks for the movie to go into production and release without any legal grey areas about the IP.
Based on what was posted about the movie license when WB held it, WB had to obtain the movie rights from one company and the character rights (no mention on the visuals) from another company.
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Holy shit! This could be HUGE. God, I want to know what that's all about, but the Central District of California's web procedures are stuck right in the mid-90's.
So I've emailed Leonard French. Hey, there is no shame in turning to an expert. Sunday is his usual livestream day, but I think he's taking this week off. August, especially mid to late in the month, is when judges are most likely are to take their vacations, so many lawyers do the same.
Honestly? I'd bet serious money this sudden push is pressure from Sony to demonstrate that they have complete rights and ownership to all of Robotech, in every format, and that there can't be any legal challenges. Remember the nightmare between Warner and Fox once Watchmen had been made and just before its release, that pushed it back a few months IIRC? Considering the "seven ways to sunday" that the macross IP has gone, I daresay Sony's got the right idea to either put all the rights in one organized basket - or else walk.
personally i suspect the lack of any real attempt to merchandise southern cross comes from the visual style, which is so different than the other two portions. SDC:southern cross started as a 'scifi Sengoku' drama, before getting completely rewritten into yet another "aliens invade" mecha series. but they kept the scifi samurai armor even as they dumped everything else. and their mecha designs are either not very memorable (most of the background stuff) or incredibly complex in transformation (the hovertanks and the transforming helicopter-jet.)
Southern Cross was also relatively unique - it was actually humanity invading another species' homeworld, and said species (the Zor) returning to reclaim it. It was re-edited by Macek, up to and including altering the cels to show only one star for the system, so that it was here on earth. Not a popular choice for Japan, and the ending...suffered due to cancellation, budget cuts, and quite likely literally trying to finish producing the anime before the doors were locked on the studio that night...
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So read this (http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/) page in a little more detail and... well, not entirely sure. I *think* it might be old copyright filings by HG but it doesn't specify exactly WHAT they are..
Macross.
Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VAu000534107 / 2002-05-17
Title: Macross.
Description: Drawings.
Copyright Claimant: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue & Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
Date of Creation: 1982
Authorship on Application: artwork: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue, employer for hire.
Names: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue
Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
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Just saw this update and... holy crap!
Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?
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So read this (http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/) page in a little more detail and... well, not entirely sure. I *think* it might be old copyright filings by HG but it doesn't specify exactly WHAT they are..
That's old information. You can ignore it for now.
Just saw this update and... holy crap!
Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?
They might feel they have a real case here. Without knowing what they're claiming, I couldn't say. But in general, licensees don't sue IP owners unless something has gone very wrong. If you misstep, your license will likely go away.
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Just saw this update and... holy crap!
Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?
So I assume this is a good thing...right? I'm a bit lost with all thats going on.
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So I assume this is a good thing...right? I'm a bit lost with all thats going on.
It's a thing. We do not know if it is good or not.
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Can one of the experts here tell me how they judge these things? I watched the video and he kept mentioning it going to jury....
And I couldn't helping thinking of twelve of my mom being shown pictures of big stompy robots and her thinking; "they all look the same to me".
I'm terrible for this, because I taught AFV recognition for years and I don't even think most of the Russian T-Series look alike. So I know from teaching people like my mom, the normal people don't process visual information on combat vehicles the same way I do.
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That's exactly the point. During the trial, both sides will attempt to show how the mecha are similar or different. You want average Joes and Janes, because everyone knows that experts can spot differences, but it's the general public you're concerned with.
And don't sell your mom short. My mom can recognize an Abrams vs. a Challenger 2.
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I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?
They have submitted a design that was originally made a year before the design it is allegedly "derivative" of as evidence.
Judge for yourself.
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And I couldn't helping thinking of twelve of my mom being shown pictures of big stompy robots and her thinking; "they all look the same to me".
Yeah, but if it does turn out that alls stompy robots look alike to the jury, the smart move is to show the jury some stompy robots that are definitely not derived from HG's Macross designs (because they predate them, as I already mentioned for one example) and then arrive at the obvious conclusion that "being a stompy robot" is not something HG can have any rights to, and let that be the end of it.
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So someone looked into the Tatsunoko arbitration and pulled out this. Really need a real lawyer to pull it all and explain it but this little bit is interesting and *looks* unrelated.
Okay, thanks for the link to the new case. I did some digging, and it was a largely useless case (it's asking a court to confirm and arbitration) but one of the exhibits was worth the money.
As per Exhibit 1 (Redacted document - Arbitration Award) in 2:17-cv-06034 Harmony Gold, USA, Inc. v. Tatsunoko Production Co., Ltd.
Award 2a: HG's license to make derivative works expires 14MAR2021. All rights and sublicenses revert to the company that bought the company that bought Tatsunoko at that time.
2c: HG does not have all rights in perpetuity throughout the universe (the listed terminology).
2d: They can negotiate for a new license, of course.
Let it be known: This is not part of the other case, it is a matter of court record, and I am not an attorney. These are my understandings based on my knowledge. The citations are provided in case an attorney wishes to fact-check.
It explains the sudden rush, they have four years to milk the license for all its worth before terms change. Also, this was a million-dollar arbitration on their part.
I'd also like to suggest people read the Wikipedia article on Harmony Gold USA.
Glad someone has a pacer account. ColBosch, your thoughts?
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Now that is interesting.
I don't know how much it'd impact HG vs PGI,HBS, and IMR/CGL's case but that HG will have their license expire in a few years could have some interesting implications and I'm not sure they could get a new license.
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pretty sure they'd have to negotiate with big west AND tatsunoko to renew.. since Tatsunoko can only give the show footage, and big west controls everything else HG hasto have for the macross part of robotech. since BW loathes HG and isn't on good terms with tatsunoko either... yeah, that'll be entertaining.
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[quote auth2or=pheonixstorm link=topic=58142.msg1344640#msg1344640 date=1503176274]
So someone looked into the Tatsunoko arbitration and pulled out this. Really need a real lawyer to pull it all and explain it but this little bit is interesting and *looks* unrelated.
Glad someone has a pacer account. ColBosch, your thoughts?
[/quote]
PM the link if I get so free time I will take a look, not a IP lawyer but a lawyer so I will see if I can make heads or tails of it.
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I'm stumped. The only thing I can think of is that HG is really confident that the movie is going to happen - and, to be honest, with Pacific Rim 2 coming out, now is a good time to make a competing giant robot movie - and they want to be sure that they are fully protected. Even if they lose the Macross footage and trademarks, residuals from a successful film and its attendant merchandising could be worth tens of millions, and even more if the film mutates into a franchise.
This does further the theory that they are suing the BattleTech IPs to secure their own position. They will have to redesign the mecha for the movie, and getting the similar BattleTech designs out of the way means PGI/IMR can't go after them later.
Which is Joker-level thinking, I'll admit, but it makes sense.
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ColBosch, ask your mom is she'd consider army reserves, we need more people who can embarrass the 18 year olds.
I really doubt the movie will go ahead though. Pacific Rim II is well ahead in production by now and best of my knowledge this Robotech Movie hasn't even started and have they not talked about something like that for years?
I mean, I'm just so fatigued by crap like this. Leaving out Ghostbusters completely, there has been talk of Gargoyles and Reboot movies for years too; much less complicated IPs to realize and wrangle legally. All we've ever seen of either of those IPs in a moving picture format has been this gawdawful live-action Reboot project. To go from a standing start to something that could compete with Pacific Rim and would have to exist alongside Transformers, without borrowing too much from that style, either, would be difficult to say the least.
That said; I can see why this lawsuit would be seen as necessary groundwork and frankly, I think we would have seen such a move regardless of what TPTB did with the IP.
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Geeze, their license expires in 2021? It's hard to see what suing Tatsunoko will do. It isn't as though HG wins and the judge grants them a license in perpetuity out of fiat. And then you have to consider that once the movie has a script and goes into pre-production and with special features and CGI, suddenly 3 1/2 years isn't so long.
Maybe they are suing to get money back for buying an invalid license? Which means...?
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Did the suit against Tatsunoko really only start this month?
If so, then could it be triggered by something discovered during the current BT vs HG case?
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That would be hilarious in a way since one of the defenses being mounted claims that Harmony Gold doesn't actually have the rights that they claim. At least if I understand the defense correctly.
We'll have to see what the case versus Tatsunoko is about though before we start getting too excited.
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Here's my question though: why do a RoboTech movie in the first place?
Granted, I've never seen RT or Macross or any of the other anime involved. But everyone that I've ever talked to about it is just as knowledgeable about them as they are of RoboTech. So knowing all the, uncertainty, surrounding RT, why wouldn't Sony just go straight to the Japanese Studios to do a live action version of Macross?
EDIT: To be a little more clear, I meant why bother with messing with HG and RT when the target audience seems to be just as knowledgeable about the original animes RT is based on.
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That would be hilarious in a way since one of the defenses being mounted claims that Harmony Gold doesn't actually have the rights that they claim. At least if I understand the defense correctly.
We'll have to see what the case versus Tatsunoko is about though before we start getting too excited.
and then you think what the hell is the point of suing the Battletech-associated companies first? If there isn't a settlement, the court date is mid-September. I don't know how long a court fight like that could take, but say one to three months. Then HG is fighting over a license that doesn't pull in much money AND they will likely have to redesign all the mech anyway for a movie... And they have a little over two years left before their license goes poof.
It is just looking more and more baffling. The old adage cui bono seems to fall apart because it just looks like HG is bleeding themselves.
Does the Battletech suit matter if the Tatsunoko suit ends earlier?
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Because Harmony Gold does have the rights to distribute Macross(until proven they don't or their license expires). They chose to re-brand it as Robotech.
It is actually pretty common for foreign shows to be re-branded and the subsequent copyrights/trademarks filled on said re-branding hold up even with someone trying to go around them with the original material.
So even trying to do a Macross movie instead would still see Harmony Gold being involved.
and then you think what the hell is the point of suing the Battletech-associated companies first? If there isn't a settlement, the court date is mid-September. I don't know how long a court fight like that could take, but say one to three months. Then HG is fighting over a license that doesn't pull in much money AND they will likely have to redesign all the mech anyway for a movie... And they have a little over two years left before their license goes poof.
It is just looking more and more baffling. The old adage cui bono seems to fall apart because it just looks like HG is bleeding themselves.
Does the Battletech suit matter if the Tatsunoko suit ends earlier?
It largely depends on information we as yet do not have access to.
My current and probably wrong theory is that something came out in discovery that Harmony Gold didn't entirely expect and now they have to go to court with Tatsunoko to get it resolved. It would be a fairly simple matter to put the case against PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL on hold until it is resolved if that is the case.
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Here's my question though: why do a RoboTech movie in the first place?
Granted, I've never seen RT or Macross or any of the other anime involved. But everyone that I've ever talked to about it is just as knowledgeable about them as they are of RoboTech. So knowing all the, uncertainty, surrounding RT, why wouldn't Sony just go straight to the Japanese Studios to do a live action version of Macross?
HG's strategy here is to build mainstream US brand awareness of RT. Basically they want a bigger fanbase (More people being stuff) and think that a live action film is the best way to build that base.
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HG's strategy here is to build mainstream US brand awareness of RT. Basically they want a bigger fanbase (More people being stuff) and think that a live action film is the best way to build that base.
I can understand that. Then again, they've done exactly what with it over the past 20 years?
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Here's my question though: why do a RoboTech movie in the first place?
Great question, Robotech was once hugely popular but these days... not so much. I think Sony sees a huge payday in the Asian market but that begs the question answered below.
Granted, I've never seen RT or Macross or any of the other anime involved. But everyone that I've ever talked to about it is just as knowledgeable about them as they are of RoboTech. So knowing all the, uncertainty, surrounding RT, why wouldn't Sony just go straight to the Japanese Studios to do a live action version of Macross?
So, to answer this question you have to understand a few things. First, Harmony Gold licensed three shows to create Robotech. Macross, Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber. The obtained the right to create and distribute Robotech as a derivative work from Tatsunoko for the western market. The actual rights on what they have is rather murky though as HG has made trademark claims on the title Macross here in the US and a few countries in Europe as well.
Now as for the movie. Sony would have a better time just acquiring a license for Macross from Big West and Studio Nue but they could not show such a movie in the US and possibly parts of Europe. The same can be said of Robotech. Sony most likely can not show said movie in Japan as well as parts of Asia due to the current mess the license is in. From what has been posted on the internet when Warner Brothers had the movie license they had to license the charater designs from a 3rd party because HG does not own those rights.
It is questionable that they even own the rights to the artwork used for the anime as well which leads us back to the current lawsuit that HBS, PGI, and CGL are involved in.
That is the short short version. The LONG version starts in the mid 90's when HG sued FASA. But that you can look up on your own #P
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You know, I wonder if the Robotech Tactics crowd has heard that HG only has the rights until 2021...
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You know, I wonder if the Robotech Tactics crowd has heard that HG only has the rights until 2021...
I wonder if the Robotech Tactics crowd has heard anything in the last year or so. ;D
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I am surprised that bunch hasn't sued yet lol
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I can understand that. Then again, they've done exactly what with it over the past 20 years?
You're assuming that HG has the movie rights; they haven't done anything with a film because they don't own it. Those were sold off long ago, just like how Topps doesn't own the video-game rights to Battletech. Originally, Warner Brothers had it (how they got it, I'm not sure, I expect straight purchase from HG) but those rights expired, and instead of reverting to HG's ownership Sony ended up with them.
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/robotech-movie-sony-tv-series-anime-1201460191/
Granted, it's two years old, but note the attitude of the Sony people towards a Robotech film. They are excited and hopeful, looking to make such a thing. Clearly it's at least had some fairly recent high priority within Sony.
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You're assuming that HG has the movie rights; they haven't done anything with a film because they don't own it. Those were sold off long ago, just like how Topps doesn't own the video-game rights to Battletech. Originally, Warner Brothers had it (how they got it, I'm not sure, I expect straight purchase from HG) but those rights expired, and instead of reverting to HG's ownership Sony ended up with them.
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/robotech-movie-sony-tv-series-anime-1201460191/
Granted, it's two years old, but note the attitude of the Sony people towards a Robotech film. They are excited and hopeful, looking to make such a thing. Clearly it's at least had some fairly recent high priority within Sony.
Which may open a whole new line of speculation -- given the revelations above, Sony may have started sweating HG to get to the bottom of what HG actually had the legal right to sell to them. HG may be in CYA mode to avert the legal wrath of Sony.
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You're assuming that HG has the movie rights; they haven't done anything with a film because they don't own it. Those were sold off long ago, just like how Topps doesn't own the video-game rights to Battletech. Originally, Warner Brothers had it (how they got it, I'm not sure, I expect straight purchase from HG) but those rights expired, and instead of reverting to HG's ownership Sony ended up with them.
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/robotech-movie-sony-tv-series-anime-1201460191/
Granted, it's two years old, but note the attitude of the Sony people towards a Robotech film. They are excited and hopeful, looking to make such a thing. Clearly it's at least had some fairly recent high priority within Sony.
Actually...I was talking about the IP as a whole. The RT: Tactics game was the first thing they done in a while wasn't it?
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actually HG has had a fairly steady string of products. they just never really made big waves until RTT. comics and toys and efforts to get new spinoffs made don't really attract big notice.
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I don't know that I'd say a 'steady stream.' There was the abysmal Shadow Chronicles back in 07, and then a mangled 'Love Live Alive' that was a condensed version of New Generation/Genesis Climber, with about 5 minutes of 'all new' footage added in. Which was jarring in its differences. That was back in 2013. Then there was the failed Kickstarter for Robotech Academy. And Robotech Tactics was more Palladium than Harmony Gold.
So not much there really.
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Actually...I was talking about the IP as a whole. The RT: Tactics game was the first thing they done in a while wasn't it?
Harmony Gold didn't do Robotech:Tactics. Palladium Books did. I'm fairly certain Harmony Gold's involvement amounted to cashing Palladium's checks.
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I don't know that I'd say a 'steady stream.' There was the abysmal Shadow Chronicles back in 07, and then a mangled 'Love Live Alive' that was a condensed version of New Generation/Genesis Climber, with about 5 minutes of 'all new' footage added in. Which was jarring in its differences. That was back in 2013. Then there was the failed Kickstarter for Robotech Academy. And Robotech Tactics was more Palladium than Harmony Gold.
So not much there really.
and the "from the stars" comic series. and the Love and war comic series. and the Invasion comic Series. and the "prelude to shadow chronicles" comic series. and the "robotech/Voltron" comic series. and a number of toys and rereleases of older music collections and novels. and that isn't bringing in the affiliated companies like palladium books with the 2nd edition robotech RPG. (which has seen more public progress than RTT has)
they have had stuff coming out regular. just not new films or shows,. but if we judge all franchises by that, even stuff like battlestar galactica and star wars would be "pretty much dead"
just because you haven't bothered to actually follow their releases does not mean said releases don;t exist.
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Harmony Gold didn't do Robotech:Tactics. Palladium Books did. I'm fairly certain Harmony Gold's involvement amounted to cashing Palladium's checks.
If there were that many checks to cash
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Well, its nice to find the version of this thread on another forum. Oh, pardon me, I forgot to introduce myself. I am Requiemking, and I come here from the MWO fanbase seeking any new info relevant to the case. I'm trying to link the various different threads together, and any new info is appreciated. If you would like to review our collective data and opinions on the case, then I would kindly direct you here: https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/255291-harmony-gold-v-weisman-pgi/ (https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/255291-harmony-gold-v-weisman-pgi/).
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I have been keeping up with all three threads on the "other" battletechs sites and it is pretty much the same between all of them. Might want to remove the link though, not sure if the mods will be annoyed by it.
Beyond the youtube video by everyones favorite lawyer nothing on the forums (any of them really) is nothing more than idle speculation by the fans of the physical and digital realms. It seems as long as we don't get too volcal or go all torches and pitchforks against HG we are left to our whining and gentle name calling of the offending pond scum company even the Robotech fans don't care for. Especially the Macross fans who can be even worse from what I have read.
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Still, not everyone goes out of their way to check other sites(some people I know of are quite salty about MWO in general, particularly with regards to Light mechs), and besides, what if someone notices something on one thread that people on the others haven't clued into?
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I don't know that I'd say a 'steady stream.' There was the abysmal Shadow Chronicles back in 07, and then a mangled 'Love Live Alive' that was a condensed version of New Generation/Genesis Climber, with about 5 minutes of 'all new' footage added in. Which was jarring in its differences. That was back in 2013. Then there was the failed Kickstarter for Robotech Academy. And Robotech Tactics was more Palladium than Harmony Gold.
So not much there really.
and most of it was poorly received. And the fact that the Kickstarter failed, when HG had enough money to float it themselves says several things.
1. the fan base isn't there. The energized group of fans who help drive your product are not there. Not only that, but anyone looking into it will realize that a large part of the fandom such a movie would appeal to normally will not only not like it, but will probably do everything they can to make it fail.
2. HG didn't have enough confidence in thier own IP to put any money into it. That really says it all.
Sony is acting confident and happy, just like Warner Brothers did, because press releases are cheap and signing directors is cheap. Call me when they start filming. Not only that, but when you see the stills related to most of these still-born attempts, you see HG's real problem.
Everyone kicks up a picture of MACROSS. The one property HG *cannot use*. They had the rights to the film they received, and the merchandising. Thats' why everything we've seen since on TV has been focused on later series--which nobody is interested in. That's going to put a crimp in the show.
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and the "from the stars" comic series. and the Love and war comic series. and the Invasion comic Series. and the "prelude to shadow chronicles" comic series. and the "robotech/Voltron" comic series. and a number of toys and rereleases of older music collections and novels. and that isn't bringing in the affiliated companies like palladium books with the 2nd edition robotech RPG. (which has seen more public progress than RTT has)
they have had stuff coming out regular. just not new films or shows,. but if we judge all franchises by that, even stuff like battlestar galactica and star wars would be "pretty much dead"
just because you haven't bothered to actually follow their releases does not mean said releases don;t exist.
I'm aware of them, thank you very much.
Those comic 'series' were all limited run retreads and rehashes that provide nothing new. They are poor reworkings of the older comic series, all ending by 2010. 2013 saw the Robotech-Voltron series, glorified fan fiction, until the new one this year, titled simply 'Robotech' which, yet again, retells the story of the series, but condensed and poorly done. Basically, since 1997, when Antarctic Press took over, the comics have been a jumble of fan service mini-series.
The Second Edition RPG saw a whopping two new books, much of which was just a tweaked version of now non-canon stuff.
The old McKinney novels and the pre-2007 series, in particular the Eternity/Academy run of the Sentinels, have all been tossed out the window as non-canon. The music and toys are re re re re releases. HG is milking it for all it's worth, but playing on nostalgia. New is not something they do.
And actually, I would call Galactica a dead franchise, but one with a much broader fan base.
and most of it was poorly received. And the fact that the Kickstarter failed, when HG had enough money to float it themselves says several things.
1. the fan base isn't there. The energized group of fans who help drive your product are not there. Not only that, but anyone looking into it will realize that a large part of the fandom such a movie would appeal to normally will not only not like it, but will probably do everything they can to make it fail.
2. HG didn't have enough confidence in thier own IP to put any money into it. That really says it all.
Sony is acting confident and happy, just like Warner Brothers did, because press releases are cheap and signing directors is cheap. Call me when they start filming. Not only that, but when you see the stills related to most of these still-born attempts, you see HG's real problem.
Everyone kicks up a picture of MACROSS. The one property HG *cannot use*. They had the rights to the film they received, and the merchandising. Thats' why everything we've seen since on TV has been focused on later series--which nobody is interested in. That's going to put a crimp in the show.
Nailed it.
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I have been quietly following this from the sidelines (well, kind of closer than that, the lawsuit is filed in the same county I live in...), but something just occurred to me as I was reading one of two articles posted in one of the MWO forum threads (http://www.animeherald.com/2013/07/24/harmony-gold-sues-hasbro-over-comic-con-toys/)
HG went after Hasbro back in 2013 over alleged infringement of the Robotech VF-1 Valkyrie - "the" face of that series, basically. They lost. They lost hard.
What the author in that article points out is that both those designs are about 99% Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Here is where it gets interesting.
I was a 3D artist on a WWII flight simulator back in 2004. We were focusing on the Pacific theater and the carrier war, where basically anything flying on the American side was designed and built by Grumman Aircraft. We included the F4F Wildcat, the F6F Hellcat, a TBF Avenger, and several carriers built at Newport News shipyards (which was government owned at the time but is now owned by Grumman), and... we got sued by Grumman. We got sued so hard that the game almost never came out.
After 30+ years of the anime being out there, I am sitting here wondering if Grumman really does not know that Robotech is using their F-14 as (partially) the face of the franchise. Because I guarantee you, if they did know, Harmony Gold would have been hit with a lawsuit and restraining order the likes of which they have never seen before. We might loathe HG for their lawsuits and their deep warchest and the bully tactics, but they are bugs in the mud compared to an international defense and aerospace megacorporation. Grumman might literally own them outright just to sit on distribution by the time it is all over.
There is a Northrop-Grumman office in Seattle, to work directly with the Navy and the carriers stationed here in Puget Sound. It also has a legal branch office which goes after people doing... basically what Harmony Gold is trying to do right now. How do I know this? I got a highly unpleasant phone call from them once. I was building a Northrop P-61 for the sim, and Northrop and Grumman are now only separated by a hyphen in their name.
Harmony Gold is playing with fire here bringing the case up at all. If Northrop-Grumman catches wind of this... oh man.
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They would have to go after Big West, and Studio Nue for that. I'm pretty sure there they are aware, as it has been pointed out that the series has been out for 30+ years.
I have been quietly following this from the sidelines (well, kind of closer than that, the lawsuit is filed in the same county I live in...), but something just occurred to me as I was reading one of two articles posted in one of the MWO forum threads (http://www.animeherald.com/2013/07/24/harmony-gold-sues-hasbro-over-comic-con-toys/)
HG went after Hasbro back in 2013 over alleged infringement of the Robotech VF-1 Valkyrie - "the" face of that series, basically. They lost. They lost hard.
What the author in that article points out is that both those designs are about 99% Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Here is where it gets interesting.
I was a 3D artist on a WWII flight simulator back in 2004. We were focusing on the Pacific theater and the carrier war, where basically anything flying on the American side was designed and built by Grumman Aircraft. We included the F4F Wildcat, the F6F Hellcat, a TBF Avenger, and several carriers built at Newport News shipyards (which was government owned at the time but is now owned by Grumman), and... we got sued by Grumman. We got sued so hard that the game almost never came out.
After 30+ years of the anime being out there, I am sitting here wondering if Grumman really does not know that Robotech is using their F-14 as (partially) the face of the franchise. Because I guarantee you, if they did know, Harmony Gold would have been hit with a lawsuit and restraining order the likes of which they have never seen before. We might loathe HG for their lawsuits and their deep warchest and the bully tactics, but they are bugs in the mud compared to an international defense and aerospace megacorporation. Grumman might literally own them outright just to sit on distribution by the time it is all over.
There is a Northrop-Grumman office in Seattle, to work directly with the Navy and the carriers stationed here in Puget Sound. It also has a legal branch office which goes after people doing... basically what Harmony Gold is trying to do right now. How do I know this? I got a highly unpleasant phone call from them once. I was building a Northrop P-61 for the sim, and Northrop and Grumman are now only separated by a hyphen in their name.
Harmony Gold is playing with fire here bringing the case up at all. If Northrop-Grumman catches wind of this... oh man.
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What Luciora said.
Though this discussion popped up elsewhere about those designs and copyright of the design itself and the use of said designs EVERYWHERE. The F-14 can be seen in a lot of movies, tv, comics, games, etc. Same with the F-15, F-18, F-4, etc etc.
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HG went after Hasbro back in 2013 over alleged infringement of the Robotech VF-1 Valkyrie - "the" face of that series, basically. They lost. They lost hard.
They did not "lose hard." This was covered in this thread earlier. They pulled a typical HG and settled out of court. The "dismissal with prejudice" ruling is typical when the two parties come to an agreement.
As for the visual likeness of the Valkyrie being based on the F-14, it's not an issue here. Besides, if it was ruled that the Valkyrie was too similar to the F-14, what does that mean for the images HG is suing PGI/HBS/IMR over?
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I think something people don't know about HG is that, apparently, they're actually a real estate company that, for some reason, sidelines in anime imports/media whatever. This means that development projects for RT, despite being their biggest media franchise, are probably not top pirority. Of course their Wikipedia page has a section on current media troubles that suggests they are involved in money laundering, so...
What Luciora said.
Though this discussion popped up elsewhere about those designs and copyright of the design itself and the use of said designs EVERYWHERE. The F-14 can be seen in a lot of movies, tv, comics, games, etc. Same with the F-15, F-18, F-4, etc etc.
There's a difference between taking video of something that exists in the world and drawing an image of it as far as copyright is concerned, otherwise to take a photo or shoot video for commercial use would require consent of the people who made everything in shot. Also copyright works a bit differently in Japan.
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What the author in that article points out is that both those designs are about 99% Grumman F-14 Tomcat.
I doubt very, very much that this was an opinion held by anyone involved in the actual case, much less one which would be accepted by any court.
The VF-1 is quite obviously not "99% Grumman F-14 Tomcat" in its "fighter" form. Not even close. The cockpit size and position, the additional intakes, the shape of the nose, the general geometry of the fuselage, the size and shape of the engines, the fact that the VF-1 does not have a tailplane, the ginormous laser cannon underneath the VF-1's fuselage and several other more minor differences should make that clear. They are only similar insofar as they are both twin-engined, variable-geometry jet fighters and have twin vertical tailfins. I very much doubt that the combination of these two traits (which are separately found in many other jet fighters) alone makes for a copyrighteable design pattern on Grumman's part. There's a world of difference to your case, in which you accurately copied the exact shape of Grumman-designed aircraft.
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The VF-1 also has a square, instead of round, thrust assembly in some scenes.
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But it would hurt that particular claim. Which, after the other two claims against HBS are seen as baseless would get HBS and probably Weisman dropped as defendents. At least that is how I see it.
I truly believe HG went after HBS and Weisman to try and push the old FASA settlement as hard as possible and point all fingers for the classics/PGI unseen as his brainchild.
Isn't it also the case that they need to go after HBS/Weisman in order to drag the case against PGI to a US court in the first place (PGI being Canadian, but acting as a licensor to HBS)? I figured that's why they included the preposterous allegations of infringement wrt to the Atlas, Locust and Shadow Hawk to begin with.
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I was a 3D artist on a WWII flight simulator back in 2004. We were focusing on the Pacific theater and the carrier war, where basically anything flying on the American side was designed and built by Grumman Aircraft. We included the F4F Wildcat, the F6F Hellcat, a TBF Avenger, and several carriers built at Newport News shipyards (which was government owned at the time but is now owned by Grumman), and... we got sued by Grumman. We got sued so hard that the game almost never came out.
Let me guess, Pacific Fighters by 1C. :(
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The Second Edition RPG saw a whopping two new books, much of which was just a tweaked version of now non-canon stuff.
The old McKinney novels and the pre-2007 series, in particular the Eternity/Academy run of the Sentinels, have all been tossed out the window as non-canon. The music and toys are re re re re releases. HG is milking it for all it's worth, but playing on nostalgia. New is not something they do.
It was more like five or six RPG books (I was following the releases for Reasons), but yeah, it was still not that much. And yes, that includes a couple of vapourware products that never saw the light of day.
And don't ever get me started on the behind the scenes BS on the Antarctic Press Robotech comics...
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I have been quietly following this from the sidelines (well, kind of closer than that, the lawsuit is filed in the same county I live in...), but something just occurred to me as I was reading one of two articles posted in one of the MWO forum threads (http://www.animeherald.com/2013/07/24/harmony-gold-sues-hasbro-over-comic-con-toys/)
HG went after Hasbro back in 2013 over alleged infringement of the Robotech VF-1 Valkyrie - "the" face of that series, basically. They lost. They lost hard.
What the author in that article points out is that both those designs are about 99% Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Here is where it gets interesting.
I was a 3D artist on a WWII flight simulator back in 2004. We were focusing on the Pacific theater and the carrier war, where basically anything flying on the American side was designed and built by Grumman Aircraft. We included the F4F Wildcat, the F6F Hellcat, a TBF Avenger, and several carriers built at Newport News shipyards (which was government owned at the time but is now owned by Grumman), and... we got sued by Grumman. We got sued so hard that the game almost never came out.
After 30+ years of the anime being out there, I am sitting here wondering if Grumman really does not know that Robotech is using their F-14 as (partially) the face of the franchise. Because I guarantee you, if they did know, Harmony Gold would have been hit with a lawsuit and restraining order the likes of which they have never seen before. We might loathe HG for their lawsuits and their deep warchest and the bully tactics, but they are bugs in the mud compared to an international defense and aerospace megacorporation. Grumman might literally own them outright just to sit on distribution by the time it is all over.
There is a Northrop-Grumman office in Seattle, to work directly with the Navy and the carriers stationed here in Puget Sound. It also has a legal branch office which goes after people doing... basically what Harmony Gold is trying to do right now. How do I know this? I got a highly unpleasant phone call from them once. I was building a Northrop P-61 for the sim, and Northrop and Grumman are now only separated by a hyphen in their name.
Harmony Gold is playing with fire here bringing the case up at all. If Northrop-Grumman catches wind of this... oh man.
My first instinct is 'GO Fing call them... but then again, The F-14 was very proximate in Macross Zer0 (which in how good a light it was shown, I guess it'll be ok?...
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Let me guess, Pacific Fighters by 1C. :(
Don't want to drag the thread off on a tangent, but yeah. That lawsuit was the reason a game about the carrier war shipped without a flyable TBF or a Yorktown class carrier (among several other things). For whatever reason, Blazing Angels and Heroes of the Pacific didn't get kicked around the way we did.
Also, from my understanding, the potential infringement of the VF-1 is different in that the F-14 is a physically real object. At least, that's how it was explained to me. I'm just an artist.
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Leanard French is livestreaming Tatsunoko case right now. Will have a link after dinner unless someone beats me to it.
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It is very interesting stuff. Nutshell: HG has the rights to
Robotech the US distribution of Macross, etc. until March 14, 2021. After that, Tatsunoko gets everything back. However, this has no direct bearing on the PGI/IMR/HBS case.
Sorry for all the edits, I want to make sure I'm getting the summary right. :)
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This is the kind of plot twist I can get behind
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Edit: Odd, the video went down. I'll repost later.
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I have a question: okay, say after the suit and if it goes against HG, would it be wise for the BT crews to go to the various studios involved to get the okay to make their versions of the 'Mecha involved? (Sort of a "We don't don't anything to do with Macross, but we do want to use designs inspired from them because of history and stuff"?
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I have a question: okay, say after the suit and if it goes against HG, would it be wise for the BT crews to go to the various studios involved to get the okay to make their versions of the 'Mecha involved? (Sort of a "We don't don't anything to do with Macross, but we do want to use designs inspired from them because of history and stuff"?
*sigh* Why ever open that can of worms again?
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*sigh* Why ever open that can of worms again?
Well...they kind of already did, hence the current suit against PGI/HBS/CGL. I was just wondering if doing so would protect their using the unseen from whoever might get the Macross distribution rights after HG...
EDIT: I wasn't talking about reusing the old art from the '80s, but the just recently released art that is at the center of the suit.
EDIT2: Also, does the above YouTube link not work for anyone else?
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Well...they kind of already did, hence the current suit against PGI/HBS/CGL. I was just wondering if doing so would protect their using the unseen from whoever might get the Macross distribution rights after HG...
"meet the new boss. same as the old boss." kind of scenario probably. though i can't imagine with a nemesis like HG, it could get much worse.
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Well...they kind of already did, hence the current suit against PGI/HBS/CGL. I was just wondering if doing so would protect their using the unseen from whoever might get the Macross distribution rights after HG...
No other company other than HG would bother suing over the visual designs, as long as they're not literal copies.
Also, yeah, the video link stopped working. I'll post it when Leonard re-uploads; I think he's editing out the chaff.
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The arbitration keeps referring to the 41 characters, do these also include mecha designs?
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That link was for the live stream which also does not show up on his channel. I'm waiting as well to post on all BT related threads
As ColBosch has said the anime companies would probably be tickled that BattleTech is still inspired by their designs and as long as it is not an exact copy would either overlook it as being original or see it for what it is, and original piece..
The arbitration keeps referring to the 41 characters, do these also include mecha designs?
From what I watched I don't think it was mentioned to what that is exactly referring to. I would hazard a guess as to yes, along with art for the spacecraft and perhaps the core characters? I don't know though.. Would also depend on if that covers all three series in which case someone would need to count all the mecha from all three series.
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At this time, we simply don't know what those "41 characters" are.
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At this time, we simply don't know what those "41 characters" are.
Yeah, that's a poser, as all the named characters from SDF Macross amongst both Zentradi and UN Spacy/Human civilians, at least according to Wikipedia, only amounts to 35 characters (actually 39, as the Mayor of Macross City, his friend, the UN toady from the first episode and a nurse character from the episodes where Hikaru was recovering from his coma that's not listed on WP). Although, if they're also adding in unnamed stock characters (such as "green-shirt" pilots and stock Zentradi troopers), it could push the number to 41.
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It is very interesting stuff. Nutshell: HG has the rights to Robotech the US distribution of Macross, etc. until March 14, 2021. After that, Tatsunoko gets everything back. However, this has no direct bearing on the PGI/IMR/HBS case.
Sorry for all the edits, I want to make sure I'm getting the summary right. :)
I'm still confused as to why HG is suing Tatsunoko. I get that is has something to do with them losing the license in a few years. But I can't figure out why they would sue over it, or even what they hope to gain by it.
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I'm still confused as to why HG is suing Tatsunoko. I get that is has something to do with them losing the license in a few years. But I can't figure out why they would sue over it, or even what they hope to gain by it.
Can't speak for anyone else, but my pet theory is that Sony's doing its due diligence for the live-action movie, and maybe they're asking HG "Hey, just what, exactly, did you have the legal right to sell us?". Given what came out in the HG v. Tatsunoko court filings, this may be a CYA move, with HG trying desperately to kick any potential (and almost certainly fatal to HG, no matter how it's decided) lawsuit to Tatsunoko and the legal entities that now own it.
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Video is up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrfOtJyJpM
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Just finished it. I have to say that -- like most people -- I am confused.
The idea though that Tatsunoko did not have the rights to license the 41 images... oh man, I don't see how that doesn't hurt HG. The rest doesn't seem anything too exciting.
However, if HG's contract ends in 2021 with no renewal, does that mean Big West can bring over Macross without issue? Does HG's trademarking of names such as U.N. Spacey and Macross still impede that?
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Just finished it. I have to say that -- like most people -- I am confused.
The idea though that Tatsunoko did not have the rights to license the 41 images... oh man, I don't see how that doesn't hurt HG. The rest doesn't seem anything too exciting.
However, if HG's contract ends in 2021 with no renewal, does that mean Big West can bring over Macross without issue? Does HG's trademarking of names such as U.N. Spacey and Macross still impede that?
AFAIK -- trademarks are forever unless demonstrably abandoned, which means that either the holder deliberately disavows them (such as with TSR Hobbies -- WoTC explicitly abandoned the trademark, which is why this page exists* (http://store.tsrgames.com/) without WoTC getting litigious) or others successfully use them in commerce with no retaliation from the holder (which is how "Aspirin", "Cellophane" and a host of other brand names came into general use, and why prestigious journalism magazines like The Columbia Journalism Review always have multiple ads from Xerox, Coca-Cola and others pleading with journalists to not use their products names as shorthand for "photocopy" or "soft drink.")
So it comes down to how much of a headache HG wants to cause till a court calls them on their BS.
*MODS -- the page linked is by way of demonstration, not advertisement. If it still presents rule issues, I will gladly amend the post.
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The timing of this second lawsuit is interesting and I do think there is some potential for it to impact the lawsuit versus Battletech.
It suggests that there is something not actually vaporware in the works that Harmony Gold may not actually have rights to and if it doesn't have the rights to the new offering then what else it might not have rights to becomes a very good question.
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AFAIK -- trademarks are forever unless demonstrably abandoned...
You cannot trademark what you do not own. Macross's trademark will revert to Tatsunoko.
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Better let HG know that lol They will probably try to exploit their Macross trademark after their license expires.
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at which point the court case becomes really simple when people oppose it.
the bigger question would be their Robotech trademarks, and whether any of the macross saga based robotech ones would still stand.
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I'm not sure, I want to say no but my understanding of the wording may not be entirely clear. If fact, if I am reading and hearing this properly from the video HG loses access to all 3 shows as well as everything else (including the Robotech brand) if they cannot entire into a new contract with Tatsunoko. Anyone else feel it comes off that way from the video??
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Well that would make an interesting twist in HG vs PGI/HBS/CGL/et al.
Attorneys for PGI/HBS/CGL/et al: Your honour we move a motion requesting these proceedings be postponed pending the outcome of the hearing HG vs Tatsunoko in the U.S. Civil Court Records for the Central District of California as we believe the outcome of that case has a material impact on the case being put forward by the plantiff.
12-18 months later . . .
Attorneys for PGI/HBS/CGL/et al: Your honour we move a motion requesting that these proceedings be dismissed. We draw your attention to the recent outcome of the HG vs Tatsunoko case in the U.S. Civil Court Records for the Central District of California, where the judgement found that the plantiff has no valid licence on the IP that is central to these proceedings.
Then I wake up from my fantasy daydream ^-^
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Be better to keep pushing the trial date back 12 months in August of next year, then again the next Aug, then again the....
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Just finished it. I have to say that -- like most people -- I am confused.
The idea though that Tatsunoko did not have the rights to license the 41 images... oh man, I don't see how that doesn't hurt HG. The rest doesn't seem anything too exciting.
However, if HG's contract ends in 2021 with no renewal, does that mean Big West can bring over Macross without issue? Does HG's trademarking of names such as U.N. Spacey and Macross still impede that?
regards to the license of the 41 images it really comes down to what those said images are, because Tatsunoko didn't own them therefor they cannot legally have licensed them to HG. If the license is NOT extended then as of march 14 2021 HG owns NOTHING of macross and anything based on it, other than possibly the robotech name but not any of the material and/or anything based on the macross material. or at least that's how I understand what he was saying.
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Be better to keep pushing the trial date back 12 months in August of next year, then again the next Aug, then again the....
Yep until 14 March 2021 ^-^
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Be better to keep pushing the trial date back 12 months in August of next year, then again the next Aug, then again the....
...during which time PGI/HBS/IMR continue to accrue lawyer's fees, even if the court grants such extensions. Such a maneuver would be seen as bad faith anyway. Honestly, if I was the BattleTech companies involved, I might just agree to settle by shelving the contentious designs until 2021. There are still hundreds of 'Mechs available, after all.
But that's me, and still just a maybe. I can understand if the BT guys want to nail HG to the wall for this crap.
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Meanwhile Uncle Carl's spinning so fast you could wrap some wires around him and power a Mad Cat.
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I desperately wish we knew what the 41 characters constituted.
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Video is up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrfOtJyJpM
Can we get a cliff notes version, it's over an hour long.
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About halfway through the video so far, but it seems that by order of arbitration and repeated mutual agreements with the current- and then-heads of Tatsunoko, any and all ownership rights were transferred to Harmony Gold USA from Tatsunoko with their equivalent of a quit-claim deed. So basically HG owns virtually everything about Macross that Tatsunoko did, which was found by Japanese courts to be everything except for "41 characters" that were explicitly the property of Big West. That was the 2002(3?) decision between Tatsunoko and BW, decided in Japan.
As an aside, the rights to market within Japanese borders were also not transferred, hence why we get sequels that stay in-country.
But here's the core of the issue - it's not specified or named in the Arbitration (so far, like I said halfway through) just what those 41 characters that Big West owns in complete perpetuity are. Considering the situation I would not be surprised if those "characters" extended to cover the mecha, at least the "hero" machines. Counterpoint to that is that "characters" tends to be actual people, and in this case there's a sizeable cast once you add up everyone in the human and zentraedi portrayals. So who are the Big West 41? We don't know yet. Not until someone can crack open a Japanese legal decision and find out explicitly, anyway.
IF the 41 characters are just the people - the "characters" in a common parlance - and not the mecha, then Harmony Gold owns them apparently in full. If those 41 characters include the giant robots as "characters" then by express order of Japan's court and multiple followup agreements and the 2017 arbitration that this goes over, Harmony Gold has zero rights at all to the giant robot designs from Macross. At which point their legal claim to the designs goes away, and so does their lawsuit against Piranha and Catalyst. (Hairbrained, and Weisman specifically, is still on the hook because of his signed legal agreement to not contest things, which is entirely separate)
Considering all of their original works (to my knowledge) have been post-New Generation/Mospeada based with entirely new designs (Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles), the latter situation is not impossible.
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Even with the settlement agreement I don't think HBS or Weisman are in any danger. The first point is copyright infringement which as seen by the art is 0%. Next is breach of contract, which is supposefly the infringing images and the initial claim that HBS is the one who created the art for PGI and CGL. As for contesting things. Being a frivolous case I don't see any judge holding that up against HBS & co
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Going a little further, there's confirmation of the hard date of licensing 3/14/21, though that can (and has been several times) renegotiated. At that point, if there's no change, by arbitration the full rights revert back to Tatsunoko. "Claimant (Harmony Gold) has no permanent, exclusive, and irrevocable copyright and trademark rights on the Programs (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada) as same shall belong to Respondent (Tatsunoko) on expiration of the term in 2021" is important as well. However, Claimant (HG) does own all of Robotech as it is in perpetuty,
So HG does own, per the 2003 agreement, all copyright rights to Macross (except the Big West 41) until that date, and owns Robotech forever.
