Author Topic: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold  (Read 231179 times)

abou

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #300 on: 28 July 2017, 18:32:29 »

No idea if this makes any sense.
Not really... #P

Anyway, it is interesting to see as more information comes out just how much trouble HG could be in. Could being the opportune word. I wonder if a judge or jury could find HG's behavior predatory -- eg. trademarking the name Macross in the US to block distribution, but intellectual property rights still belong with Big West. Not to mention, the various story ideas that HG came up with for RoboTech have little to do with the actual Macross storyline.

Furthermore, if derivations or homages to the Macross designs are a problem for HG, what about C-3PO and other protocol droids when compared to Fritz Lang's Metropolis?

Any word on IMR/CGL getting a lawyer?

Pat Payne

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #301 on: 28 July 2017, 18:51:21 »


Furthermore, if derivations or homages to the Macross designs are a problem for HG, what about C-3PO and other protocol droids when compared to Fritz Lang's Metropolis?


Heck -- does William Shakespeare have any descendants? They could make some lawyers very busy as half of Western Literature could be seen as a derivative work on one or another Shakespeare play...

abou

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #302 on: 28 July 2017, 18:52:38 »
Heck -- does William Shakespeare have any descendants? They could make some lawyers very busy as half of Western Civilization could be seen as a derivative work on one or another Shakespeare play...
Bah! Shakespeare? Ovid and Vergil would like to have a few words with him.

Pat Payne

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #303 on: 28 July 2017, 18:59:21 »
Bah! Shakespeare? Ovid and Vergil would like to have a few words with him.

Where'd'ya think the OTHER half came from? ;)

glitterboy2098

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #304 on: 28 July 2017, 19:02:07 »
or Ibid.. he wrote everything..   ;D

Pat Payne

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #305 on: 28 July 2017, 19:04:19 »
or Ibid.. he wrote everything..   ;D

Well played, good sir, well played :)

YingJanshi

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #306 on: 28 July 2017, 19:33:08 »
or Ibid.. he wrote everything..   ;D

And Anon...he seems almost as prolific...

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pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #307 on: 28 July 2017, 19:55:58 »
Dug this article up by exploring that rabbit hole, and it's and interesting read, even if it is just a summary of the filing.
https://terrania.us/2017/07/23/harmony-gold-has-filed-suit-over-another-battletech-game/

In a few places I find his rant rather stupid and biased against BT. First being focused on how Weisman and HBS fit into this. HBS doesn't have art, or 3D models to license to anymore so they no skin in the real game. The only reason HG would want to include them is over the FASA v HG case and the settlement that Weisman signed. But, the catch there is he doesn't actually have anything to do with licensing the art to anyone nor has he created any new art derived or not. To that end HG had better tip toe around HBS or they could end up getting a countersuit. Considering the others.. It isn't completely unreasonable, but the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, and Locust?? Even if the latter two were identical knock-offs to another animes artwork HG has no basis for a copyright claim and only CGL has a claim (or the artworks author) on the Atlas. It would be a twist of irony if CGL countersued HG over making false claims on THEIR copyrighted work.

Aaaaaand I went off on a rant and lost my train of thought... #P

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #308 on: 28 July 2017, 20:08:44 »
HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.
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abou

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #309 on: 28 July 2017, 20:15:55 »
HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.
Oh! Where?

Pat Payne

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #310 on