"That was really freakin' complicated" - right from the words of the lawyer. The summary kicks in a touch after the 58 minute mark, if you want to skim to that.
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Found it.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/http://www.macross.co.jp/contents/index.html
We brought a lawsuit against Tatsunoko Production to confirm our copyright ownership of TV anime "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross" which has been broadcast in Japan since 1982.
Consequently, on February 25, 2002, the Tokyo District Court accepted our assertion and ruled that we are copyright owner of all character patterns attached hereto as lists No.1 to No. 41.
It is an inevitable ruling by the court that made a thorough examination on production process of "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross."
We will take advantage of the copyright to develop more "Macross" products.
Said list:
1 VF-1S FIGHTER
2 VF-1S BATTROID
3 VF-1S GERWALK
4 VF-1J FIGHTER
5 VF-1J BATTROID
6 VF-1J GERWALK
7 VF-1D FIGHTER
8 VF-1D BATTROID
9 VF-1D GERWALK
10 VF-1A FIGHTER
11 VF-1A BATTROID
12 VF-1A GERWALK
13 ARMORED VALKYRIE
14 SPARTAN
15 REGULT
16 GLAUG
17 SDF-1 BATTLE SHIP
18 SDF-1
19 PHALANX
20 DEFENDER
21 TOMAHAWK
22 QUEADLUUN-RAU
23 NOUSJADEUL-GER
24 MONSTER
25 QUEADOL-MAGDOMILLA
26 TOUGOU-GUN Emblem
27 ZENTRAEDI Emblem
28 Misa Hayase
29 Hikaru ichijo 1
30 Hikaru ichijo 2
31 Lynn Minmay 1
32 Lynn Minmay 2
33 Lynn Minmay 3
34 Lynn Minmay 4
35 Claudia La Salle
36 CAPTAIN Gloval
37 Maximilian Jeunius
38 Roy Focker
39 Milia Fallyuna Jenius
40 Bullitie
41 Exsedol Folmo
So per the arbitration between Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold, they explicitly did not have the rights to those 41 images among everything that was given to HG. Those rights, that artwork, is entirely the property of Big West and not at all covered under any license to Harmony Gold that I am aware of, unless there was a separate license granted by those two companies.
If the latter has not happened, then Harmony Gold does not own the Macross mech designs. At which point their lawsuit becomes entirely unfounded and legally ceases to exist. HG, accepting the arbitration above, acknowledges that they own all rights to Macross except those 41 characters and it's those exact characters that they are suing over.
This honestly looks like game, set, and match from my POV - but I'm not a lawyer, only going over what I see. Bosch, can you throw the link from archive.org at your lawyer friend and see if I'm right? Because if so, it's over with.
ALL THIS ASIDE - what's it mean for the future of the Classics? Is it something that Catalyst/Topps/PGI/etc will be licensing designs from Big West now, or sticking with the retconned designs?
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Found it.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/http://www.macross.co.jp/contents/index.html
Said list:
1 VF-1S FIGHTER
2 VF-1S BATTROID
3 VF-1S GERWALK
4 VF-1J FIGHTER
5 VF-1J BATTROID
6 VF-1J GERWALK
7 VF-1D FIGHTER
8 VF-1D BATTROID
9 VF-1D GERWALK
10 VF-1A FIGHTER
11 VF-1A BATTROID
12 VF-1A GERWALK
13 ARMORED VALKYRIE
14 SPARTAN
15 REGULT
16 GLAUG
17 SDF-1 BATTLE SHIP
18 SDF-1
19 PHALANX
20 DEFENDER
21 TOMAHAWK
22 QUEADLUUN-RAU
23 NOUSJADEUL-GER
24 MONSTER
25 QUEADOL-MAGDOMILLA
26 TOUGOU-GUN Emblem
27 ZENTRAEDI Emblem
28 Misa Hayase
29 Hikaru ichijo 1
30 Hikaru ichijo 2
31 Lynn Minmay 1
32 Lynn Minmay 2
33 Lynn Minmay 3
34 Lynn Minmay 4
35 Claudia La Salle
36 CAPTAIN Gloval
37 Maximilian Jeunius
38 Roy Focker
39 Milia Fallyuna Jenius
40 Bullitie
41 Exsedol Folmo
So per the arbitration between Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold, they explicitly did not have the rights to those 41 images among everything that was given to HG. Those rights, that artwork, is entirely the property of Big West and not at all covered under any license to Harmony Gold that I am aware of, unless there was a separate license granted by those two companies.
If the latter has not happened, then Harmony Gold does not own the Macross mech designs. At which point their lawsuit becomes entirely unfounded and legally ceases to exist. HG, accepting the arbitration above, acknowledges that they own all rights to Macross except those 41 characters and it's those exact characters that they are suing over.
This honestly looks like game, set, and match from my POV - but I'm not a lawyer, only going over what I see. Bosch, can you throw the link from archive.org at your lawyer friend and see if I'm right? Because if so, it's over with.
ALL THIS ASIDE - what's it mean for the future of the Classics? Is it something that Catalyst/Topps/PGI/etc will be licensing designs from Big West now, or sticking with the retconned designs?
Holy crap!
I think this basically settles it, doesn't it?
HG does not and NEVER HAD the rights to the Unseen designs and can go shove the lawsuit up their collective arse!!!
Doesn't this open up a chance for a counter-suit for all those years of being fraudulently Copyright-bullied by someone who never had the rights to begin with? I mean, couldn't like CGL sue for all the damages this caused over the decades? (I'm no lawyer, don't take this as legal advice, et cetera)
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I think this basically settles it, doesn't it?
Well, actually it might just shift the conflict from HG v PGI/HBS/CG to BigWest/Studio Nue v PGI/HBS/CG.
But considering that Studio Nue has actually worked with FASA on a common project (the Japanese version of BattleTech) in the past one could assume they would be more willing to enter into a mutual understanding of some sort than HG is.
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Well, actually it might just shift the conflict from HG v PGI/HBS/CG to BigWest/Studio Nue v PGI/HBS/CG.
But considering that Studio Nue has actually worked with FASA on a common project (the Japanese version of BattleTech) in the past one could assume they would be more willing to enter into a mutual understanding of some sort than HG is.
Assuming I'm right above, entirely correct. Though if Battletech is ditching the original Macross art and retconning in the Classics, it might be much easier for Big West/Nue to accept as 'different' than Harmony Gold, especially as there's no regional competition. Highlighting that 'acceptance' is the legal fact that, fifteen years ago Big West was awarded entire and complete copyright over those designs, and hasn't once (to our knowledge) tapped Catalyst on the shoulder for it. Granted, now that the US legal system has determined them to own that art and its copyright, maybe they will extend a legal scrutiny to the situation, but that's entirely up to Big West.
The big thing is that Harmony Gold is explicitly denied any ownership of those designs, despite their court claim otherwise. The arbitration that is the source of the August 2017 filing above determines this, and HG agrees to it. So really...they've got nothing to stand on for their other suit, and PGI's stated belief that HG doesn't own the rights (in their legal response) is pretty damn solid.
At this point, moving much faster than the legal system and looking at it in a great big tl;dr, it's up to Big West to decide what to do with the Classics. Hopefully they'll be down with their existence, and we'll get the redesigned mechs originally based on Macross art back as the modern-day classics art. Because damn if Scroggins and company aren't turning out some fantastic stuff that really locks in the Battletech 'walking talk' aesthetic.
Now I REALLY can't wait to see a Crusader!
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So considering HG vs Tatsunoko began prior to HG filing against the PGI/CGL/HBS, Perhaps the latter is an attempt to capitalize in the former's affirmation of [some of] HGs rights, prior to the 2021 use by date rolling around - Making Robotech hay while the licence agreement sun still shines, if you will.
As for the suggestion that stalling until 2021 would benefit any of the respondents in HG v PGI/CGL/HBS, I think any infringement the court deems to have been committed prior to that expiry date would still be fair grounds for litigation. So this would only serve to delay the result, and, as was suggested by pheonixstorm, may be seen as an act of bad faith - "if you aren't guilty, why did you run away?"
The upside of all of this is that the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched on: The current climate of oppressive litigiousness should end in 2021, provided our friends at PGI/CGL/HBS can weather the costs and outcome of HG's suit in the meantime.
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I wonder if we should pester our new best friend Leonard French a third time lol. FASA on the other hand stood no chance as HG at that time had the better licensing which mistakenly included those 41.
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Thanks Juodas Varnas, that look pretty good for BT at this point in time and in the opinion of a non-lawyer.
So PGI/HBS/CGL/et al. need to get their backsides covered by organising a nice legal letter from Studio Nue/Big West to table in court which says, "Yes we Studio Nue/Big West are the legal IP and copyright owners of the Valkyrie, Armoured Valkyrie, Glaug, Spartan, Defender and Tomahawk. We have examined the designs of PGI/HBS/CGL/et al. and find that they do not infringe our IP/copyright."
I also wonder if this may then also be legal grounds for Mr Weisman and other FASA signatories to now seek to have the agreement they signed with Not-Named Corporation declared by the court to be invalidated . . .
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No, the BT guys don't need anything from Studio Nue/Big West. All they need to do is point to the two relevant court documents. Big West and Studio Nue won't sue over the Classics.
Gentlemen, this might be the end of the problem.
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No, the BT guys don't need anything from Studio Nue/Big West. All they need to do is point to the two relevant court documents. Big West and Studio Nue won't sue over the Classics.
Gentlemen, this might be the end of the problem.
Y'know, today being the big USA eclipse...I'm not going to put Act Of God off the list. Because 'Harmony Gold losing Macross mech designs' is right up there with 'the sun turning black as sackcloth' on the apocalypse-o-meter. Anyone got an RPM counter on Uncle Carl's grave yet?
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No, the BT guys don't need anything from Studio Nue/Big West. All they need to do is point to the two relevant court documents. Big West and Studio Nue won't sue over the Classics.
Gentlemen, this might be the end of the problem.
I certainly hope so. I am certainly breathing much more easily.
If that happens and it holds, I wonder if that means the suit by HG could be dismissed with prejudice. They went to court twice against Battletech holders and at least once against another company over rights they didn't have. That cannot look good to any judge or jury.
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There's been some speculation that HG's intent was just to get an agreement out of it, because note the time frames - this suit was going at the same time as their arbitration with Tatsunoko, and with the Big West ownership locked in the writing was on the wall. Try to get PGI/whoever to give up before it gets entered into court record for once and for all that the ownership of the Macross mechs is not and has not been HG's since 2003 (or 2002, depending).
That said, the arbitration's determination of the situation is legally binding as hell, and well...they very clearly don't have the rights they claim. It's in HG's best interest to drop the suit, though I imagine PGI's lawyer is polishing up their most delicious petition for dismissal ever.
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There's this abridged version;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMs6iYXyng&ytbChannel=Lawful%20Masses%20with%20Leonard%20French
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That said, the arbitration's determination of the situation is legally binding as hell, and well...they very clearly don't have the rights they claim. It's in HG's best interest to drop the suit, though I imagine PGI's lawyer is polishing up their most delicious petition for dismissal ever.
Well it does look like that to me (I am not a lawyer). HG should try to drop the case as soon as possible.
Speculation:
- Sony dropping the movie deal. They can't make a franchisee out of Robotech now, not without redesigning/rewriting everything from scratch. Might as well make a Big O movie or make something new.
- I don't think that Tatsunoko will extend the current agreement anymore. In 2021 they are better off selling their regained Macross rights back to Big West.
- HG is going to try and sell a lot of merchandise and DVDs in the next few years.
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No, the BT guys don't need anything from Studio Nue/Big West. All they need to do is point to the two relevant court documents. Big West and Studio Nue won't sue over the Classics.
Gentlemen, this might be the end of the problem.
If true, this is my opinion... (https://youtu.be/IUZEtVbJT5c?t=13s) :)
and this (https://youtu.be/-kcOpyM9cBg?t=25s)
And... (https://youtu.be/bgiQD56eWDk)
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Just to play devil's advocate here...is there any way that HG could prevent the arbitration with Tatsunoko from being brought into play in the suit against PGI et al?
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Just to play devil's advocate here...is there any way that HG could prevent the arbitration with Tatsunoko from being brought into play in the suit against PGI et al?
I think PGI already has. Wasn't one of their arguments that Harmony Gold didn't have the rights to the images in the first place?
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There's been some speculation that HG's intent was just to get an agreement out of it, because note the time frames - this suit was going at the same time as their arbitration with Tatsunoko, and with the Big West ownership locked in the writing was on the wall. Try to get PGI/whoever to give up before it gets entered into court record for once and for all that the ownership of the Macross mechs is not and has not been HG's since 2003 (or 2002, depending).
That said, the arbitration's determination of the situation is legally binding as hell, and well...they very clearly don't have the rights they claim. It's in HG's best interest to drop the suit, though I imagine PGI's lawyer is polishing up their most delicious petition for dismissal ever.
This is so cool -- it's like a real-life, civil-courts version of the old Perry Mason twist, where Perry finds the real murderer (always conveniently sitting in the courtroom) and gets his client off after a dramatic admission of guilt by the truly guilty party.
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I'm amused by the potential for the accused to counter-sue, particularly if it can be proven that HG not only didn't own the rights, but sued while knowing that they lacked them. That leads to some serious damages, considering the amount of time and expense, lost revenue, and lost customers due to the designs being removed from the books and available miniatures. That's potentially far more money than HG ever owned.
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I'm amused by the potential for the accused to counter-sue, particularly if it can be proven that HG not only didn't own the rights, but sued while knowing that they lacked them. That leads to some serious damages, considering the amount of time and expense, lost revenue, and lost customers due to the designs being removed from the books and available miniatures. That's potentially far more money than HG ever owned.
Though, lawsuits are very expensive, so would it be worth it to give HG a (well-deserved) kick in the balls just as they're lying legally prostrate?
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I'm amused by the potential for the accused to counter-sue, particularly if it can be proven that HG not only didn't own the rights, but sued while knowing that they lacked them. That leads to some serious damages, considering the amount of time and expense, lost revenue, and lost customers due to the designs being removed from the books and available miniatures. That's potentially far more money than HG ever owned.
Certainly. If a dismissal with prejudice happens or a counter-suit, my question is how far back does this go? Can HG be punished for the '96 suit because the didn't have the rights (knowingly or unknowingly) or can they only punished as far back as this arbitration agreement or back to when the Japanese courts figured this all out between Studio Nue, Big West, and Tatsunoko?
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i would hope that IMR/CGL would take the higher road and let the matter rest without a counter suit. the robotech fandom is going to be angry enough after the details get out, and seeking damages could make the current divide even worse between the two fandoms. and going for damages could well look petty, damaging IMR/CGL's reputation in other areas.
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Though, lawsuits are very expensive, so would it be worth it to give HG a (well-deserved) kick in the balls just as they're lying legally prostrate?
considering that they are quite likely guilty of not just fraud but malicious and KNOWING fraud? this case should be a slam dunk and then the question comes what punitive damages the "battletech" parties can claim which my dad says he thinks is limited to approximately 10x damages. methinks (and I hope it is the case) that harmony gold looses bigly and is liable for ALL legal expenses plus punitive damages.
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i would hope that IMR/CGL would take the higher road and let the matter rest without a counter suit. the robotech fandom is going to be angry enough after the details get out, and seeking damages could make the current divide even worse between the two fandoms. and going for damages could well look petty, damaging IMR/CGL's reputation in other areas.
This. As I'd mentioned above, it would look like kicking someone when they're down, as well as being an extravagant expense that could be better used to make more product to celebrate the defanging of HG. Remember: "Living well is the best revenge."
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Personally, I don't care about the Robotech fandom. I just hope that this matter is quickly closed, so that Catalyst has nothing else to distract them from the business of being awesome.
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Personally, I don't really care about RoboTech fans. In 2021 Macross should finally be able to make it over, which is probably what a lot are looking forward to anyway.
BattleTech has worn this like a weight around its neck for 21 years. And it isn't something that can just be ignored. Those designs featured heavily in the fiction and art of all the books released up until that point. Miniature sales, video games, the potential of animated series or other features; even the cost of reworking and commissioning new art for planned books and the cost of legal fees from '96. When you get a used book from the early era, those 'mechs are what you see.
In an era where 'mecha fiction was relatively unknown to Americans, borrowing the designs from Macross and Dougram was a good idea as it rapidly quickened the development process for FASA. Right or wrong in the long run that is what happened and the financial consequences AND the path of BattleTech were harmed because of the '96 lawsuit.
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Best to just let things lie. By the way, this would explain why initially 25 Years of Art and Fiction included the Unseen...and, frankly, because it only reprinted old material, should've been released as such.
But we will not see the Unseen return to the game. BattleTech has started a re-imagining process, and to suddenly go back to Varitechs and Battleroids and Glaugs would be moving seriously backwards.
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Best to just let things lie. By the way, this would explain why initially 25 Years of Art and Fiction included the Unseen...and, frankly, because it only reprinted old material, should've been released as such.
But we will not see the Unseen return to the game. BattleTech has started a re-imagining process, and to suddenly go back to Varitechs and Battleroids and Glaugs would be moving seriously backwards.
I agree. I think continuing with the new drawings is in the best for the game.
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Considering the Macross/Robotech fanbase does actually know it is because of Harmony Gold that they have not gotten anything truly new, or good, I'm actually not so sure that they would view a counter-suit by PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as petty or divisive.
Heck I wouldn't be surprised if they welcomed it just so that someone else would be certain to get the distribution rights.
Still though I advise caution. We may be reading more into this case against Tatsunoko than is really there and just because Tatsunoko may not actually own the designs doesn't mean they couldn't license their distribution to Harmony Gold as I don't see anything that says Tatsunoko wasn't the distributor.
As far as the Unseen, even in the best case scenario there is just going to be too much of a legal mess in using the old Macross art to be resolved and I can't see it being cheap to get the rights once that mess is resolved.
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I'll be honest, it would be rather cool to see the Unseen Art available to be used again.
Would I expect it if HG gets the legal but-whoopin' they, since '02 at least, honestly deserve? No. If the, apparent, goal of the 'Classic' art rework is to be applied across a larger swath of Mechs other than the Unseen/Reseen? I'm all for it. I like what has been shown so far.
I know LAMs are still gonna be a tricky thing, but those might be the one thing I wouldn't have a issue with being closer to the Unseen art than anything else. I like my, I think, Wasp LAM minis I have from back in the day.
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We have great artists now, let them innovate.
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We have great artists now, let them innovate.
Agreed. If this newest revelation has the desired effect of banishing the HG bogeyman, at least the artists will not have to tiptoe so carefully.
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Exactly. Enough nostalgia! You want to see the original Unseen, well, there were something like twenty printings of TR3025 and you can find them on eBay for $5. It is time to move on, and I think the Classics are different enough to count as homages rather than direct rip-offs.
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Guys, I'm not arguing for a return of the unseen. I am saying that there should be an attempt to get compensation for the damages because of the fallout.
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considering that they are quite likely guilty of not just fraud but malicious and KNOWING fraud? this case should be a slam dunk and then the question comes what punitive damages the "battletech" parties can claim which my dad says he thinks is limited to approximately 10x damages. methinks (and I hope it is the case) that harmony gold looses bigly and is liable for ALL legal expenses plus punitive damages.
The "BattleTech" parties can claim diddly squat in any case. If the copyright to the images does not belong to HG (or Tatsunoko), it belongs to BigWest/Studio Nue, and the best case scenario is that they won't be as aggressive in clamping down on allegedly infringing artwork as HG is.
Now I am optimistic and I think this best case scenario is pretty likely. Partially because of reasons mentioned above, partially because there has never been any substantial legal problem with re-imagining the non-Macross Unseen (the originals to which are also copyrighted by Japanese companies, including several more by Studio Nue to my knowledge). But claim damages? For what exactly? You need to face the fact that FASA was not using the original unseen images lawfully (ironically, they relied on a license by a company that did not have the rights it claimed to have) and that legal action by the rightful copyright holder would have had the same result as legal action by HG did.
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I would point out that any attempt to go after Harmony Gold for damages is going to be just as expensive, possibly more so, than the current legal defense. I'd suggest that Catalyst's limited financial supply be used to do slightly different things, like make products for us to buy.
I mean, unless you want them to quit making Battletech merchandise, turn into Harmony Gold themselves, and do nothing but sue people...
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Exactly. Leave the past in the past.
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I can get behind that sentiment.
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The "BattleTech" parties can claim diddly squat in any case. If the copyright to the images does not belong to HG (or Tatsunoko), it belongs to BigWest/Studio Nue, and the best case scenario is that they won't be as aggressive in clamping down on allegedly infringing artwork as HG is.
Now I am optimistic and I think this best case scenario is pretty likely. Partially because of reasons mentioned above, partially because there has never been any substantial legal problem with re-imagining the non-Macross Unseen (the originals to which are also copyrighted by Japanese companies, including several more by Studio Nue to my knowledge). But claim damages? For what exactly? You need to face the fact that FASA was not using the original unseen images lawfully (ironically, they relied on a license by a company that did not have the rights it claimed to have) and that legal action by the rightful copyright holder would have had the same result as legal action by HG did.
I would just like to point out that FASA was acting in good faith when they bought the license from TCI. Just as HG did with the Macross rights from Tatsunoko. The irony being that neither TCI nor Tatsunoko actually had the right to sell said licenses. If it hadn't been for the Playmates lawsuit, FASA probably would have fought HG. (How that suit would have turned out is another question entirely). When HG laid suit, FASA was rather shy of lawsuits and decided to settle and walk away from any questionable images. (Settling out of court isn't an admission of guilt.)
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Exactly. Leave the past in the past.
Yeah, I get that, but... Fire & Blood!
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Yeah, I get that, but... Fire & Blood!
No. I'm serious here. Other people's poor behavior is not an excuse for behaving badly.
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No. I'm serious here. Other people's poor behavior is not an excuse for behaving badly.
Exactly. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is not helpful here. CGL from what can be gathered doesn't have the spare resources to engage in petty revenge (especially cold leftovers from the 1996 suit), not if we want the hot new Classics. And if it comes out that HG has to fold their tent and walk away from anime and back to their real-estate and money-laundering businesses, we'll have gotten what we wanted (me personally as both a Macross and Battletech fan doubly so). "Magnanimous in victory," and all that...
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I wonder how this affects Robotech Tactics. Did Palladium get permission from Big West for their use of the art, or did they just assume they already had the rights?
(I assume if that ever turns into a court battle, Harmony Gold will simply lay all the blame on Palladium and claim ignorance).
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I don't imagine for a second anyone will waste a minute of tiem on revenge or payback litigation. I just hope this resolves so the "Classic" re-imaging can continue without hindrance, that we have seemless art and miniature availability as needed, and the Unseen can finally be put down and out of the collective misery, never to be an issue again.
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I would point out that any attempt to go after Harmony Gold for damages is going to be just as expensive, possibly more so, than the current legal defense. I'd suggest that Catalyst's limited financial supply be used to do slightly different things, like make products for us to buy.
I mean, unless you want them to quit making Battletech merchandise, turn into Harmony Gold themselves, and do nothing but sue people...
One of the problems for CGL is money to make products, this would bring in a LOT of money.
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One of the problems for CGL is money to make products, this would bring in a LOT of money.
A thousand times no. NO I say.
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One of the problems for CGL is money to make products, this would bring in a LOT of money.
Still not worth it considering they can't do anything about the FASA settlement. Anything they get would likely have to be based on this case alone.
As for Robotech Tactics, pretty sure that falls under merchandise which *should* be covered under the license by Tatsunoko. HG might not own the rights to the 41 but they should still be able to market and sub-license certain merchandise.
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One of the problems for CGL is money to make products, this would bring in a LOT of money.
No, it would not.
Still not worth it considering they can't do anything about the FASA settlement. Anything they get would likely have to be based on this case alone.
As for Robotech Tactics, pretty sure that falls under merchandise which *should* be covered under the license by Tatsunoko. HG might not own the rights to the 41 but they should still be able to market and sub-license certain merchandise.
Exactly. The arbitrator specifically decided that HG could sublicense and market the properties it had licensed.
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Did you watch the What's up with Catalyst video I put up from GenCon? In it, Loren briefly addresses the HG lawsuit, and while he doesn't give details, he basically said no one should assume this can't be settled amicably at this point. From a business perspective, I got no sense that he had a burning desire for CGL to end up in court and be vindicated. I think CGL and probably HBS and PGI would be perfectly happy to settle rather than win if HG isn't asking for something unreasonable. Lawyers are expensive, even when you 'win'.
No one wants to spend their money on lawsuits, and even though it wouldn't be satisfying, if HG said, "Write us a check for $10k and we will give you a letter saying you are fine and we won't bother you about the unseen anymore." that would be a good deal that I imagine any of the three companies would take. Sadly, being HG, it's more likely they will start out with, "Write us a check for $500k, each, and we'll drop the case...for now," and you will have to work them down to something reasonable. I've been in negotiations like that before. They aren't fun, but you do get used to the 'game', and don't get quite as mad at having to play it after a while.
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*nods* Or they could work with HG to tweak the designs to be less like the Macross images. The goal here is to have both parties making quality products without stepping each others' toes, not revengeance.
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No, it would not.
Exactly. The arbitrator specifically decided that HG could sublicense and market the properties it had licensed.
Determination of merchandising rights was a sticking point between Tatsunoko and HGUSA, but their 2003 agreement basically gave them everything BUT the in-japan merch rights. And Robotech itself is still owned by HG in perpetuity, including all derivative works related to Robotech - like the game.
Personally, as far as the film goes, I'm actually glad for this situation - a Macross-era film would be overplayed and overdone, especially with as much as the franchise exists over the ocean, and when 2021 happens it all goes back anyway. BUT! Southern Cross, and especially Mospeada, are still in HG's hands. Pour one out for Artmic, but they're long gone and arguably all their work for Genesis Climber Mospeada is fair game for a film. And frankly? A post-Invid assault on earth, following a group of freedom fighters in a mixed bag of hardware trying to get to the core hive because they know the Secret McMuffin to wipe out the hive mind?
Can you say "transforming robot powersuit motorcycle Cyclone biker gangs on the big screen?" I knew you could.
http://www.bbb-bike.com/mospeada/vol25.html
Oh, I knew you could.
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Exactly. The arbitrator specifically decided that HG could sublicense and market the properties it had licensed.
But they also ruled that Harmony Gold didn't have a valid license to 41 characters, which apparently includes all of the mecha currently featured in Robotech tactics. How could their sub-license be valid if their license isn't? Law is confusing.
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*nods* Or they could work with HG to tweak the designs to be less like the Macross images. The goal here is to have both parties making quality products without stepping each others' toes, not revengeance.
Maybe, but given how I've heard them deal with people on the Macross side of the house (the absolutely titanic struggle to get legitimate merchandise -- for instance the licensed Yamato transformable Valks -- over here, even through the grey market, and even with BIG WEST THEMSELVES allowing Yamato to forgo Macross branding in favor of calling them "Sunwards" to get around HG's trademark, or demanding cuts of the profits of installments in the Macross franchise they don't even remotely own) I'm afraid it wouldn't be "tweaktweaktweak, OK, that's acceptible", but more like "pay us Danegeld to go away, and maybe -- just maybe -- we won't sue later down the line when we feel like it." I don't want petty revenge (the talk of countersuits), but if PGI/HBS/IMR/CGL have the ammunition to make HG stop, once and for all, with its crap and never return, I'd rather they use it if at all legally possible.
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If I'm following everything correctly here is what I've managed to figure out from what has come to light in the Harmony Gold vs Tatsunoko case:
Tatsunoko does have the rights to distribute/produce works based off the original 41 designs in Japan and could even do so beyond but rather than do so themselves gave the international rights to Harmony Gold Hong Kong who then gave it to Harmony Gold USA.
The various cases don't actually change the distribution/production rights as far as I can tell.
This isn't actually that unusual. One group can own the images themselves but another can distribute/produce them and in the case of international copyright, the company in the nation outside the originators from what I can determine does have the right to copyright the images themselves in the country in question to protect their distribution rights.
So even though Big West owns the images it seems Tatsunoko does have the rights for distribution if I'm parsing everything in the documents correctly and Harmony Gold's claims may actually be on fairly solid ground.
I could easily be wrong because those documents are a bit tough to wrap my head around or there may be information hiding in not publicly available documents but any celebrating about Harmony Gold's case against Battletech being dead now seems a bit premature anyway.
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Did you watch the What's up with Catalyst video I put up from GenCon? In it, Loren briefly addresses the HG lawsuit
Think I missed this, know around when this was discussed?
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If I'm following everything correctly here is what I've managed to figure out from what has come to light in the Harmony Gold vs Tatsunoko case:
Tatsunoko does have the rights to distribute/produce works based off the original 41 designs in Japan and could even do so beyond but rather than do so themselves gave the international rights to Harmony Gold Hong Kong who then gave it to Harmony Gold USA.
Actually that is incorrect there is a distinction between the designs and animation.
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And that is both potentially the problem and solution at the same time as far as the Harmony Gold USA versus Battletech case is concerned.
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Think I missed this, know around when this was discussed?
I believe its in the last 10 minutes. First Q&A question.
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Conversation at the CGL panel at Gencon comes up at about 36 minutes in.
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If I'm following everything correctly here is what I've managed to figure out from what has come to light in the Harmony Gold vs Tatsunoko case:
Tatsunoko does have the rights to distribute/produce works based off the original 41 designs in Japan and could even do so beyond but rather than do so themselves gave the international rights to Harmony Gold Hong Kong who then gave it to Harmony Gold USA.
The various cases don't actually change the distribution/production rights as far as I can tell.
This isn't actually that unusual. One group can own the images themselves but another can distribute/produce them and in the case of international copyright, the company in the nation outside the originators from what I can determine does have the right to copyright the images themselves in the country in question to protect their distribution rights.
So even though Big West owns the images it seems Tatsunoko does have the rights for distribution if I'm parsing everything in the documents correctly and Harmony Gold's claims may actually be on fairly solid ground.
I could easily be wrong because those documents are a bit tough to wrap my head around or there may be information hiding in not publicly available documents but any celebrating about Harmony Gold's case against Battletech being dead now seems a bit premature anyway.
I am afraid this isn't really the game changer many believe it to be, either. Harmony Gold still created Robotech. HG still retains distribution and merchandising rights for Robotech. Harmony Gold still holds a number of Macross-related trademarks and copyrights in the United States. It certainly doesn't help their position but by itself it doesn't sink them either.
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But they have zero copyright over the images and designs of the 41 characters and mecha created by Big West, the list of which I posted above. And their rights to Macross itself are licensee only, expire in less than four years, and don't cover the ownership of the 'Mechs. Robotech as it exists they have the rights to, since they created it, and can create future derivate works to, but that's it.
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it does put IMR/CGL/PGI/HBS into a much stronger position for the current lawsuit.. not only can it be shown that the the remade designs are distinct from the macross stuff, but also that HG doesn't actually have legal grounds to sue over them anyway, since HG does not have control over the macross mecha in question.
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But they have zero copyright over the images and designs of the 41 characters and mecha created by Big West, the list of which I posted above. And their rights to Macross itself are licensee only, expire in less than four years, and don't cover the ownership of the 'Mechs. Robotech as it exists they have the rights to, since they created it, and can create future derivate works to, but that's it.
Actually they can have copyrights to those images without having created or owning them. They just need distribution rights. At least if I am parsing US copyright law correctly.
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Based just on the artwork I would think probably no, but given the rights they do have they may have *some* indirect claim. That will be a tricky thing to figure out in the courts I would assume. The swamp just gets more and more murkier the more you dig :o
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They have rights to distribute and make derivative work of their Robotech stuff, and distribution rights and others to macross as well. Whatever they do with Macross, I'm guessing based on my limited interpretation, can be a derivative work of Macross yet NOT use those particular characters or mecha designs. Macross Zero is (mostly) a good depiction of this. If you look at the mecha designs for the prototypes in M0, they're definitely different from that which we've seen in Macross. All the characters, as well, outside of Roy Fokker are new and different characters. A new work using the rights for Macross can be created, just like M0 was, without using the express designs owned by Big West - if you replace Roy Fokker with another original character, then nothing you see for "41 characters" in Macross shows up in Macross Zero. They also have distribution and merchandising rights outside of Japan to the Macross that's already created, but that's simply merchandising things from the story - not the coypright ownership for those particular machines and characters, though that could potentially be debated.
And of course, doing the same with any Robotech product. You'll notice that all their offshoots have been post Invid-Invasion, taking whole new character designs for "Rick Hunter" and "Lisa Hayes" which are Robotech characters, not Macross. Change the design, create a new character, fit them into an existing universe, bueno.
Like the lawyer said, this is complex as hell.
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macross zero is a bad example, because it was made by Studio Nue/Big West, who have clear ownership of the 41.
a better example would be Robotech Shadow Chronicles and the comic Prelude to Shadow Chronicles. HG completely redesigned all the macross characters that appear. to some degree this was required because hey, it was set 30 years later. but the changes were fairly major
Rick Hunter went from this:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8O43AuFNehE/hqdefault.jpg
to this
https://i0.wp.com/www.ungeek.ph/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/old-rick-hunter.jpg?w=838
Lisa Hayes went from this
https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/robotechvisions/images/a/a2/LisaHayes.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140818113359
to this
https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/robotech/images/2/20/Lisa_Hayes%2C_battle-weary_but_proud.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20140807233527
and breetai (who in settign they couldn't age much at all) went from this:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/5344/1643250-breetai_03.png
to wearing a funky helmet to hide is hace
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2i4Xikk3LbE/Rk_riSRBc2I/AAAAAAAAARk/Da9Au5ABD3o/s320/prelude_2l.jpg
the only time the macross based characters appear in their macross designs are in the stuff set at the time of the 1st section of the show.. and they don't appear at all between these two timeframes (macross saga, and the shadow chronicles saga)
and the macross saga stuff (From the stars, Love and War, and the B-story for Invasion) is either set purely in macross saga or before, and the ones that are not are heavily lacking any tie ins to the later segments, even though HG has established that many of the units seen in, for example, the southern cross segment, would already be in use at the time. that lack suggests that HG can use the macross designs in a limited case, but can't go around blending it with the other parts. (no ASC ships seen working alongside zentreadi ones at the end of the mars base story in Invasion.. or ASC mecha in the opening/ending of 'from the stars' either.) since many of the comic's storylines are aimed at bridging the gaps between the segments, and filling in a few setting details that became plotpoints in later segments, it is a bit of an odd lack.
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I tossed Zero out because it had very similar stuff to the original SDF:M series, though was considered different by the producers, and told a Macross story without (almost) any established Macross characters. Via the same way, they could tell Robotech stories set during the great world war talking about the forming of the UN government, or follow a team during the original series out in a base somewhere that has experimental/variant/old prototype destroids perhaps, or whatever
Lots of room to maneuver, is my point.
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I agree. I think continuing with the new drawings is in the best for the game.
It is, although I will have a place on my table for some particular proxies. ;)
As a fan of both franchises, I would love to see some sort of continuation of the minis for Macross, as well.
edit: I find it funny that HG had to fight hard over units that were never really integral to the story other than as a few background pieces. You don't see much of the Tomahawk in action but for a few rare shots. Not a big player. Same with the Spartan. The Defender and Phalanx get a little more screen-time as specialist units dedicated to air-defense.
The stars of the show were the variable fighters. I find BT did a lot more for those designs than the original Macross story. I was wondering why they didn't do some side stories dealing with the Destroid Corps, and now I guess I know why. But, that doesn't explain why the Japanese companies didn't, either.
[shrug]
There might be something to the spiritual aspect - This is a year of Jubilee, a time when objects and property are restored to their rightful owners. Studio Nue and Big West and Tatsunoko are the rightful owners in some fashion or other. Make of that what you will.
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Not sure if anyone noticed on this thread, but at least two of the images on the document were edited. The PGI Warhammer and the PGI Phoenix Hawk.
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Not sure if anyone noticed on this thread, but at least two of the images on the document were edited. The PGI Warhammer and the PGI Phoenix Hawk.
Yeah, the Warhammer was stretched vertically and the Phoenix hawk had its arm cropped out.
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Didn't notice that. Stretching vertically I could see as an artifact of the document creation, the generating program making it fit a specific set of dimensions for the legal work, but editing art and claiming it's what your infringers are using? Bad pool, HGUSA.
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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but you folks seem to forget one crucially important thing:
There was no HG/Tatsunoko lawsuit. Hence, nothing was decided in court in any legally binding fashion.
Instead, they went into Arbitration (as stipulated by their contract, but still). As far as I understand the pertinent law, Arbitration is sort of a contract between the two parties involved.
As far as third parties - and by extension, the court ruling over the HG vs. HBS, PGI, CGL et al lawsuit - are concerned, the result of the arbitration is just the opinion of the arbitrator.
Which means the court in Seattle still has to decide for itself wether or not HG has the rights they is basing their claims on. There are indications, namely the 2003 decision of a Japanese court that I haven't read myself and the Arbitration result that HG apparently openly embraces, that point to HG not having the rights to those 41 characters. The burden of proof is upon them as far as I can see. But beyond making the BattleTech related court case fall apart, this doesn't have much of an impact on BattleTech.
Now it could be argued that HG not having (nor ever having had) these rights means they were never in a position to bully FASA and Weisman personally into signing that settlement agreement back in 1996, as they misrepresented the facts (even if unknowingly). In my country, this might give you legal leverage to have the old settlement agreement declared invalid in a new lawsuit, or at least re-negotiated. Of course, it's a risk vs. reward gamble for Weisman and I suppose the costs would be too high to risk versus the possible gain of upturning that settlement agreement.
As others have said, just because HG didn't have the copyrights in question doesn't automatically mean that FASA did have them.
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Frabby, there was a Tatsunoko vs. HG lawsuit. Tatsunoko sued Harmony Gold over royalty payments and misuse of the license. This arbitration agreement is the final result. The two companies hired someone to review their claims instead of letting the court decide. This is an extremely common - and heavily encouraged - practice. Turning the final document over to the court is a formality saying "we've come to an agreement and want this as part of the public record."
Now, you are correct that this might not affect the BattleTech case at all. But maybe it will. It's certainly something I'd be looking at, were I on PGI's or IMR's legal team.
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But beyond making the BattleTech related court case fall apart, this doesn't have much of an impact on BattleTech.
That honestly IS a lot of impact on Battletech. Not so much on the production side, but the financial aspect of American court cases is pretty high. And, in a US court, arbitration is just as binding as anything else - it simply is a way of getting around having a judge decide it, and an arbitrator mutually agreed upon by both sides steps in before it gets to the judge and makes his determination. That's how you get a lot of out-of-court settlements - the suit is filed, the process goes along, but then both parties agree via other methods than a judge/jury to reach a final legal agreement. And it's an entirely binding legal agreement.
That said, the point I'm making is this - the legal fees mentioned and the dollar amounts awarded to the various recipients...I would go out on, in my opinion, a pretty damn solid limb and say there ain't no way the Catalyst folks have the hard cash to drop that much on lawyers just to prove a point. If the lawsuit goes away, permanently, then that's a giant thorn out of the side of Catalyst's financial end. Remember that the last time we did this do-si-do, FASA caved because they couldn't afford to fight it. I doubt that Brent and company are rolling in the dough compared to those days...
edit: tl;dr, blah blah blah what Bosch said. Damn fast typist.
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Didn't notice that. Stretching vertically I could see as an artifact of the document creation, the generating program making it fit a specific set of dimensions for the legal work, but editing art and claiming it's what your infringers are using? Bad pool, HGUSA.
I think that, once pointed out, it will blow HG's credibility to hell. After all, if they are so lacking in confidence in their case that they edited images to make it stronger, then I see no reason for a judge or jury to entertain their case for even a second.
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I think that, once pointed out, it will blow HG's credibility to hell. After all, if they are so lacking in confidence in their case that they edited images to make it stronger, then I see no reason for a judge or jury to entertain their case for even a second.
Unlikely. Judges tend to be pretty reasonable about stuff like that. At worst, the judge might ask them to amend the complaint. The judge probably doesn't have any interest in deciding how much of a screenshot from a webpage they should crop out to be relevant. Also the defense is welcome to submit their own images, or un-altered versions of what is in the complaint. Basically, if called out, it would likely be a matter of HGs lawyers just saying, 'oops, they got screwed up when we dropped them in Word. Well go fix that.' Minutiae does matter in court, but not in that way. Contract language and the language of a law are fair game for arguing minor details. Quibbling about how a picture was scaled in a complaint? That isn't going to go anywhere. A better way to deal with it is just to submit your own images as evidence if the case goes that far.
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Unlikely. Judges tend to be pretty reasonable about stuff like that. At worst, the judge might ask them to amend the complaint. The judge probably doesn't have any interest in deciding how much of a screenshot from a webpage they should crop out to be relevant. Also the defense is welcome to submit their own images, or un-altered versions of what is in the complaint. Basically, if called out, it would likely be a matter of HGs lawyers just saying, 'oops, they got screwed up when we dropped them in Word. Well go fix that.' Minutiae does matter in court, but not in that way. Contract language and the language of a law are fair game for arguing minor details. Quibbling about how a picture was scaled in a complaint? That isn't going to go anywhere. A better way to deal with it is just to submit your own images as evidence if the case goes that far.
However, while the "oops bad crop" thing might fly with the Phoenix Hawk(except for the part where they edited out a major difference between the Super Valkyrie and the PGI Phoenix Hawk), I highly doubt it will fly with the Warhammer, given that they edited in such a way as to change the silhouette to better match the Tomahawk.
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However, while the "oops bad crop" thing might fly with the Phoenix Hawk(except for the part where they edited out a major difference between the Super Valkyrie and the PGI Phoenix Hawk), I highly doubt it will fly with the Warhammer, given that they edited in such a way as to change the silhouette to better match the Tomahawk.
These images are not evidence at this point. They are just there to establish HG's argument for starting a lawsuit. They are free to manipulate them to show similarities.
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So since nothing new is happening it would appear the main MWO lawsuit thread has devolved into arguing about the merits of Gundam v Macross.
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Ok, question. The portion related to CGL only covers the Marauder and Warhammer correct?
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i believe those are just the examples they have used, and it would effect all the classics derived from macross unseens.
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Ok, question. The portion related to CGL only covers the Marauder and Warhammer correct?
And the new Archer, but they are free to amend at any time.
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So since nothing new is happening it would appear the main MWO lawsuit thread has devolved into arguing about the merits of Gundam v Macross.
So MWO's forum moderation stinks. Got it.
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Ok, so why didn't the Wasp, Valkyrie, and P. Hawk get added? The art for two of those were in CM Kurita and the Valk was in 1st SW. All of which were released mid 2016 or earlier. The new Rifleman I can see not being around since that art was never used other than the few teasers we got.
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Ok, so why didn't the Wasp, Valkyrie, and P. Hawk get added? The art for two of those were in CM Kurita and the Valk was in 1st SW. All of which were released mid 2016 or earlier. The new Rifleman I can see not being around since that art was never used other than the few teasers we got.
Maybe HG doesn't feel they're close enough to build a case around. Maybe they didn't know about them. Maybe they're working on a revised complaint right now. Who knows? Why even bring it up when there is no way the question can be answered?
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I won't be surprised if Harmony Gold does amend the complaint again.
We also can't forget IMR/CGL are also being cited as a party to breaking the legally binding agreement signed in 1996.
I'll laugh my ass off then dance for joy if I get a jury summons for federal court though.
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Yeah, the Warhammer was stretched vertically and the Phoenix hawk had its arm cropped out.
That might simply have been the pictures they found or something like that
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That might simply have been the pictures they found or something like that
Nope. Every picture of the PGI Phoenix Hawk I've seen on the internet has the double laser pistol on the right arm, and the Warhammer was quite clearly edited as the PGI Warhammer is wider and stockier than the Tomahawk.
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Which we still can't call Harmony Gold out on too much.
It is only if they try and do that for their actual submittal of evidence.
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HG also went after HBS for designs have nothing to do with Robotech, don't know if their hopping to fool a judge or have actual lost touch with the reality of the product
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Yeah, the examples they gave from HBS are very weak. It really does feel like a ploy to drag in Jordan Weisman, since he's the only direct link to the FASA agreement. If HBS shows that they have not implemented any of the designs in question, then they're fine.
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You are referring to the PGI designs in the complaint I assume?
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HBS is using the same designs/models as PGI but the claims leveled specifically at HBS are so drastically different that they should have no trouble getting everything leveled at them specifically dismissed. With prejudice too, at least sort of. I doubt the breach of contract claims can be truly dismissed with prejudice without something to negate the contract as well.
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it occurs to me that if HG does by some miracle win the case vs HBS/PGI/IMR.. the precedent that sets will bite HG in the rear end with the live action film.
because if they are doing macross saga (which by all indications they are), HG will have to major redesigns to the mecha in order to avoid infringing on Studio-Nue's property.
but if Hg wins the case vs HBS/PGI/IMR, the precedent set will be that even major changes to the appearance and design does not stop it being infringement.
so if HG wins against mechwarrior and battletech.. live action robotech loses. it either cannot be done, or has to have so many changes that it becomes robotech in name only.
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To me, the ultimate irony is that if the Robotech film ever leaves development hell, there's still a strong likelihood that the director, or producer, or production designer, or other controlling party will still change the designs dramatically from the original Macross if only the make them their own. Any intelligent executive producer will want to have visual changes made to the Robotech mecha, if only to have more control over the IP and merchandising rather than rely on a problematic IP license.
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To me, the ultimate irony is that if the Robotech film ever leaves development hell, there's still a strong likelihood that the director, or producer, or production designer, or other controlling party will still change the designs dramatically from the original Macross if only the make them their own. Any intelligent executive producer will want to have visual changes made to the Robotech mecha, if only to have more control over the IP and merchandising rather than rely on a problematic IP license.
They absolutely have to redesign the mecha for the movie. Sony would not be interested in making a big-budget, FX-heavy film purely for the American market. Also, the designs look awfully dated these days.
But I think the movie is dead in the water. Pac Rim 2 comes out early 2018, so if they wanted to compete with it they should've started filming last year. If they were to start filming right now, this could be out late 2018 or early 2019, but what's the point? It'll make a bit of money, but there's no franchise past 2021.
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Could Sony licence the rights for The
Robotech Macross Movie 2: The Invid Strikes Back direct from Tatsunoko after 2021?
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Which is the story of HG's life-- I mean the thing is, they breathelessly announce another studio has optioned the rights, or a director has read a script roughly once every four years or so.
Doesn't mean anything. The one thing you never hear about is "we're starting production" "we're doing anything that would require money."
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Could Sony licence the rights for The Robotech Macross Movie 2: The Invid Strikes Back direct from Tatsunoko after 2021?
Why? Nobody cares about the Invid. The thing is, if they're going to do hat, why not wait until the rights revert and then, license an honest to god Macross movie. It's not like they don't have lots of room for stories in it.
Robotech is narrative, tiny. sure you have them talking about galaxies and such, but the only things that count in the show are the MC's and very small battles. MAcross? Between colonization fleets and offworld colonies, you can pretty much have full movie adventures, even if the "main characters" never make an appearance, IE, the reason we'v enever seen Rick at all since the origional series.
Also, if you license it from the people who owned the rigbhts, you eliminate any of the possible problems with Robotech IP.
Lastly, a Macross movie has the advantage that you're not using a word "robotech" that is cordially hated by many fans due to HG's actions. Seriously, why make a movie that a number of people will loudly hate? Especially since everyone else will be going: What? What is robotech?
Trnasformers is often mentioned when talk of a robotech movie comes about, but the thing is, Transformers is a living franchise that had pretty much continuious activity from the 1980s until the movies. Robotech is nearly unknown beyond a relatively small group, many of whom only know it because it's the property that keeps them from buying Macross stuff.
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Lastly, a Macross movie has the advantage that you're not using a word "robotech" that is cordially hated by many fans due to HG's actions. Seriously, why make a movie that a number of people will loudly hate? Especially since everyone else will be going: What? What is robotech?
Sony isn't chasing Robotech fans anymore than the Transformers films were made for Transformer fans directly, they will be chasing mainstream people who vaguely recall watching that cartoon with the transformable jets and that big spaceship that transformed, I think it was called Robosomething, or yeah Robotech.
Macross has no little to utterly no mainstream fan recognition outside of anime fans, to the point it would be better to start a new IP rather than license it for a live action movie.
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So still more than a year out. I imagine the parties are still in talks and it doesn't look like anything new on the website collecting the court documents -- unless I missed something. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in either lawyer's office.
I was thinking that the idea of how a layman's view might help us. Those that are ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) of these kinds of fictional universes might not be able to tell the difference of any of these -- much the way that my dad couldn't tell the difference between Alternative rock songs.
"They all sound the same!"
"Yeah, dad, because they use guitars, have a male vocalist, and are in 4/4 time. What do you want?"
But all those songs were different -- at least to me. And different enough that artists didn't sue each other. So what then if the Rifleman and Defender have arms ending in double-barrel cannons? That's the way it is because they each carry symmetrical weapons load outs with two big guns in each arm -- it is what it is and you can't copyright that.
That's if there isn't a settlement first. Unfortunately, monbvol, having been summoned to jury duty once myself, they won't accept you on the jury if you have even a whiff of knowledge about the case. The lawyers will smell you out and you won't get picked.
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The thing is: While both brands (RoboTech and Macross) have no appreciable amount of recognition in the West (the former a teensy bit more than the latter), making a Macross movie would at least have some potential of activating fans in Japan. Of course, as Ghost in the Shell has shown, this sort of calculation does not necessarily work out, especially if your movie is overall rather "meh" and you severely overestimated the mainstream appeal (in Japan) of your property in the first place.
Transformers is a different story, with considerably deeper roots in the US mainstream.
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So still more than a year out. I imagine the parties are still in talks and it doesn't look like anything new on the website collecting the court documents -- unless I missed something. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in either lawyer's office.
I was thinking that the idea of how a layman's view might help us. Those that are ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) of these kinds of fictional universes might not be able to tell the difference of any of these -- much the way that my dad couldn't tell the difference between Alternative rock songs.
"They all sound the same!"
"Yeah, dad, because they use guitars, have a male vocalist, and are in 4/4 time. What do you want?"
But all those songs were different -- at least to me. And different enough that artists didn't sue each other. So what then if the Rifleman and Defender have arms ending in double-barrel cannons? That's the way it is because they each carry symmetrical weapons load outs with two big guns in each arm -- it is what it is and you can't copyright that.
That's if there isn't a settlement first. Unfortunately, monbvol, having been summoned to jury duty once myself, they won't accept you on the jury if you have even a whiff of knowledge about the case. The lawyers will smell you out and you won't get picked.
Yeah, that's the key point here. Hell, I'd wager the prosecution will not accept any lawyer on the case that's even a whiff of a mecha fan. Someone who liked Transformers? Nope. Someone who likes Giant Robots? Not a chance. Watched Robotech as a kid? Oh heck no! Pacific Rim? Not gonna happen.
They will want the most boring, not geeky people they can find. Even people from Detail Oriented Professions are typically not accepted on Juries either. That works against the side we want to win here. Lawyers trying to lead them on or not, remember, the other side's lawyer is trying to tell them the opposite, that this IS similar.
12 Bored, unhappy to be on Jury Duty people, deciding this. That's what we're looking at. 12 people like abou's dad who might not care about the minutiae distinctions here, and instead might think all giant robots look alike because that's what HG's lawyer will be trying to convince them of.
That's scary. Worst case scenario to be fair, but still a bit scary if the jury selection works out poorly.
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I'll laugh my ass off then dance for joy if I get a jury summons for federal court though.
For some reason, I don't think you would make it through voie dire!
The more I think about it, and the more I look at the complaint, the more I think this is headed for a settlement. The claims to bring in HBS are a joke, PGI and CGL don't belong in the same suit, and dragging PGI into US court is a stretch. HG are many things, but legally stupid usually isn't one of them. It just 'feels' like they want something out of a settlement here, but I'm not totally sure what. I don't think it is money, or at least not just money. I'm sure they will demand some money, because why wouldn't they, but I doubt that is what they are really after. Do they want a covenant not to sue? Do they think they need to do this to protect their IP rights? Is it something more nuanced that I'm missing? I'm not really sure, but their whole complaint just seems like something you would file to get people to the table. That's just my opinion though.
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I may be in the minority but I preferred the Invid Invasion to Macross era Robotech.
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For some reason, I don't think you would make it through voie dire!
The more I think about it, and the more I look at the complaint, the more I think this is headed for a settlement. The claims to bring in HBS are a joke, PGI and CGL don't belong in the same suit, and dragging PGI into US court is a stretch. HG are many things, but legally stupid usually isn't one of them. It just 'feels' like they want something out of a settlement here, but I'm not totally sure what. I don't think it is money, or at least not just money. I'm sure they will demand some money, because why wouldn't they, but I doubt that is what they are really after. Do they want a covenant not to sue? Do they think they need to do this to protect their IP rights? Is it something more nuanced that I'm missing? I'm not really sure, but their whole complaint just seems like something you would file to get people to the table. That's just my opinion though.
Oh I think you're right: I think this was HG's usually tactic of flinging a suit at someone and hoping to intimidate that into a settlement. Except it didn't work because PGI/HBS called their bluff.
And as for a poor jury selection, well, both sides lawyers have a say in the selection process. And really, what PGI/HBS lawyers need to hammer away at is the arbitration agreement that HG has with Tatsunoko. IMHO it doesn't matter how close the artwork is, if it can be shown that HG doesn't have the rights to those designs.
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HBS is using the same designs/models as PGI but the claims leveled specifically at HBS are so drastically different that they should have no trouble getting everything leveled at them specifically dismissed. With prejudice too, at least sort of. I doubt the breach of contract claims can be truly dismissed with prejudice without something to negate the contract as well.
Indeed. Comparing the Locust to the Marauder? The Shadow Hawk to the Crusader? That list was so ridiculous that even the most ignorant judge or juror who might not see the difference between the MWO Warhammer and Robotech Tomahawk would reject them.
Yeah, that's the key point here. Hell, I'd wager the prosecution will not accept any lawyer on the case that's even a whiff of a mecha fan. Someone who liked Transformers? Nope. Someone who likes Giant Robots? Not a chance. Watched Robotech as a kid? Oh heck no! Pacific Rim? Not gonna happen.
They will want the most boring, not geeky people they can find. Even people from Detail Oriented Professions are typically not accepted on Juries either. That works against the side we want to win here. Lawyers trying to lead them on or not, remember, the other side's lawyer is trying to tell them the opposite, that this IS similar.
12 Bored, unhappy to be on Jury Duty people, deciding this. That's what we're looking at. 12 people like abou's dad who might not care about the minutiae distinctions here, and instead might think all giant robots look alike because that's what HG's lawyer will be trying to convince them of.
That's scary. Worst case scenario to be fair, but still a bit scary if the jury selection works out poorly.
That's very true. And those types of people may not see the differences between the MWO designs of the Warhammer, Marauder, and Archer as being sufficiently obvious to the Robotech designs they are akin to. And the book covers on the report I saw may also not be sufficiently different.
But as others have said, if these same people saw a picture of a VFA-103 F-14 (nicknamed the Jolly Rogers) and a Skull Squadron Valkyrie would not see the same level of differences.
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Indeed. Comparing the Locust to the Marauder? The Shadow Hawk to the Crusader? That list was so ridiculous that even the most ignorant judge or juror who might not see the difference between the MWO Warhammer and Robotech Tomahawk would reject them.
Actually they're comparing the Shadow Hawk to the Archer (which is even more hilarious)
It's the Atlas that's being compared to the Crusader (despite Atlas being a completely original design).
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I guess my main point was this: to the layman they make look the same -- all of them. These look humanoid, those don't. Whatever. So none of it matters. Without samurai-inspired details of the head, a Gundam looks like any other. If it wasn't for manufacturer's icons on the front of the car, I wouldn't know that Infinity SUV or Nissan sedan from any other. Which I think was the whole point of Leonard French's video: how can you copyright this stuff unless it is overwhelmingly identical or a straight-up copy. Even the samurai motif of the Gundam can't be strictly taken as anyone can site inspiration from samurai armor.
I don't want to veer too off the course though. Just my ruminations on my day off when I should be cleaning the house.
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And that is part of PGI and HBS's defenses as I understand them.
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Actually they're comparing the Shadow Hawk to the Archer (which is even more hilarious)
It's the Atlas that's being compared to the Crusader (despite Atlas being a completely original design).
That's right, but unless one is legally blind, it's fairly obvious the similarities are about as much as chainmail vikings and space marines.
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Is HG starting to remind anyone else of Don Fanucci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Fanucci) from the Godfather pt2?
I may be in the minority but I preferred the Invid Invasion to Macross era Robotech.
Would be a lot easier to make. Fewer sets, generic location shots, easier plot for execs to understand, and any script doctor can inject a love triangle to meet industry standards.
"It's like Rogue One but with giant robots fighting giant alien robots" sounds easier to understand in an elevator ride than "It's like Transformers but in space, fighting aliens, who look human but are the size of giant robots and hate pop music, so they are defeated by pop songs."
But I guess that's a topic for another thread...
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Actually they're comparing the Shadow Hawk to the Archer (which is even more hilarious)
It's the Atlas that's being compared to the Crusader (despite Atlas being a completely original design).
The off the wall comparisons are probably a "hail Mary" sort of move. If somehow HG convinces a jury that the Atlas IS derived from the Crusader (both walking robots, both have missile weapons, two arms, two legs, etc) and also prove that the similarity infringes on their copyright, well, basically they own Battletech's art.
Edit: fixed trademark / copyright oopsie
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Not likely, especially since the design of the Atlas is just as old as the RT stuff and was never challenged in the 90s. To claim it now is a means to go after HBS for breach of the settlement agreement. No matter how you look at it there is no viable copyright claim there. Also, there is no way they can make a trademark claim, that is completely different. If BattleTech was instead Robowars or some such I could see a trademark claim as was done long ago by Microsoft over the Lindows OS.
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Harmony Gold isn't claiming breach of trademark, only copyright and contract.
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Yeah they had to do copyright to make breach of contract even possible.
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Personally, because of my dislike of lawyers and lawyerese I'm not going to get my hopes up, i'm just gonna cross my fingers and hope it all comes out fine. Whilst the information that's been found is at least promising, lets not count our chickens before they hatch ladies and gentlemen.
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Indeed.
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I guess my main point was this: to the layman they make look the same -- all of them. These look humanoid, those don't. Whatever. So none of it matters. Without samurai-inspired details of the head, a Gundam looks like any other. If it wasn't for manufacturer's icons on the front of the car, I wouldn't know that Infinity SUV or Nissan sedan from any other. Which I think was the whole point of Leonard French's video: how can you copyright this stuff unless it is overwhelmingly identical or a straight-up copy. Even the samurai motif of the Gundam can't be strictly taken as anyone can site inspiration from samurai armor.
Exactly. You can turn the layman jury argument around and say that since only detail-obsessed experts can even spot the differences, this amounts to a scenes a faire situation where the design isn't copyrightable to begin with. This is what was ruled regarding FASA's Elementals.
You could even go a small step further and argue that either the designs are sufficiently different to find the defenders are not infringing; or otherwise conclude that the original copyright has a scenes a faire problem as showcased by this very case.
Suddenly, it would be in HG's best interest to point out just how different the PGI/HBS/CGL designs are... >:D
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Harmony Gold isn't claiming breach of trademark, only copyright and contract.
And to happily reiterate, they later agreed they don't have claim on the copyright after all. :))
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Wish they would.. knowing HG even if they lose the license in 2021 they will still go after people who use anything close to that art knowing the little fish will fold right off.
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They've already acknowledged they don't have the copyright to the art (see the arbitration agreement and the end result of document 2003-A), at that point filing further lawsuits is arguably illegal - it'd be like me filing a suit claiming that you're in my house and should be evicted, even though I don't have a deed to your house.
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They've already acknowledged they don't have the copyright to the art (see the arbitration agreement and the end result of document 2003-A), at that point filing further lawsuits is arguably illegal - it'd be like me filing a suit claiming that you're in my house and should be evicted, even though I don't have a deed to your house.
That's not "illegal", it's just a hopeless case.
Here, the fact that HG seem to have agreed privately to Tatsunoko that they have no rights to the imagery in question may mark their lawsuit as frivolous, however.
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Nor is that document saying what you think it does.
It is possible to own distribution rights for material you don't actually own.
So it isn't an automatic win for anyone Harmony Gold decides to sue to point to that arbitration agreement and say Harmony Gold doesn't own the source images in question.
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lets not count our chickens before they hatch ladies and gentlemen.
Wow, my chickens just hatch more chickens. Yours hatch ladies and gentlemen?
There's a big difference between ownership and distribution rights, but this is not a "slam dunk" case. It comes down to legal technicalities, "intent", and all sorts of other nebulous terms which a jury may decide one way today, and another way tomorrow.
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Yeah, I realized that the arbitrator did find that HG did not abuse its license, which would presumably include previous lawsuits, so it's not the slam-dunk I thought it would be.
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aside from the recent Hasbro one though, all their lawsuits predated the japanese court ruling that showed who owned what.
HG acted in accordance with what they believed their license to include in past lawsuits. that they did not legally have rights to all of what Tatsunoko gave them isn't going to be held against them for those past suits, because HG couldn't know at the time.
who does own the rights in question is an important issue in the current lawsuit however, and HG's past ignorance is no longer a defense, since they have had not only time to understand the japanese ruling, but also have completed arbitration with tatsunoko to sort out who owns what in america.
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Battletech certainly isn't off the hook just yet but some of these tidbits of information that are becoming public certainly seems to point to Battletech's fight being a lot easier and more likely to go in Battletech's favor.
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aside from the recent Hasbro one though, all their lawsuits predated the japanese court ruling that showed who owned what.
HG acted in accordance with what they believed their license to include in past lawsuits. that they did not legally have rights to all of what Tatsunoko gave them isn't going to be held against them for those past suits, because HG couldn't know at the time.
who does own the rights in question is an important issue in the current lawsuit however, and HG's past ignorance is no longer a defense, since they have had not only time to understand the japanese ruling, but also have completed arbitration with tatsunoko to sort out who owns what in america.
They also, if you look at the review video, made an agreement in 2003 for 'all rights to macross except the in-japan merchandising and the 41 characters that big west owns full copyright to' since Tatsunoko no longer had that to offer them. That judgement was carried out in 2002, scroll back and see my comments on it and the list. In 2003 HGUSA and Tatsunoko signed that new agreement, referred to in the video as "2003-A" and knew at that point that they did not own the copyright to the macross mechs. That was never in a US court document until the August 2017 arbitration, which defined and spelled it out.
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If it was that cut and dry then Harmony Gold would have been forced to drop their suit by now as I'm certain the lawyers for Battletech are more than aware of that arbitration document by now.
So until we hear something new about the case we must continue to exercise patience and restraint.
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As near as I can tell, it is pretty straight-up as far as the "41 characters" go - rights to those were never included in the licensing, in any way. No distribution or anything else. I've seen the scans of the Japanese documents; I don't read it but they're pretty extensive in showing all the variations of the art of different mechs and characters.
On that note, if anyone CAN read Japanese, here's what folks have found.
http://www.courts.go.jp/app/hanrei_jp/detail7?id=12014
http://www.courts.go.jp/app/files/hanrei_jp/014/012014_option1.pdf
http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/
There's also this link, though you'll need to convert the animenewsnetwork.com to animenewsnetwork.cc in the linked URLs on that page; they've since changed their site address. "Tatsunoko Wins Macross Lawsuit" and "Macross Lawsuit" are the important news files. The appeal from Tatsunoko over the 41 characters was rejected, and there's a VERY extensive explanation of things that follow.
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google translate does a decent enough job translating the ruling pdf. Reading is so so but passable if you want to parse it more than once in certain sections.
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The macrossworld forum was very helpful too. Thanks for digging it up.
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google translate does a decent enough job translating the ruling pdf. Reading is so so but passable if you want to parse it more than once in certain sections.
News to me, never tried shoving a PDF into google translate. Didn't know it could do that. Cool!
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I didn't either until I clicked on the link and it showed up. I sure wish we had a new horse to beat on for awhile.. This ones been beaten pretty much to mush its just rehashing the same thing over and over :(
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Still though when I see an update that the case has been dismissed with prejudice* is when I will celebrate, not before.
*or some other favorable outcome for Battletech.
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Minor update on the arbitration case which is now over. https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd
APPLICATION to file document Certain Portions of Arbitration Award under seal filed by Petitioner Harmony Gold, USA, Inc..(Stebbins Bina, Jessica)
ORDER DENYING UNOPPOSED APPLICATION TO FILE UNDER SEAL CERTAIN PORTIONS OF ARBITRATION AWARD6 by Judge Percy Anderson: [T]he Court concludes that Petitioner has failed to make the required showing to justify sealing portions of the Arbitration Award, and its Application is therefore denied without prejudice. Please refer to the Court's order for additional information. (cr)
and finally
JUDGMENT CONFIRMING ARBITRATION AWARD by Judge Percy Anderson, Related to: Stipulation for Judgment,14 . IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED: That the Arbitration Award issued by the Independent Film & Television Alliance on June 28, 2017 in connection with the arbitration proceedings between Petitioner and Tatsunoko Production Co., Ltd., a true and correct copy of which is attached hereto as Exhibit A, is the Judgment of this Court. (MD JS-6, Case Terminated). (mrgo)
No update on the BattleTech case, and none likely for a long while by my guess. So beat the dead horse some more or just let the thread sink again.
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Minor update on the arbitration case which is now over. https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd
and finally
No update on the BattleTech case, and none likely for a long while by my guess. So beat the dead horse some more or just let the thread sink again.
So... Do i understand this correctly? Harmony Gold tried to have the results of the arbitration hidden away, but they were denied and the results of the arbitration are to be held correct and legal?
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Don't know, I wouldn't put it past them. Best to have a lawyer explain it. Could be a valid reason or could just be BS. I know there was a section that was redacted so who knows, we don't have access to the documents w/o someone with a pacer account paying for them. That would be the only way to really tell what they were after and why.
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So... Do i understand this correctly? Harmony Gold tried to have the results of the arbitration hidden away, but they were denied and the results of the arbitration are to be held correct and legal?
[T]he Court concludes that Petitioner has failed to make the required showing to justify sealing portions of the Arbitration Award, and its Application is therefore denied without prejudice.
Harmony Gold filed a motion to have some unspecified portion (oh would I love to know which one) of the award section of the arbitration's final filing sealed and secret. That request was denied, since there was no justifiable reason to seal it in the eyes of the judge. Basically, 'yep.'
There was one portion of the document that was redacted while discussing the current poor health of the head of Tatsunoko, and the lawyer who did the video analysis believes that the redacted portion likely further described his state of wellness. Definitely not anything we need to know about, if so.
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*nod*
It is interesting that they were trying to hide portions but not all of it(which is not the same as redacting a portion).
That may be the most damning implication of this matter versus Tatsunoko as far as the case against Battletech is concerned. That does suggest to me there is something in there that actually spells out something, something that we haven't seen, and Harmony Gold was trying to keep it from becoming public record.
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But does a redacted part really affect us? Just because we the public don't know what is said doesn't mean it wouldn't come up in discovery and could be raised in court, correct?
Assuming it is not in regards to an individual's health.
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Trying to get documents that a company considers to be confidential business information sealed isn't all that uncommon or sleazy. All the judge said was that they didn't give a good enough reason why parts of the document in question should be keept out of the public record, but if they do manage to come up with a good argument at a later time they can still get it sealed. Honestly, no company wants customer lists, sales figures, employee names, and a bunch of other stuff out there where anyone can look it up. I can't really fault HG for trying to keep the details off the public record.
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But does a redacted part really affect us? Just because we the public don't know what is said doesn't mean it wouldn't come up in discovery and could be raised in court, correct?
Assuming it is not in regards to an individual's health.
Sealing isn't the same as redacting.
As far as I can tell the judge is fine with them having redacted the portion they did but he's not okay with them keeping portions out of public record.
Trying to get documents that a company considers to be confidential business information sealed isn't all that uncommon or sleazy. All the judge said was that they didn't give a good enough reason why parts of the document in question should be keept out of the public record, but if they do manage to come up with a good argument at a later time they can still get it sealed. Honestly, no company wants customer lists, sales figures, employee names, and a bunch of other stuff out there where anyone can look it up. I can't really fault HG for trying to keep the details off the public record.
*nod*
I'm still not fully convinced this arbitration agreement is the smoking gun that many hope it is in terms of the Harmony Gold versus Battletech case but that they were trying to keep it out of public record does lead me to believe there is something in there that could prove more useful than what we already know for ending the current legal action in Battletech's favor.
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You're right; my bad. I wasn't reading carefully enough.
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I won't be surprised if Harmony Gold does amend the complaint again.
We also can't forget IMR/CGL are also being cited as a party to breaking the legally binding agreement signed in 1996.
I'll laugh my ass off then dance for joy if I get a jury summons for federal court though.
They screen for Bias and other things. I've been summoned for jury duty and something came up about prior knowledge of the incident. In my case, it was simply a passing comment from a gaming buddy who worked for the local paper at the time. Had a little discussion about that in a private room. If I wanted to, I could have used that as an excuse to get out of the process, but the issue was so vague that I really had no opinion on the matter. I still wasn't chosen, though.
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And as for a poor jury selection, well, both sides lawyers have a say in the selection process. And really, what PGI/HBS lawyers need to hammer away at is the arbitration agreement that HG has with Tatsunoko. IMHO it doesn't matter how close the artwork is, if it can be shown that HG doesn't have the rights to those designs.
Well, it wouldn't hurt to cite some other examples that may come close which HG never went after. I'm thinking of Reaper's CAV. Many CAVs have that symmetrical load-out with shoulder attachments. The Dictator comes readily to mind. And, then there's Dream Pod 9 with both Jovian Chronicles and Heavy Gear which field humanoid robots that carry hand-held guns like the Valkyrie.
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heavy gear may be the better choice.. since some of the CAV designs started (IIRC) as battletech fanart before becoming its own game and then being picked up by CAV. trying to explain that could muddle the water.
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heavy gear may be the better choice.. since some of the CAV designs started (IIRC) as battletech fanart before becoming its own game and then being picked up by CAV. trying to explain that could muddle the water.
Why would you have to explain the backstory? "Here's some other similar mecha designs from another company" is all you need.
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more a case of minimizing the chances for harmony gold to tear it apart with "but look, these designs were based on battletech's own infringing designs' version of the figure's history, and leaving reaper miniatures open to a followup suit from HG.
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Using that logic doesn't really fly if they were based on the Phoenix designs which have never been challenged.
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Keep in mind the judge denied the motion to seal part of the record without prejudice, which means he's basically saying "Your reasoning as to why you want this sealed so far doesn't hold water, but if you come back to me with an argument as to why it should be that I find compelling, I may allow it."
Without prejudice means they can refile again with an updated argument.
With prejudice would mean they couldn't refile again, which we don't have in this instance.
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True.
I know it is unlikely for the case against Battletech resolved soon but I do hope it is so we can finally put all this behind us.
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I'm more impatient for this to be over so we can get the new minis.
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Keep in mind the judge denied the motion to seal part of the record without prejudice, which means he's basically saying "Your reasoning as to why you want this sealed so far doesn't hold water, but if you come back to me with an argument as to why it should be that I find compelling, I may allow it."
Without prejudice means they can refile again with an updated argument.
With prejudice would mean they couldn't refile again, which we don't have in this instance.
I am not saying its the case, but I personally would be really suspicious if the statements referring to the "41 characters" was what HG was trying to get sealed" IE the acknowledgement that their license does NOT include them (as ruled by the Japanese courts) because as far as I can tell that is what they keep getting all sue happy over, IE suing people over use of or artwork inspired by stuff that isn't theirs and they have KNOWN was not included in their license since 2003 (if not before)
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I'll repeat myself again, you can distribute something you don't own as long as you have the right agreements in place and you can copyright the material yourself as a means to protect said distribution rights.
It is how pretty much the entire publishing business actually works these days, especially when bringing foreign material to America.
So that Harmony Gold doesn't actually own the 41 characters is not a smoking gun as far as the case against Battletech goes. The arbitration agreement and the amendments do create some interesting implications about if Harmony Gold does have the correct deals in place to have made the copyrights they did but nothing in the publicly available portions of the arbitration agreement clearly says so.
Now to be fair we haven't seen the entirety of the document and it is possible we never will. So don't get me wrong, I do suspect there is something in there that does spell out something Harmony Gold doesn't want to get out and I would not be surprised if it would help Battletech's case.
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Being sealed isn't really a huge barrier to a document being used in another court case. If you have reason to believe that a sealed document contains pertinent information to a case you are involved in, you are more than welcome to request access to review it. It might not be granted, or it may have to remain sealed if entered onto the docket for your case, but it isn't locked in a magical vault where no one can see it without first defeating an evil wizard ^-^
I've been pushing our clients for more evil-wizard-based security processes, but I'm just not getting any traction yet!
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It is that extra hurdle though that is giving me pause, especially since the request can be denied.
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I'm more impatient for this to be over so we can get the new minis.
Quite understandable, but this is likely to be a very slow process.
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Well, from the 'What's up with Catalyst' it's good to know that they're not worried.
As for pointing out other Mecha and games with them, I know most are from Japan, but many video games would be relevant for Piranha. Chrome Hounds, Front Mission, Armored Core, Gungriffin Blaze, Steel Legion and many Gundam derived games would be pertinent to show that Warrior Robots are very profuse. Heck, some of the customization options in in Front Mission and Armored Core allow you to do rough analogues of some of the Macross designs. Giza body and legs with Gust (or equivalent) symetrical gun arms was one of my favorite builds in Front Mission 4 because it reminded me of a Warhammer. :D
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"Billy did it too!" is not a valid legal defense. Robotech and BattleTech have a particular history that makes comparisons to other properties less compelling.
There's no need to bump this thread. When there is news, I will update it.
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When there is news, I will update it.
As should anyone else that finds something new. We're all eager to hear new news.
(Obligatory [drool] )
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Right now the thread over at the MWO forums has gone silent and the thread over at HBS has devolved into meme wars and jokes for the most part. I doubt we will get anything new for a few months or more.
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MWO gone silent? why?
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MWO gone silent? why?
On the subject of the lawsuit (only). Probably because of the lack of news.
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Don't know. Last post was on the 31st of Aug and its not locked. Nothing new with the case and bored with talking about Robotech... Usual reasons threads die out.
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None of the companies involved has issued any formal news on the lawsuit, beyond "we're not talking about it." All have continued to discuss other business matters, such as new products. I am sure that once the case starts to move forward again, discussion will pick back up.
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*nod*
I do find it curious that we still haven't seen Harmony Gold file for any restraining orders. At least as far as I can tell.
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*nod*
I do find it curious that we still haven't seen Harmony Gold file for any restraining orders. At least as far as I can tell.
Those would be "cease and desist" orders, and they are not common in these cases. It appears that HG used one in the Jetfire case due to time-critical nature of that case.
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"Billy did it too!" is not a valid legal defense. Robotech and BattleTech have a particular history that makes comparisons to other properties less compelling.
Uh, that's not the idea behind that suggestion. Remember my recommendation for pointing out how other 'warrior robots' have very similar characteristics which can't rightly be owned? I was just expanding the list of examples to include those in electronic media, since that's where PGI does its work.
Let's go over a few that I find to be common -
1) Frames tend to be humanoid, avian (reverse-jointed knees), or even mamalian (quad), or insectoid (something with more than 4 visible limbs, including centauroid, I guess.)
2) Symetric weapons layout is a common theme that logically follows the notion of redundancy in military hardware.
3) Guns for arms speaks to the efficiency of treating those arms like fancy turrets.
4) Modular overhead or over-shoulder attachment pods/weapons.
I've seen all of these in video games just as much as on table-top, or cartoons/animation/graphic novels.
And, in the case of many of the Macross designs, those are features they're using to distinguish their claims, especially when you look at the diagrams for the Tomahawk.
I find it ironic that they're putting up the most effort on that one. In their vaunted show, it's only a token trooper unit which never sees much in the way of story action. The hero units are the very humanoid Valkyrie which see pretty much all the face time, and yet they don't go into diagramming them to the same degree as the 'Tommy'.
There's no need to bump this thread. When there is news, I will update it.
I thought this was a thread for discussion, not strictly news updates. I highly recommend a stickied thread strictly for news updates on the matter with the relevant information.
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Those would be "cease and desist" orders, and they are not common in these cases. It appears that HG used one in the Jetfire case due to time-critical nature of that case.
I have actually heard of restraining orders in such cases being issued.
It does seem likely Harmony Gold isn't trying for one based on the idea that they can ask for more damages but that they have not used either tool does give the Battletech lawyers some extra arguments to make.
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Uh, that's not the idea behind that suggestion.
No, no, you misunderstand. See my last line again: "Robotech and BattleTech have a particular history that makes comparisons to other properties less compelling." Because BattleTech once used mecha designs from Macross, Harmony Gold has a better case for claiming infringement since there is a pre-existing connection. A game like CAV may be based on the same sort of mecha, but since it never used actual anime designs, it's harder for HG to claim derivative infringement. If HBS/PGI/IMR try to present other games' designs as evidence, HG can make an argument that such outside examples are irrelevant since there is no direct connection to Macross. Or HG can claim to have not known of other infringing properties, and bring a lawsuit against Reaper; HG isn't in the game industry, so they could argue that they couldn't be expected to keep track of every company within it.
I thought this was a thread for discussion, not strictly news updates. I highly recommend a stickied thread strictly for news updates on the matter with the relevant information.
Again, you misunderstand. I was merely replying to someone asking why this thread hasn't seen much activity lately. I am not a moderator to tell people what they can and cannot post.
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And the lack of discussion is mostly due to having already beat the dead horse into ground beef. I would love to have something new to show up... Someone shapeshift into a fly and go check out the lawyers offices lol
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(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17cdxp5og9defjpg/original.jpg)
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Uh, that's not the idea behind that suggestion. Remember my recommendation for pointing out how other 'warrior robots' have very similar characteristics which can't rightly be owned? I was just expanding the list of examples to include those in electronic media, since that's where PGI does its work.
Let's go over a few that I find to be common -
1) Frames tend to be humanoid, avian (reverse-jointed knees), or even mamalian (quad), or insectoid (something with more than 4 visible limbs, including centauroid, I guess.)
2) Symetric weapons layout is a common theme that logically follows the notion of redundancy in military hardware.
3) Guns for arms speaks to the efficiency of treating those arms like fancy turrets.
4) Modular overhead or over-shoulder attachment pods/weapons.
I've seen all of these in video games just as much as on table-top, or cartoons/animation/graphic novels.
And, in the case of many of the Macross designs, those are features they're using to distinguish their claims, especially when you look at the diagrams for the Tomahawk.
I find it ironic that they're putting up the most effort on that one. In their vaunted show, it's only a token trooper unit which never sees much in the way of story action. The hero units are the very humanoid Valkyrie which see pretty much all the face time, and yet they don't go into diagramming them to the same degree as the 'Tommy'.
I thought this was a thread for discussion, not strictly news updates. I highly recommend a stickied thread strictly for news updates on the matter with the relevant information.
I wonder if that is due to the fact that in several instances the warhammer battlemech was the face of the box sets and main rule sets that I recall from the past.
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Something new that's at most coincidental and at least a little interesting.
http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-jason-fuchs-writer/
It's news of SOME kind of progress (not much) on the Robotech movie, but what I noticed is that the artwork displayed is Southern Cross and Mospeada, not the Macross stuff. Implication Sony's shifting away from that series and towards the later years, or just 'what happened to be available' as far as publicity pics?
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possible, it would make sense, given the results of the Arbitration. i suspect HG knew the general details of what they didn't actually own, and the arbitration was to sort out the specifics.
that said, the art in that article is drawn from relatively recent HG products and part of their standard publicity images, so i doubt it is actually indicative of the actual focus of the film.
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No, no, you misunderstand.
[nod]Okay.
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possible, it would make sense, given the results of the Arbitration. i suspect HG knew the general details of what they didn't actually own, and the arbitration was to sort out the specifics.
that said, the art in that article is drawn from relatively recent HG products and part of their standard publicity images, so i doubt it is actually indicative of the actual focus of the film.
the HG vs T corp arbitration? From my understanding is had nothing to do with ownership of products, but was exclusively about royalties, IE T corp claimed that hg wasn't giving them all the royalties revenue they were due, HG said they were, and the arbitration seemed to agree with HG on that point. However HG did acknowledge that they did not have ownership of the 41 characters and knew about it since at least 2003 because big west owns them not T corp
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possible, it would make sense, given the results of the Arbitration. i suspect HG knew the general details of what they didn't actually own, and the arbitration was to sort out the specifics.
that said, the art in that article is drawn from relatively recent HG products and part of their standard publicity images, so i doubt it is actually indicative of the actual focus of the film.
Given that it's from probably the least popular of the three parts, one would hope not.
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possible, it would make sense, given the results of the Arbitration. i suspect HG knew the general details of what they didn't actually own, and the arbitration was to sort out the specifics.
that said, the art in that article is drawn from relatively recent HG products and part of their standard publicity images, so i doubt it is actually indicative of the actual focus of the film.
Something new that's at most coincidental and at least a little interesting.
http://screenrant.com/robotech-live-action-movie-jason-fuchs-writer/
It's news of SOME kind of progress (not much) on the Robotech movie, but what I noticed is that the artwork displayed is Southern Cross and Mospeada, not the Macross stuff. Implication Sony's shifting away from that series and towards the later years, or just 'what happened to be available' as far as publicity pics?
Not likely. A few things
Production on Robotech will reportedly not begin until after Muschietti has finished making IT: Chapter Two, the sequel to his blockbuster horror movie IT
This tells me it will be a minimum of 2-3 years before we see a Robotech film ready for release, probably 4 since there isn't even an entry at imdb for an IT sequel.
The second issue here is
Fuchs and Muschietti will reportedly create their Robotech from scratch.
This means it won't be anything like the anime is appearance. So, Macross it is with an entirely new look, or perhaps an entirely new story as well. In order to do Macross they would have to license the designs from Big West same as Warner Brothers did awhile back. Of the 3 stories Macross is the most popular. So if we do see a Robotech movie HG will be cutting it very close to when their license expires in 2021.
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we might see a mashup.. macross type storyline, but using visuals a bit more like New Generation and Southern Cross.. best of all worlds, from a licensing view. no worry over stepping on Studio Nue's toes, but has just enough similarity to the Shadow Chronicles and other animated robotech spinoffs HG has continually tried to make.
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This means it won't be anything like the anime is appearance. So, Macross it is with an entirely new look, or perhaps an entirely new story as well. In order to do Macross they would have to license the designs from Big West same as Warner Brothers did awhile back. Of the 3 stories Macross is the most popular. So if we do see a Robotech movie HG will be cutting it very close to when their license expires in 2021.
What did Warner Brother license them for?
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Not likely. A few thingsThis tells me it will be a minimum of 2-3 years before we see a Robotech film ready for release, probably 4 since there isn't even an entry at imdb for an IT sequel.
That's a key point. I was trying to figure out how long it would take to go from writer to film. Once you figure in casting, concept design, 3D modeling... I know Hollywood can pump out a lot of films quickly, but not THAT quickly. And after the dismal performance of the industry this summer, I can't imagine Sony wanting to play fast and loose with something that will cost this much money. Well... maybe...
I think it underlines the hypothesis that HG is aiming for a settlement here and financial compensation rather than an actual judgement in court.
Questions:
With the 2021 deadline, does that mean everything with Robotech goes away or just the ability to use the old footage from Macross and designs? I don't think that was answered anywhere. How does that affect new material or the "original" concepts HG came up with adapting Robotech?
With it being decided that Tatsunoko did not have the rights to the 41 original images and therefore not being able to extend it to HG, what does that mean for things such as toys and other forms outside the anime?
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With the 2021 deadline, does that mean everything with Robotech goes away or just the ability to use the old footage from Macross and designs? I don't think that was answered anywhere. How does that affect new material or the "original" concepts HG came up with adapting Robotech?
With it being decided that Tatsunoko did not have the rights to the 41 original images and therefore not being able to extend it to HG, what does that mean for things such as toys and other forms outside the anime?
As I understand it...they lose the rights for everything that isn't RoboTech.
So...they keep the character names, but not their likenesses. They keep the Robotech story but can't use the Macross footage.They apparently don't have the rights to the Mecha anyway so any movie would likely redesign the Veritechs. Sony would probably do that anyway.
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
(http://crayfisher.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/ironymeter2.gif)
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
Its as if millions of new voices cried out in pain then suddenly vanished.
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
They sort of done that, some of the Robotech Expeditionary Force (REF) where all the the 2nd Generation Destroids were completely redesigned from the old Robotech II Mech designs they had, over the years.
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
Well...I suppose they could negotiate to extend the rights, but again my understanding is that HG has had a falling out and that its considered unlikely.
It does mean the Macross license might be up for grabs should any entreprising company want to produce a miniature wargame ;)
However, my own feeling is that even if I were right, Sony would simply use different Mechs. It wouldn't be too difficult to produce new designs or set RoboTech in a different era or area where the Macross designs aren't available or common. The big attraction would be the franchise name...but then again, the problem is that for many, those Mechs ARE RoboTech.
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i hadn't heard of a Tatsunoko/HG falling out.. just that HG and Studio Nue/Big West have had one.
IIRC the arbitration did reveal that Hg would have to renegotiate once the current liscense ends. but i have no doubt they could get a new contract. it just would prevent them from claiming ownership of those "41 characters" and making original products using them. but they should be able to continue using the macross portion of the show as part of robotech.
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I doubt if they did get a new license it would include the same rights as the old one. But, as shady as HG is I doubt they would stop claiming said rights even if they didn't get a new license or renewed their current one.
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....all of which likely means that Robotech will have its own "unseen" problem after 2021.
Not really. They can just move on past "old obsoleted hardware" and issue all new things. Matter of fact, things like the Robotech Expeditionary Force Marines book have given a whole pile of new art and designs to work with; one thing you can't say about Palladium Books is that they don't have good art. Long's work, now Walton's, there's a lot of quality going into that. The mecha designs are pretty solid as well, I really dig their new Zentraedi pods. Certainly there's a lot of reuse of elements, but it's definitely new designs.
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Not really. They can just move on past "old obsoleted hardware" and issue all new things. Matter of fact, things like the Robotech Expeditionary Force Marines book have given a whole pile of new art and designs to work with; one thing you can't say about Palladium Books is that they don't have good art. Long's work, now Walton's, there's a lot of quality going into that. The mecha designs are pretty solid as well, I really dig their new Zentraedi pods. Certainly there's a lot of reuse of elements, but it's definitely new designs.
However, this may hurt their case over Battletech, since they are suing over the old Macross designs.
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However, this may hurt their case over Battletech, since they are suing over the old Macross designs.
If the case lasts for four years.
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If the case lasts for four years.
I am not sure it even needs to wait 4 years, the way I read the arbitration judgement, HG acknowledged that they knew that they have not had the rights to the 41 chars since 2003, which IMO hurts their case since that means they are suing claiming infringement on stuff they do not and really never have owned or licensed.
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I am not sure it even needs to wait 4 years, the way I read the arbitration judgement, HG acknowledged that they knew that they have not had the rights to the 41 chars since 2003, which IMO hurts their case since that means they are suing claiming infringement on stuff they do not and really never have owned or licensed.
Maybe. The arbitrator did rule that their previous court actions related to the Macross/Robotech copyrights and trademarks were justifiable.
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And people are still misconstruing why/what Harmony Gold is suing Tatsunoko over. They are not suing over ownership or any IP rights of any sort. They are suing Tatsunoko saying that Tatsunoko hasn't paid them some money they were owed as per the Arbitration Agreement.
Also the Arbitration Agreement even with the 2003 Amendment does not actually spell out anything that actually weakens Harmony Gold's case, at least in the publicly verifiable sections released so far. It certainly casts some interesting implications but doesn't actually spell out that Harmony Gold doesn't have the distribution rights and as I've said multiple times you can have the distribution rights to stuff you don't actually own and at least in the US you can use copyright to protect such rights.
So if it were the smoking gun people hope it is then the lawyers for Battletech would have already used it to get the case dismissed as their research teams should have found it long before now since I see nothing in the Arbitration Agreement that would make it difficult for a legal researcher to find/get a copy of.
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And people are still misconstruing why/what Harmony Gold is suing Tatsunoko over. They are not suing over ownership or any IP rights of any sort. They are suing Tatsunoko saying that Tatsunoko hasn't paid them some money they were owed as per the Arbitration Agreement.
Also the Arbitration Agreement even with the 2003 Amendment does not actually spell out anything that actually weakens Harmony Gold's case, at least in the publicly verifiable sections released so far. It certainly casts some interesting implications but doesn't actually spell out that Harmony Gold doesn't have the distribution rights and as I've said multiple times you can have the distribution rights to stuff you don't actually own and at least in the US you can use copyright to protect such rights.
So if it were the smoking gun people hope it is then the lawyers for Battletech would have already used it to get the case dismissed as their research teams should have found it long before now since I see nothing in the Arbitration Agreement that would make it difficult for a legal researcher to find/get a copy of.
I think you got the money dispute backwards.
Tatsunoko started a law suit against HG saying that HG hadn't paid them the total royalties they were due, HG said yes we did, and the arbitrator agreed with HG because Tatsunoko was effectively trying to claim they owed twice on some product sold through hg's web site, IE when HG bought/imported the stuff, and again when it was actually sold to end users, they were also trying to get monies based on electronic exploitation by claiming they owed for video, vhs, dvd, broadcast showing etc. which HG pointed out they had never charged for and were aware HG had been profiting for in the past.
the Arbitrator in what I saw essentially agreed that HG was more in the right than Tatsunoko regarding those aspects but reiterated that the 2003 renewal/ reissue of the distribution rights specifically that HG had from Tatsunoko specifically excluded the 41 characters because Tatsunoko as determined by the Japanese courts DID NOT Own those rights to license them to HG.
which means that the arbitration specifically acknowledges that the 41 are NOT part of HG's inherited distribution rights from Tatsunoko something that has to the best of my knowledge NOT been specifically acknowledged in US courts previously, because the US courts hadn't had that ruling from the Japanese courts brought into evidence.
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the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.
while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.
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I think you got the money dispute backwards.
Tatsunoko started a law suit against HG saying that HG hadn't paid them the total royalties they were due, HG said yes we did, and the arbitrator agreed with HG because Tatsunoko was effectively trying to claim they owed twice on some product sold through hg's web site, IE when HG bought/imported the stuff, and again when it was actually sold to end users, they were also trying to get monies based on electronic exploitation by claiming they owed for video, vhs, dvd, broadcast showing etc. which HG pointed out they had never charged for and were aware HG had been profiting for in the past.
the Arbitrator in what I saw essentially agreed that HG was more in the right than Tatsunoko regarding those aspects but reiterated that the 2003 renewal/ reissue of the distribution rights specifically that HG had from Tatsunoko specifically excluded the 41 characters because Tatsunoko as determined by the Japanese courts DID NOT Own those rights to license them to HG.
which means that the arbitration specifically acknowledges that the 41 are NOT part of HG's inherited distribution rights from Tatsunoko something that has to the best of my knowledge NOT been specifically acknowledged in US courts previously, because the US courts hadn't had that ruling from the Japanese courts brought into evidence.
I see the problem now. You're referencing the events that led up to the Arbitration Agreement while I'm referring to the current action to actually uphold the arbitration agreement.
Harmony Gold is the Plantiff in the current case versus Tatsunoko to uphold the Arbitration Agreement.
Tatsunoko has not paid all the arbitration fees according to Harmony Gold, which was part of the Arbitration Agreement.
The Amendment for 2003 determined all rights except the actual ownership of the original 41 characters were owned by Tatsunoko. Unless there is another section containing more information this does mean distribution rights were retained with Tatsunoko(because distribution rights are separate from ownership) and thus Harmony Gold does have them.
the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.
while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.
The implications of the Arbitration Agreement that are publicly viewable are certainly interesting but I do not think it is as helpful for Battletech as we all hope for.
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Right now with what came out in Arbitration between HG and Tatsunoku, i am amused that Harmony Gold might have to have thier own Project Phoenix in 2021 if they hope to keep Robotech relevant
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the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.
while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.
I think it should have little bearing. I believe the main point of the case, and why it is based around all companies in contact with Jordan Weismann, is that [they feel] the original Unseen legal settlement was breached. That's why they highlighted posts/tweets from CGL stating they worked with JW on whatever design (my memory fails me on the specifics from the documents).
"Yes your honor, we admit we do not have the rights to those characters, but we do have a binding legal agreement forbidding Mr. Weismann's use of those characters regardless."
[edited to clarify text as opinion rather than fact.]
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Right now with what came out in Arbitration between HG and Tatsunoku, i am amused that Harmony Gold might have to have thier own Project Phoenix in 2021 if they hope to keep Robotech relevant
See previous. They've been. Google "Chuck Walton Robotech" to see.
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Allot of bad info on FB right now regarding the HG vs Tatsunoku settlements thanks to bad info/misunderstanding on Reddit.
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Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now? ;D
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Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now? ;D
I have complete faith in the ability and willingness of internet companies to ensure that no lies make it through to the world wide web.
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Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now? ;D
It is the Facebook logo. ;)
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It's more of a misunderstanding that's snowballed. A few people are trying to spell out what the settlement actually means but they are drowned out by all the celebratory post.
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*nod*
The Arbitration Agreement certainly implies a lot in what we can view but ultimately it seems to not be a smoking gun or even really all that helpful for Battletech from everything I've been able to parse through.
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Yes, the reality is catching up with the FB group and everyone who was screaming victory are now super depressed.
Why I'm trying to keep one step back from the subject.
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Anybody got a PACER account?
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd
It says most recent update was yesterday (though that may not mean new info) but there's a judge's stamp on it all with confirmation of the Arbitration. Might be interesting to read and see if there's any new details to suss out.
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See previous. They've been. Google "Chuck Walton Robotech" to see.
The problem they hafve is that when most people say "Robotech" they're really thinking of "Macross" which was by far themost popular part, and the one part that HG really can't touch as a new film.
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Anybody got a PACER account?
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd
It says most recent update was yesterday (though that may not mean new info) but there's a judge's stamp on it all with confirmation of the Arbitration. Might be interesting to read and see if there's any new details to suss out.
I don't but from what I am able to sort out it looks like the Judge has decided that the Arbitration Agreement is to be upheld.
Which all I can determine at this time means Tatsunoko has to pay up some arbitration fees.
Either way looks like the case is closed and has been since the 23rd of August.
[edit]
The most interesting part is there doesn't seem to be a seal on the Arbitration Award at all now. So it may be possible to see the full Arbitration Agreement.
[/edit]
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in case some one missed this
http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372
all this talk should be moot in 5 years or so
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in case some one missed this
http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372
all this talk should be moot in 5 years or so
Why I guess HG is coming after everyone now, it's possibly their last chance to cash on Macross fan base.
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I don't but from what I am able to sort out it looks like the Judge has decided that the Arbitration Agreement is to be upheld.
Which all I can determine at this time means Tatsunoko has to pay up some arbitration fees.
Either way looks like the case is closed and has been since the 23rd of August.
[edit]
The most interesting part is there doesn't seem to be a seal on the Arbitration Award at all now. So it may be possible to see the full Arbitration Agreement.
[/edit]
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Here is the *very* interesting part.
Also as a result of the Big West litigation, Tatsunoko asked Harmony Gold to protect Macross trademarks outside of Japan, and agreed that Harmony Gold could deduct legal fees from royalties paid to Tatsunoko.
If this is correct it could be the SINGLE biggest reason HG is so much of a copyright troll. Sue all you want and in the end it doesn't cost you anything. Plus the added bonus of a big payday if they settle!
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Here is the *very* interesting part.
If this is correct it could be the SINGLE biggest reason HG is so much of a copyright troll. Sue all you want and in the end it doesn't cost you anything. Plus the added bonus of a big payday if they settle!
Where did you pull this from?
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372 toward the bottom near the law360 and reddit links
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https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20170830639
Found this:
Thus, pursuant to the 2003-A Respondent granted to Claimant all its remaining rights in Macross, including derivative and sequel rights but naturally excluding any right to create derivative works using the 41 original character from Macross program which now belonged to Big West. The seeming inexactitude language regarding the 41 original characters may have been in artfully drawn but was intended to track the decision in the Big West litigation so that Licensor was giving up everything it owned.*
c. The 2003-A is valid and binding on Respondent, and Claimant has been granted therein all of Respondent's copyright rights in Macross, except for the visual depiction of the original 41 animated graphic characters from the underlying Program, pursuant thereto;
And a judge signed off on that. Also a reminder, just what are the 41 original characters?
http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/http://www.macross.co.jp/contents/index.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/http://www.macross.co.jp/contents/index.html)
Various marks and modes of VF-1 Valkyries, Destroids, Battle Pods, and the major characters.
Looking at that, it certainly seems to come back to "Tatsunoko never had the rights and knew it" - see the language of the 2003 agreement, which came after the 2002 decision for Big West and as stated, "tracked the decision" so that Tatsunoko knew what rights it did and did not have and therefore could and could not give to Harmony Gold. HG's claims of copyright over the artwork for those mechs are, based on that, invalid unless they happen to have an agreement with Big West, which has never been suggested or shown. All legal claims were based on Tatsunoko's rights as licensor, so you can see where the surge in hope for the HG v HBS/PGI/CGL suit is coming from.
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Wouldn't that effect CGL as well since FASA got it's unseen art from them as well?
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The part that has my attention right now is this section:
This substantial victory for Respondent still left it in breach of its representations and warranties to Claimant in the Operative Agreements (as to the visual depiction of the 41 characters) wherein it had represented that the rights granted would not infringe in any way upon the rights of third parties.
If I'm understanding that right I think we do indeed have a smoking gun after all.
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Wouldn't that effect CGL as well since FASA got it's unseen art from them as well?
FASA art came from an importer that picked up the rights (via a model kit license) from Studio Nue, IIRC.
i wouldn't use the old FASA connection since there was a lot of sketchiness around whether that importer even had the right to license out the images (they had the rights to plastic models, and sadly the company went incommunicado well before the old FASA/HG lawsuit, so we're not exactly sure what their license allowed.)
if FASA had gotten their license for the art from Tatsunoko, we'd never have had the unseen mess when we did.
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SidAlpha has an update video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Z3-y0mr00&feature=share
Piranha Games has filed a motion to dismiss with prejudice, on the grounds that Harmony Gold does not own the copyrights in question.
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Well we have known for a while now that was part of the defense strategy.
Here's hoping that the shots land and score a critical hit so we can be done with this mess once and for all.
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In full agreement here.
Because if Piranha's motion works, I'd imagine so would everyone elses.
Keeping good thoughts about this...
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There are two possible complications for this motion that mean we shouldn't celebrate just yet.
1: While they may not own the actual designs it does seem pretty clear from the Arbitration Agreement that they do own the distribution rights for them and thus can still make claims for infringement on those rights without having to bring a new case.
2: Jordan did sign a legally binding agreement that can give a foundation upon which to make a case irrespective of what rights Harmony Gold actually has.
I did find a link to at least part of the Arbitration Agreement a while back and I do remember it was not the smoking gun we've been hoping for but certainly could be helpful to CGL's case.
So ultimately I do think we may have a favorable outcome and perhaps sooner rather than later. Of course in the real world legal system that may still mean sometime in 2018.
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Fingers crossed this all works out.
If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?
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If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?
No idea. It all comes down to what the judge decides.
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No idea. It all comes down to what the judge decides.
*nod*
That is the wild card more than anything else. It would certainly make it easier for HBS, PGI, and CGL to tell Harmony Gold to go sit in a corner and think about what they did.
Which is another major issue. I am not sure if there was a joint defense agreement entered so if this motion is granted it may not automatically mean dismissal for HBS and CGL as well. Would certainly make it a lot easier for them to get everything dismissed though.
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If the judge grants Piranha the motion, there's virtually nothing stopping the same for the rest. Like Sid says, they're probably just going to wait and see how it plays out, and not duplicate effort prematurely in case the judge decides not to agree with PGI's motion.
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True enough and I feel a bit optimistic. With the holiday season though the judge probably won't make a ruling for a while.
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Is this Sid Alpha the same guy who was linked to before?
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I've had my share of beefs with CGL lately, but I am still angry at just how awful Harmony Gold is being here. The "nuSeen" are supposed to be a break with the old anime visuals, finally putting that entire sordid chapter in the past, but HG just can't pass up the chance to be terrible one last time.
Is this Sid Alpha the same guy who was linked to before?
Yes, I linked to him and Leonard French.
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So ultimately I do think we may have a favorable outcome and perhaps sooner rather than later. Of course in the real world legal system that may still mean sometime in 2018.
My only other question is this: If the motion is accepted and HG is finally given the legal pantsing it so richly deserves, is this a "stake through Dracula's heart, the Dragon is dead, Palpatine's going down the reactor shaft, the Soviets are waving flags from the Reichstag" kind of final, or could they appeal or otherwise throw a last spanner in the works?
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My only other question is this: If the motion is accepted and HG is finally given the legal pantsing it so richly deserves, is this a "stake through Dracula's heart, the Dragon is dead, Palpatine's going down the reactor shaft, the Soviets are waving flags from the Reichstag" kind of final, or could they appeal or otherwise throw a last spanner in the works?
They can always appeal up the chain, but unless the judge makes a serious error it's unlikely to be reversed.
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The only possible hitch is that the judge does decide the breach of contract can stand on it's own. Which is an admitted possibility as everything I can find does say Harmony Gold does have the distribution rights and those could be sufficient to carry the breach of contract separately.
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They can appeal, at the moment - but there's a careful term in the PGI motion, "with prejudice." This means that IF* the judge agrees, and uses that term in his decision, it's over. No further injunctions based on this claim can be made, which would mean that Harmony Gold cannot try suing PGI again for this. It's basically a way to stop frivolous repeat suits from being filed, it's an automatic rejection of any further attempts to bring it up in court. Think of it as the legal equivalent of "You get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!"
*And just to reiterate what doesn't need to be, that's IF. It's up to the wizard** at this point.
**He wears a black robe to work, speaks a strange language that binds us all, and his declaration cannot be challenged. Wizard.
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They can appeal, at the moment - but there's a careful term in the PGI motion, "with prejudice." This means that IF* the judge agrees, and uses that term in his decision, it's over. No further injunctions based on this claim can be made, which would mean that Harmony Gold cannot try suing PGI again for this. It's basically a way to stop frivolous repeat suits from being filed, it's an automatic rejection of any further attempts to bring it up in court. Think of it as the legal equivalent of "You get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!"
I believe that it's worse then that, if the judge dismisses it with prejudice I'm pretty sure if HG sues PGI again that PGI can sue HG back, not sure about other BT rights holders but.
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So here's my question. If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen? Could their likeness be used again in official art? Could players use their original minis in official games? Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?
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So here's my question. If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen? Could their likeness be used again in official art? Could players use their original minis in official games? Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?
I would assume CGL will keep their "only in-house art" stance regardless.
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I would assume CGL will keep their "only in-house art" stance regardless.
Safer that way, period.
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Safer that way, period.
If CGL had piggy-backed on PGI's art as HBS as done, HG would only have had a single target for their lawsuit. Instead, because CGL chose to go it alone, the legal defense is spread across multiple entities who may have to defend their art on a case-by-case basis. I'm not convinced CGL commissioning their own versions was the best move. Only time will tell.
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If CGL had piggy-backed on PGI's art as HBS as done, HG would only have had a single target for their lawsuit. Instead, because CGL chose to go it alone, the legal defense is spread across multiple entities who may have to defend their art on a case-by-case basis. I'm not convinced CGL commissioning their own versions was the best move. Only time will tell.
I'd say it could of been as complicated because of the split of electronic and table-top rights the BT IP has. While there could be cooperation between both sides, it really depends on how the rights for each side are as well.
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Fingers crossed this all works out.
If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?
That is my thinking thinking as well. Sure I'm only an armchair lawyer, basing most of my Law Knowledge comes from watching people's Court and Judge Judy, but even watching those shows the times I see contracts cases upon which the main thrust of the argument is in some way Person A did not have the right to sell Person B some item (often a car), then the only recourse is to make the parties whole and put them back in the position they were in before the contract was made.
So, again my 'arm-chair lawyering' would see this the 1996 agreement is rendered Null and Void, as Weisman cannot grant full standing to HG something HG did not have access to, nor apparently Weisman.
Just like I cannot say Colbosh has full rights to use the 2004 D&D artwork, and I will cease to use it.
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So here's my question. If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen? Could their likeness be used again in official art? Could players use their original minis in official games? Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?
Big West still has the rights and a deal would have to be struck with them and Harmony Gold still owns distribution rights so they would have to technically be included too.
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Safer that way, period.
Aff, lets not try our luck any more.
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Just some random thoughts.
Remembering things from school, if this case does go through in PGI's/HBS' favor, it would take precedence over any previous cases if they were brought up. However, it can't actually remove what happened in the FASA days, but amend it.
So it could effectively prevent Harmony Gold from doing this crap again. If I was PGI/HBS, if I won, I would just leave it at that and continue on my merry way.
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Just some random thoughts.
Remembering things from school, if this case does go through in PGI's/HBS' favor, it would take precedence over any previous cases if they were brought up. However, it can't actually remove what happened in the FASA days, but amend it.
So it could effectively prevent Harmony Gold from doing this crap again. If I was PGI/HBS, if I won, I would just leave it at that and continue on my merry way.
Does what happened with FASA even matter? Wasn't it settled out of court?
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It was settled out of court but the contract that Jordan signed is still legally binding and court enforceable. As such it is a possibility that the judge can decide that the breach of contract portion of the case can go forward separately.
I however consider that unlikely as so much of it does hinge on the copyright infringement portion of the case.
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Does what happened with FASA even matter? Wasn't it settled out of court?
you can make arguments both ways, the problem is that as I understand it, part of the issue is that that happened before the decisions in japan on actual ownership of the 41 characters occurred.
while in hindsight the reality is that the whole "HG case" was in fact based on IMO a frivolous lawsuit they had no legal standing, at the time they though that they did because T corp sold/ gave them "Rights" that they didn't actually have. kind of like me deciding to sell you my neighbors vehicle because they allowed me to borrow it, and I decided that meant I could dispose of it as well. the other issue is that at the time HG had a lot of liquid cash, and FASA had a lot less money, so they settled rather than throwing away MORE money they didn't really have to further enrich the lawyers.
in summary at a certain level it all comes down to standing which is the legalese way of saying "by what grounds do you claim this is relevant, and that it concerns you.
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I wonder if this move will work. I don't thing HG will let case get dismiss and one of their revenue sources get blow up.
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I think you overestimate Harmony Gold in a couple ways there.
Robotech/Macross is actually a fairly small revenue stream for them. So if it gets blown up it won't hurt them that much.
They have also had court cases that they have initiated go against them in the past. So it wouldn't be the first time.
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I wonder if this move will work. I don't thing HG will let case get dismiss and one of their revenue sources get blow up.
It doesn't matter what Harmony Gold wants. If the judge decides to dismiss the case, HG can file a appeal to the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. If the decision is upheld - and it would be, barring serious errors on the part of the judge - their final recourse is the US Supreme Court, who are very unlikely to bother with the case, as it is neither particularly important nor interesting.
Keep in mind that if the judge decides against granting dismissal, it is not a loss. It just means the case will proceed. PGI gave 16 reasons in their defense, and "Harmony Gold doesn't own the actual copyrights" was just one of those. They can still use it as a defense, they'll just have to work harder to prove it. (Remember, as a civil case, the parties share the burden of proof.)
I did a bit more research, and HG is not looking too good here. It turns out I was wrong when I stated before that Hasbro settled the SDCC Jetfire case out of court. It was actually dismissed with prejudice. This is not a binding precedent, but it can be used against HG, by showing they have a history of spurious legal claims. Because they settled the original FASA "Unseen" case out of court, there was no ruling that can be used by HG in their claim, which must be why they're working so hard to rope Jordan Weisman in.
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Does what happened with FASA even matter? Wasn't it settled out of court?
It would only matter if it is brought up and if the judge thinks it has to do with this case, I think.
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It would only matter if it is brought up and if the judge thinks it has to do with this case, I think.
Harmony Gold did bring it up, as they're using the agreement Jordan signed as evidence against him.
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For me, if CGL could gain access to the old images, that would be nice. I think that the Classics are the way to move forward from here on out regardless, but using the original Dougram and Macross images would mean that CGL could release PDFs of old books unaltered with original art.
To me, as unrealistic as that might be, it would be nice.
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I'd be happy this issue be put to rest.
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For me, if CGL could gain access to the old images, that would be nice. I think that the Classics are the way to move forward from here on out regardless, but using the original Dougram and Macross images would mean that CGL could release PDFs of old books unaltered with original art.
To me, as unrealistic as that might be, it would be nice.
Eh, I get the sentiment, but it's still "out of house" art. You can be sure that Big West/Studio Nue will make sure they've got the Macross art on copyright lockdown in the US after March 2021. I'm betting the legal costs of hammering out a limited license would be more than IMR/CGL will ever make on selling the old PDFs.
I'd be happy this issue be put to rest.
Same. That's the big thing, finally freeing BattleTech from Harmony Gold's predatory BS.
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I think that the Classics are the way to move forward from here on out regardless, but using the original Dougram and Macross images would mean that CGL could release PDFs of old books unaltered with original art.
Considering how simple it is to swap an image file in a PDF, retconning the look once and for all to be the Classics is not all that hard, and considering how damn good they look I'd be all for that. See my avatar, for example.
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Considering how simple it is to swap an image file in a PDF, retconning the look once and for all to be the Classics is not all that hard, and considering how damn good they look I'd be all for that. See my avatar, for example.
Eh, it'd probably still cost more to do that than the old books will earn. Sales numbers for PDFs are far smaller than you might think, and the sales fall off after release is abrupt.
But we're getting off topic here.
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Considering how simple it is to swap an image file in a PDF, retconning the look once and for all to be the Classics is not all that hard, and considering how damn good they look I'd be all for that. See my avatar, for example.
It wouldn't be that easy. Those books you're referring to never got an original PDF release and I doubt that CGL has PDF's of them lying around and any PDF's that do exist are scans of hardcopys, meaning that each page is a single image, so you'd have to edit that.
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It wouldn't be that easy. Those books you're referring to never got an original PDF release and I doubt that CGL has PDF's of them lying around and any PDF's that do exist are scans of hardcopys, meaning that each page is a single image, so you'd have to edit that.
There are actually a number of old books available on the catalyst game labs store in PDF format, including Technical Readout 3025 (with the original marauder on the cover replaced with the lineart drawing of the Atlas). In such cases, it would be a question of adding back new art (or reused new art) in the area where the original art was removed. Suddenly, people would know what that poor lady on the Galtor Campaign cover was hiding from!
EDIT: Bonus! If you added the new Archer in the place of the old one on the Galtor book, her fear would be even more compelling. What devilry is involved in these strange machines invading this aggressively eighties looking world?
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For me, if CGL could gain access to the old images, that would be nice. I think that the Classics are the way to move forward from here on out regardless, but using the original Dougram and Macross images would mean that CGL could release PDFs of old books unaltered with original art.
To me, as unrealistic as that might be, it would be nice.
I don't think so.
CGL would need to license them. This mess came about because they sub licensed from TCI and by the time HG sued, TCI was gone and with them any documentation that would have clarified the rights TCI had. And with FASA still burning after Playmates they weren't in a mood to fight.
Besides...for all that the old images are nice, the new custom designs are (IMO) better. Or at least, equally as good. Similar, yet different - far more different than some other images which have been ruled different for copyright purposes.
I'd like to see CGL simply create custom art for the Unseen...ALL the Unseen....in the same style. There's no need to license when paying for the art to won yourself is just as good and less problematic.
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Seyla. Just use Shimmering Swords unseen redo and say "This is them now".
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Seyla. Just use Shimmering Swords unseen redo and say "This is them now".
Now we just need the IIC's. ;)
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The work is already being done to replace the contested artwork. Until this is resolved, that's all on hold. There is already new artwork for the Wasp, Warhammer and Marauder circa 3025. The Wasp even has a mini.
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My point wasn't that I wanted a new licensing agreement for the Unseens. With the new classics coming about, I just want to be be able to use my Unseen originals in official events (if I ever get to one). I've got enough of them that I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of replacing them all with new models.
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It was settled out of court but the contract that Jordan signed is still legally binding and court enforceable
Between the arbitration agreement between HG and Tatsunoko, and the possibility of this getting dismissed with prejudice, the water around Jordan Weisman's agreement could get very muddy. Judges don't look kindly on consent decrees where it later turns out the plaintiff materially misrepresented basic facts, committed fraud, concealed critical information, or all of the above in order to high-end the defendant into signing. Weisman might have a good argument that the consent decree is null and void because of those things.
/I am not part of the Lawyer caste, by Kerensky's grace
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Something like that would have to wait until this is over, I'd say. I doubt that a new license would be pursued though given that it's been settled that only in-house designs would be the face of the game.
A nice nod would be to say the original sculpts are no longer an issue for official play but again, highly doubtful.
The idea is to get people to buy the minis, that are officially sanctioned.
My point wasn't that I wanted a new licensing agreement for the Unseens. With the new classics coming about, I just want to be be able to use my Unseen originals in official events (if I ever get to one). I've got enough of them that I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of replacing them all with new models.
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http://www.sarna.net/news/update-on-the-harmony-gold-lawsuit/
Read up and enjoy
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It doesn't matter what Harmony Gold wants. If the judge decides to dismiss the case, HG can file a appeal to the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. If the decision is upheld - and it would be, barring serious errors on the part of the judge - their final recourse is the US Supreme Court, who are very unlikely to bother with the case, as it is neither particularly important nor interesting.
I agree it would never reach that level, but I've always heard that this dispute is actually used as a case study in international law class - i.e. how not to obtain IP rights!
Like everyone here, I just want it to go away. I would like to game the original 4th SW era, but when I look at Iron Wind's site it can be depressing not to find an 'accurate' Warhammer, Rifleman, Marauder, etc. A gaping hole that needs to be filled, and at this point I don't care with what.
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The only games you can't use the original ones are official games. There is nothing barring you from using them in any other way shape or form.
I agree it would never reach that level, but I've always heard that this dispute is actually used as a case study in international law class - i.e. how not to obtain IP rights!
Like everyone here, I just want it to go away. I would like to game the original 4th SW era, but when I look at Iron Wind's site it can be depressing not to find an 'accurate' Warhammer, Rifleman, Marauder, etc. A gaping hole that needs to be filled, and at this point I don't care with what.
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You know, thinking more and more about this, I have to agree with some of the sentiments earlier in the thread that HG was really just trying to get PGI, HBS, and CGL to settle out of court. And to do so before the arbitration with Tatsunoko was finalized. If the case gets dismissed with prejudice, there is a chance HG is on the hook for the defendants' legal fees, correct?
For something that is theoretically such a small slice of HG's revenue, they really enjoy fighting for it.
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You know, thinking more and more about this, I have to agree with some of the sentiments earlier in the thread that HG was really just trying to get PGI, HBS, and CGL to settle out of court. And to do so before the arbitration with Tatsunoko was finalized. If the case gets dismissed with prejudice, there is a chance HG is on the hook for the defendants' legal fees, correct?
For something that is theoretically such a small slice of HG's revenue, they really enjoy fighting for it.
Anytime a civil case is decided, there is a chance for the victors to be awarded their legal fees from the losers. Were I one of the defending companies here, I'd certainly push for it.
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You know, thinking more and more about this, I have to agree with some of the sentiments earlier in the thread that HG was really just trying to get PGI, HBS, and CGL to settle out of court. And to do so before the arbitration with Tatsunoko was finalized. If the case gets dismissed with prejudice, there is a chance HG is on the hook for the defendants' legal fees, correct?
For something that is theoretically such a small slice of HG's revenue, they really enjoy fighting for it.
I'm not sure Harmony Gold realizes that we have an internet now, and even the puny legal know nothings they like to bully can find their dirty little secrets now.
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Or this is someone's special pet crusade at Harmony Gold and they have some serious influence.
Either way they are clearly blinded to the mess they are making for themselves and the ease of access to information present in the modern day.
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I believe that it's worse then that, if the judge dismisses it with prejudice I'm pretty sure if HG sues PGI again that PGI can sue HG back, not sure about other BT rights holders but.
If the case is dismissed with prejudice, then HG cannot sue over it again. Period. If they try to bring another lawsuit, it will be thrown out and the attorneys involved will face legal censure. I think PGI has the right of it here: only a copyright holder can legally claim breach of copyright. Harmony Gold appears to only have distribution rights for the images in question. Their copyrights are limited to their original contributions to Robotech, which have not been infringed. If the judge decides this is the case, then HBS and IMR will file similar motions to dismiss, which will be granted. Any parties who entered into previous agreements could then sue Harmony Gold to be released from those agreements, as they were made in bad faith.
(If you think you've seen this before, you're right. Don't ask.)
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So what has HG added to its amended complaint? Docket 51-53
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Not sure.
I'll have to go through the various links again to see. I suspect it is the remaining Classics that they missed and probably some sort of argument to deal with their arbitration agreement.
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I can't even see any new documents since filing 42. Could someone provide a link?
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https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
That link has the most recent.. don't know what filings where made before those listed.
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I'd hoped for something I didn't have to pay for. ;) Anyway, right now it doesn't look like the actual amended complaint has been filed, so we'll see.
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Yeah the two other sites I have bookmarked don't have anything recent either...
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So nothing really new on this front?
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Just the motion for dismissal by PGI. Other than that.. not sure as there are docket entries we don't know about as they are listed on any of the sites I have bookmarked.
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So to the best of my knowledge. Catalyst games, Topps, and Microsoft have been left out of this Lawsuit as named parties.
This appears to be a calculated attempt by Harmony Gold to avoid involving three companies with more money combined in their petty cash drawer then HG is worth all together.
On the licence for Robotech, Harmony Gold lost verses Hasbro over the "Jetfire" transformer , but won the case against Tatsunoko Productions which gave them sole distribution rights in the U.S.A. until 2021. Tatsunoko was implying that HG owe them a percentage of their US sale if I recall correctly.
This game them full rights over the following images for US distribution.
1 VF-1S FIGHTER
2 VF-1S BATTROID
3 VF-1S GERWALK
4 VF-1J FIGHTER
5 VF-1J BATTROID
6 VF-1J GERWALK
7 VF-1D FIGHTER
8 VF-1D BATTROID
9 VF-1D GERWALK
10 VF-1A FIGHTER
11 VF-1A BATTROID
12 VF-1A GERWALK
13 ARMORED VALKYRIE
14 SPARTAN
15 REGULT
16 GLAUG
17 SDF-1 BATTLE SHIP
18 SDF-1
19 PHALANX
20 DEFENDER
21 TOMAHAWK
22 QUEADLUUN-RAU
23 NOUSJADEUL-GER
24 MONSTER
25 QUEADOL-MAGDOMILLA
26 TOUGOU-GUN Emblem
27 ZENTRAEDI Emblem
28 Misa Hayase
29 Hikaru ichijo 1
30 Hikaru ichijo 2
31 Lynn Minmay 1
32 Lynn Minmay 2
33 Lynn Minmay 3
34 Lynn Minmay 4
35 Claudia La Salle
36 CAPTAIN Gloval
37 Maximilian Jeunius
38 Roy Focker
39 Milia Fallyuna Jenius
40 Bullitie
41 Exsedol Folmo
The downside of the case was that these right only extend till 2021, and considering the Tatsunoko Productions lawsuit there is little chance of this being extended.
As for the case last I looked it was set for Sept 2018.
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Catalyst IS part of the lawsuit. That is the reason we don't have any new minis as well as no Marauder etc in TRO Succession Wars.
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Plaintiff: Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.
Defendant: Harebrained Schemes LLC, Harebrained Holdings, Inc., Jordan Weisman, Piranha Games, Inc. and Does 1-10
These are the only companies/people listed in the lawsuit.
and all the images in the lawsuit are from the computer game. not the boardgame.
Now Does 1-10 doesn't seem to exist and could be a john doe entry for Catalyst?
As for Catalyst, the images that Harebrained Schemes is using are the new images for the unseen so this could be a wait and see issues.
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Please read the entire thread before commenting. Harmony Gold amended their case months ago to include InMediaRes, the parent corporation of Catalyst. ANS_Kama81 dug up that list of excluded copyrights, also months ago, and posted it here.
I should add that Catalyst is literally the smallest company involved here.
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@victor_shaw
You're missing a few things...
1) CGL is a indirect part of this trolling by HG. In at least up to Document 38 (05/15/17), examples using the Classic Marauder & Warhammer used in CM: Mercs and Campaign Ops were highlighted. That is why we don't have the Macross-inspired Classics in TRO:SW.
2) HG has distribution rights, but not copyright to the 41 Characters & Mecha you listed. And it is that lack that PGI recently submitted the motion to dismiss w/prejudice.
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@ColBosch
The last Document I could fined was for October 31, 2017 for a change of attorneys by HG.
Which did not list InMediaRes or Catalyst Games Lab.
Sorry was unaware of the motion to Default entered against InMediaRes
now was this motion approved or is it still pending?
@Tymers Realm
HG has distribution rights in all forms to exploited the 3 series under the licence.
You are right that they don't have copyright, but the publication of any images of these 41 items falls under that ruling.
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You're still a dozen pages behind, victor_shaw.
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Please read the entire thread before commenting. Harmony Gold amended their case months ago to include InMediaRes, the parent corporation of Catalyst. ANS_Kama81 dug up that list of excluded copyrights, also months ago, and posted it here.
I should add that Catalyst is literally the smallest company involved here.
IMR isn't CGL's parent company, CGL is an imprint of IMR. For those who don't understand, IMR is the legal entity but when they sell their stuff they call themselves CGL, and no I don't know why.
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Ok now that I have caught-up on the case.
Could the motion to amend be HG trying to remove PGI as a defendant to keep the summary judgment from going through without refiling the case?
I mean they are on a deadline hear as they lose all their rights in 2021.
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IMR isn't CGL's parent company, CGL is an imprint of IMR. For those who don't understand, IMR is the legal entity but when they sell their stuff they call themselves CGL, and no I don't know why.
Because IMR is older. Loren Coleman started it back in the WizKids/FanPro days to start up the BattleCorp fiction site.
But I don't know anything about the creation of CGL or the handoff from FanPro or any of that.
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Ok now that I have caught-up on the case.
Could the motion to amend be HG trying to remove PGI as a defendant to keep the summary judgment from going through without refiling the case?
I mean they are on a deadline hear as they lose all their rights in 2021.
I doubt that would do them much good aside from wasting everybody's time. They drop PGI, then the next in order files the same motion.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if they amended the complaint to throw in additional mecha they actually have control of. They already made those ludicrous comparisons to Hairbrained Schemes art, why not bring in some alpha or beta veritechs and try to stretch things that way.
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I don't know if they've actually amended the complaint yet, they're just asking for permission to do so. *sighs* Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and pay one of these sites to get access to the documents.
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Can you list the other docket entries that aren't showing up? Would be nice to know what else has happened since June even if its just the topic for the particular docket entry.
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What I found was
PGI summary judgement request
followed by an amended summary judgement request
then HG put in a amendment request
Followed by to amended amendment requests
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I don't know if they've actually amended the complaint yet, they're just asking for permission to do so. *sighs* Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and pay one of these sites to get access to the documents.
Think Leonard French might be willing to do a follow-up analysis?
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Think Leonard French might be willing to do a follow-up analysis?
I'm sure. I'll give him a poke.
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What I found was
PGI summary judgement request
followed by an amended summary judgement request
then HG put in a amendment request
Followed by to amended amendment requests
That much we already know. What I am referring to are dockets 43-45, 47, and 48. I haven't found any information on what those cover. 46 is HG changing a few lawyers and we already know 49-53 covers motions to dismiss and amend. Has anyone been able to dig up information on the missing dockets?
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So picked this out of the HBS thread, PGI wants to argue the motion in court it seems on Dec 15th. Fun times ahead. Did CGL ever get its own lawyer and get the default tossed?? That could be in one or more of the missing dockets but...
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So picked this out of the HBS thread, PGI wants to argue the motion in court it seems on Dec 15th. Fun times ahead. Did CGL ever get its own lawyer and get the default tossed?? That could be in one or more of the missing dockets but...
I guess the better question is if IMR=CGL as SCC mentioned above , does IMR have legal representation? And would that cover CGL, or are they distinct entities?
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I mean they are on a deadline hear as they lose all their rights in 2021.
It's more accurate to say the current contract between Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold expires in 2021. It's entirely possible they will negotiate a new deal, but they'll presumably have to take into account the 2002 Japanese court decision which stated that Tatsunoko only own the distribution rights to The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and not the rest of the franchise.
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It's more accurate to say the current contract between Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold expires in 2021. It's entirely possible they will negotiate a new deal, but they'll presumably have to take into account the 2002 Japanese court decision which stated that Tatsunoko only own the distribution rights to The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and not the rest of the franchise.
The buzz I've been hearing - which may just be Macross fanboy wishful thinking - is that Tatsunoko is completely fed up with Harmony Gold and is unlikely to renew their license. Remember that it was Tatsunoko that took HG to arbitration over royalties, which revealed both the March 2021 sunset date and the 41 Big West-owned likenesses. Also, keep in mind that while Robotech may have helped kick off the anime craze in America, Macross itself was blocked from importation by HG.
Basically, they shit where they slept, and now they're going to have to finally deal with the consequences.
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The 2021 date raises a lot of interesting questions. If the agreement is not renewed, does that mean HG's trademarks on things such as U.N. Spacey are null? If not, would those trademarks hamstring future importation of Macross anime? Would there be a lawsuit by Big West against HG over this?
Even if the distribution agreement gets renewed, unless HG wins their litigation I imagine Sony will drop Robotech like a hot potato.
Sorry if that is a bit off topic.
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I doubt it would affect the movie as they could just license what they needed from Big West or chose a different arc for a film such as the Invid Invasion. I doubt they would touch Southern Cross as I found it the least entertaining of the three for the Robotech story. As for the anime itself I enjoyed it, just not the butchered mess HG did... even as a kid it never sat well with me considering the tech in Macross and Southern Cross (not to mention Dana didn't fit at all).
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The 2021 date raises a lot of interesting questions. If the agreement is not renewed, does that mean HG's trademarks on things such as U.N. Spacey are null? If not, would those trademarks hamstring future importation of Macross anime? Would there be a lawsuit by Big West against HG over this?
Even if the distribution agreement gets renewed, unless HG wins their litigation I imagine Sony will drop Robotech like a hot potato.
Sorry if that is a bit off topic.
While not directly BT related, those are added pieces to an already complicated puzzle.
Plus let's not forget Palladium's part in this extended mess as well. Their RPG & Tactics products generate some revenue for HG as well.
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It's weird to think that we have always lived in a world where HG acted as though they had the rights to do what they wanted in perpetuity. The way they litigated, trademarked, and in general behaved conformed to that. Now we find they are just simple distributors no different from the various companies that have handled the couple of Dragon Ball Z dubs.
Just... weird.
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Not really.
Keep in mind how screwy the courts and that were in the late 80s/early 90s when HG pulled a lot of the things that are now starting to bite them in the ass. Time can change all things.
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It's weird to think that we have always lived in a world where HG acted as though they had the rights to do what they wanted in perpetuity. The way they litigated, trademarked, and in general behaved conformed to that. Now we find they are just simple distributors no different from the various companies that have handled the couple of Dragon Ball Z dubs.
Just... weird.
it was the classic Bavarian Fire Drill. Shout orders like you own the lot, and people won't question it. ;D
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it was the classic Bavarian Fire Drill. Shout orders like you own the lot, and people won't question it. ;D
You mean like urinating out the fire while stoking it hotter with petrol?
TT
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You mean like urinating out the fire while stoking it hotter with petrol?
You pee gasoline? I'd see a doctor about that.
So picked this out of the HBS thread, PGI wants to argue the motion in court it seems on Dec 15th. Fun times ahead. Did CGL ever get its own lawyer and get the default tossed?? That could be in one or more of the missing dockets but...
Not sure about the status of IMR's presence, though this leads to an interesting question. If IMR is in default, yet the lawsuit is later thrown out, does that default status retroactively cease to exist? I would imagine so, but never assume the machinations of wizardry.
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I do admit that part does confuse me a bit. There is no formal unified defense agreement that I am aware of but it is one case/trial.
I would think since it is one case/trial that indeed the default judgement would be dismissed as well though but I am no legal expert.
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I do admit that part does confuse me a bit. There is no formal unified defense agreement that I am aware of but it is one case/trial.
I would think since it is one case/trial that indeed the default judgement would be dismissed as well though but I am no legal expert.
Wouldn't a unified defense be something the lawyers of the various defendants want? Or at the very least have some sort of shared game plan? (I have no idea how multi-defendant lawsuits work.)
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Wouldn't a unified defense be something the lawyers of the various defendants want? Or at the very least have some sort of shared game plan? (I have no idea how multi-defendant lawsuits work.)
That would be up to those lawyers. While HG named all three companies as if they all committed the same act, all three act independently of each other and have various reasons to approach the accusations differently.
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True enough and I feel a bit optimistic. With the holiday season though the judge probably won't make a ruling for a while.
That, and the whole thing seems murky enough that the judge may just want to hear out both arguments at full length, rather than dismissing the case early.
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That would be up to those lawyers. While HG named all three companies as if they all committed the same act, all three act independently of each other and have various reasons to approach the accusations differently.
To me, it seems, that PGI has the largest 'budget' for the lawsuit and they're willing to take on them first and if they win, that would probably allow CGL and HBS to do the same.
I'm not a lawyer though and i'm also not really familiar with the US court process, so i might be completely wrong.
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TOUGOU-GUN.... i assume that's the UN Spacy insignia? What does TOUGOU mean? a initial image search shows nothing of the kind of anything related to Macross (just some cranky anime dude...)
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TOUGOU-GUN.... i assume that's the UN Spacy insignia? What does TOUGOU mean? a initial image search shows nothing of the kind of anything related to Macross (just some cranky anime dude...)
First search of translation to eng from jp: http://www.kanjijapanese.com/en/dictionary-japanese-english/tougou
From what I have found it seams that tougou-gun probably references to UN military (http://macross.wikia.com/wiki/United_Nations_Military). But what exactly is that reference I didn't found
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the unified earth government is the 地球統合政府 / chikyuu tougou seifu ("Integrated Global Government", or Lit. "Earth integration government")
and the UNspacy is 統合宇宙軍 / Tōgō Uchūgun ("United Nations Spacy", lit. "Integrated Space Army")
so yeah it would be the "kite in circle" logo:
http://macross.wikia.com/wiki/U.N._Spacy
(note: the transliterations are from two different macross wiki's, thus the different spellings. the literal translations were obtained through google, so might not be 100% accurate literal translations)
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All I want is to get my (nu)Classic Warhammer and Marauder back!
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the unified earth government is the 地球統合政府 / chikyuu tougou seifu ("Integrated Global Government", or Lit. "Earth integration government")
and the UNspacy is 統合宇宙軍 / Tōgō Uchūgun ("United Nations Spacy", lit. "Integrated Space Army")
so yeah it would be the "kite in circle" logo:
http://macross.wikia.com/wiki/U.N._Spacy
(note: the transliterations are from two different Macross wiki's, thus the different spellings. the literal translations were obtained through google, so might not be 100% accurate literal translations)
Spacy... not Space Navy? now i know Mobile Suit Gundam predates Macross... and i want to say that I've seen the term UN Spacy either used or Seen on a model kit (as well as EDF, EFSF,etc)... did Gundam or Macross originate the term 'U.N.Spacy'? I would like to think it's from Macross, since an awful lot of the concepts from Macross come from the US Navy in Japan in 1981 time frame
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Spacy... not Space Navy? now i know Mobile Suit Gundam predates Macross... and i want to say that I've seen the term UN Spacy either used or Seen on a model kit (as well as EDF, EFSF,etc)... did Gundam or Macross originate the term 'U.N.Spacy'? I would like to think it's from Macross, since an awful lot of the concepts from Macross come from the US Navy in Japan in 1981 time frame
It is Macross. Definitely something I recall seeing in a screenshot of the show, somewhere. Definitely something I find on Macross model kits - plastered on the side of a Veritech leg or the side of a gun pod. And, when you google it, Macross sites are what come up.
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Spacy... not Space Navy? now i know Mobile Suit Gundam predates Macross... and i want to say that I've seen the term UN Spacy either used or Seen on a model kit (as well as EDF, EFSF,etc)... did Gundam or Macross originate the term 'U.N.Spacy'? I would like to think it's from Macross, since an awful lot of the concepts from Macross come from the US Navy in Japan in 1981 time frame
Macross used Spacy first, Gundam used UNT Spacy in 0080 and 0083 as the title of what was later referred to as the EFSF.
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I can't help but giggle at this.
https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/11/29/16709142/battletech-mechwarrior-weisman-babcock-bills
That eyecatch picture right from the original Mechwarrior...with an Unseen Rifleman.
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Interesting article! Some neat perspectives on the early days, and confirmation that Lucas made grumpy noises about the use of the word "droid."
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I can't help but giggle at this.
https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/11/29/16709142/battletech-mechwarrior-weisman-babcock-bills
That eyecatch picture right from the original Mechwarrior...with an Unseen Rifleman.
I always found that wedding scene to be very memorable but I had no idea that FASA pulled that at a con. I would have loved to see that. That sounds like so much fun. Granted if I was there and chosen to participate the poor force stuck with me as commander would be almost a for sure loss.
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Interesting article! Some neat perspectives on the early days, and confirmation that Lucas made grumpy noises about the use of the word "droid."
Dangit, I was convinced I was right when I correct people that there was no lawsuit, and it only changed because they were hoping to catch a SW license. I guess I'm only right about the 'no lawsuit' bit.
It's funny, I don't remember where I heard that, but I recall that I felt the source was beyond reproach. It's weird that you can assign reliability to information, without recalling *why* you assigned it.
tl;dr I don't know who to blame. ;)
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I found a reference to Paul Sjardin (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=47279.msg1090620#msg1090620), but I've got something similar in the notes for my big History graphic, which means the original claim at least predates 2012; I was still using bookmarks to track attribution back then, so I'm not sure if I took the claim from you, or from the same source you did.
I think the existence of the "nastygram" has been known at least since the RGM days? What's uncertain is if (or when) FASA might've tried to get a Star Wars license, which the article doesn't help with.
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I'd definitely heard it before Paul posted about it. I can't remember who told me that FASA was pursuing a Star Wars license that later morphed into Renegade Legion, however. It's been decades. But this is the nature of history; one first-hand source can change everything. Here's Ian of Forgotten Weapons and Othais of C&Rsenal discussing a recent discovery with similar results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dugp6lVQ2BE
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I could swear I remember hearing something about Battletech originally being a licensed Robotech boardgame, that the Japaneses company pulled out of, but left them with permission to use the designs?
well you learn something new everyday.
As to why the 3 companies don't make a united case.
I think it has to due with how HG filed the case.
HG is using different art work in its case against each defendant.
So since none of the art work overlaps I don't believe they can mount a united defenses.
As to the distribution rights sun-setting in 2021.
this puts HG in a tight spot.
I believe they can continue distributing produces like "Robotech" and "Shadow Chronicles" as these are either IPs that they have modified enough to be considered original works or product that existed before the loss of the licence. . What they will lose in 2021 is the right to be the sole distributor of the Macross series in the United States. Or the abilities to use any on the names and images in new projects.
This is where the Movie is in jeopardy I believe.
If they can film it and get it into theaters before 2021 then the're set, but if they can't they would be forced to negotiate the rights from Big West to which will cost them not only for the licence, but will probably cost them a percentage of the box-office.
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I could swear I remember hearing something about Battletech originally being a licensed Robotech boardgame, that the Japaneses company pulled out of, but left them with permission to use the designs?
well you learn something new everyday.
Not from what I've read, BT was developed inspired by Anime, Weisman didn't like the mystic nature of the Mangas, but loved the idea of stompy robots.
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@ColBosch
The last Document I could fined was for October 31, 2017 for a change of attorneys by HG.
Which did not list InMediaRes or Catalyst Games Lab.
Sorry was unaware of the motion to Default entered against InMediaRes
now was this motion approved or is it still pending?
Wednesday, June 28, 2017
#42 Order on Motion for Default Wed 1:27 PM
ORDER signed by Clerk William M. McCool granting #39 Motion for Default by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. Default entered against InMediaRes Productions, LLC. (KD)
You can find all filed documents on PacerMonitor: https://www.pacermonitor.com/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al , and some of them are available freely at another location: https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/wawd/242820/
I could swear I remember hearing something about Battletech originally being a licensed Robotech boardgame, that the Japaneses company pulled out of, but left them with permission to use the designs?
No. The models were licensed from a model kit distributor named Twentieth Century Imports.
I believe they can continue distributing produces like "Robotech" and "Shadow Chronicles" as these are either IPs that they have modified enough to be considered original works or product that existed before the loss of the licence.
No, HG made the same claim in the arbitration and the ruling states in no uncertain terms that this is not the case. If their license is not renewed they will lose any rights to make use of Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada footage or character/mecha designs for any purpose.
If Shadow Chronicles contains any mecha or footage sourced from any of those series (or obvious derivatives thereof) it would be affected in the same fashion.
I'm not entirely certain if Robotech's storyline itself may or may not be considered a derivative work in this context - if it is, then HG would end up holding only the name itself.
Can you list the other docket entries that aren't showing up? Would be nice to know what else has happened since June even if its just the topic for the particular docket entry.
That much we already know. What I am referring to are dockets 43-45, 47, and 48. I haven't found any information on what those cover. 46 is HG changing a few lawyers and we already know 49-53 covers motions to dismiss and amend. Has anyone been able to dig up information on the missing dockets?
PacerMonitor has a reasonably up to date list: https://www.pacermonitor.com/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
43-46 all apply to HG changing their lawyers, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_hac_vice
47-50 are all PGI's filings regarding their motion for summary judgement.
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Geeze, IMR still doesn't have a lawyer? How serious is this? Can they just coast until the judge rules on the summary judgment request by PGI?
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PacerMonitor has a reasonably up to date list: https://www.pacermonitor.com/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
That does us no good since hardly anyone here PAYS for pacer.
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That does us no good since hardly anyone here PAYS for pacer.
All you wanted is a listing of docket items, which a free PacerMonitor account can access at will - the registration link is buried on their plans/pricing page, here's a direct one: https://www.pacermonitor.com/register
If you wanted to download copies of the filed documents, that costs you extra - free accounts pay a flat $5 per item (still acceptable if you only download a few items per month), while subscription/trial accounts pay based on the page count.
EDIT: PCGamesN just posted an article regarding the recent developments in the case ( https://www.pcgamesn.com/mechwarrior-5-mercenaries/mechwarrior-copyright-infringement-harmony-gold ) and included links to copies of both PGI's motion for summary judgment and HG's motion to amend complaint:
https://www.scribd.com/document/366048830/Piranha-Motion-for-Summary-Judgment
https://www.scribd.com/document/366049332/Harmony-Gold-Motion-to-Amend-Complaint
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Yeah, Harmony kind of looks like they want the court to turn a blind eye to their bullshit back in 03.
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Yeah, Harmony kind of looks like they want the court to turn a blind eye to their bullshit back in 03.
They are literally trying to rewrite history.
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' "In particular, this amended complaint no longer asserts that Piranha Games' mechs are "derivative," but instead are "unlawful copies." '
Ah, HG just put themselves into a lot of trouble. Because even if you want to claim that the PGI and HBS designs are too close for comfort, they are definitely not copies.
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I suspect they're hoping to drag it out long enough that the defendants run out of money and have to settle.
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' "In particular, this amended complaint no longer asserts that Piranha Games' mechs are "derivative," but instead are "unlawful copies." '
Ah, HG just put themselves into a lot of trouble. Because even if you want to claim that the PGI and HBS designs are too close for comfort, they are definitely not copies.
Wow. If the Judge doesn't dismiss the case with prejudice at this point for all defendants I will be rather shocked.
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Astounding. Keep digging, HG.
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So is it me or is HG trying to claim here that they don't need a copyright, because Tatsuoko gave them exclusive distribution rights to all "Robot Warriors" int the United States?
If so what are they thinking?
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If so what are they thinking?
"We tried bullying them and it isn't working, try harder!"
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Though I wonder what this might mean for robotech tactics. Palladium got their permission to make the game from Harmony gold. Does this now mean that their figures are now unauthorized reproductions?
(Not that suddenly being unable to produce the game would be much different from its current state, as I understand).
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The argument does seem to have shifted from "these images are derivative of our copyrights" to "these images are copies of stuff we have the right to distribute." And they're not, so that's that.
Also, did you catch the catty tone throughout this document? Harmony Gold is really gunning for victim status here, but it comes across as incredibly hammy. It's like a little kid caught in a lie, trying to blame everyone else. "Our old lawyer messed up! The folks suing us were so mean! Nobody should've ever known about that, they promised not to tell! They didn't give us tiiiiiiiime to file an amendment!"
Though I wonder what this might mean for robotech tactics. Palladium got their permission to make the game from Harmony gold. Does this now mean that their figures are now unauthorized reproductions?
(Not that suddenly being unable to produce the game would be much different from its current state, as I understand).
No, that would be fine (until 2021, of course).
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I was wondering how the lawyer change fit in the timeline. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous lawyers told HG that they are boned after the Tatsunoko arbitration, but HG didn't want to quite; therefore they went with a lawyer -- any lawyer -- that would continue to represent them through this.
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Wednesday, June 28, 2017
#42 Order on Motion for Default Wed 1:27 PM
ORDER signed by Clerk William M. McCool granting #39 Motion for Default by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. Default entered against InMediaRes Productions, LLC. (KD)
Yeah I was behind but caught up :)
No. The models were licensed from a model kit distributor named Twentieth Century Imports.No, HG made the same claim in the arbitration and the ruling states in no uncertain terms that this is not the case. If their license is not renewed they will lose any rights to make use of Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada footage or character/mecha designs for any purpose.
So this would include any rights to the movie if it ever come out?
That may shine some more light on this lawsuit, As just an attempt to make money on the licence before it is removed.
Even if they get the movie off the ground it will be in mid 2018 at the earliest. with a year at the earliest for filming and post-production.
Lots of CGI work going to be needed. And to the best of my knowledge have not even finished writing the script.
The film would not hit till late 2019 to early 2020 Not leaving them much time for DVD,Toys,games, Etc.
If Shadow Chronicles contains any mecha or footage sourced from any of those series (or obvious derivatives thereof) it would be affected in the same fashion.
I'm not entirely certain if Robotech's storyline itself may or may not be considered a derivative work in this context - if it is, then HG would end up holding only the name itself.
would depend on how US law views it Robotech is not Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada so they may be able to get away with calling to a transformative product.I doubt it will work but you never know. I would have to go back and re-watch Macross, but the only thing the stores have in common if I remember correctly is the animation. Now if this gets past the law, then Shadow Chronicles has a free ride since it is derived from Robotech not the other three.
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I was wondering how the lawyer change fit in the timeline. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous lawyers told HG that they are boned after the Tatsunoko arbitration, but HG didn't want to quite; therefore they went with a lawyer -- any lawyer -- that would continue to represent them through this.
That very well could be. They certainly threw their old counsel right under the bus immediately.
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While PGI, And CG seem to have a way out of this lawsuit due to the lack of copyrights by HG.
From what I am reading Jordan Weisman and by extension Harebrained Schemes are being sued do to violation of the settlement.
From the wording it appears that Weisman agreed not to create any derivatives of the Robotech Mecha.
Not sure if this will hold-up with the latest information, but they may still have a case against him even if the others fail.
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That's true, but we also don't know the extent of what is in that agreement, how it can be interpreted, or how that arbitration agreement with Tatsunoko affects the validity of it. My hope is that Weisman is smart enough to know when he can fight something.
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I
That very well could be. They certainly threw their old counsel right under the bus immediately.
I can just see in now
HG boardroom
HG: they made Robot Warriors that infringed on our copyright.
Old lawyers: Great we have a case.
PGI: They don't own the copyrights (documental Proof)
Old lawyers: you have no case.
New lawyers: Lets amend until they are forced to settle.
HG to old lawyers: Your fired
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would depend on how US law views it Robotech is not Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada so they may be able to get away with calling to a transformative product.I doubt it will work but you never know. I would have to go back and re-watch Macross, but the only thing the stores have in common if I remember correctly is the animation. Now if this gets past the law, then Shadow Chronicles has a free ride since it is derived from Robotech not the other three.
Robotech uses the Mospedea mecha as well so unless they could show it as copyrightable derivatives they would lose it too. They also reuse character designs for at least one person, Scott Bernard. Not sure how close Marlane(sp) is to the original source material.
From what I am reading Jordan Weisman and by extension Harebrained Schemes are being sued do to violation of the settlement.
From the wording it appears that Weisman agreed not to create any derivatives of the Robotech Mecha.
Not sure if this will hold-up with the latest information, but they may still have a case against him even if the others fail.
This was a stupid move on HGs part. They did not create anything used by PGI so there really isn't any agreement violation. The two or three claimed units that are derivatives of HGs false are a joke, not even a blind man would agree with HG.
But lets not get started with CGL... I see nothing that points to CGL even making an attempt to fight this out or even get the default reversed. I hope I'm wrong but...
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Yeah, Harmony kind of looks like they want the court to turn a blind eye to their bullshit back in 03.
Better: they're trying to assert said bullshit as truth.
So this would include any rights to the movie if it ever come out?
Yes, if the movie copies any of the Macross/Mospeada/Southern Cross mecha.
If it doesn't, it's probably in the clear.
That may shine some more light on this lawsuit, As just an attempt to make money on the licence before it is removed.
Yeah, that has been frequently theorized as their motive.
So is it me or is HG trying to claim here that they don't need a copyright, because Tatsuoko gave them exclusive distribution rights to all "Robot Warriors" int the United States?
It would seem so.
Though I wonder what this might mean for robotech tactics. Palladium got their permission to make the game from Harmony gold. Does this now mean that their figures are now unauthorized reproductions?
No, that would be fine (until 2021, of course).
The arbitration ruling does state, quote, "excluding any right to create derivative works using the 41 original character from Macross program which now belonged to Big West".
I was wondering how the lawyer change fit in the timeline. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous lawyers told HG that they are boned after the Tatsunoko arbitration, but HG didn't want to quite; therefore they went with a lawyer -- any lawyer -- that would continue to represent them through this.
It fits. The arbitration award was confirmed on August 23rd, HG filed to substitute their lawyers on October 30th.
From what I am reading Jordan Weisman and by extension Harebrained Schemes are being sued do to violation of the settlement.
From the wording it appears that Weisman agreed not to create any derivatives of the Robotech Mecha.
Not sure if this will hold-up with the latest information, but they may still have a case against him even if the others fail.
From what I'm reading, I'm getting the impression HG is rewriting the settlement to be whatever they need (pray they do not rewrite it any further).
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Man. I was hoping to get Wave 2 stuff for Tactics as well.
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Man. I was hoping to get Wave 2 stuff for Tactics as well.
Wave two of Tactics has kind of become a joke.
And that's a thread drift for elsewhere...
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Man. I was hoping to get Wave 2 stuff for Tactics as well.
+1.Wave two of Tactics has kind of become a joke.
And that's a thread drift for elsewhere...
Should we revive the discussion down in the off topic area with Protoculture?
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There's a rule against bringing problems in from other forums ... and RRT Wave 2 is a problem from another forum.
W. [copper]
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In all honesty if there's any push from Sony right now it's going to be 'wait until 2021' when there's suddenly no more question about who owns what, and distribution rights won't potentially have to get HG's agreement - and for that matter, Sony won't have to share the profits with Harmony Gold as well. If I were them, I'd hold off, work up a solid script, work up a good team, and start signing folks late next year for any sort of serious project work. It's very clear HG is a poisonous partner and one that's about to lose significant control of the IP, so just wait until the dust settles and Big West, Tatsunoko, Sony, and whoever else can all set up and do their thing.
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In all honesty if there's any push from Sony right now it's going to be 'wait until 2021' when there's suddenly no more question about who owns what, and distribution rights won't potentially have to get HG's agreement - and for that matter, Sony won't have to share the profits with Harmony Gold as well. If I were them, I'd hold off, work up a solid script, work up a good team, and start signing folks late next year for any sort of serious project work. It's very clear HG is a poisonous partner and one that's about to lose significant control of the IP, so just wait until the dust settles and Big West, Tatsunoko, Sony, and whoever else can all set up and do their thing.
I am expecting that if they waited that long whole project would end. HG will probably push for fast production (never a good idea) and we will get horrible Robotech. But since I didn't know Robotech existed until this whole mess with BT franchise I am not that excited about Robotech movie as I would rather see solid Macross LA movie.
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But then it wouldn't be a Robotech movie, it would be a Macross movie which doesn't have the same name recognition as Robotech. HG will still retain the rights to Robotech iirc they just lose a lot of names, almost all art assets, etc. If HG were smart they would have hired an animation company to completely redesign Robotech to look close enough to the original material as to not violate copyright laws. RT is still popular and it would have been easy enough to drop the old deal after their 30th anniversary for something better. Not to mention an updated story/animation could be rebroadcast to reignite its popularity.
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New filings yesterday by HBS and PGI. Looks like both are contesting the amended complaint by HG.
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As someone who's very much not understanding the terminology here and knows sod all about laws, can someone break it down for me.
Basically, is this good for Battletech and bad for Harmony Gold, or should we be cautiously optimistic and keep the champagne on ice?
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New filings yesterday by HBS and PGI. Looks like both are contesting the amended complaint by HG.
Of course. The amended complaint not only attempts to rewrite history, it also completely changes the actual, you know, complaint. Were I PGI or HBS, I'd be pushing for dismissal and, if that fails, to just let it go to trial. HG looks super bad here, especially in their whines that PGI filed the motion to dismiss too fast for them. Meaning, of course, that they'd hoped nobody would catch the result of the arbitration with Tatsunoko, and once it became clear that PGI's lawyers were on top of their research, filed that ridiculous and nigh-indefensible amendment.
Seriously, the more I think about it, the more I find myself shaking my head. PGI's lawyers were perfectly within their rights and duties to break off settlement talks once the arbitration agreement came to light. That Harmony Gold tried to claim rights they never had in the first place looks awful, and this "unauthorized copies" stuff is nonsense. A case could be made that some of the nuSeen are visually derivative of Macross designs, but they are very clearly not outright reproductions. I seem to recall that Games Workshop tried that tack when they went after aftermarket part suppliers, and got smacked down pretty hard. Remember: you can only copyright specific creations, not ideas. For example, GW and CGL can't go after each other for the similarities between Clan Wolf and the Space Wolves. Harmony Gold should've kept that in mind, because that was the ruling of the judge in FASA vs. Playmates, the suit that started this whole ball rolling back in the 90's.
As someone who's very much not understanding the terminology here and knows sod all about laws, can someone break it down for me.
Basically, is this good for Battletech and bad for Harmony Gold, or should we be cautiously optimistic and keep the champagne on ice?
It ain't over until it's over. (But go ahead and drink the champagne now; it doesn't really keep well and we can get more later.) What terminology are you having trouble with? I am not a lawyer, but I can give rough definitions in plain English.
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The problem there is CGL does not appear to be in the fight anymore. As of Aug 28th they did not have a lawyer and the default still stands.
If the case against HBS and PGI gets dismissed how then do things go for CGL??
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The problem there is CGL does not appear to be in the fight anymore. As of Aug 28th they did not have a lawyer and the default still stands.
If the case against HBS and PGI gets dismissed how then do things go for CGL??
That would require legal analysis beyond most of us.
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But then it wouldn't be a Robotech movie, it would be a Macross movie which doesn't have the same name recognition as Robotech. HG will still retain the rights to Robotech iirc they just lose a lot of names, almost all art assets, etc. If HG were smart they would have hired an animation company to completely redesign Robotech to look close enough to the original material as to not violate copyright laws. RT is still popular and it would have been easy enough to drop the old deal after their 30th anniversary for something better. Not to mention an updated story/animation could be rebroadcast to reignite its popularity.
The Robotech name isn't that valuable, and HG have only themselves to blame for that.
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If HG were smart they would have hired an animation company to completely redesign Robotech to look close enough to the original material as to not violate copyright laws.
I almost wish they would, for the pure schadenfreude of seeing the shoe on their foot if someone else pulled the same hijinks HG's pulling on us right now!
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The problem there is CGL does not appear to be in the fight anymore. As of Aug 28th they did not have a lawyer and the default still stands.
If the case against HBS and PGI gets dismissed how then do things go for CGL??
I asked about CGL's representation upthread, and the response was "it's being taken care of". Given my total lack of inside information, I accept that until proven otherwise.
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I almost wish they would, for the pure schadenfreude of seeing the shoe on their foot if someone else pulled the same hijinks HG's pulling on us right now!
Well-wishes aside, the show could use a facelift.
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That costs money to do though. Easier to make it through litigation!
Well-wishes aside, the show could use a facelift.
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In fairness to CGL/IMR it's very much the best for the company to NOT say anything that isn't in a legal filing. Misinterpretations and a requirement for specific legal terminology means the only option is really to say 'no comment' and we'll have to popcorn the show as each document shows up.
That said, there are folks that do a good job translating legal stuff, namely French's work and he's already taken a hard look at the earlier documents in the suit and arbitration. Bosch said he passed it on, so I'd expect to see something from him in the relative near future. Not that he isn't busy following other lawsuits as well, including things that involve [RULE FREAKIN FOUR LIKE YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE] so he might be delayed.
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Well-wishes aside, the show could use a facelift.
And a haircut. :P
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In fairness to CGL/IMR it's very much the best for the company to NOT say anything that isn't in a legal filing. Misinterpretations and a requirement for specific legal terminology means the only option is really to say 'no comment' and we'll have to popcorn the show as each document shows up.
True. I guess if they said, "We have a strategy for this, but we can't give details," although opaque it could still hurt them. It is just hard to imagine anything positive from CGL/IMR in this situation other than, "We have a lawyer."
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Just saying we have a lawyer would make me happy. I dread that update to pacer that has a more recent list of who is representing who.
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Just saying we have a lawyer would make me happy.
They did, last Con when this mess first started. They also said they couldn't talk about it and it probably wouldn't be resolved until 2018.
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They did, last Con when this mess first started. They also said they couldn't talk about it and it probably wouldn't be resolved until 2018.
I accept and appreciate they can't talk about it and in no way am I soliciting comment they can't give, but it does raise the question of if they have a lawyer, why the summary default judgement against CGL for what sounds like essentially not showing up to mount a defense? ???
Seriously. if they have a lawyer and just plain didn't show up to court to face the charges, that sounds highly irresponsible.
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Then that's on IMR. But nobody here has any information on it, and the few who might aren't talking, so let's table it for the time being.
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So was talking with my brother, a senior in Law School about this.
He had some interesting things to say.
On the 90's settlement, it is in HG best interest that the case doesn't go to trial.
As he put it the settlement must meet the "four corners" of contract law.
If any part of the settlement is proven unenforceable (Like HG claiming copyrights they don't have) then the whole contract is void.
As for the PGI/HBS part of the lawsuit, HG appears to him to be playing the semantics game.
The amendments to him seem to be changing key words to invalidate the summery judgement request through semantics.
Distributorship vs. Copyright, Deviations vs. copies, etc. With the idea to prolong the case to get an out of court settlement.
Or you can say "they are trying to bury PCI in paperwork"
As for CGI, he thinks their best chance is to ride out the lawsuit say little or nothing and either piggyback a PCI/HBS summery judgement request or let it go to court and have HG's case fall apart, which would lift the judgement on them as it would have no foundation.
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PGI went postal on HG!
This showed up on the HBS forums. It's... rather brutal. https://imgur.com/a/gNLpK
What this means for the case is anyone's guess, but just reading over this... I would hate to be HG about now. And yes we knew it was filed and what it meant, but I don't believe any of us had actually seen it prior to today. I can't wait until Leonard French does an update on this (please do please do please do).
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All I have to say is WOW!
PGI is not having it.
HG is in big trouble.
This may be over faster then we thought.
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I refuse to get excited yet, but it does read badly for HG. What a bunch of crybabies :'(
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Seriously, this is a very well made legal argument. Granted, it's up to the judge, but the preponderance of evidence all cited by PGI is entirely justifying their claims. I don't see how this CAN'T get HG nuked.
Champagne time kids!
Reading further, damn, they're bringing up the term false allegations outright - meaning PGI's claim is that HG lied to the court. Oh this is gonna get delicious.
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I accept and appreciate they can't talk about it and in no way am I soliciting comment they can't give, but it does raise the question of if they have a lawyer, why the summary default judgement against CGL for what sounds like essentially not showing up to mount a defense? ???
IIRC the issue wasn't lack of lawyer per say, just that IMR/CGL failed to respond within the time allotted for the initial motions.
basically, IMR/CGL was probably just late in getting their paperwork to the court. understandable, since they were apparently not informed of the lawsuit until very late in the process.
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IIRC the issue wasn't lack of lawyer per say, just that IMR/CGL failed to respond within the time allotted for the initial motions.
basically, IMR/CGL was probably just late in getting their paperwork to the court. understandable, since they were apparently not informed of the lawsuit until very late in the process.
No, they had a full 30+ days to respond, and even more time while the court considered the motion for default. IMR dropped the ball, plain and simple, but ultimately will be just fine.
As for PGI's response...wow indeed. They are not pulling their punches at all, going so far as to refute cases HG cited. They're making clear that this entire suit is BS and that Harmony Gold is acting in extremely bad faith. I am beginning to wonder if HG's original lawyers refused to continue after the arbitration agreement came to light. Harmony Gold straight-up lied to the court on multiple occasions, and has been lying for literally decades about their "rights."
Edit: My new favorite line: "This is not a correct statement of the law."
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I know, right? Whoever PGI has is particularly enjoying sticking it to Harmony Gold, the way they're absolutely hammering them on every point made. There's kill and there's overkill, and this isn't quite to overkill...but damn if it's not hitting home solid.
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No such thing as overkill.
I am not a lawyer but I would interpret the approach being taken by the PGI lawyers to be:
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/072/034/1275681680230.jpg)
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you know this is just my opinion but as I understand it the courts really don't like people wasting their time and making willfully false statements (aka lying ) about the merits of their case.
while it still comes down to the judge's decision I really don't see any real way for harmony gold to win, barring an attempt to circumvent the law and merits of the actual argument through "alternate revenue contributions"
I wonder if the real reason their previous lawyers quit was that as soon as the arbitration came to light and was submitted as a court ruling (aka the ACTUAL ownership of the Macross 43) they told HG they could not continue the case because there was no merit (standing) and HG was now guilty of both Attempted fraud and extortion if they continued.
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And you know the best part? Big West/Studio Nue aren't going to get involved, because they have no animosity towards BattleTech. Indeed, they provided the art for the Japanese edition of the game.
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And you know the best part? Big West/Studio Nue aren't going to get involved, because they have no animosity towards BattleTech. Indeed, they provided the art for the Japanese edition of the game.
Has anyone ever worked out exactly who did the designs?
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Some Japanese guy... the one who, iirc, started Macross. Don't remember his name though, I believe he worked for/with Sudio Nue. Have to get kids ready for school but will try and look up his name after they get on the bus.
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I know, right? Whoever PGI has is particularly enjoying sticking it to Harmony Gold, the way they're absolutely hammering them on every point made. There's kill and there's overkill, and this isn't quite to overkill...but damn if it's not hitting home solid.
I'm wondering if MicroSoft isn't underwriting PGI, either that or PGI has deeper pockets than I expected. It is, after all, in MicroSoft's best interest to have this resolved in such a way as to destroy any future possible case against Battletech IP.
Everything about how PGI have handled this smacks of someone willing to go the distance, they've gotten themselves an effective legal team and have not only picked up the gauntlet, they've punched HG in the nose with it.
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Some Japanese guy... the one who, iirc, started Macross. Don't remember his name though, I believe he worked for/with Sudio Nue. Have to get kids ready for school but will try and look up his name after they get on the bus.
Shoji Kawamori is famously 'the' Nue mechanical designer for the original Macross series (and a lot of followup), though Kazutaka Miyatake has a hell of a resume and was part of the project as well. Southern Cross had four designers, Ammonite (yes, that's his? credit), Hiroshi Ogawa, Hirotoshi Okura, and Takashi Ono. Mechanical design for Mospeada came from Artmic veterans, namely Hideki Kakinuma and the legendary Shinji Aramaki. (for the record I loved Artmic's work across the board)
Everything about how PGI have handled this smacks of someone willing to go the distance, they've gotten themselves an effective legal team and have not only picked up the gauntlet, they've punched HG in the nose with it.
Wonderful to see them take things seriously and defend their work as hard as they can.
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Everything about how PGI have handled this smacks of someone willing to go the distance, they've gotten themselves an effective legal team and have not only picked up the gauntlet, they've punched HG in the nose gonads with it.
FTFY
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I wake up and see all of this. Damn, PGI is going for the throat.
Guys, guys... Fire & Blood, am I right?
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Well, I guess all those Mech Packs are paying off.
PGI is looking like the 'knight in shining armor' that this franchise needs. The argument is way too damn good, both paying attention to how law actually works (unlike Harmony Gold) and going for the strategic kill.
Once this is over, it's over.
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What's the excitement?
PGI aren't particularly brutal or going postal - these concepts are ill-suited to lawsuits. It's all about who has the better arguments. From how I understand it, it was all about wether or not defendants would stand up for their rights (and risk crippling cost in the case of losing).
PGI are simply reaching for low-hanging apples here, responding to HG's poor arguments. Even when trying to view it with a neutral mindset I find that the defense arguments convince me consideably more than HG's arguments, given the facts that have been presented.
As for the arguments themselves, there's nothing really new in there. PGI pretty much did what we expected (I believe).
I am happy to see though that they actually did stand up to HG.
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I wouldn't be too optimistic. Chapterhouse caught GW in several blatant lies but still the case went forward and GW won a partial victory.
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I am not a lawyer but I would interpret the approach being taken by the PGI lawyers to be:
And I always picture HG lawyers as this guy:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/b2d8aec9-55e4-426f-a827-fa7cf522ab0f/scale-to-width-down/627)
"Do you hear what you're saying? It's paranoid delusion. It's. . .it's really sad!"
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What's the excitement?
Excitement of seeing HG getting the taste of its own medicine that we got for 20+ years?
Excitement of the possibility of finally getting over this legal mess, and in our favour at that?
Excitement of the possiblity of getting rid of another millstone that kept dragging down the Battletech IP?
What we see here is what many dreamed of, but did not dare to hope to ever see in their lifetime.
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The biggest surprise reading that is that after the dust-up lawsuit in Japan, Big West filed for copyright in the US covering the Macross characters (including the Mechas).
That's the nail in HG's coffin. From what I understand (not a lawyer) trying to sue for copyright you knowingly don't own is illegal. It's one thing to push your actual rights as far as you can (claiming your license gives exclusive rights when it may or may not) and claiming copyrights that another company (Big West) actually and provably holds. (There is absolutely no way that HG was unaware that Big West filed for copyright over a decade ago.)
I'm going to stand by my original opinion that all of this started because HG was simply trying to bully the defendants into a quick cash-grab settlement. They didn't want to actually go to court: it was the classic "playground milk money shakedown" (except the kid they decided to pick on knows Judo).
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The biggest surprise reading that is that after the dust-up lawsuit in Japan, Big West filed for copyright in the US covering the Macross characters (including the Mechas).
This is it:
Registration Number: VAu-534-107
Title: Macross.
Description: Drawings.
Claimant: acKabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue & Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
Created: 1982
Registered: 17May02
Author on © Application: artwork: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue, employer for hire.
Special Codes: 5/S
Verified through https://www.copyright.gov/ that the above is correct, though it's not showing me what drawings in particular. Either way, it seems to have happened around the same time Tatsunoko was found not to have the copyright of the "41 Characters" in the Japanese case, Big West posted about their win (linked a ways back in this thread) and apparently jumped on getting their stuff together.
Man, I would love to be a fly on the wall when HG's lawyer tells them this and explains the situation.
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Since Big West has US copyrights how much of a good idea would it be to go to them and say "We have these designs that are inspired by yours and would like your blessing to use them"?
It seems to me that even if, legally, PGI/HBS/CGL's designs are different enough to be safe, it would show a willingness to act in good faith (in direct contrast to HG) and also potentially protect them if Macross gets a new distributor in the future.
Man, I would love to be a fly on the wall when HG's lawyer tells them this and explains the situation.
I don't see how it is possible that they haven't been aware of this for the past decade. In fact this is most likely why they had a change of representation.
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I do find myself wondering exactly what Jordan can do to recover the monetary payment to Harmony Gold that was part of the contract he signed that now seems invalidated.
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I do find myself wondering exactly what Jordan can do to recover the monetary payment to Harmony Gold that was part of the contract he signed that now seems invalidated.
That was a settlement reached out of court, it would be a different story is it was a court ruling they wish to overturn. They could sue for damages but that battle would cost money in itself.
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A settlement potentially based on fraudulent premises, which may invalidate it. MAY. That said, letting that stand (and be stepped around via the new Classics) is by far the best thing we can have happen.
God, I can't wait to see more of Shimmy's artwork on reimagined old designs and all kinds of new stuff. Now if I could just get a hardened-armor Black Knight out of him...
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honestly, i'm hoping PGI/HBS/IMR settle for HG being rendered toothless regarding the classics/remakes, and don't push for any sort of compensation beyond the court fee's. pushing for damages or punishments not only could cause the existing grudges between companies and fans to get worse, but frankly, isn't worth the extra effort it would require them to undergo in the court system.
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*nod*
Thinking about it at the time the contract was signed the lawsuits and arbitrations that now would seem to render it void hadn't happened yet so it probably is not worth the fight at this point.
Which still leaves the thorn of the judge could decide the Breach of Contract can stand on it's own.
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except that the breech of contract bit only applies to Weisman.. who is only involved with HBS.. which is the only group in this whole mess that isn't using anything derived from the unseen.
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As far as I know, Jordan would have to sue to have the contract invalidated, and that it would only cancel it from that point forward. At the time of the settlement there were no indications of fraud, and the only overt actions HG's taken since then were the C&D over the prototype MechWarrior 5 video and this lawsuit. I believe the C&D was against IGN, so Jordan couldn't intervene there, and this lawsuit is progressing in his favor anyway. Were I he, I'd have HBS's lawyers move to invalidate the settlement contract as part of their dismissal packet.
By the way, that Harmony Gold lied is secondary to the facts here. A certain amount of untruth is expected in court cases, which is why I said "risk censure," not "will be disbarred" in regards to HG's lawyers. But the simple facts remain: only a copyright holder can sue for violation of copyright, and HG does not hold the copyrights in question. PGI was very smart in focusing on that issue.
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*nod*
Thinking about it at the time the contract was signed the lawsuits and arbitrations that now would seem to render it void hadn't happened yet so it probably is not worth the fight at this point.
Which still leaves the thorn of the judge could decide the Breach of Contract can stand on it's own.
Welllll... going by HG's own words, the breach would be conditional on their ownership of the mecha in question.
The Settlement Agreement prohibits Weisman from using colorable imitations of certain Robotech warrior robots owned by Harmony Gold, including making works substantially similar to, or making derivative works of, these warrior robots.
So unless the settlement agreement is produced and contradicts that statement, HG shot themselves in the foot there.
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except that the breech of contract bit only applies to Weisman.. who is only involved with HBS.. which is the only group in this whole mess that isn't using anything derived from the unseen.
Well, technically, there were plans to use the MWO renditions of the Unseen in HBS' game, but those ground to a halt when thislawsuit started as far as I know.
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Welllll... going by HG's own words, the breach would be conditional on their ownership of the mecha in question.So unless the settlement agreement is produced and contradicts that statement, HG shot themselves in the foot there.
For it to be criminal they would have had to know in the 90's that they did not have the copyrights.
So since this is a more recent issues around 2003 I believe. JW can't get any money back.
As for the contract, if HG made any claim to copyrights in the document it is null and void, Jordan just needs A judge to sign off on it.
If HG made no claim to copyrights in the document then its a bit harder and Weisman will have to prove that the contract was signed under some form of distress,
Or he was intentionally miss led by HG.
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As far as I can tell for the breach of contract there are three basic points that can make it a bit trickier to be rid of or not worth fighting to get some money back that was wrongfully taken as a result.
1. Even though now we know thanks to various lawsuits and arbitration agreements that Harmony Gold never had the rights it was not known at the time so it would almost certainly be a drawn out legal battle that would almost certainly have to be decided by a jury.
2. Harmony Gold can still have an argument that Jordan is trying to infringe on what rights they do have and thus the breech of contract portion of the case should go forward based on that.
3. The Judge can decide he'd rather let a jury figure it out or otherwise decide it can stand on it's own. I'm not sure how it could but he's the judge, I'm not.
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Until the 2002 fight in Japan between Tatsunoko and Big West, it was reasonable for Harmony Gold to believe they had the rights in the US per their original license. So the 1996 agreement between HG and FASA/Weisman was valid. The problem is that Harmony Gold has continued to act as if it holds the character copyrights even after 2003, when Big West registered them in the US.
Of course, we still can't see the original FASA settlement agreement, so we really don't know what it says. I sincerely doubt it's enforceable, but there may be something in there that HG can hang a case off of.
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New docket entry yesterday. HG replied to #55. No other information at this time. Maybe we can rely on the HBS forums for further details.
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When was the court date for the potential dismissal? I thought I read December 15th somewhere, but don't know why that date or remember where I read it.
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What happens if it's dismissed? This keeps going on forever?
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If it gets dismissed I believe the only option left for HG would be to appeal and I don't think any higher courts would want to bother with it so long as the lawyers for PGI/HBS don't do something stupid. Then it becomes an issue of what happens with CGL which would require an actual lawyer to help us out with. So far as I am aware the default still stands, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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What happens if it's dismissed? This keeps going on forever?
Not really. From what little I know, HG would be banned from ever bringing this suit again. I'm pretty sure if they tried going after CGL, they'd be told by a court to pound sand or risk eventually being declared a vexatious litigant and would have to get prior court permission to sue.
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if the PGI filing is accepted, would the dismissal ruling cover HBS and IMR.. or would they have to file for a dismissal separately?
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As things stand now I believe they would have to file separately but once it is approved for one party it should be no problem for them to get their own dismissals or it might even be likely for the judge to save some time and dismiss with prejudice for everyone.
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When was the court date for the potential dismissal? I thought I read December 15th somewhere, but don't know why that date or remember where I read it.
15th is a hearing requested by PGI.
if the PGI filing is accepted, would the dismissal ruling cover HBS and IMR.. or would they have to file for a dismissal separately?
HBS filed notices of joinder both in motion for summary judgement and in the opposition to the complaint amendment. If those are accepted, the dismissal would then cover HBS as well.
If it gets dismissed I believe the only option left for HG would be to appeal and I don't think any higher courts would want to bother with it so long as the lawyers for PGI/HBS don't do something stupid. Then it becomes an issue of what happens with CGL which would require an actual lawyer to help us out with. So far as I am aware the default still stands, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is correct as far as I know. CGL might be able to get the default and/or default judgement overturned, however, if they can prove their neglect had "good cause" or that the summons was not served properly ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_judgment#Relief_from_default_judgment ). In that regard, there are two filings:
Wednesday, May 10, 2017
Summons issued electronically as to defendant InMediaRes Productions LLC. (PM)
2017-05-12
AFFIDAVIT of Service of Summons and Complaint on Loren Coleman, Owner of InMediaRes Productions, LLC on 5/8/2017, filed by Plaintiff Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.. (Hughes, Andrew) (Entered: 05/12/2017)
The latter is NOT on PacerMonitor for some reason, and the former may be questionable depending on how and where said "electronically issued summons" was actually delivered.
My pet theory is that HG did mess up with the summons and IMR is waiting to exploit that for max damaging effect possible.
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Horseman, if that were to happen, that would be delicious.
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Hoping French gets this one today. Copyright stuff is his business, and this is so twisty and weird that it's a great case legally to study - and pick apart for answers and future case law precedent.
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If the court finds that Harmony Gold's lawsuit has no standing - for example, if they grant PGI's Motion to Dismiss on the basis of HG lacking the copyrights - then it will have no effect on IMR, despite them being in default. It is not the proper way to do things, as court orders should be responded to and abided by, but IMR may have gotten lucky.
Now there seems to be some confusion about what happens next. Assume the judge grants the Motion to Dismiss, with prejudice. This would be a solid win for PGI, HBS, and IMR. Not only would this lawsuit end immediately, it would also prevent Harmony Gold from ever suing over this art again. Theoretically they could bring a lawsuit over any new art produced, such as as-yet unfinished Crusader redesign, but in that case the BattleTech folks could just point at this judgement as a very strong defense. Of course, HG could try to appeal, which would be insanely foolish. Circuit Court of Appeals findings set very strong Federal precedent, and for a ruling to be overturned in a situation like this almost requires complete incompetency from the lower court. Judge Zilly has sat under six Presidents now, so I doubt he'd make such grievous errors.
I'll admit that I'm surprised Harmony Gold responded directly to PGI's request to reject the Amended Complaint. I don't think they needed to do so. The judge should have the information he needs to accept or reject either of the Motions to Dismiss or to Amend. Amusingly, he could accept both, taking HG's new pleadings into consideration before dismissing the case. PGI certainly feels they have a slam-dunk here, and they do seem to have the facts on their side. This could all be over Friday.
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Guess we will have to wait for someone to post what that last docket is about to see what farce HG is spewing this time.
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Probably not Friday most times the Judge will hear oral arguments and then take it under advisement and take time to write his opinion. The good news is that it will be over soon.
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only if the judge accepts PGI's arguments. otherwise it'll probably go to a jury, take a lot longer
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Hoping French gets this one today. Copyright stuff is his business, and this is so twisty and weird that it's a great case legally to study - and pick apart for answers and future case law precedent.
I wouldn't count on this, mainly because this would raise BT's profile, at least among law school students.
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I wouldn't count on this, mainly because this would raise BT's profile, at least among law school students.
my understanding is its mostly used as an example of what NOT to do with an IP
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I wouldn't count on this, mainly because this would raise BT's profile, at least among law school students.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
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Welp, according to the thread over at HBS, it looks like Frank Aghrama took some time out of his busy schedule of being decrepit and corrupt to personally respond to PGI's filing for summary dismissal. Also, HG (surprise, surprise, surprise) is trying again to get stuff sealed.
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Welp, according to the thread over at HBS, it looks like Frank Aghrama took some time out of his busy schedule of being decrepit and corrupt to personally respond to PGI's filing for summary dismissal. Also, HG (surprise, surprise, surprise) is trying again to get stuff sealed.
Other than the stuff with Jordan Weisman, what could they possibly get sealed? O.O
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Personal information, typically. Addresses, names, etc, especially of minors. (Not sure why any of those would be around, but who knows) I suppose there might be 'secret copyrighted IP' - maybe things that HG is making, things that were never released, stuff like that.
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Personal information, typically. Addresses, names, etc, especially of minors. (Not sure why any of those would be around, but who knows) I suppose there might be 'secret copyrighted IP' - maybe things that HG is making, things that were never released, stuff like that.
my personal suspicion is that they are trying to get the details of the arbitration that clearly spell out that they don't actually own in any way the 41 or 43, and knew it. sealed but good luck with that.
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my personal suspicion is that they are trying to get the details of the arbitration that clearly spell out that they don't actually own in any way the 41 or 43, and knew it. sealed but good luck with that.
That might've worked if that was the only suspect information. But since Big West has owned the US copyrights on all of the characters and Mechas since 2003, I don't see it would matter what the arbitration with Tatsunoku says...
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Yes and now everybody knows about the Big West US copyrights and the arbitration. So sealing those facts (not that this has any chance of happening) can only be symbolic at best, and can be overturned easily in the future.
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I never said HG was smart.... personally I suspect their previous lawyers looked at the case and basically told them that their chance of winning was somewhere between slim and none and slim had already left the state, but that's not what they wanted to hear so they fired them, and brought in other lawyers, and now they are scrambling to rewrite history and the facts to favor them, so that they can continue being a copywrite troll. and are trying to suppress any facts that contradict their position.
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Sooo many dockets I wish I could read!!!
Might have to break down and setup an account with pacer and/or pacermonitor... meh.
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Only a few more days. If HG's behavior is as duplicitous as it seems to us, the judge won't like it.
As we are getting closer to Friday, I am worried that HG has enough bases covered that this could stretch out. Just have to breathe.
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Sooo many dockets I wish I could read!!!
Might have to break down and setup an account with pacer and/or pacermonitor... meh.
https://community.battletechgame.com/forums/threads/9113/comments/202027
Check this post, I'll update as I upload
RESPONSE, by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc., to MOTION for Summary Judgment (31 pg.) (now in correct order)
https://imgur.com/a/cnCcF
MOTION to Seal PORTIONS OF HG U.S.A., INC.S OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANTS MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND SUPPORTING DECLARATION OF JESSICA STEBBINS BINA (6 pg.) (now in correct order)
https://imgur.com/a/PGwHE
DECLARATION of Jessica Stebbins Bina filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION to Seal (8 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/du6kE
Redacted DECLARATION of Jessica Stebbins Bina filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (45 pg.)
This one refuses to upload in sequential order, and I'm not going to spend the time to get it right - if anyone else wants to tackle the challenge, I can send the PDF
DECLARATION of Frank Agrama filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (4 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/bxGeJ
DECLARATION of Christy Duran filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (11 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/o03nc
This has 150+ pages of exhibits that I'm omitting
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i'm no legal expert.. but am i right in how that looks? like HG is doubling down on the lie about their ownership of the images in question, and then wants to seal the whole thing so no one can see they are doing it?
and then their lawyers go on to claim Tatsunoko has full rights.. when we have public rulings in japan and the arbitration that say otherwise?
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So HGs defense still revolves around
"It doesn't mean what it means"
But we now know more about the person who is using a gatling gun against PGI/HBS
So, opposition research. It's what litigators do to try to size up the competition, and it mostly involves taking a look at who opposing counsel is and what they've done. HG's lawyer is a doozy - graduated Yale law as an honors fellow specializing in contracts, was a Gates Cambridge Scholar (that's Cambridge in the UK), and has represented, amongst others, both the US and International Olympic Committees, and Beyonce. Yes, that Beyonce.
They claim that the 41 designs in question are for copyrights only within Japan... They are most assuredly trying to drag this out by saying they want to continue with discovery. So the war continues.
Check this post, I'll update as I upload
RESPONSE, by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc., to MOTION for Summary Judgment (31 pg.) (now in correct order)
https://imgur.com/a/cnCcF
MOTION to Seal PORTIONS OF HG U.S.A., INC.S OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANTS MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND SUPPORTING DECLARATION OF JESSICA STEBBINS BINA (6 pg.) (now in correct order)
https://imgur.com/a/PGwHE
DECLARATION of Jessica Stebbins Bina filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION to Seal (8 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/du6kE
Redacted DECLARATION of Jessica Stebbins Bina filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (45 pg.)
This one refuses to upload in sequential order, and I'm not going to spend the time to get it right - if anyone else wants to tackle the challenge, I can send the PDF
DECLARATION of Frank Agrama filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (4 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/bxGeJ
DECLARATION of Christy Duran filed by Plaintiff HG U.S.A., Inc. re MOTION for Summary Judgment (11 pg.)
https://imgur.com/a/o03nc
This has 150+ pages of exhibits that I'm omitting
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crap, late to the "post the links!" party
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So HGs defense still revolves around
"It doesn't mean what it means"
But we now know more about the person who is using a gatling gun against PGI/HBS
They claim that the 41 designs in question are for copyrights only within Japan... They are most assuredly trying to drag this out by saying they want to continue with discovery. So the war continues.
Wow... that takes some major huevos to say something like that knowing that anyone can point to US copyright records. That would mean going to court against Big West then.
At this point, HG must be really desperate. I can only imagine they realize they are done so they might as well go for broke. Either the case gets dismissed, it gets dismissed with prejudice, or they can keep going until next year and force a settlement.
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Maybe we'll get really lucky and they'll somehow annoy the judge enough to get declared a vexatious litigant.
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Maybe we'll get really lucky and they'll somehow annoy the judge enough to get declared a vexatious litigant.
Great. Anyone here good at rolling boxcars? >:D
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If the judge assigns punitive damages, and at this point it seems like he should, who do they go to?
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If the judge assigns punitive damages, and at this point it seems like he should, who do they go to?
Most likely he'll just rule that Harmony Gold should pay for the defendants' lawyers. If he does decide to add punitive damages, he'll break down who gets what.
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Well HG has distorted the truth so well that I give a dismissal a much lower chance than when PGI first filed for it. I really need to find a copy of that arbitration agreement...
We know HG isn't doing well, so what do they do? Confuse the situation as much as possible so they can drag this out until someone runs out of money and decides to settle or the trial happens.
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Well HG has distorted the truth so well that I give a dismissal a much lower chance than when PGI first filed for it. I really need to find a copy of that arbitration agreement...
We know HG isn't doing well, so what do they do? Confuse the situation as much as possible so they can drag this out until someone runs out of money and decides to settle or the trial happens.
I have a feeling that if it does go to trail (I am not a lawyer), the best that HG could do is the chewbacca defense.
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HG's winning strategy has been war of attrition, they bleed FASA and they are trying to do the same here. HG also tried this with Hasbro (not the brightest move) so this seems to be their only strategy.
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Yeah I suspect PGI has quite a bit more money at their disposal than FASA ever did for something like this and would not be at all surprised to find out Microsoft is quietly helping finance the defense as they have a pretty big stake in this too as the actual electronic IP owners.
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If HG loose big time I swear Ill open a 20 year old bottle of Port wine (the original one from my hometown) and celebrate.
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If HG loose big time I swear Ill open a 20 year old bottle of Port wine (the original one from my hometown) and celebrate.
We'll all be celebrating ;D . But at least for the moment PGI, HBS and CGL are still on step one of the recipe for tiger stew -- "catch the tiger". HG may have a lousy hand but history's shown they know how to bluff. Hopefully on Friday they'll be told where they can go.
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considering it's the judge's job to call all bluffs, I wish them well.
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considering it's the judge's job to call all bluffs, I wish them well.
Exactly, but judges have done plenty of bizarre things before (and for the sake of Rule 4 I will not mention them), so I'm just saying keep the champagne on chilled and ready, but don't pop the corks just yet. We've gotta see how Judge Zilly rules first.
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I wonder if theres a civil equivalent of right to speedy trial?
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I wonder if theres a civil equivalent of right to speedy trial?
Apparently not according to a quick search
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Exactly, but judges have done plenty of bizarre things before (and for the sake of Rule 4 I will not mention them), so I'm just saying keep the champagne on chilled and ready, but don't pop the corks just yet. We've gotta see how Judge Zilly rules first.
Indeed they have. Some have even allowed some very crazy evidence and considered it perfectly viable. Others have even denied perfectly valid evidence. Of course, that leaves things open for being appealed. Most judges don't care for having their cases repealed, while others feel it is their duty to do what they consider right and hang law and precedence.
I wonder if theres a civil equivalent of right to speedy trial?
"Speedy" is a relative term.
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considering it's the judge's job to call all bluffs, I wish them well.
Judges in modern western courts aren't there to find out the truth, one of the things we've lost since the Roman Empire.
"Speedy" is a relative term.
It all sort of depends upon how much stuff you're lawyer pulls.
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Judges in modern western courts aren't there to find out the truth, one of the things we've lost since the Roman Empire.
That depends. In my country, penal and administrative courts are "inquisitory" (?) courts, i.e. they're obliged to seek the actual truth behind the case they decide. By contrast, civil courts are to decide the case as put forth by the parties (with a few exceptions in special cases), and have no authority to investigate the matter further, as the parties themselves have to decide about what goes to court. Whenever a relevant fact is in dispute between the parties, the burden of proof is usually on whoever bases a claim on the disputed fact.
There was a somewhat famous case iirc a couple of years ago where two law professors brought a faux case before court, to enforce a court decision on a perceived problem in a law that was recently passed. Everyone knew it was made up but I think the court still had to decide it. I remember the discussion but not the actual outcome.
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Ladies and gentlemen, this particular stompy robot forum is not the place to hold a discussion of the place and role of courts in western society and jurisprudence. If you want to discuss that, please do that somewhere other than the official CGL BattleTech forums.
In addition, please remain on topic in this thread and remain civil when addressing each other.
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Anyone else nervous about tomorrow?
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Maybe? I'm resigned to things going wrong, but if they go right, I'm iffy on how I'll budget a feast day after all the money I've spent on gifts.
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Gotta back LG on this one. I am assuming the worst and don't have the hope so many others do.
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Pessimism is the superior option. You either get the satisfaction of being right or being pleasantly surprised.
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Anyone else nervous about tomorrow?
Not nervous, but cautiously optimistic. There's still a lot that could go wrong, but that wrong just means that the trial goes forward and HG is going to have to put up or shut up once and for all. However, if it goes right, they're gone forever.
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I'm not nervous. Either we go back to what we've dealt with for the last couple years, or we finally are free of a yoke.
Being the person I am, I'm expecting a positive outcome tomorrow.
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Anyone else nervous about tomorrow?
Not me. Look, there's two key facts here. One, these designs are not copies of the Macross/Robotech machines. Two, Harmony Gold does not own the copyrights to those designs anyway. Of course HG is responding with whatever they can to keep the case alive, but the truth is on PGI's side. PGI's lawyers are certainly confident enough in their case that they're breaking with the usual routine for lawsuits.
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Even without a dismissal, the default would be to go ahead with the legal process as normal, wouldn't it? I am 100% for getting a favorable result sooner, rather than later, but lack of dismissal doesn't seem like the end of the world here.
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Even without a dismissal, the default would be to go ahead with the legal process as normal, wouldn't it? I am 100% for getting a favorable result sooner, rather than later, but lack of dismissal doesn't seem like the end of the world here.
This is correct.
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No, the end of the world may be that the 15th is no longer the dismissal date, but the 22nd. If I m reading this correctly anyway.
Docket #70
NOTICE that the following is RE-NOTED:47 MOTION for Summary Judgment As to Lack of Standing to Assert Copyright Claim . Filed by Defendant Piranha Games, Inc.. Noting Date 12/22/2017, (Meyer, Ryan)
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Pessimism is the superior option. You either get the satisfaction of being right or being pleasantly surprised.
I'm not sure you understand what pessimism actually is...
But I think that a simple, neutral approach is best here. Best way to face this is without expectation, that way you can either be overjoyed or nothing at all.
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No, the end of the world may be that the 15th is no longer the dismissal date, but the 22nd. If I m reading this correctly anyway.
Docket #70
A day, a week, doesn't matter. I am pretty confident here.
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According to the civil rules for that particular district court, just to explain some legal terms. It's a big document, sourced here:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/sites/wawd/files/LocalCivilRules_Dec17_2012.pdf
The noting date is the date by which all briefing is complete and the matter is ready for the court’s consideration, although the court may not issue a ruling on that day.
All motions will be decided as soon as practicable, and normally within thirty days following the noting date.
Except for same day motions, all other motions shall be noted for consideration on a Friday.*
Third and Fourth Friday Motions. Motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgment**
So basically the noting day is a time when everything has to be done and in for the court to go over, though that may or may not include preliminary meetings with the attorneys or even a beginning of the case. It looks to be that it's a hard date of sorts for the final decision process to begin, at least for whatever motions are made - there's opportunity prior to that date to handle responses to objections and other motions, so it certainly seems as if there's some active trial work going on at the time.
*Curious that they only handle motions like these on Fridays, leaving M-Th for the rest of the major business and 'mopping up the little things' just before the weekend. Interesting work schedule idea.
**Highlighted as these are the actual motions in question, the Summary Judgement and all the responses since, that have to be in and dated by the 22nd. It should also be noted that the only Fridays available in December based on this rule are the 15th and 22nd.
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Even without a dismissal, the default would be to go ahead with the legal process as normal, wouldn't it? I am 100% for getting a favorable result sooner, rather than later, but lack of dismissal doesn't seem like the end of the world here.
Until you put it in the hands of a jury and then all bets are off.
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According to the civil rules for that particular district court, just to explain some legal terms. It's a big document, sourced here:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/sites/wawd/files/LocalCivilRules_Dec17_2012.pdf
So basically the noting day is a time when everything has to be done and in for the court to go over, though that may or may not include preliminary meetings with the attorneys or even a beginning of the case. It looks to be that it's a hard date of sorts for the final decision process to begin, at least for whatever motions are made - there's opportunity prior to that date to handle responses to objections and other motions, so it certainly seems as if there's some active trial work going on at the time.
*Curious that they only handle motions like these on Fridays, leaving M-Th for the rest of the major business and 'mopping up the little things' just before the weekend. Interesting work schedule idea.
**Highlighted as these are the actual motions in question, the Summary Judgement and all the responses since, that have to be in and dated by the 22nd. It should also be noted that the only Fridays available in December based on this rule are the 15th and 22nd.
Thank you, your diligence in research is really helping this thread.
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Until you put it in the hands of a jury and then all bets are off.
That right there is my main worry. A jury.
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Minus points for facebook, but someone on there mentioned in the running thread on this subject that this was in the can for us anyways, because the company that owns Catalyst did not respond themselves to the litigation. What?
That makes no sense to me. I think they are full of it.
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Minus points for facebook, but someone on there mentioned in the running thread on this subject that this was in the can for us anyways, because the company that owns Catalyst did not respond themselves to the litigation. What?
That makes no sense to me. I think they are full of it.
Yes and no. On the one hand, CGL has not responded for reasons unknown to the case and so was given a summary default judgement. On the other hand, it is not a fatal blow (just looks outwardly irresponsible), as if PGI can get a summary dismissal for the case, the judgement would dissolve, IINM. Even if the case goes to trial, it's not fatal, as far as I know, to the case.
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Ladies and gentlemen, please stick to discussion of the facts of this case, without getting into ancillary issues like jury conduct.
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Do we have any details from PACER on just what the default entails? Was it merely a response issue or something deeper as far as IMR is concerned?
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run of the mill default judgement in favor of HG. I don't think anything else will be settled until something happens in the case against PGI/HBS. If CGL has retained a lawyer this may be what they are waiting for before they reenter the fight (if the Judge/Jury goes in favor of defendants)
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Lets hope not, I hope HG gets slapped round the face with a legal brick about this.
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Lets hope not, I hope HG gets slapped round the face with a legal brick about this.
Not only that, but just having all this ... mess be over with. For good this time. That will make me celebrate.
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My main concern is that from what I have been reading Catalyst and Harebrained have gone cheap on legal representation.
The guys behind Mechwarrior Online have forked out for proper legal counsel.
Not buying into the legal system is rarely a good idea and can easily backfire on you even if you have a logical case to clearly defend.
Now litigation costs in the US are steep, and steeper yet in corporate cases, and are tantamoun to a tax, you lose out if you don't pay. Nevertheless Catalyst and Harebrained have erred heavily by lowballing these expenses even if they can piggyback to some degree on the legal work of Piranha games
I frankly think that going cheap is what cost FASA fair justice, back in the day and Battletech has suffered ever since. Perhaps the alleged relationship between Harmony Gold, Tatsunoko and Big West regarding IP franchising that Piranha Games legal team has discovered could have ben discovered two decades ago. Wecan but speculate.
Why say this? FASA didnt have the money for lawyers neither does Catalyst. It is true that it is a common tactic to tailor corporate litigation to drain out the resources of a smaller company, perhaps that is what Harmony Gold has been counting on all this time. Legal fees have broken companies bigger than FASA and Catalyst.
I make my point because there is another way. What Harebrained, Catalyst and possibly FASA has failed to realise is that they are well liked companies providing a service to fans, which garners more product loyalty than mere customers. If my favourite soft drink or chocolate company went under I might miss the product but life goes on, if someone took away my Battletech and I would be upset about it, so would a lot of you. Again that might not matter in the big scheme of things, customer or fans, they are both the same when it comes to fiscal matters. However some fans are also lawyers, and this is where it get interesting.
Do you remember the Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse lawsuit? Gamesworkshop was a litigious giant, making vague claims to IP ( though in my opinion less vague than what we have seen by Harmony Gold) and unlike Harmony Gold nobody can accuse GW of squatting on its IP. Games Worshop also has dedicated fans of its own, especiaally now post management shake up. However it also had enemies in the gaming community in its darker days, and some of those enemies were also lawyers.
Chapterhouse got the legal coverage at the price it had because many of the representing lawyers were gamers with an axe to grind about GW's corporate methods and were able to convince their partners to support Chapterhouse pro bono.
Were it not for that Chapterhouse would have been bullied financially and would have has to come to terms from fiscal pressures long before the merits of the case could be discussed.
FASA died long before the Chapterhouse case and can be forgiven for not forseeing this opportunity. After all choosing lawyers because they are gamers sounds unprofessional frankly. But it can work. So here is where the error in lowballing legal support for Catalyst and Harebrained Schemes is avoidable, and lowballing is a generous term here, if the reports I have been reading are correct one of the above hasn't even got any more than token legal support at all. I do hope that this is wrong.
Anyway, I do not think interested parties would need to go far to find a competent lawyer who remembers playing Battletech, said lawyer might not be happy about the way the fiasco with the Unseen has gone down and might agree to provide legal representation pro bono, for the mutual benefit of taking down Harmony Gold and their BS, and claim their fees from them if successful. Stranger things have happened, and one can but try.
One additional point about Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse case. Chapterhouse made a very good meal out of demands for specificity* from Games workshop which proved very difficult for GW to answer. Even from an amateur eye I can see similar mileage for Catalyst and Harebrained Schemes if this goes to court, and Harmony Golds case looks a lot weaker than Games Workshop's, who lost many of their points in the court settlement by the way.
* Please look this up for yourselves.
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CGL has not been particularly interested in crowdfunding before, for a variety of reasons. They get to make their own calls. They also have access to information we don't.
Besides, it's their asses on the line, not mine or yours. I expect they're exquisitely aware of the extent to which they're liable for anything in the case of a negative outcome.
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my question is I wonder if we will hear anything tomorrow, or if HG has filed more stuff requesting more delays so that they can rewrite history more?
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Nothing new on the docket since the 13th, so 'once they update it after court is adjourned' which might be a little while - some federal holiday coming and all, i forget which one
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As I understand it they can't delay past tomorrow for responding to the request for dismissal.
With the upcoming holiday I'm not sure when we'll actually learn the outcome. I suspect my initial prediction of not until after the New Year will stand correct.
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I think you're correct, monbvol, with one exception: if the judge dismisses the case, I expect PGI to make an immediate announcement.
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For those that don't know the docket updates every night at 11:59 PACIFIC time
Bookmark this link and you will stay up to date https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al#
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Oddly, the behind-the-scenes mechanics of docket entries being filed on cases is something I know quite a bit about from my 'real life'. I don't know which case management system the federal district courts use, but it does appear the clerk has some level of integration with PACER as docket entries are showing up quickly after their filing dates.
That said, I don't know very many judges that wouldn't try to avoid signing off on any orders that weren't critical on Friday before Christmas. So, even if nothing shows up from HG, I wouldn't expect the judge to actually sign any orders until after the holiday. From my experience with the courts I've worked with, it's really tough to get ANYTHING done this week or next week. Especially with a case like this where no one is sitting in jail and no on is racking up fines, I fully expect it to just sort of stall until all the holiday parties are over!
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"Court is adjourned until our families go the hell home and the hangover follows them away."
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So were going to wait after the holidays for this judgement to be handed down?
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Most likely
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Generally speaking if today is the last day to file, then nothing is going to happen until after end of business today. Then assuming something is filed the judge will have time to review it if not he will go off of oral arguments that happened last week? and then take time to write his opinion which can take months depending on the work load of the court.
P.S.
I am a lawyer so I am quoting the normal procedure I go through but do not practice in this field or in that court so I do not know how this judge operates but that is how it usually happens.
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Today was the day for arguments for docket 47 MOTION for Summary Judgment As to Lack of Standing to Assert Copyright Claim, so they may be arguing right now for all we know.
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I just hope we can get this all behind us because the new rifleman looks awesome and I cant wait to add it to my collection!
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Today was the day for arguments for docket 47 MOTION for Summary Judgment As to Lack of Standing to Assert Copyright Claim, so they may be arguing right now for all we know.
If today was the deadline for filing, then I can't picture it going to a trial or preliminary hearing in front of the judge before that deadline is past. Basically, after the deadline the judge will take time to review the material, and if there's not enough documentation to make a decision on, THEN people will have to show up for hearings, and it gets messy and expensive. Since there's a holiday in he way (two actually), I wouldn't expect ANY news before the beginning of next year. Meanwhile, Merry Christmas, but don't expect a nice gift-wrapped present from the judge under your tree.
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I just hope we can get this all behind us because the new rifleman looks awesome and I cant wait to add it to my collection!
It's more like Pokemon: Gotta own them all!
TT
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I just hope we can get this all behind us because the new rifleman looks awesome and I cant wait to add it to my collection!
Took the words right outta my mouth!
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Today should have been a hearing, see prior comments I've made explaining the "re-noted" above. Relinking the PacerMonitor for this case.
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
As of this time, this date, no entry for today's events, I would not expect them until the 26th at the very earliest. According to the court's schedule, they will be open in the interholiday week, so it shouldn't be too long after Christmas that we'll find out what took place - if anything. Plenty of reasons nothing may have happened today, or at least nothing of note.
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About 11 minutes until the dockets for the day get updated. Its 2:49am eastern time.
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Looks like we've got a response from Piranha and Harebrained, plus a supporting declaration from Mr. Fairchild, to Harmony Gold's attempt to squash the Motion to Dismiss. It appears that the parties have mutually agreed to seal away some portion of their arguments. As suspected, there is no decision from the judge yet. I don't know how much he wants to think about this particular case during the Christmas break, so it could be weeks before we see what he had to say.
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Yep, 6 new docket entries. Hope we can find out whats in them soon.
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Why is parts sealed (and both sides OK with that)?
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I badly want to read them and would love to share, but can’t afford the docket reader membership. Does someone here have access to that program?
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Why is parts sealed (and both sides OK with that)?
It's typically done to conceal trade secrets or personal information. If both sides agree, then it's nothing we need to be concerned about. If it has any bearing on the judge's decision, he'll mention its general nature in said decision.
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If this goes our way I could not think of a better Christmas gift for all parties involved! ;D
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Why is parts sealed (and both sides OK with that)?
It's typically done to conceal trade secrets or personal information.
Basically what Bosch said. From what I understand, more often than not it's personal information - you'll notice that the parties involved, early on, had to identify themselves. Many times other people will be brought up, or addresses or such, or minors involved ('defendant's son _____ had involvement input in design of said game' for example) that legally require privacy. Trade secrets as well, absolutely - and don't forget that there's confidential agreements, all of which would be publicly sealed, going back a few decades to the original legal hullaballoo. I'm going to guess that that is what this is mostly about, re: the sealed documents, because the final filing is a reply from HBS (and thus, Jordan Weisman, which brings back the original confidential agreement) in response to PGI's motion for summary judgement. I suspect HBS/JW is weighing in on the situation, agreeing with PGI (because otherwise is basically legal suicide) and the sealed portion is heavily referring to those agreements. And like Bosch said, it's unopposed, which means PGI/HBS/whoever else is there has no problem maintaining the secrecy. If it is the confidential agreement, fighting it is basically pointless and going to annoy everyone - including the judge, by making him do more work when he wants to go home and have Christmas.
I haven't seen the documents in question, so I reiterate this is all speculation based on titles, timing, and so on. 76 comes a good hour after the rest, so it may have been something brought up in court that was later written out and filed directly. Again, speculation.
Would be nice if the court reporter's transcript was available, alas. Here's hoping Mr. French can get to it soon!
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I was hoping Leonard French would have gotten to it sooner, but I see that the Imagos v. Mauer case has occupied a lot of his time since he represents Imagos. As this appears to be finally finishing, it looks as though his time is freeing up.
Don't know if he will get to it tomorrow since it is the holiday weekend, but hopefully so.
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Yeah, I highly doubt Leonard will stream tomorrow, being Christmas Eve. He deserves the time off, especially after dealing with Mauer! Maybe he'll get to get in a good game of Battletech.
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Anyone know what docket #77 says?
"NOTICE OF INTENT TO FILE SURREPLY TO DEFENDANTS REPLIES IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT re76 Reply to Response to Motion ; filed by Plaintiff Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.. (Elder, Damon)"
Went up Tuesday.
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Sur-reply is an additional reply to a motion filed after the motion has already been fully briefed. For example, a legal document such as a motion is filed by one party (filing party) requesting the court to enter an order. The other party (responding party) responds to the motion.
As for what it says... no clue, have to wait for those with pacer accounts to pull it.
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New video on Leonard French's channel, it's not directly about the HBSPGICGL/HG (I am now referring to this as Habspiggyciggle) but it IS a video that goes over "substantial similarity" and the tests for copyright infringement. Seeing as how that's the original claim of HG, whether or not they own the rights in question, it might help to have a lawyer define the terms properly. It's not a classroom lecture, but it is pretty informative.
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I see the surreply and another declaration from the HG end of the oval popped up on the 27th. kind of itching to have a read, but I'm in the middle of moving into a new apartment (needed more space for stompy-robot-centric hobbies and electric guitars). Hopefully once the dust settles I'll have some shekels left to feed into pacer and appease my curiosity.
Does anyone know roughly what date the US legal machine starts back up after new year?
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Does anyone know roughly what date the US legal machine starts back up after new year?
Today (Jan. 2nd), though it may take some time for the judge to actually make a ruling.
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I too am itchy to hear news on the case. I'm bummed no one on these boards had access to Pacer Monitor to check out what has been posted. Hopefully we find out something this week.
Cheers,
Mad
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I would rather a judge take his time and consider the facts then just try to get something over with.
Getting stuff overwith was what got thenIP in the unseen mess in the first place
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Any updates?
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Not yet. We're waiting on the judge to make his decision on whether to throw the case out or to let it progress.
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Thanks Colonel!
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Yep, still waiting on the judge. Now that the holidays are over hopefully we will know something before the end of next week.
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Yep, still waiting on the judge. Now that the holidays are over hopefully we will know something before the end of next week.
Do not hold your breath on that I once had a case go through a full trial and it took three months for the Judge to hand down his ruling and that was a fairly simple case.
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In this case it's only a ruling on a single motion, though that motion could be a stake through the heart of HG's case.
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Better to shove a steak thru their heart. More painful that way :P
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Why waste a perfectly good steak?
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In this case it's only a ruling on a single motion, though that motion could be a stake through the heart of HG's case.
But even then, I'd prefer that the judge deliberate over it rather than just push through a ruling. I don't just want CGL/HBS/PGI to win, I want them to win authoritatively, decisively and finally. I want whatever the legal equivalent of debellatio is to be visited on Harmony Gold. I want them knocked down so hard they'll never bother us again. HG has a lawyer who is apparently good at appeals, and you can bet your bottom C-Bill she's going to go over any ruling that Judge Zilly makes with a fine-tooth comb just looking for that one thread to go running to the 9th Circuit on. So I want his ruling, if it's in CGL/HBS/PGI's favor, to be air-tight and with no room for Ms. Stebbins to have them all back in a higher court a year from now.
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I want whatever the legal equivalent of debellatio is to be visited on Harmony Gold. I want them knocked down so hard they'll never bother us again.
The magic phrase you're looking for is 'dismissed with prejudice' where the latter means that, no matter what, it cannot be appealed or re-filed in different ways to achieve the same thing.
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No, it could still be appealed. But if the appeal is dismissed, that's likely that. The US has three levels of Federal courts for this sort of matter. Right now they're in the lowest level, the district court. If this case's eventual disposition is appealed, it goes to the appellate court, who would determine if the law was correctly applied. Judge Zilly is very well-regarded in his understanding of US law and is unlikely to make any errors, so any appeal seems futile. But, if someone wanted to keep fighting, the case could be elevated to the Supreme Court...who won't bother with it. As I said before, outside of the gaming and anime markets, the case is neither particularly notable nor important.
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I thought you could only appeal a ruling, not a dismissal?
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No, it could still be appealed. But if the appeal is dismissed, that's likely that. The US has three levels of Federal courts for this sort of matter. Right now they're in the lowest level, the district court. If this case's eventual disposition is appealed, it goes to the appellate court, who would determine if the law was correctly applied. Judge Zilly is very well-regarded in his understanding of US law and is unlikely to make any errors, so any appeal seems futile. But, if someone wanted to keep fighting, the case could be elevated to the Supreme Court...who won't bother with it. As I said before, outside of the gaming and anime markets, the case is neither particularly notable nor important.
Unless you take into consideration that one of the plaintiffs is a Real Estate Mongol, who's ownership is already (previously) someone infamous for shading dealings in real estate...?
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I thought you could only appeal a ruling, not a dismissal?
As I understand it you can appeal a dismissal if there is a error in how that dismissal was obtained.
Hence why we want the judge to take his time and do everything correctly.
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Unless you take into consideration that one of the plaintiffs is a Real Estate Mongol, who's ownership is already (previously) someone infamous for shading dealings in real estate...?
"Mogul." ;) And no, this case itself falls outside of the purview of the Supreme Court, unless one side wants to argue that the law itself is incorrect in some fashion. Anyone can apply to have a Federal or state civil or criminal case heard by the Supreme Court, but they only issue a "cert" if there really is a serious question about the interpretation or Constitutionality of a law, there has been a major departure from standard lower court proceedings, or when a lower court has issued a ruling that contradicts a previous Supreme Court decision.
Look, this won't go to the Supreme Court, period. It's doubtful it'll even get elevated to the Appellate Court. So let's stop playing that form of the "what if" game.
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I kinda like 'real estate mongol'. I had this mental image of Ghengis Khan showing a house to a prospective buyer, "...And look at these sturdy all-brick walls! Why, they look strong enough to keep even ME out!...just kidding, those walls wouldn't even slow me down."
Anyway, Bosch is correct, the chances this case goes to the supreme court are statistically indistinguishable from zero. I mean, the judge could take a poo in a paper bag and say that is his judgement, and it STILL wouldn't be enough of a problem to go past the appellate court level. This case is not special at all, legally speaking.
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I kinda like 'real estate mongol'. I had this mental image of Ghengis Khan showing a house to a prospective buyer, "...And look at these sturdy all-brick walls! Why, they look strong enough to keep even ME out!...just kidding, those walls wouldn't even slow me down."
Ghengis Khan: Real-Estate Mongol. He's a Diamond Shark, isn't he?
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And his partner, Cohen the Barbarian. Wholesale destruction.
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Sounds like a plot from a lost Terry Pratchett novel: the Real-Estate Mongol and Barbarian Liquidator go on a quest to find the Nine Supreme Wizards...
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Sounds like a plot from a lost Terry Pratchett novel: the Real-Estate Mongol and Barbarian Liquidator go on a quest to find the Nine Supreme Wizards...
Nine??? I thought eight...
"Ooook..."
Oh right. Sorry old chap, carry on.
"Ook."
"Whoops! Carry me up the Danube. I have a jelly donut!"
Shut up Bursar.
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And somewhere Rincewind is totally oblivious
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SIGH
:)
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I'm confused what going on now... ???
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I'm confused what going on now... ???
Just a recitation of Discworld memes until the judge gets back with more material to comment on.
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Nine??? I thought eight...
"Ooook..."
Oh right. Sorry old chap, carry on.
"Ook."
"Whoops! Carry me up the Danube. I have a jelly donut!"
Shut up Bursar.
nine minus one, technically. ;)
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I kinda like 'real estate mongol'. I had this mental image of Ghengis Khan showing a house to a prospective buyer, "...And look at these sturdy all-brick walls! Why, they look strong enough to keep even ME out!...just kidding, those walls wouldn't even slow me down."
Not to be pedantic, but the Mughal Empire (from which we get the word mogul) was a thing - a wealthy dynasty of monarchs in India, but descended from Mongols/Tamerlane.
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Not to be pedantic, but the Mughal Empire (from which we get the word mogul) was a thing - a wealthy dynasty of monarchs in India, but descended from Mongols/Tamerlane.
Indeed, the term "Mogul/Mughal" does simply mean "Mongol". So actually.
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This is a thread about lawyers and court cases...being pedantic is explicitly allowed ;D
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/909/991/48c.jpg)
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I too am itchy to hear news on the case. I'm bummed no one on these boards had access to Pacer Monitor to check out what has been posted. Hopefully we find out something this week.
Anyone can view the list of most recent filings (but not their contents) without registration, and full list (again not contents) with a non-premium PacerMonitor account - it can be found at https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
The option to create a free account is not prominently visible on the registration page, but it exists: https://www.pacermonitor.com/register .
In order to get the actual contents of the documents, both premium and non-premium accounts have to pay - free accounts a flat $5 per document, while premium accounts by page count ($0.15 per page).
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Got a link to it in my favourites bar. I don't think checking it every day is making the time pass any faster though.
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New development on the pacer link, but doesn’t look like nothing was dismissed. Time marches on.
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Just record keeping stuff pertaining to granting an unopposed motion to seal docket documents 74 and 75.
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Just record keeping stuff pertaining to granting an unopposed motion to seal docket documents 74 and 75.
Both sides asked to seal docket items, neither opposed, so the judge granted both. That means it's probably ancillary information that's unimportant for the decision.
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The update though does indicate that the judge is making progress on reading through everything.
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The update though does indicate that the judge is making progress on reading through everything.
That's my hope. I am still prepared for a few more weeks to months before we see a decision, but fingers crossed.
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This may be a dumb question but.
Did the government shut-down effect this case.
If I recall correctly copyright cases are a federal case.
So would that mean that the case was pushed back due to the shut-down?
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Short and sweet: nope.
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Since the shutdown was pretty much limited to a weekend, it would not have affected much more than any other 3-day weekend, at most.
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Any word yet?
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I'm sure when something happens, people won't keep it too themselves.
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I would also suggest people readjust their expectations of speed. It's not like this court has its full attention devoted to this case. There are most likely many more they have to work through. I think abou has the right attitude to expect weeks and months, not days and weeks.
"Are we there yet?"
"We just got to the first stop sign down the street!"
"Ok, are we there yet now?"
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I would also suggest people readjust their expectations of speed. It's not like this court has its full attention devoted to this case. There are most likely many more they have to work through. I think abou has the right attitude to expect weeks and months, not days and weeks.
"Are we there yet?"
"We just got to the first stop sign down the street!"
"Ok, are we there yet now?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AzodTPG5U
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AzodTPG5U
OMG I almost posted that very link.
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OMG I almost posted that very link.
Well....You should have!
Simpsons....Has a reference for pretty much EVERYTHING!
Doing the mod's work....
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Judge Zilly is also dealing with some hefty Rule 4-territory stuff, so yeah, don't hold your breath. He'll rule on this motion at some point before now and the trial date.
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*nod*
A decision on this before July, maybe August would be nice but unlikely.
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Anticipation.
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I'm still waiting for the judge to rule on a motion I filed in October... these things take time.
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Hurry up and wait, gentlemen.
#81 STIPULATION AND PROPOSED ORDER Extending Case Deadlines by parties
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Look at the silverlining . . . we can afford to be patient and wait it out, HG cannot, they have a hard dead-line >:D
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Look at the silverlining . . . we can afford to be patient and wait it out, HG cannot, they have a hard dead-line >:D
somehow i doubt that anyone involved on the mechwarrior/battletech side is willing to stretch things out for 3 years.
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Did a bit more careful reading once I was back home and not on my phone.
#81 was put forward by the HG lawyer. If I understand, it hasn't been accepted by Judge Zilly just yet. This might be a move to put off the summary judgement. To me, it is a sign that HG is desperate.
So we are in this position where HG can't afford to wait if they are relying on this movie deal, but they can't afford to lose either. And lose is something that they just might do.
Now BattleTech can't really afford to wait either -- at least the tabletop game. We haven't had a major release since last summer and several products delayed or "canceled". Whether that is due to this lawsuit, I do not know. But it does seems a lot was riding on getting the Classics back into the game in a big way.
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It's not the movie deal that's the deadline, it's that HG loses the rights to distribute Macross in 2021. And, frankly, BattleTech absolutely can wait until then. The Macross Unseen are a bare handful of designs out of hundreds. The product delays have much more to do with the change in leadership and focus at CGL than they do the missing units.
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I wish I could believe that, ColBosch. I know that the rewriting of IlClan is one of the big stumbling blocks, but we haven't gotten a concise answer on the Combat Manuals -- unless I missed a final, concrete reason for their delay/cancellation. Both the Combat Manuals and the Succession Wars books featured the Classics prominently and proudly. Then you have the Kell Hounds Ascendant series (announced July 2015!), which would likely feature the Classics heavily. Granted that features the written word over art, but I imagine the developers had plans for cover art and then artwork in the back of the book.
I admit this is speculation. I do not expect or demand any of the guys at CGL to tell me otherwise either. But the timing is there. I am more than willing to be told I am wrong by someone who knows better and can show me where and why.
I did misspeak in regards to HG. I neglected to mention the loss of their rights to distribution in 2021 assuming the contract doesn't get renewed.
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It's not the movie deal that's the deadline, it's that HG loses the rights to distribute Macross in 2021. And, frankly, BattleTech absolutely can wait until then. The Macross Unseen are a bare handful of designs out of hundreds. The product delays have much more to do with the change in leadership and focus at CGL than they do the missing units.
HG looses the rights to macross in 2021 unless T corp chooses to renew them which considering the disputes about royalties between them and HG seems somewhat unlikely to me. I am not saying there is no chance but when you start doing things that gets your licensor upset at the licensee that usually doesn't end well.
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HG looses the rights to macross in 2021 unless T corp chooses to renew them which considering the disputes about royalties between them and HG seems somewhat unlikely to me. I am not saying there is no chance but when you start doing things that gets your licensor upset at the licensee that usually doesn't end well.
silver lining is that, even if HG and Tatsunoko manage to make up.. it isn't a simple renewal of the existing contract. they will be required to negotiate a new one, because the old one is technically in violation of the Studio Nue vs Tatsunoko rulings. so even if they do manage to keep macross, it ought to clear up some of the mess.
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I wish I could believe that, ColBosch. I know that the rewriting of IlClan is one of the big stumbling blocks, but we haven't gotten a concise answer on the Combat Manuals -- unless I missed a final, concrete reason for their delay/cancellation. Both the Combat Manuals and the Succession Wars books featured the Classics prominently and proudly. Then you have the Kell Hounds Ascendant series (announced July 2015!), which would likely feature the Classics heavily. Granted that features the written word over art, but I imagine the developers had plans for cover art and then artwork in the back of the book.
There's a lot more art out there than the Classics that could go in those books. The idea that they're on hold or whatever just for a few mech pictures is honestly downright silly. They simply weren't big sellers, the Alpha Strike guys didn't really get major numbers of books moved, and the line was canceled. Unlike the House Handbooks, it was cut well before they extended too deep.
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There's a lot more art out there than the Classics that could go in those books. The idea that they're on hold or whatever just for a few mech pictures is honestly downright silly. They simply weren't big sellers, the Alpha Strike guys didn't really get major numbers of books moved, and the line was canceled. Unlike the House Handbooks, it was cut well before they extended too deep.
So your saying only way we would get book not cancelled only if it's cut well before they extended too deep? Not trying pick a fight, but it seems we see alot more cancellations because of too much uncertainty.
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They're based on sales of the other books. If the first two, Mercs and Kurita, didn't sell anywhere near enough to justify the (really impressive) layout and artwork involved, then you won't see four or six or ten more books wasting money for factions with even less player interest. (anything from the other four houses to adding in the clans and periphery)
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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58343.msg1345469#msg1345469
The "faction books don't sell" isn't what happened with the Combat Manuals—yes, that's what was said, but it's wrong, beside which I firmly believe that to have always been misinterpretation of other factors. But in this case, that's definitely not what hampered the CMs. It's just an easy response.
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they took a hard detour into Alpha Strike land and it didn't work out. For all the perceived enthusiasm, it seems the financials didn't justify continuing the product line as planned. They could have planned and released other AS titles in the stead of the CM series (for whatever reason you want to suggest it was halted), but didn't.
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I may be wrong, but I don't think the movies is even an issues anymore.
With the failure of Ghost in the Shell, Dragon-ball, etc. as live action movies.
And the screams of white-washing in Hollywood I don't see this movie coming out of developers H### within the time left.
At this point I think its just a money grab by HG to make something off the licence before they lose it.
Now some questions
1. If the movie does by some miracle get made does it revert to big west in 2021?
2. If the lawsuit last that long is it automatically dropped when HG loses the licence?
3. When the licence expires do all rights including Robotech TV series revert or just the images?
4. If a ruling is made before the deadline does it expire with the licence?
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I may be wrong, but I don't think the movies is even an issues anymore.
The lawsuit isn't really an issue.
All that HG would lose is the right to the iconic images. They would keep all rights to the RoboTech name, characters and setting. Sony would have to redesign the VeriTechs and the SDF-1 but the story and setting itself would remain intact. And they would likely have to redesign those images anyway.
And the screams of white-washing in Hollywood I don't see this movie coming out of developers H### within the time left.
I don't think that is relevant here. What is relevant will be the success of movies such as Pacific Rim2 and whether it is seen as a Mecha movie or a Kaiju movie. Personally - RoboTech probably doesn't have the brand recognition necessary to sustain a major movie license, especially one that will likely rely heavily on CGI.
1. If the movie does by some miracle get made does it revert to big west in 2021?
No
2. If the lawsuit last that long is it automatically dropped when HG loses the licence?
HG arguably don't have the rights now. Either way, they could possibly argue the present situation doesn't excuse prior harm.
3. When the licence expires do all rights including Robotech TV series revert or just the images?
Just the images.
4. If a ruling is made before the deadline does it expire with the licence?
Depends on the ruling and what it covers.
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The lawsuit isn't really an issue.
All that HG would lose is the right to the iconic images. They would keep all rights to the RoboTech name, characters and setting. Sony would have to redesign the VeriTechs and the SDF-1 but the story and setting itself would remain intact. And they would likely have to redesign those images anyway.
Honestly, I still think Sony would insist on a redesign anyway even in the worst-case scenario where HG wins the suit and cajoles Tatsunoko into another bad deal-- for one of three reasons: 1) to get as far away from any legal issues as possible (they're going to want to sell this movie in Japan); 2) to put their own stamp on it for marketing purposes; 3) to appease focus groups or others who might see the anime-derived designs as "dated".
What is relevant will be the success of movies such as Pacific Rim2 and whether it is seen as a Mecha movie or a Kaiju movie. Personally - RoboTech probably doesn't have the brand recognition necessary to sustain a major movie license, especially one that will likely rely heavily on CGI.
I think it's the latter rather than the former that would be the big determination. Robotech is a somewhat-remembered show from the '80s for most people, no where near Transformers, GI Joe or He-Man in the general public's consciousness. It's only had a couple of halting attempts at revival that went nowhere (even with Shadow Chronicles boasting some considerable voice talent such as Chase Masterson and Mark Hamill*) and so is there really a groundswell of support for a live-action, big-budget film outside of hardcore fans?
*BTW for an extra bit of hilarious, I looked up the cast on Google. Tony Oliver is listed as voicing "Hikaru Ichijyo" -- even Google recognizes Macross as the definitive version ;D
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NetFlix has 85 episodes of RoboTech on the streaming service under Japanese Movies & TV.
Anyway, to get back on topic, anyone that's read the documents so far, and trying to be as objective as possible, who has the better presented case?
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Based off what I was able to interpret from the Arbitration Deal and it's Amendments and the various documents filed in this case, not Harmony Gold.
HBS and CGL were more drug in by association and thus the claims against them have actually been pretty flimsy from the start. PGI initially looked to have the hardest fight ahead of them but then with the details of the Arbitration Agreement and the Lawsuit between Big West and Tatsunoko being brought forward they fired back a pretty good shot that I'm feeling a bit more confident is giving off radiation and will land where intended.
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So there any word hows it's going effect the BattleTech related properties?
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they took a hard detour into Alpha Strike land and it didn't work out.
More like took a detour into Alpha Strike land before the road was built.
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More like took a detour into Alpha Strike land before the road was built.
Speaking as a fan who vastly prefers the Alpha Strike format, I do greatly hope you guys haven't decided to abandon this untamed ground.
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Speaking as a fan who vastly prefers the Alpha Strike format, I do greatly hope you guys haven't decided to abandon this untamed ground.
What Tai Dai said. I'm sold on Alpha Strike.
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So there any word hows it's going effect the BattleTech related properties?
Not as yet.
As far as likely outcomes no one should delude themselves into thinking CGL will ever return to the old Macross art whatever the outcome.
Speaking as a fan who vastly prefers the Alpha Strike format, I do greatly hope you guys haven't decided to abandon this untamed ground.
Which is a line of discussion probably best continued in another thread.
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regarding robotech...i met carl macek back in 94/95 and spoke with him at lenghth and from what i remember when subject of robotech he was not happy where the franchise was heading and prior to his death he slowly distanced himself from any future projects...his reason was he was getting to old and tired of all the infighting in company over where the company was going.
if he was still alive i would say from that one meeting i would in my opinion he would be upset...he never wanted to fight over images if anything he wanted to use them as marketing tool to bring awareness to the hg(hoardmegold)as company.
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The quality (or lack thereof) of Robotech and its spin-offs is not a topic for this thread.
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Well, whatever happens I doubt we will have to wait till 2021 to find out. The judge would not like how that made their stats look. I could see this case going to the end of this year if there is a lot of mutual foot dragging, but there isn’t much reason for it to drag out much past that.
If the current motion for dismissal is denied, discovery will take a while, even if it looks like a slam dunk either way. If it actually went to trial, the trial wouldn’t take long, and the verdict wouldn’t be a huge wait. This current pre-trial phase and discovery would be the big, long phases that suck up multiple months of time. Mostly because everyone is waiting to see if there is a settlement.
I still don’t think dismissal is likely at this point, but the more we get into discovery, the more likely I think a settlement becomes. Discovery is expensive and a pain in the butt, and I doubt either side really wants to deal with it. I’d imagine conversations are going on outside of the case as well. Still between the lawyers, but I’d bet both sides have made settlement offers and are still seeing if they can get to a place everyone can live with. Those offers likely started in hilariously different places, but they get more reasonable as time goes on.
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The quality (or lack thereof) of Robotech and its spin-offs is not a topic for this thread.
true but having met the man and knowing his opinion of what should had been should matter...
as for hoardmegold they should had divested and given up long time ago....they had turned into a copyright troll from something that used to matter and had say in industry in the begining. its a case of if i have no say in the field i am in anymore i will make sure no one does either.
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This (https://youtu.be/cm3eRmtg3mI?t=30)is the biggest boondoggle of HG and Robotech IF they are referring to the 41 that PGI/HBS are fighting on that HG doesn't have copyright enforcement over
Why else would WB have to license the characters. I just wonder if this wasn't researched by the lawyers and, if correct, shoved in HGs face.
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This (https://youtu.be/cm3eRmtg3mI?t=30)is the biggest boondoggle of HG and Robotech IF they are referring to the 41 that PGI/HBS are fighting on that HG doesn't have copyright enforcement over
Why else would WB have to license the characters. I just wonder if this wasn't researched by the lawyers and, if correct, shoved in HGs face.
While the linked vid was correct at the time, it's SONY who has the Robotech live-action film rights currently (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-03-25/sony-pictures-acquire-live-action-robotech-film-rights/.86380).
And in all honesty, while you can rework the chronological and technical aspects of the Macross section, I can't see that setting film all but resembling "Do You Remember Love".
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Doesn't matter WHO has the movie rights. If WB had to license the 41 then Sony would as well unless they create derivative works.
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Not as yet.
As far as likely outcomes no one should delude themselves into thinking CGL will ever return to the old Macross art whatever the outcome.
I will be happy they resume the redesign/Classic stuff. Way they stop funding the new images didn't encourage me too much. The Goliath and the Scorpion have yet to be done, their not Macross related.
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While the linked vid was correct at the time, it's SONY who has the Robotech live-action film rights currently (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-03-25/sony-pictures-acquire-live-action-robotech-film-rights/.86380).
And in all honesty, while you can rework the chronological and technical aspects of the Macross section, I can't see that setting film all but resembling "Do You Remember Love".
Which could be funnier if the rumor of Sony selling off their TV/Movie entertainment parts is true. Disney-Robotech?
I'm just patiently waiting for the courts to move on their slow way...
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More like took a detour into Alpha Strike land before the road was built.
Isn't that what Mechs are good at?
Sorry, couldn't help putting in a ref at the mobility of Mechs in adverse terrain. Alpha Strike certainly seems that.
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I will be happy they resume the redesign/Classic stuff. Way they stop funding the new images didn't encourage me too much. The Goliath and the Scorpion have yet to be done, their not Macross related.
And hopefully in the future, the 1992 unseens (IICs and 2nd line mechs from TRO 3055) to receive the Classic treatment
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The problem with the movie is that a large portion of the "fan base" people who would go and see a mech movie *hate* HG and robotech, to the point that they're likely to not see it. Also, robotech isn't a huge property. To be blunt, if you talk to younger people, it's that "oh, yeah, show with the giants in the 1980s" It'll get some buzz, but not so much that I can see the moneymen being confident that it isn't going to be panned and fail terribly. TL: DR, Harmony Gold needed to understand that getting a wide reputation as a jerk has consequences.
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To be honest, I doubt that fans of the original Robotech are really even being considered when it comes to a potential movie. Just like fans of the original Transformers cartoon and Marvel Comics aren't all really part of the consideration for the Transformers movies or MCU: the majority of the people spending money on the movies never saw the original stuff. Name recognition as "that 80s cartoon about transforming mecha" is probably sufficient for them.
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Considering the reputation that HG has acquired for itself, Robotech name recognition might not be something that Sony even wants. Basically, a few of the individual ideas might be worth more than the IP as a whole. The legal issues over the artwork seriously degrade what little value the IP still has, and much of what's left will vanish in 2021 when the licensing deal expires.
The really sad part of all this is, not only did HG prevent anyone else from profiting from its IP (which is understandable), but they failed to do anything worthwhile with it themselves (which makes the first part annoying). They probably could have made a lot more money by sub-licensing the rights to FASA or some other company than by doing little more than parking on them and watching them devalue over time.
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Yup. There is no doubt that their reaction to the Western anime craze was just about the opposite of what it should have been. This is deeply ironic because it was Robotech that started said craze. What they should've done was invest back into Studio Nue and Tatsunoko to produce new material and worked with FASA. This could've prevented decades of legal action - and quite a bit of wasted money - on both sides of the Pacific and positioned Harmony Gold to become a major importer of anime at a very profitable time.
But, sadly, they decided they wanted All Of The Money instead of just A Lot Of Money, and in doing so, made substantially less money. Well, aside from their other actions.
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Yup. There is no doubt that their reaction to the Western anime craze was just about the opposite of what it should have been. This is deeply ironic because it was Robotech that started said craze. What they should've done was invest back into Studio Nue and Tatsunoko to produce new material and worked with FASA. This could've prevented decades of legal action - and quite a bit of wasted money - on both sides of the Pacific and positioned Harmony Gold to become a major importer of anime at a very profitable time.
But, sadly, they decided they wanted All Of The Money instead of just A Lot Of Money, and in doing so, made substantially less money. Well, aside from their other actions.
This *one* thing (and I know we're starting to go a little afield here) I almost can't fault them for as much. Not that they're angels (and I hope they get their comeuppance in this trial), but at that time (the early-mid '80s) nobody quite knew how to handle anime distribution apart from getting dubbed and edited shows on syndicated or network TV (such as Speed Racer, Star Blazers and Robotech). From what I hear, Robotech was Macek's Plan B to get Macross over to the US -- his Plan A was to sell the episodes by mail-order VHS. That there, in 1983-84, is drifting into "Step 3: Profit!" territory. It wasn't till the later '80s when AD Vision and AnimEigo and others broke the code on how to market anime properly (as well as Robotech proving that it was even a profitable enterprise) that all the legal and financial and marketing niceties of the direct-market anime industry were able to be hashed out.
So for that one missed opportunity I'm willing to give HG a pass as it was still terra incognita for the most part. Everything else that came after? Yeah, they're colossal dicks.
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Speaking of which, the Armored Veritech image was also licensed by Hasbro to make the original Jetfire action figure for Transformers. Did HG ever go after them?
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Speaking of which, the Armored Veritech image was also licensed by Hasbro to make the original Jetfire action figure for Transformers. Did HG ever go after them?
Back in the day? Don't know.
When the Hasborg brought out the Commemorative one several years back? HG did and lost!
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Speaking of which, the Armored Veritech image was also licensed by Hasbro to make the original Jetfire action figure for Transformers. Did HG ever go after them?
They did, several years ago. And settled out of court.
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Back in the day? Don't know.
When the Hasborg brought out the Commemorative one several years back? HG did and lost!
Keep in mind, though, that the commemorative was just a GI Joe skystriker painted up like Jetfire, rather than an actual veritech model or toy.
Their latest Leader class Jetfire might have triggered a lawsuit, had Harmony Gold not been already burned once by Hasbro.
(http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/9/9b/Gen-toy_Jetfire_Leader.jpg)
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They did, several years ago. And settled out of court.
The case was dismissed with prejudice.
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Keep in mind, though, that the commemorative was just a GI Joe skystriker painted up like Jetfire, rather than an actual veritech model or toy.
Their latest Leader class Jetfire might have triggered a lawsuit, had Harmony Gold not been already burned once by Hasbro.
(http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/9/9b/Gen-toy_Jetfire_Leader.jpg)
remember this one...they lost there was even brief write up about it on a transformers site hasbro walked away a winner on that one but it was almost what 10 years back?
btw this jetfire? does an one remember marvels from the 80s? its same design and probably the best from that time...also as i recall correctly hasbro did have some say in the comic series while transformers were at marvel.
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Speaking of which, the Armored Veritech image was also licensed by Hasbro to make the original Jetfire action figure for Transformers. Did HG ever go after them?
It was the VF-1S Super Veritech (IE Phoenix Hawk) not the Armored Veritech (IE Crusader)
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Jetfire's design is a complex web of issues that doesn't actually involve Harmony Gold until 2013. They're also beyond the scope of this discussion.
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remember this one...they lost there was even brief write up about it on a transformers site hasbro walked away a winner on that one but it was almost what 10 years back?
btw this jetfire? does an one remember marvels from the 80s? its same design and probably the best from that time...also as i recall correctly hasbro did have some say in the comic series while transformers were at marvel.
actually it wasn't even that one. it was this transformers/GIJoe crossover toy, just a skystriker with some rocket boosters.
(http://www.oafe.net/yo/art/gijtfjfhsebrb02.jpg)
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The G1 JetFire model was definitely Veritech-based. The Marvel/TV-show didn't match the model any more than Ironhide and Rachet matched their models.
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Jetfire's design is a complex web of issues that doesn't actually involve Harmony Gold until 2013. They're also beyond the scope of this discussion.
He was right on this. We can discuss Jetfire elsewhere.
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The G1 JetFire model was definitely Veritech-based. The Marvel/TV-show didn't match the model any more than Ironhide and Rachet matched their models.
Not surprised when its the same mech designer
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Not surprised when its the same mech designer
Mod here. Concur Jetfire is off topic. Open another thread for this.
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Wow yesterday was busy!
Docket 82: MINUTE ORDER granting Plaintiff's51 Motion to Amend. Plaintiff shall electronically file its Second Amended Complaint within seven (7) days of the date of this Minute Order ; striking without prejudice Defendant Piranha Games Inc.'s47 Motion for Summary Judgment ; Pursuant to parties'81 Stipulation, the following dates and deadlines are CONTINUED: Jury Trial is set for 2/4/2019 before Judge Thomas S. Zilly . Expert Witness Disclosure/Reports under FRCP 26(a)(2) due by 6/1/2018, Motions due by 8/2/2018, Discovery completed by 9/14/2018, Dispositive motions due by 10/11/2018, Motions in Limine due by 1/3/2019, Pretrial Order due by 1/14/2019, Pretrial Conference set for 1/25/2019 at 01:30 PM before Judge Thomas S. Zilly. Trial briefs to be submitted by 1/14/2019, Proposed voir dire/jury instructions due by 1/14/2019. Authorized by Judge Thomas S. Zilly. (SWT)
and
Docket 83: Second AMENDED COMPLAINT against All Defendants, filed by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc..(Hughes, Andrew)
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Being a legal novice, this looks like it is going to Trial. 14 months is a damned long time to wait.
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Ouch.. found the PDF for the strike and this was in there.
Plaintiff is ADVISED that, if the Court ultimately concludes that plaintiff
lacks standing, the Court will consider imposing sanctions pursuant to Federal Rule of
Civil Procedure 11
I *think* the strike on the summary judgement was due to HG wanting to do the 2nd amended complaint. It hasn't posted on the new site I found though the PDF for Docket 82 IS
I wonder if that advisement is normal or if HG has irritated the judge??
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Does that mean HG isn't so much trying to actually win their lawsuit as stalling for time at this point? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
As for the timeframe, that's nothing unusual. I'm involved in one lawsuit here that goes back four years, and the other side (plaintiff) keeps finding new ways to attack the expert witness (who basically testified in defendant's favor). Compared to my country, the main difference seems to be how long in advance the deadlines are set. Here, the court will usually only set a deadline for the next step or two, within typically a 3-6 month timeframe.
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Docket 83 is the interesting component to me. The second amended complaint looks like it's what HG is pinning its final legal challenge on, and their exact claims in there are going to be interesting.
Damn shame it's another year out.
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Wow yesterday was busy!
Docket 82: MINUTE ORDER granting Plaintiff's51 Motion to Amend. Plaintiff shall electronically file its Second Amended Complaint within seven (7) days of the date of this Minute Order ; striking without prejudice Defendant Piranha Games Inc.'s47 Motion for Summary Judgment ; Pursuant to parties'81 Stipulation, the following dates and deadlines are CONTINUED: Jury Trial is set for 2/4/2019 before Judge Thomas S. Zilly . Expert Witness Disclosure/Reports under FRCP 26(a)(2) due by 6/1/2018, Motions due by 8/2/2018, Discovery completed by 9/14/2018, Dispositive motions due by 10/11/2018, Motions in Limine due by 1/3/2019, Pretrial Order due by 1/14/2019, Pretrial Conference set for 1/25/2019 at 01:30 PM before Judge Thomas S. Zilly. Trial briefs to be submitted by 1/14/2019, Proposed voir dire/jury instructions due by 1/14/2019. Authorized by Judge Thomas S. Zilly. (SWT)
and
Docket 83: Second AMENDED COMPLAINT against All Defendants, filed by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc..(Hughes, Andrew)
What does this mean in english, not leagalese, is it good news or bad?
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Short form, HG is allowed to rewrite its legal complaint a third time (complaint, amended complaint, second amended complaint) and the judge is basically denying the motion for summary judgement based on the amended complaint. Note that's "without prejudice" which, I understand, means that Piranha and the rest will get a chance to respond to the second amended complaint - potentially with the same claims of lack of ownership, if they're not addressed.
It's a bit of a third-try/do-over for HG, and everything now depends on docket 83 which is their newest complaint. Depending on what claims are made in that complaint, what their claims of ownership over the IP is (which I'd love to see) and the claim of infringement, this could still get shotgunned right out of court still. It's entirely possible that, depending on the nature of the complaint, the defendants have a solid chance to have it dismissed because HG cannot hypothetically show ownership. At the moment, since there has only been HG's Second Amended Complaint, we're waiting for the defense lawyers to reply.
If parties agree to roll with it and there's no further motions, which I'm sure there will be, then trial date and pretrial scheduling is to be done about 11 months from now. Granted, expert witnesses are a normal thing in all cases, but I'd like to see what kind of EWs this particular case relies on - if any at all.
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I still snicker at the advising to HG to tread lightly or get slapped by the court. Wonder what they did to annoy the judge... Unless that's normal after amending a complaint so many times. Help us Leonard French, you're out only hope!
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Interesting. Here is a breakdown of Rule 11: https://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/trialpractice/articles/spring2012-young-lawyers-guide-rule11-sanctions.html
Nice key paragraph:
Prefiling Investigation
Rule 11 states in part that attorneys must not file suit without evidentiary support for the allegations contained in the complaint. Put simply, Rule 11 requires an attorney to “stop, think, and investigate” before filing a paper with the court. This requires an attorney to make an objectively reasonable inquiry into the facts and law prior to filing and not to pursue an action that is not objectively reasonable based on the facts. Both prongs are highly fact-dependent, with broad discretion reserved to the trial court.
So not that HG can't win this, but this is definitely the judge saying, "Buy the ticket; take the ride."
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so not being a lawyer
Ouch.. found the PDF for the strike and this was in there.
I *think* the strike on the summary judgement was due to HG wanting to do the 2nd amended complaint. It hasn't posted on the new site I found though the PDF for Docket 82 IS
I wonder if that advisement is normal or if HG has irritated the judge??
my question is what would be the typical sanctions that the judge is mentioning?
I'm also tentatively hopeful because the way I read it, from the update snippits it sounds to me like the judge basically said.
"ok defendants, I am currently dismissing your request for summary judgment against HG to give them a chance to make a valid claim under their re-revised complaint." and "HG if you don't have a better case for actual infringement and I (or the jury if it actually goes to trial) decide that your case is bogus and trolling because you lack standing then sanctions under rule 11 may apply."
which comes back to the question what kinds of sanctions would apply, because it sounds to me that if the court decides against HG on the grounds of lack of standing, (for instance) then it sounds like it won't just be dismissed with prejudice but that the judge may also impose sanctions against HG for wasting the courts time and being a "copyright troll"
now my guess would be that if the court decides against HG (especially if its dismissed due to lack of standing) then wouldn't it come down to:
1 dismissed with prejudice hg is found to not have the rights they claim, no further law suits on this matter allowed.
2 false claim, all defendants (reasonable) legal expenses need to be paid by HG.
3 sanctions against HG?
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The sanctions would, more than likely, just be a fine. He isn't super likely to refer the lawyer to the bar for punishment or call in the sheriff or anything like that. The way I read that, it is the judge warning the lawyer that he/she needs to do a better job vetting the information they are putting forth in these amendments. Judges aren't very fond of someone bringing a suit and then slowly trying to twist it around to a very different complaint with amendments or hunt for something actionable in the pre-trial phase. I'm pretty sure he just warned HG's lawyers that he is concerned that is what is happening here.
It seems like the judge likely found PGI's motion to dismiss compelling, and he is telegraphing that to HG's lawyers. The way I personally read that response is, "I'm going to give you a chance to show me why I shouldn't grant this motion for dismissal, but if you can't, you better stop wasting my time." At this point, I would expect HG to file an amended complaint that somehow tries to address or the points made in the motion for dismissal as part of their explanation for why they have standing. Then, if it isn't a really great explanation, I would expect PGI's lawyers to re-submit their motion for dismissal. If PGI's lawyers DON'T re-file the motion for dismissal, we would have some idea that whatever HG said was a reasonably compelling argument. The next week could be very, very interesting, or it could be business as usual. We will just have to wait and see!
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Does that mean HG isn't so much trying to actually win their lawsuit as stalling for time at this point? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
Regardless, stalling for time, and extending the dates can still be trying to win, through economic means, rather than trial litigation. (While preserving the option for trial litigation at the end of the road.)
There's a lot that can happen in the next few months, but I am not holding my breath for a speedy resolution. Assuming we don't get a renewed, and granted motion to dismiss in the next few months, I would not be surprised to see some of these deadlines slip even further into 2019.
So... nothing bad, but nothing resolved / Continue to wait and see?
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FYI - Rule 11 sanctions in the American legal system are not a fine. Sanctions are rarely awarded but when they are, it's typically an award of Costs and/or Fees. Which means having to pay the opposing side's legal costs or attorney fees.
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FYI - Rule 11 sanctions in the American legal system are not a fine. Sanctions are rarely awarded but when they are, it's typically an award of Costs and/or Fees. Which means having to pay the opposing side's legal costs or attorney fees.
Ouch! That would be painful in the wallet for either side.
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(4) Nature of a Sanction. A sanction imposed under this rule must be limited to what suffices to deter repetition of the conduct or comparable conduct by others similarly situated. The sanction may include nonmonetary directives; an order to pay a penalty into court; or, if imposed on motion and warranted for effective deterrence, an order directing payment to the movant of part or all of the reasonable attorney's fees and other expenses directly resulting from the violation.
It's not just paying for attorneys fees.
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It's not just paying for attorneys fees.
Question: So also any missed profits from delayed/cancelled products?
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As I have read it no. That would have to be dealt with as a separate issue, same with getting legal fees from the loser at the end of the case.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11
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I'd imagine that unlike legal fees, things like profit from missed or cancelled products is too variable and prone to abuse by the less scrupulous.
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Not to mention those usually get decided in something like a damages suit.
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Ouch.. found the PDF for the strike and this was in there.
Got a lil’ linky link for me?
...prone to abuse by the less scrupulous.
I found this phrase a little bit funny in the context of HG’s treatment of the IP in general...
And if sanctions are imposed, I do hope that they offset the cost of the defence to some degree. I’ve heard too many tales of companies or people being vindicated in court, but ruined by the costs.
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https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/5408625/unknown-case-title/
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Reading the last entry, it certainly reads like "okay, harmony gold, you get one more chance, but this better be good."
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Reading the last entry, it certainly reads like "okay, harmony gold, you get one more chance, but this better be good."
If schadenfreude was a flavor, it would be my favorite ice cream.
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Basically yes. Harmony Gold is given its request to make a second amended complaint in light of the motion to dismiss, but has seven days to do so (and seems to have already filed, but document 83 is not yet listed). Based on that new filing of another amended complaint, the summary judgement motion has been stricken, though 'without prejudice' - which means that, if they so choose, PGI can put another motion for summary judgement based on the claims in that complaint. One assumes that HG will have to claim ownership of the IP of those "41 characters" somehow, since without that they're hosed.
It should also be pointed out, very directly, that the judge IN WRITING is warning Harmony Gold's lawyers against things they should already know. Judges do not like having their time wasted, and a direct warning that they'll potentially be under sanction for filing without good standing is way past the usual sort of legal language. Judges don't warn lawyers like this normally, so there's clearly some "you're on your last chance" going on here.
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Wicked Sesame Street drop on page 4, line 12:
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.242820/gov.uscourts.wawd.242820.76.0_2.pdf (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.242820/gov.uscourts.wawd.242820.76.0_2.pdf)
[blank]
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In a way I'm glad Zilly is taking his time. Don't want to give Harmony Gold any possible grounds for appeal. But damn things look bad for Harmony Gold.
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But damn things look bad for Harmony Gold.
which ultimately is good for mecha franchises in general.
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So there's a question, what is the worst case scenario for HG if they lose outright?
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So there's a question, what is the worst case scenario for HG if they lose outright?
I like to imagine lots of crying and eating pints of ice cream at the harmony gold office.
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I like to imagine lots of crying and eating pints of ice cream at the harmony gold office.
All the while throwing all their legal motions and paperwork into a roaring fire... >:D
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Or they happily appeal and send the final bill to Tatsunoko.
In the end I don't think either side will win. Hg settles for a small amount and grants a worthless license to all parties except CGL who gets stuck with a pineapple enema. PGI gets a gut shot while HBS gets to kick HG in the dangling pain factory. That is my worst case.
Best case PGI/HBS file a new motion to dismiss or summary judgement and win.
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So there's a question, what is the worst case scenario for HG if they lose outright?
if you consider the fact that the judge mentioned the possibility of rule 11 sanctions against HG?
and mind you this is my wish list.
1 summary judgment dismissal with prejudice.
2 all defendants legal fees ordered to be paid by HG
3 additional sanctions against HG and or their lawyers to convince them its not worth it to pursue these law suits again.
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Which I suspect won't do much as Harmony Gold will try to find new grounds for lawsuit or even be stupid enough to try and sue anyway and find lawyers ill informed enough to go with it and commit career suicide.
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To what end? Why do they litigate so much over this IP? They do next to nothing with it. It can't be their number one revenue stream, could it? It sounds like they have far more financial interests elsewhere.
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To what end? Why do they litigate so much over this IP? They do next to nothing with it. It can't be they're number one revenue stream, could it? It sounds like they have far more financial interests elsewhere.
Because if they don't litigate, they pretty much forfeit any potential profits in the future - giving up in one case means that their standing in LATER cases (should Robotech-linked stuff become popular over here again) is dramatically weaker.
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Because if they don't litigate, they pretty much forfeit any potential profits in the future - giving up in one case means that their standing in LATER cases (should Robotech-linked stuff become popular over here again) is dramatically weaker.
On one hand I get that: aggressively protecting your rights is really the only way to keep them (at least as far as my understanding of copyright law goes).
On the other hand...as dubious as their claims seem to be as to what their actual rights are...they do seem to be acting rather over zealously... :/
Considering they must realize how shakey their ground is in light of their last arbitration with Tatsunoko and the outcome of the Studio Nue/Big West litigation in Japan, that they (if they truly cared about their IP) would try to mitigate the risk of their shakey hold on the rights by not being so litigation happy.
Best case scenario to me (and I will admit, it is probably wishful thinking) is that they lose their rights to Macross. From what I understand of it all (and could be completely mistaken in this) is that the most they could claim with any certainty is that they had a license from Tatsunoko to distribute the first Macross movie and nothing more.
However they would keep the RoboTech brand and story and everything they created in house. But no necessarily the Macross bits it was made from...
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And I think that's where my thoughts were going. With everything HG has been through, would not the better business decision be to drop any and all things related to Macross (wouldn't that be nice) and redevelop Robotech in a similar manner to the way CGL has tried to bring back the unseen? They own the 'story' of Robotech outright. Take that and run with it and leave Macross behind. But I guess that involves entirely to much common sense for them... ???
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I see that as a good thing, too.
Granted, I really do like the F-14 Tomcat as giant robot in space. But, they could really do a lot with the fact that they have the characters and the story to work from that they created to make the borrowed anime work. It's what would have been done in a movie, anyway.
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There was one bit of odd information in the arbitration. HG can count its legal fees against future royalties on the franchise when they defend the IP. Granted it stated TRADEMARK, but if in their license agreement it includes copyright as well that would explain them being so sue happy. Sue, settle, legal fees take care of royalty payments. All the while they probably get to keep anything from a settlement as well. It's the HG version of a mint. They get to print money and have no real downside not to do so.
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It's the HG version of a mint. They get to print money and have no real downside not to do so.
Well that just makes me want to puke. Makes you love them even more. >:(
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And I think that's where my thoughts were going. With everything HG has been through, would not the better business decision be to drop any and all things related to Macross (wouldn't that be nice) and redevelop Robotech in a similar manner to the way CGL has tried to bring back the unseen? They own the 'story' of Robotech outright. Take that and run with it and leave Macross behind. But I guess that involves entirely to much common sense for them... ???
That would be smart - take the opportunity to reboot RoboTech with new art and modern animation, pitch the idea to Sony for a movie development to spark interest, abandon the Macross art which they seem likely to lose anyway. HG could make a lot of money out of the RoboTech franchise if they managed it properly....but they do seem lawyer happy.
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That would be smart - take the opportunity to reboot RoboTech with new art and modern animation, pitch the idea to Sony for a movie development to spark interest, abandon the Macross art which they seem likely to lose anyway. HG could make a lot of money out of the RoboTech franchise if they managed it properly....but they do seem lawyer happy.
Any real production by Sony would be interested in creating unique, updated designs that are reminiscent but not overly tied to the original 1980s designs (just like the Mikey Bay Transformers movies). Just because HarmMoney+Gold is obsessed with dwindling nostalgia sales doesn't mean that Sony would bank an expensive film and merchandise opportunity on it. The profit-margin on products with new IP would be far more advantageous than retreads of disputed products that have some troublesome court histories in Japan and the US.
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I thing I don't really understand, is why has HG been so hesitant to actually do anything with their IP? They've barely released any product in the last few decades (at least that I'm aware of). And yet they seem awfully Keen to keep it.
Maybe phoenixstorm's post is a clue to their only real interest in the IP at this point?
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I see that as a good thing, too.
Granted, I really do like the F-14 Tomcat as giant robot in space. But, they could really do a lot with the fact that they have the characters and the story to work from that they created to make the borrowed anime work. It's what would have been done in a movie, anyway.
they actually have tried. Shadow Chronicles, Love Live Alive, new comics, and several sequel attempts like Robotech:Academy. the problem is that their fandom is heavily split over whether they like how HG is running the franchise in general (there are still a lot of people who responded to HG establishing a new development team and declaring all the old comics, games, and novels completely non-canon, to be replaced by a new more coherant expanded setting the waystar wars fans did.. worse in many cases, since the ambiguous and contradictory nature of those old works allowed every fan to basically curate their own theories, timelines, and interpretations.. there was no canon, just several generally agreed apon flavors of fanon) AND the fact is that HG's creative team seems to have failed to understand that when you are creating an extended setting via comics and other products, you gotta plan frameworks of what you want out in advance, cross-reference your new ideas with the finer details of the existing material, and most importantly, keep producing stuff.
while their new comics from that time (the wildstorm comics stuff) were actually pretty good, and not too bad in terms of continuity, they weren't really all that impressive.. a couple 5 or 6 issues specials basically. half of which actually crammed two concurrent stories into one issues. which meant each story really wasn't all that deep, though they did manage to add some really good stuff setting wise, including some stuff that helped explain lingering questions from the show itself.
but the films were kinda meh.. Shadow Chronicles was decent, but its CGI effects looked a little dated, and the story had issues with both continuity (depicting many details of the last episode of the show itself differently) but also in general story handling.. some parts were over long, some over short, character development was hit or miss, etc. normally this would not be a huge issue, but HG hyped up the friendly side of the fandom a lot with the way they promoted it, and it just didn't really live up to the hype. especially since it was meant to be part 1 of a series of films (a trilogy, as originally presented) and they left a ton of stuff hanging storywise. they haven't followed up either, which has soured their fandom a lot.
Love Live Alive was very much a lower budget thing.. basically they licensed the Mospeada follow on clipshow movie, redubbed the new parts to fit the robotech setting, and created some new sequences to replace the clipshow part, adding some short visualizations (with narration) of various portions of robotechs 'offscreen' events (the arrival of the aliens from the third porton (while the army from the previous one was evacuating under fire), the arrival of one characters doomed attack fleet, etc. the problem there was it was a mishmash.. 80's animation from the MOSPEADA stuff, combined with shadow chronicles cell-shade CGI for the rest. it kinda worked, but wasn't really al lthat impressive or gripping. a fancy clip show, ultimately, with some framing.
Robotech Academy was just.. a fiasco. they had an idea. as an elevator pitch, a show set between generations, at a trainign academy that has an FTL mishap that throws them across the galaxy and into war with a renegade branch of an old enemy, was a good one. but most of the fans didn't want to see that, they wanted the 2nd Shadow chronicles film. and the plans they had for it would have caused huge continuity snarls (like having the commander of the academy being an existing character. not a bad idea. the problem was it was set after the segment that char appeared.. and said chars last appearance was dying on screen then getting left in a starship that vaporized itself. the new vehicles and ships and stuff also just didn't fit in well at to the existing timeline and storylines.. it soured the fandom and since they were kickstartering it, no one was interested enough. it was clear that HG hadn't actually developed the idea much at all, and were trying to get the fans to bankroll it pretty much sight unseen.
since then, well they did the bizzare robotech/voltron crossover (which seems to have been on guy's poorly thought up fanfic), and are now are doing that "alternate universe" version of the macross segment comic series.
HG has pretty much latched everything on the Robotech live Action film Sony Optioned, but i agree with most here.. there is no way that film is gonna leave development hell before 2021. they've done various merchandising things, but those don;t amount to much. (some ho-hum Tshirts, some toys (mostly japanese stuff repackaged), etc)
i think a lot of the problem can be traced to the fact that Harmony Gold is ultimately a Real Estate Company with a sideline in animation. and they don't have much to work with since robotech is pretty much all they have. i doubt they have a lot of funds to experiment with in terms of sequels and spin offs, but at the same time, none of their existing stuff really "worked" so they don't have a reliable plan to use either. so they seem to have been really cautious, to the point of not doing much to speak of beyond (cheap to arrange) comics and basic merchandise. Sony and the Live action film was probably supposed to fix the financial issues, but that hasn't materialized, so i suspect they're basically in a holding pattern while they try to figure out what they're doing, or some windfall occurs. since in the past they've had an upsurge of activity right after they settle out of court over rights disputes like this, i suspect that they had hoped HBS/PGI/CGL would just pay them some hush money to make the lawsuit go away, which would give them some capital.
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my understanding of one of the robotech academy's root issues really came down to a totally understandable reason it flopped and flopped hard was besides what glitterboy cited as issues with the plot, that the fans (rightfully) figured out that HG really didn't care enough about the project to invest in it on their own. They basically were abusing the kickstarter process "ooh shiny lets get fans to pay for this thing and we can make huge profit, and not spend any of our own money."
wheras if they had done it as lets get this thing done (planned out as if they were going to have to pay for it themselves.) and then used the fan money to improve the production, and or reduce their out of pocket expenses then it likely would have turned out better. That's assuming they had a real interest in doing anything animeish.
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not sure if any one mentioned this...but it seems that hoardmegold goal is to make "macross" property as toxic as possible so no one in the states can touch it and they can retain the rights.
all the talk about the manuvering and he said she said stuff does not tell one about the goal they may have.
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Robotech Academy was a joke from the beginning.
HG has more then enough funds to bankroll the pilot.
Since HG's budget for Shadow Chronicles was less than $1,000,000 USD total for an entire 1 hour and 47 minute movie
The idea that HG wanted fans to pay $500,000 for a pilot episode of Robotech Academy which would be an hour if that was laughable.
In a senses they wanted the fans to cover the cost of a site unseen pilot right out of the gates so HG could putout any old junk and be guaranteed a profit.
Most fans saw through this and choose not to support it.
IMHO this was not a reason for them to cancel Shadow Rising.
To me they where using this kick-starter to judge the viability of using kick-starter to fund the Shadow Rising.
This is just sickening to me as kick-starter is there for people/groups to get the capital they need to bring their visions to life.
The supporters get something and the creater gets a starting boost.
Companies that have the money like HG using it to avoid loss is just wrong.
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Another question: Is the lawyer of HG obligated to advice their client on the best course of action?
The Judge gave them a warning and I can't really see them meeting the stated requirements.
Or was it simply too late for them to drop the case?
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IANAL, but I believe the lawyer is required to advise their client that the client's tactics/approach are problematic. They're not allowed to ignore such instruction. They can however choose to not represent a client if the client insists on (for example) using a literal Chewbacca Defence and citing South Park as precedent.
AKA "I may be a lawyer, but even I'm not touching that ****".
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I would hope the lawyer for Harmony Gold is giving advice as that is part of their job, at least in the US system, but knowing Harmony Gold they are probably busy ignoring it.
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Has anyone been able to read the second amended complaint?
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By my count this will actually be Harmony Gold's fourth revision.
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fourth revision, 2nd attempt to rewrite what they are suing over, i believe.
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Another question: Is the lawyer of HG obligated to advice their client on the best course of action?
Yes. A lawyer could, without such legal requirement, continue to throw suit after suit knowing it would be pointless. Each document filed, every hour worked on the case, gets billed to the client - even though the lawyer knows it's simply there to generate extra money, rather than work in the best interests of their client.
They can however choose to not represent a client if the client insists on (for example) using a literal Chewbacca Defence and citing South Park as precedent.
AKA "I may be a lawyer, but even I'm not touching that ****".
Which has already happened once in this case, remember a few months ago when HG's previous legal counsel removed themselves from service and the case and a new lawyer was brought in.
THAT should say something.
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It may not mean what we think though is the trouble. We're emotionally charged to read more into that change after all.
Plus did they remove themselves? I was pretty sure Harmony Gold was actually behind the change in lawyers.
Either way we need to be cautious about what it could mean.
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Which has already happened once in this case, remember a few months ago when HG's previous legal counsel removed themselves from service and the case and a new lawyer was brought in.
THAT should say something.
Actually I think in essence this is correct, though the previous legal team WAS fired. I will try to find the document again that has some insight to this and reread it. When I do I will post some information about it. Mostly though it revolves around the Tatsunoko arbitration. According to court filings the new lawyer brought in to replace the others was the same person who handled the arbitration case according to her entry in the case. Her claim is that the claim by PGI/HBS is incorrect and that what they found doesn't mean what they say it does.
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I believe HG's current lawyer is family. I suspect that this entire suit is a scam at this point. Someone mentioned before that HG is allowed to deduct legal fees from its payments to Tatsunoko, but if the money is staying within the family anyway...well, it would explain why they're trying to continue with the case despite the facts being pretty firmly against them, and why they switched legal teams.
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I believe HG's current lawyer is family. I suspect that this entire suit is a scam at this point. Someone mentioned before that HG is allowed to deduct legal fees from its payments to Tatsunoko, but if the money is staying within the family anyway...well, it would explain why they're trying to continue with the case despite the facts being pretty firmly against them, and why they switched legal teams.
Wow, that is very interesting.
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I generally try not to entertain conspiracy theories, but I just cannot figure out what their possible endgame could be at this point.
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I generally try not to entertain conspiracy theories, but I just cannot figure out what their possible endgame could be at this point.
At this point, I honestly don't think there's much they can do other than try to drag it out as long as possible.
I really think they thought PGI et al, would just roll over. I don't think they ever expected or planned on this actually going to court. So now they're just trying to exhaust the defendants into settling.
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Someone mentioned before that HG is allowed to deduct legal fees from its payments to Tatsunoko
I brought this up based on a section of text from the arbitration. It stated that all legal costs would be deducted from royalties owed in trademark cases. It seems clear that the license agreement would also cover copyright as well since the two are related and copyright cases would come up far more than trademark. As the arbitration never mentioned exact details I am not certain how it works. Does it cover copyright (likely)? Does any settlements reached get split between Tatsunoko and HG?
Something else I want to point out that I have brought up before (somewhere). I do hope the HBS/PGI legal teams look into the statement made in this clip: https://youtu.be/cm3eRmtg3mI?t=41
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Something else I want to point out that I have brought up before (somewhere). I do hope the HBS/PGI legal teams look into the statement made in this clip: https://youtu.be/cm3eRmtg3mI?t=41
Which statement? I'm kind of confused as to what relevance that clip has.
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Movie rights from HG, character rights from another company.
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I generally try not to entertain conspiracy theories, but I just cannot figure out what their possible endgame could be at this point.
long term goal as i see it? make macross franchise so toxic legally that no one in usa would touch it and as default japaniese companies would have no choice but to deal with hoardmegold as default. this may be a reason for all the delay games they are playing. as added bonus they may not have to get to pat franchise fees either
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My hoped for best result? Judge orders Harmony Gold to close their animation distribution division and bar them from ever filing a lawsuit even remotely related to Robotech ever again, and forced to pay the defendant's legal fees.
I mean, I know that'll never happen, but so long as we're shooting for the moon anyway?
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So what are the odds we have to wait a year for this to go to jury trial
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Unlikely at this point. Judge Zilly gave Harmony Gold 7 days(minutes entered on the 12th are likned to a few posts back to confirm this) to get their latest revised claim in and the wording heavily suggests there will be rule 11 sanctions if he isn't satisfied with the entry. So there are two possibilities.
1. Harmony Gold will get smacked down by Judge Zilly sometime next week and the case will likely be dismissed with prejudice.
2. Harmony Gold will keep finding ways to drag this out well past next year.
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Unlikely at this point. Judge Zilly gave Harmony Gold 7 days(minutes entered on the 12th are likned to a few posts back to confirm this) to get their latest revised claim in and the wording heavily suggests there will be rule 11 sanctions if he isn't satisfied with the entry. So there are two possibilities.
1. Harmony Gold will get smacked down by Judge Zilly sometime next week and the case will likely be dismissed with prejudice.
2. Harmony Gold will keep finding ways to drag this out well past next year.
Doesn't 1 require the defendant to put forth a motion first?
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long term goal as i see it? make macross franchise so toxic legally that no one in usa would touch it and as default japaniese companies would have no choice but to deal with hoardmegold as default. this may be a reason for all the delay games they are playing. as added bonus they may not have to get to pat franchise fees either
Except that that strategy is likely to backfire to the point that no Japanese companies will want anything to do with them, since presumably if they license out a franchise they want it to actually make money.
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The 2nd Amended Complaint was filed the same day so it is already there. Now it is a question of if PGI/HBS file a new motion to dismiss or for summary judgement based on this new motion. https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/20755327/Harmony_Gold_USA,_Inc_v_Harebrained_Schemes_LLC_et_al
Note: Doc 83 also has an exhibit A this time. Not sure what is in either... kids need new school clothes so no budget for the pacermonitor fees. Really wish the kids would stop outgrowing their clothes so quickly lol It is really cutting into my hobbies :P
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Doesn't 1 require the defendant to put forth a motion first?
I don't think so. From how it looks to me(Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer), it looks like Judge Zilly is getting tired of HG's shenanigans and are basically telling them to stop wasting his time.
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*nod*
The subtext of why he didn't grant the dismiss with prejudice for PGI/HBS was because Harmony Gold was already in the process of filling a new revision and if it didn't meet his expectations he probably would grant it.
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So this my be a dumb question, but.
Is CGL waiting to see the results before chiming in?
I mean if the case is dismiss with prejudice.
Can CGL challenge their results and just ride the coattails of the dismissal.
Or are they just screwed and have to start from the beginning?
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Don't know, would require a lawyer to chime in on. I know the question was asked before but I don't recall if a lawyer chimed in then or if people just answered with their own speculation.
I would hope that CGL at that point could get the default tossed out with the rest of the case. Not having lawyered up in the beginning could come back to bite CGL in the bum.
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Side note on this rule 11 stuff, from what someone posted off it before, I don't think it applies to HG, but rather their lawyer, it seems to be a rule design to account for the fact that lawyers should know if a case has a good chance of success but laymen don't, so if a someone comes to a lawyer with a hopeless case and the lawyer files it with the court, the lawyer can be punished by the court for wasting the courts time.
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It's less about wasting the court's time, and more about using the courts to harass people.
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I do wonder how much this will all cost HG -- especially if they have to pay for the legal fees of our team. Does HG even make enough money from Robotech sales these days to have to pay Tatsunoko that much in royalties if they intend to deduct from them?
Considering the speed with which they filed their second amended complaint despite the judge's warning, it does reek of scam. They could have backed out then and there, but charged ahead. Unless there is something great hidden in there, hopefully another motion for summary judgement by PSI will end this by summer.
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They probably get residuals from streaming services like Netflix which still have them on their list.
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Despite the way HG treats the property RoboTech is still fairly popular so they receive money from comics, videos, streaming (netflix and maybe amazon), toys...
Though as I said before, w/o the actual license agreement they may get to keep any settlements they receive or they may have to give a portion to Tatsunoko.
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So this my be a dumb question, but.
Is CGL waiting to see the results before chiming in?
I mean if the case is dismiss with prejudice.
Can CGL challenge their results and just ride the coattails of the dismissal.
Or are they just screwed and have to start from the beginning?
If the dismissal from PGI goes through, then CGL can (very likely) copy their legal argument and make the same claim for lack of standing/dismissal based on the same things that PGI hypothetically would be released on. I mentioned something to this effect a while back, that one defendant can take a swing legally while the others wait to see what happens - if they get their way, then the others can do the same thing; if it get shot down then the other defendants know not to duplicate effort for no gain. Considering how much legal fees can run up when your counsel is doing extra legwork, 'wait and see' is absolutely a legit strategy in that case.
And lawyers are people too; they're all for copying someone else's homework if it's permissible and not spending a lot of effort trying to do things on their own. Everyone likes shortcuts, it's just the way people are. So, let PGI (with the biggest IP backer, hello Microsoft) take on the main charge and if it works follow them. If not, well, now you know what arguments the judge wants and your counsel can come up with a potentially better argument.
As far as CGL talking to any of US about it, not a damn chance. Anything said in this regard is a legal matter, and public statement can influence a case easily. Rule zero of lawsuits is 'sit down, shut up, and let the lawyer you're paying earn his money by doing the talking for you.'
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Two things.
First, would following PGIs coat tails really work so easily since CGL is in default? If they had at least filed a single answer to the complaint (if nothing else) they would be fine, but so far they don't have any lawyer listed as of august. Still trying to dig up more recent information on that one...
Second. Leave it to Leonard French to post a video to help us along Rule 11. I don't know if the video is based on the same rule but it does go over court sanctions on another case he has been following. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znLNjrjC0FE
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had any one mentioned this yet?
https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-23006746.htm
found this when i was looking for something totally unrelated...cant figure how looking for the amazing captain nemo from 1978 movie spat up that result...
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Yep, known for awhile. That would have been the case for the arbitration award.
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the fact that one's details were not hidden away at the end, as HG's cases usually are, is pivotal to the current PGI stance.. because one of the details of that arbitration was HG admitting it did not own the rights to the images they claim to be defending in their case against PGi et all.
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the fact that one's details were not hidden away at the end, as HG's cases usually are, is pivotal to the current PGI stance.. because one of the details of that arbitration was HG admitting it did not own the rights to the images they claim to be defending in their case against PGi et all.
I would phrase it slightly differently, it came out in the arbitration that HG does not own the images in question and has known that to be the case since the court ruling against t Corp and the revision of the license in or around 2003 acknowledged that fact, contrary to HG's claims to the contrary.
A reasonable person (and based on some of the judges comments on Feb 12th appear to me to indicate that judge Zully agrees with that conclusion) could find that in many ways HG is misrepresenting the facts much in the way ghost bed was in the case vs purple mattress and that is why the comment about the judge being willing to entertain the possibility of rule 11 sanctions against HG is that they appear to be deliberately not understanding the concept that under international law determination of ownership in one (proper venue) is also a determination of ownership in all venues.
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Ok, so I broke down and signed up with PACER to get the latest amended complaint. If I hadn't forgotten my cloud drive password, I'd have just posted the whole thing up for everyone to see. I'll still try to do that later tonight when I can figure out what my password is!
Anyway, it looks like Exhibit A is just a large list of copyright registration documents. Nothing terribly exciting that I saw. They are almost all from 1985, but there is at least one from 1987 and one from 1999 as well. Nothing newer than that.
As for the complaint its self, they did beef up the parts about why they think they still have copyright claims that would apply to what HBS/PGI/CGL have created IF they were found to be infringing on the characters. However, out of all of it, to me this is the important piece they added:
"20.As a result of the litigation between Tatsunoko and Big West, Tatsunoko andHarmony Gold amended their license agreement, first in 1998 and then again in 2003, to remove Harmony Gold’s exclusive right to make derivative films or television works based on the “Macross” character images, which include the Robotech warrior robots. However, Harmony Gold continues to have the exclusive right to make copies of, distribute, publicly perform, display, and merchandize the “Macross” character images, including the Robotech warrior robots, in the United States, with full rights to enforce each and all of its exclusive rights."
Basically, they are claiming that the Tatsunoko agreement means they don't have exclusive rights to make derivative FILMS or TELEVISION WORKS only, but that they still have exclusive rights to derivative anything else. I don't know that the plain language of the Tatsunoko agreement supports that interpretation, but that is the core of what they are claiming.
When PGI's lawyers respond, I would expect them to basically say, "90% of what they changed doesn't matter because it happened before the 2003 agreement that changed their rights. We don't think the Tatsunoko agreement means what they say it does, so they still don't have standing to sue." I expect them to re-file the motion for dismissal and say that HG is mis-representing their rights granted from Tatsunoko and the Judge will have to look into that case and see what he thinks it says. That is just my best guess, and it's entirely possible that I'm biased and unreasonably hopeful.
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*nod*
That does seem to be the only real hurdle at this point, if Judge Zilly decides what rights Harmony Gold does have do support a case.
Having read the Arbitration Agreement I'm not sure Harmony Gold does have a case but I'm not a lawyer and like others here I may be too biased.
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I'm just confused as to how they can claim any sort of copyright infringement since Big West (I think, might be Studio Nue) actually holds US copyrights on the Macross stuff...
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Exactly. It doesn't matter what rights they agreed to with Tatsunoko about the character images. What matters is what they agreed with Big West, who hold the actual U.S. copyright to those images - and there is clearly no agreement there, or HG would've shown it as evidence. Big West has clearly chosen to not get involved, but that's their prerogative. It does not grant Harmony Gold any ability to claim rights that do not belong to them.
As I was writing this, it occurred to me: HG is very deliberately trying to avoid getting Big West involved. They're actually trying to usurp a third party's rights.
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That doesn't sound like something that will work out too well for them.
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Exactly. It doesn't matter what rights they agreed to with Tatsunoko about the character images. What matters is what they agreed with Big West, who hold the actual U.S. copyright to those images - and there is clearly no agreement there, or HG would've shown it as evidence. Big West has clearly chosen to not get involved, but that's their prerogative. It does not grant Harmony Gold any ability to claim rights that do not belong to them.
As I was writing this, it occurred to me: HG is very deliberately trying to avoid getting Big West involved. They're actually trying to usurp a third party's rights.
I may not be a lawyer but HG's argument that they own the images in the us and not big west is particularly shaky IMO essentially they claim that even though big west copyrighted the art in japan (proper venue) when they created it, because they didn't copyright it in the US HG's copyright (filed under dubious circumstances) is superior "because they filed first" however if you look the actual nature of big wests us copyright was we copyrighted this (in japan see copyright number) and they filed the us copyright as soon as it was determined that T corp did not own the rights in japan (through theft of copyright by being brought in and granted international DISTRIBUTION rights)
One of my friends says the defendants should actually contact big west and complain that HG is trying to steal their rights, which granted would reasonably slap down HG really hard, and absolutely destroy their "standing" case, the problem is it would in turn potentially open up pg et al to a suit from big west for infringement suits if big west chose to pursue the case.
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Considering the relationship with Big West even if they felt there was a claim they would be more willing to work with all parties involved to either get it as a cheap license or provide feedback to change it just enough so it can become a copyrightable derivative. iirc it was Big West/Studio Nue that did the art for the Japanese BT box/books.
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isn't the claim that they can't make derivatives of the macross show itself kinda a real problem for them, given that robotech itself is a derivative? or is it 'grandfathered in' as allowed since it was made before the rights issue got settled?
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No, that would be within their agreement with Tatsunoko. They could not however create NEW works based off Macross, which is why they focused on the Invid Invasion arc.
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And why in Shadow Chronicles, the original aliens where referred to as aliens and the z word was never mentioned. And why so many characters were changed or killed off.
They can still sell the Robotech Macross stuff. They just can't make new stuff off it.
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And why in Shadow Chronicles, the original aliens where referred to as aliens and the z word was never mentioned. And why so many characters were changed or killed off.
They can still sell the Robotech Macross stuff. They just can't make new stuff off it.
as I understand it their "rights" are rather weird. they can mix chop spindle and mutilate stuff and scenes from the original source material effectively create new scenes as long as they are only "editing" the original footage they can't create NEW footage using those "characters" and when they are translating into other media such as comics, and or toys, for example they have somewhat more freedom unless that got cracked down on as well.
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Which seems to boil down to HG having distribution rights and some creative lee way. So the question becomes, does it give them standing to claim copyright infringement?
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Ok, linky to docket entry #83, the amended complaint:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!ApDHaN8p702HgiB3LYRZwnAJ9_g1
...and Exhibit A if you are bored and want to see old copyright registrations:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!ApDHaN8p702HgiHMTQwpqlbemqp9
As a note to ColBosch, you may notice that HG tries to cover their ass on the Big West front by saying they basically are taking Tatsunoko's word for it that they could sell HG the rights in question. I make no comments on the sufficiency of that statement to keep HG or their lawyers out of trouble regarding making false statements by bringing this case in the first place, but they did at least think of that issue (to some extent) as well. If PGI is able to weave in the idea that, despite what Tatsunoko told HG, they were wrong, then HG is likely in trouble. Especially if there is documentation backing it up like copyright filings from Big West or language in the most recent settlement with Tatsunoko.
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So they are still comparing the Locust to the Glaug officer's pod, the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie, and Shadow Hawk to the Spartan. I kind of figured they would have dropped that by this point since they would want to tighten up their complaint to ensure success. But hey, they still cut off the Phoenix Hawk's right arm in their comparison; they don't really care how sloppy they look.
As an aside, I wonder what financial damages HG could even claim if they won. They haven't produced anything new and PGI/HBS/IMR have not come out and said to anyone to not buy a product. The closest competitor would be the Robotech Tactics game, but ironically how many BattleTech players bought sets just to get the models?
Also, items 17-20 casually fail to mention that the court case between Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko means that the latter doesn't have copyright over the 41 -- nor HG's recognition of such in their arbitration with Tatsunoko last year. So if the judge found PGI's motion for summary judgement compelling, there isn't really anything in this second amended complaint that covers for that key detail of the 41.
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So they are still comparing the Locust to the Glaug officer's pod, the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie, and Shadow Hawk to the Spartan. I kind of figured they would have dropped that by this point since they would want to tighten up their complaint to ensure success. But hey, they still cut off the Phoenix Hawk's right arm in their comparison; they don't really care how sloppy they look.
As an aside, I wonder what financial damages HG could even claim if they won. They haven't produced anything new and PGI/HBS/IMR have not come out and said to anyone to not buy a product. The closest competitor would be the Robotech Tactics game, but ironically how many BattleTech players bought sets just to get the models?
Also, items 17-20 casually fail to mention that the court case between Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko means that the latter doesn't have copyright over the 41 -- nor HG's recognition of such in their arbitration with Tatsunoko last year. So if the judge found PGI's motion for summary judgement compelling, there isn't really anything in this second amended complaint that covers for that key detail of the 41.
How strange to compare mech designs that are from a separate mecha series. The only mech in that group which is original to Battletech and thus I would think eligible to be said to be in violation would be the Atlas. I would think the other examples would have to be argued against the anime they are from rather than the game using their images.
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as I understand it their "rights" are rather weird. they can mix chop spindle and mutilate stuff and scenes from the original source material effectively create new scenes as long as they are only "editing" the original footage they can't create NEW footage using those "characters" and when they are translating into other media such as comics, and or toys, for example they have somewhat more freedom unless that got cracked down on as well.
From my understanding of the contract this is correct.
And also why the Robotech RPG Tactics line of miniatures was not new, but scaled down versions of the model kits.
As they could not create new minis for the game under the agreement.
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How strange to compare mech designs that are from a separate mecha series. The only mech in that group which is original to Battletech and thus I would think eligible to be said to be in violation would be the Atlas. I would think the other examples would have to be argued against the anime they are from rather than the game using their images.
well, since HBS didn't use any unseen, reseen, or classics designs, they had to make a claim against them somehow [rolleyes]
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Harmony Gold is still lying, and that's all that matters. Page 5, item 16 is an outright untruth. They do not own those "warrior robot" images. Big West holds the copyrights in the US for those designs and images. Harmony Gold may have an implied license, but they absolutely do not have the copyrights. Since that is the core of PGI's defense, and HG has proven neither ownership nor proper license of the copyrights, they have no standing to bring this lawsuit. Their attempt to nullify and assume Big West's proper copyrights is transparent, irrelevant, and both morally and legally repugnant.
Since they were already warned to fix their complaint and have not done so, I expect Judge Zilly to dismiss this case with prejudice as soon as PGI files a new motion to do so (or very soon now if they've already done so). I also expect that he'll grant legal fees to the defense and would not be surprised if he assigns further sanctions against Harmony Gold for their attempted abuse of the legal system.
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How strange to compare mech designs that are from a separate mecha series. The only mech in that group which is original to Battletech and thus I would think eligible to be said to be in violation would be the Atlas. I would think the other examples would have to be argued against the anime they are from rather than the game using their images.
the other issue imo using the claiming the atlas is a derivative armored veritech is if the PGI brings in the history of the atlas, an original battletech mech designed in house, is just show the evolution of that from its TRO 3025 initial appearance to the present and while I don't necessarily like the new atlas it is clearly derived from the old atlas.
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So they are still comparing the Locust to the Glaug officer's pod, the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie, and Shadow Hawk to the Spartan. I kind of figured they would have dropped that by this point since they would want to tighten up their complaint to ensure success. But hey, they still cut off the Phoenix Hawk's right arm in their comparison; they don't really care how sloppy they look.
As an aside, I wonder what financial damages HG could even claim if they won. They haven't produced anything new and PGI/HBS/IMR have not come out and said to anyone to not buy a product. The closest competitor would be the Robotech Tactics game, but ironically how many BattleTech players bought sets just to get the models?
Also, items 17-20 casually fail to mention that the court case between Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko means that the latter doesn't have copyright over the 41 -- nor HG's recognition of such in their arbitration with Tatsunoko last year. So if the judge found PGI's motion for summary judgement compelling, there isn't really anything in this second amended complaint that covers for that key detail of the 41.
Ignorance of an illegal action has never and never will be a defenses in the U.S. court system.
example: if a pawnshop buys stole merchandise they have no legal standing to get back their money or keep the item form the true owner.
If you pay for something from someone who has no claim to said item you can not use it as a defenses that because you did not know you own the item in question.
This is another smoke and mirrors defenses by HG to delay the courts decision and get PGI/HS to settle out of court where they can run them through the ringer.
But as they failed to realize in the Hasbro lawsuit, PGI has a big money silent partner.
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well, since HBS didn't use any unseen, reseen, or classics designs, they had to make a claim against them somehow [rolleyes]
For some reason I think it would be really funny if they did not realize that those were mecha from another anime series in the first place.
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It just dawned on me the probable reason that CGL has been quite through most of this case.
And I could be wrong and know we will not get an answer.
But could it be that CGL is in negotiations with Big West for the images or the rights to create deviations of said images?
Since if this goes the way we all think they will have to in the end.
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...oh, and if Judge Zilly affirms that Big West is the copyright holder, he can permanently block Harmony Gold from ever bringing another lawsuit based on any of the "41 images" again.
Let's be clear: copyright holders are under no obligation to defend their copyrights. This does not give anyone else the right to sue over said rights. Here's a parallel near and dear to us. Sarna.net reproduces material that is the copyright of Topps, Inc. Topps has chosen to allow this usage by not taking legal action against Sarna - an implicit license, in the eyes of the law. If I start up my own BattleTech Wiki, Sarna cannot sue me claiming violation of copyright. For that matter, IMR/CGL cannot sue me either! Only Topps can do so, since they are the actual copyright holder, unless they have specifically granted that right (really, that responsibility) to IMR/CGL.
It just dawned on me the probable reason that CGL has been quite through most of this case.
And I could be wrong and know we will not get an answer.
But could it be that CGL is in negotiations with Big West for the images or the rights to create deviations of said images.
No, I think it's because IMR is not legally responsible. As I said above, Topps is the BattleTech IP owner. I do believe IMR should've responded in some fashion, but I do believe they will dodge the bullet on this one.
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It just dawned on me the probable reason that CGL has been quite through most of this case.
And I could be wrong and know we will not get an answer.
But could it be that CGL is in negotiations with Big West for the images or the rights to create deviations of said images?
Since if this goes the way we all think they will have to in the end.
At this point the price tag would be too expensive for CGL to make such a deal.
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At this point the price tag would be too expensive for CGL to make such a deal.
Why would they need to make such a deal anyway, when they're redoing them as new machines that aren't the Macross originals? Problem's already solved.
While the Japanese court decisions limited Tatsunokos right to make derivative works based on the Macross characters, they confirmed that Tatsunoko owned the copyright in the Macross series to the exclusion of Big West and Studio Nue, and that Tatsunoko owned the exclusive right to license Macross internationally, thereby validating Tatsunokos exclusive license of the Macross copyright and related international rights to Harmony Gold.
Except that's not true at all. Wow.
Is it just me or is this a retread of their original complaint with no real differences at all, other than acknowledging that there was an arbitration but completely misrepresenting what the arbitration ruling determined?
Harmony Gold and Weisman entered into a contract (i.e., the Settlement Agreement) in December 1996, which is still valid and in effect today. The Settlement Agreement prohibits Weisman from using colorable imitations of certain Robotech warrior robots owned by Harmony Gold, including making works substantially similar to, or making derivative works of, these warrior robots.
Colorable imitations? That...is a remarkably specific point, so does it mean that Weisman can not use lineart but can use pre-colored imagery? I'd love to know more about that particular bit of the agreement.
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No, I think it's because IMR is not legally responsible. As I said above, Topps is the BattleTech IP owner. I do believe IMR should've responded in some fashion, but I do believe they will dodge the bullet on this one.
Ah, I didn't even think about that. It makes sense though. I imagine IMR/CGL would have been in talks with Topps from the start. I can see the Topps legal team ordering IMR to keep quiet and let the mistake just happen.
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Why would they need to make such a deal anyway, when they're redoing them as new machines that aren't the Macross originals?
Which is a sentiment I agree with. Which is backed up by every public statement on the matter by CGL leadership to date, that they will never use out of house art ever again even if they have a valid license for it.
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It just dawned on me the probable reason that CGL has been quite through most of this case.
And I could be wrong and know we will not get an answer.
But could it be that CGL is in negotiations with Big West for the images or the rights to create deviations of said images?
Since if this goes the way we all think they will have to in the end.
No, as CosBosch said above CGL don't own the IP: Topps does. And frankly I don't think Topps would be interested in going to any such trouble. They probably only care about the IP only as far as getting regular licensing fees from IMR.
IMR should have responded to the suit: it looks very bad that they didn't. However my own suspicion is that they simply don't have the funds to afford an attorney. (But again: just my opinion.)
EDIT: Are the new redrawn designs 100% safe though if Big West were to pursue over them (not that I think that likely)? What's the cutoff between "inspired by" and "derivative"?
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At best, CGL could go to Big West/Studio Nue and show off their images and ask if they feel that it is a copyright violation and then decide what to do from there. About the same as I have said before really.
Also as I have mentioned before. The ONLY reason to bring HBS into this is to drag up the old settlement agreement to show the judge "See they did it before! Look look aren't I smart!?!" Nevermind the fact that the images chosen look nothing like what the claim, have never been owned by HG, and aren't even from the same source. Which to me is the same reason HG didn't go after CGL for the Shadow Hawk, Locust, Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, or Wasp.
The last three being the reimagined Unseen keep the same appeal as the original and may look close enough, but then again they also look like everything else at the same time. If you look at all the mecha art out there, all the miniatures, anime, everything, you see that A LOT of it looks alike in some way. Even some of the more outlandish designs share traits with other outlandish designs.
However my own suspicion is that they simply don't have the funds to afford an attorney. (But again: just my opinion.)
I am of the opposite opinion. If they had to go this alone then yes, I doubt they would have the money. PGI is taking charge of this and HBS is just copying what PGI does for the most part. CGL on the other hand could do even less for the same result. I think they just didn't even want to bother with it. Even though they told us it was being taken care of.
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There is also the distinct possibility that their lawyer told them not to respond. In any case, it's really moot. I cannot see how HG has a case left.
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...you know, the more I think about this, the angrier I am getting. I'll grant you, I've had a really bad week, but to see this utter horse crap being pulled by Harmony Gold just about puts me over the edge. It's not even that it's BattleTech, as I don't know if I even bought a single BT item - new or used - in the last year. It's just the sheer, utter gall of this pack of criminals trying to use the US legal system to get their undeserved way, and their continued lies in pursuit of that goal.
I really hope that Judge Zilly throws several heavy books at them.
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There is also the distinct possibility that their lawyer told them not to respond. In any case, it's really moot.
Not respond to a case? What purpose would that serve?
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In this particular situation it could save CGL a lot of lawyer fees that they can't front financially.
I say front because even if legal fees are awarded to the defense that doesn't happen until after the trial(I also would not be surprised if actually collecting on said fees takes another legal battle) the lawyer still needs to be paid now.
With everything in evidence the case against CGL should be so trivial to win in CGL's favor that they can wait and let the other defendants burden the financial costs for them.
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Not respond to a case? What purpose would that serve?
I never said it was good advice. Obviously lawyers can make mistakes. Just look at what HG's team is doing.
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As long as they respond at some point I do suspect CGL will be fine though.
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At best, CGL could go to Big West/Studio Nue and show off their images and ask if they feel that it is a copyright violation and then decide what to do from there. About the same as I have said before really.
Yeah. But, there is the possibility of pitching a miniatures game with their designs. O:-)
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I never said it was good advice. Obviously lawyers can make mistakes. Just look at what HG's team is doing.
It's a shame ACP prevents HG's previous legal team from discussing the merits of the case, why they are no longer part of the case, and so on...
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All I want out of this whole mess is to be able to get the redesigned classics, I have 2 of the new wasp waiting patiently for their brothers!
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Changed in the complaint.
pg3 10 1AC
This case involves animated giant warrior robots. In about 1980, Japan-based
Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. (“Tatsunoko”), created a series of original warrior robots
and incorporated them into an animated television series in Japan named “Macross.” Tatsunoko
was the exclusive owner and producer of the Macross television series in Japan.
pg3 10 2AC
This case involves animated giant warrior robots. In or around 1982, Japan-based Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. (“Tatsunoko”), together with Japan-based Big West and Studio Nue, created a series of original warrior robots and incorporated them into an animated television series in Japan named “Macross.” Although ownership in various elements of “Macross” was jointly held by Tatsunoko, Big West, and Studio Nue, by agreement between the parties, Tatsunoko has always had the exclusive right to license “Macross” internationally, including all international rights in and to the characters and artwork contained in “Macross.”
There are other changes like this. Page 4 paragraph 12 nearly doubles in the 2AC. In it the wording changes considerably, adding
Harmony Gold’s exclusive license to “Macross” expressly included all rights to the artwork, animation, and characters contained in “Macross” including all rights to exclusively exploit the artwork, animation, and characters.
This would have been fine for 1984, but they continue pushing this even going over the history of the battle between Big West and Tatsunoko in which HG doesn't even mention that Big West owns the copyright for the 41 and muddles over it with the exception of
Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold amended their license agreement, first in 1998 and then again in 2003, to remove Harmony Gold’s exclusive right to make derivative films or television works based on the “Macross” character images, which include the Robotech warrior robots.
Usually that should mean they don't have legal copyright to make derivatives... Did they shoot themselves in the foot??
At any rate, overall the two complaints are the same which nothing new added other than a larger history lesson and HGs lawyers showing off their foot in mouth disease.
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sounds like, despite all evidence to the contrary (quite a bit of it coming from their own lawyers in the arbitration), they are claiming they still own those images, they just aren't allowed to use them.
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So...at what point does it stop being "you're a bad lawyer" and start becoming "this is criminally actionable?" I'm asking for a friend.
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So...at what point does it stop being "you're a bad lawyer" and start becoming "this is criminally actionable?" I'm asking for a friend.
Hmm... maybe we should ask honestmatressreviews.com or perhaps Ghost Bed lol
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So...at what point does it stop being "you're a bad lawyer" and start becoming "this is criminally actionable?" I'm asking for a friend.
So... fire & blood?
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So...at what point does it stop being "you're a bad lawyer" and start becoming "this is criminally actionable?" I'm asking for a friend.
I think the judge on this case might let us know soon.
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Soon is relative, IIRC the schedule was that these cases are heard on the 3rd and 4th Fridays. Since the court has one last swing at it this month (the 23rd) it might be a little bit before we hear anything. And that's assuming the judge jumps on it immediately; notice the several-month gaps between each 'round' of actions and responses. Granted, all this happened in December, so...probably April, I'm thinking. I'll put my penny bet on an update on April 20 or 27.
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I'd like to get excited by the surety about the lack of HG's case expressed repeatedly... but I do wonder how valid that surety is. If it really was so slam dunk that HG's got no case, I'm not sure this would still be going.
Don't get me wrong... I sure as hell hope they have no case. I just wonder if we've got too much skin in the fight to be objective. To say nothing of the technical expertise to even know, assuming we even were sufficiently impartial.
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Much bigger companies sue with much thinner justifications than this. Crytek is currently suing a game manufacturer (Leonard French has been following it) where the entire existence of the claim comes down to the word 'exclusive' and their license that permitted a manufacturer to create their game, giving them exclusive permission to use the Cry engine software to make it. That company switched to a different engine, and now Crytek is suing them trying to claim that their exclusive permission REALLY meant that this manufacturer could by contract ONLY use Crytek's software and noone else's at all.
It's stupid and blindingly obviously wrong.
But until a judge officially says so, it's not 'real' yet.
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I'd like to get excited by the surety about the lack of HG's case expressed repeatedly... but I do wonder how valid that surety is. If it really was so slam dunk that HG's got no case, I'm not sure this would still be going.
Don't get me wrong... I sure as hell hope they have no case. I just wonder if we've got too much skin in the fight to be objective. To say nothing of the technical expertise to even know, assuming we even were sufficiently impartial.
If you check back at the beginning of this thread, I was actually more on HG's side. By that, I mean that I could see how some of the mecha designs were similar enough that I could see how this issue could use a review. But I've learned a lot more about HG since then, and about copyright law.
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I still have this little nugget of doubt about Harmony Gold indeed having the distribution rights and that being enough to carry a case but I do suspect Judge Zilly is just being thorough and trying to make sure he isn't making decisions that can be grounds for appeal.
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I still have this little nugget of doubt about Harmony Gold indeed having the distribution rights and that being enough to carry a case but I do suspect Judge Zilly is just being thorough and trying to make sure he isn't making decisions that can be grounds for appeal.
That is part of his job, to make sure both sides have an adequate opportunity to make their cases. I believe this is also the first time we've seen him lay out the total road map leading up to the trial; before only a tentative trial date was given. I do not believe he will tolerate any attempts to drag things out, which is part of why I do believe he'll throw this amended complaint out and grant a motion to dismiss.
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*nod*
It is just one of those things where I wish he would hurry up but still I appreciate him being frankly a lot more generous towards Harmony Gold than I think I would be in his place and thus ensuring nothing can be appealed based on his actions.
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*nod*
It is just one of those things where I wish he would hurry up but still I appreciate him being frankly a lot more generous towards Harmony Gold than I think I would be in his place and thus ensuring nothing can be appealed based on his actions.
IMHO He has to be to insure that the case is over.
If he was to dismiss the case outright they could always come back with the "we were not given a chance to modify the complaint" Defense and appeal.
This way it shows that they where informed of what was wrong in the complaint and failed to rectify the errors.
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Actually I'm pretty sure that normally distribution rights would give you enough to sue, their actually at least partially useless without. Nintendo US wouldn't be able to sue anyone for making pirate copies of Nintendo games without.
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.....
That is not the same thing at all.
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Actually I'm pretty sure that normally distribution rights would give you enough to sue, their actually at least partially useless without. Nintendo US wouldn't be able to sue anyone for making pirate copies of Nintendo games without.
While you are sort of correct the problem is that the cases are totally different.
Nintendo, US, is a division of Nintendo it's only different for certain trade, finance, and service functions.
HG is a licenseor of another property it would be kind of like saying, if you were a landlord that your renters could sue people on your behalf just because they feel like doing it. Additionally HG is claiming, that their license and the fact that they took out copyrights means that they own the images in question and the actual creators don't (at least in the US) which is contrary to copyright law as I understand it.
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Also, Judge Zilly expressly brought up Rule 11 as one big STOP sign for HG. That is something that doesn't happen unless one party is acting particularly egregiously.
I know we don't want to get too hopeful that we shut ourselves off to a negative result, but that Rule 11 thing is big.
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just came across this on the Nerdist https://nerdist.com/robotech-brian-wood-new-series-interview/. HG and Titan Comics are rebooting Robotech as a new comic. Wonder how derivative their works are going to be to the "41"
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Well besides the more humanesque look in the characters, I'd say this version is starting right back at the start.
So I'd say HG is gonna claim their hold on the Robotech versions of the 41.
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that one started last year. it basically an alternate universe type set up with some major changes to the story. i beleive i'd already mentioned that earlier in the thread actually, just not by name. (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58142.msg1385890#msg1385890)
the first issue had major deviations and apparently they just piled on over those first issues as a ripple effect.
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that one started last year. it basically an alternate universe type set up with some major changes to the story. i beleive i'd already mentioned that earlier in the thread actually, just not by name. (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58142.msg1385890#msg1385890)
the first issue had major deviations and apparently they just piled on over those first issues as a ripple effect.
You forgot the Overbite they gave Bretai. We already generated 13+ pages nerding about it on Macross World's forums already. Needless to say, It's stupid (that comic)
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i actually haven't read it myself, other than the couple pages of the 1st issue they used as a teaser. most of my knowledge of it is 2nd hand, so i'm not gonna be specific on it.
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Titian Comics post some teasers on their site. I'm personally more interested in their republishing of The Forever War and Forever Free that apparently fell of the face of the earth (but that's another topic for another day)
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Movement!
85 answer Answer to Amended Complaint Mon 10:10 PM
ANSWER to83 Amended Complaint (Second) and Affirmative Defenses by Harebrained Holdings, Inc., Harebrained Schemes LLC, Jordan Weisman.(Corning, James)
84 answer Answer to Amended Complaint Mon 2:20 PM
ANSWER to83 Amended Complaint and Affirmative Defenses with JURY DEMAND by Piranha Games, Inc..(Meiklejohn, Paul)
Man, I can't wait to see the text of these answers. PGI seems to be saying 'catch me outside, how bout dat' and it's interesting to see their co-defendants writing in as well. Like I said, the easiest thing to do is let one of them make their argument and see if it works, then follow that same argument for your own clearance. That HHI is answering could be any number of things, but I wonder if they're going to adopt a different strategy - PGI forces the jury trial, while HHI goes for a different solution, just to back HG up against the wall?
Definitely want those PDFs.
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I will more than likely pony up for them, but probably not until tonight.
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Deeply appreciated sir.
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From Kevin Siembieda, "So it is with sadness and tremendous heartbreak that I announce that, despite our best efforts, we are unable to produce the Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two rewards. Moreover, after proudly carrying the legacy of Robotech® in the role-playing games medium for 30 years, (Palladium Books') license has expired and is not being renewed."
The timing of this seems to be a bit... conspicuous.
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Where the hell did you find this?!
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Where the hell did you find this?!
Someone in a different thread said it was sent out to the Kickstarter backers.
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From Kevin Siembieda, "So it is with sadness and tremendous heartbreak that I announce that, despite our best efforts, we are unable to produce the Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two rewards. Moreover, after proudly carrying the legacy of Robotech® in the role-playing games medium for 30 years, (Palladium Books') license has expired and is not being renewed."
The timing of this seems to be a bit... conspicuous.
Do we dare to imagine...?
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I posted it down in Off Topic. I am on the Kickstarter site right now. Huge rage there. I feel it is some sort of cosmic convergence when HBS announced their April launch window today.
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I posted it down in Off Topic. I am on the Kickstarter site right now. Huge rage there. I feel it is some sort of cosmic convergence when HBS announced their April launch window today.
I saw, and heard from other sources as well. I re-posted in this thread as I felt if might be more then a little relevant.
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For those interested... The link to the Kickstarter page can be found here.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/2124551
Being an outsider to the whole thing without investment in the kickstarter has me filled with shadenfreud! The only way this could be better is if HG looses the court case!
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Being an outsider to the whole thing without investment in the kickstarter has me filled with shadenfreud! The only way this could be better is if HG looses the court case!
I for one feel bad for the ones who bought into it (even if Palladium's promises had always seemed shaky at best). It wasn't their fault Catalyst got caught up in another lawsuit with a completely different foe.
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Makes me wonder if Tatsunoko is getting blow back from Big West of the use of the images of the Macross stuff outside of HGs license which probably doesn't cover sub-licensing.
That, or palladium did something to piss off HG.
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Makes me wonder if Tatsunoko is getting blow back from Big West of the use of the images of the Macross stuff outside of HGs license which probably doesn't cover sub-licensing.
That, or palladium did something to piss off HG.
Or, it could be just as advertised -- the license expired and HG declined to renew. It could be that given that there's only a few years that HG themselves have left to flog what remains of Robotech's carcass, that it may not have been worth it to keep the relationship going.
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Makes me wonder if Tatsunoko is getting blow back from Big West of the use of the images of the Macross stuff outside of HGs license which probably doesn't cover sub-licensing.
That, or palladium did something to piss off HG.
Honestly, reading the post suggests that Palladium simply couldn't afford to finish the project or find investors to help them do it.
(Though the lawsuit could also make investors gun-shy if they're canny enough to notice that Harmony Gold's rights to hand out those images is currently under question).
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I for one feel bad for the ones who bought into it (even if Palladium's promises had always seemed shaky at best). It wasn't their fault Catalyst got caught up in another lawsuit with a completely different foe.
Yeah. Looking at the KS page (I never backed, thankfully), the backers are about ready to get the torches and pitchforks out, and with very good reason.
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While I tend to agree that the most likely case is HG not wanting to keep the Palladium license going, there could also be writing on the wall HG is gonna lose their trolling and cutting their losses a bit early.
There's one other link from the RRT Kickstarter I'd like to include. It's a rather frank breakdown of what the hell happened to RRT (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/2120399), including financials. Granted RRT is a collateral of everything going on, but its a interesting read.
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Honestly, reading the post suggests that Palladium simply couldn't afford to finish the project or find investors to help them do it.
(Though the lawsuit could also make investors gun-shy if they're canny enough to notice that Harmony Gold's rights to hand out those images is currently under question).
HG's behavior certainly isn't going to be inspiring any confidence in potential investors.
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Pardon me if this is tap dancing on not relevant, but CGL might have an affirmative defense regarding not competing in each others space now that the Palladium Robotech game has officially failed to meet it's kickstarter obligations.
I mean, at BEST it is one more match on the pile of gasoline soaked garbage that is this whole mess, but it is a thing.
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I'm still not entirely sure what are the legal details, but from a lot of the discussion in this thread and what we have understood from the legal proceedings I wonder if HG legally could not license to Palladium, full stop. The tactics game uses the 'mecha that it doesn't really have a license to make new art with at all -- something hammered home in the Tatsunoko arbitration from last year.
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While I tend to agree that the most likely case is HG not wanting to keep the Palladium license going, there could also be writing on the wall HG is gonna lose their trolling and cutting their losses a bit early.
There's one other link from the RRT Kickstarter I'd like to include. It's a rather frank breakdown of what the hell happened to RRT (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/2120399), including financials. Granted RRT is a collateral of everything going on, but its a interesting read.
As someone who runs a business, reading this cost breakdown is a horror show. I feel for Palladium and hope they find success elsewhere.
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As someone who runs a business, reading this cost breakdown is a horror show. I feel for Palladium and hope they find success elsewhere.
It's also mildly terrifying showing just how tight the funding is for Palladium and how close to the edge they are. Lack of willing investors and not even being able to afford shipping of the merchandise...that's a really bad situation to be in.
The tactics game uses the 'mecha that it doesn't really have a license to make new art with at all -- something hammered home in the Tatsunoko arbitration from last year.
Like I wondered elsewhere, did HG not offer the license for renewal to Palladium (and if not why), or did Palladium not have the dollarydoos to pony up for renewing the license (considering their lack of funding discussed at length in the kickstarter notes) for why the split happened?
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Where the hell did you find this?!
They posted in a Kickstarter update earlier today.
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While I tend to agree that the most likely case is HG not wanting to keep the Palladium license going, there could also be writing on the wall HG is gonna lose their trolling and cutting their losses a bit early.
There's one other link from the RRT Kickstarter I'd like to include. It's a rather frank breakdown of what the hell happened to RRT (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/2120399), including financials. Granted RRT is a collateral of everything going on, but its a interesting read.
Full disclosure: I am biased on the Kickstarter, as I was a backer, and have been loosely following the process for close to six years.
That said, that disclosure rather frankly says the the second round of product was too expensive to ever produce, and it makes it sound like it was clear that it was the case for some time. This comes on the heals of four years of continuous claims that they were absolutely coming, despite the delays. A trend which only ended with today's updates.
I am very glad to see the end of the whole debacle.
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As someone who runs a business, reading this cost breakdown is a horror show. I feel for Palladium and hope they find success elsewhere.
I have little to no sympathy for Palladium, or Kevin Siembieda.
The company has screwed its employees, freelancers more time then should be allowed.
Kevin complained about employees/freelancers stealing product, when it turned out he hadn't and was not planing to pay then for over a years work.
They have gone bankrupt, and gotten out of it by sell prints and cell for thousands of dollars to their diluted fans.
My one hope is that they go down in flames and this time their fan snap out of their hero worship long enough to let them.
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I have little to no sympathy for Palladium, or Kevin Siembieda.
The company has screwed its employees, freelancers on a more time then should be allowed.
Kevin complained about employees/freelancers stealing product, when it turned out he hadn't and was not planing to pay then for over a years work.
They have gone bankrupt, and gotten out of it by sell prints and cell for thousands of dollars to their diluted fans.
My one hope is that they go down in flames and this time their fan snap out of their hero worship long enough to let them.
+1 to this. It's happened twice before and he appealed to the fans to bail him out of his debt by buying regurgitated product (which actually worked, sad to say). It's odd how the guy is able to retain a loyal customer base after so many debacles of this kind. :-\
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Or, it could be just as advertised -- the license expired and HG declined to renew.
according to the PB writer i was collaborating with on a robotech RPG book, this was basically it.
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*sits & eats popcorn* I suppose this means the end of Palladium? It's not like the heap of former game companies is small. *shrug*
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*sits & eats popcorn* I suppose this means the end of Palladium? It's not like the heap of former game companies is small. *shrug*
I doubt it sad to say.
He always seems to hatch one scheme or another that saves Palladium for one more debacle.
He will probably sell his used socks to the fans for hundreds of dollars and keep going.
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To get back to topic...anyone know what the latest paperwork in the suit says?
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I have little to no sympathy for Palladium, or Kevin Siembieda.
The company has screwed its employees, freelancers more time then should be allowed.
Kevin complained about employees/freelancers stealing product, when it turned out he hadn't and was not planing to pay then for over a years work.
They have gone bankrupt, and gotten out of it by sell prints and cell for thousands of dollars to their diluted fans.
My one hope is that they go down in flames and this time their fan snap out of their hero worship long enough to let them.
+3 to this, too. Kevin isn't the WORST person that's ever been in the game industry, even today - Ken Whitman is an out-and-out THIEF - but he's living proof that the good die young.
On top of everything else, Palladium is a bad system. It's the worst of the 1980s undiluted by any hint of good game design.
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actually he never claimed the freelancers were stealing product. he discovered that the company's financial officer had been embezzling funds (and taking product to sell privately).. and had been doing so for 20 years.
said financial officer was probably why some writers didn't get paid. dude probably pocketed the paychecks while claiming he sent them out.
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We're on page 49 so I'm going to go ahead and lock the topic.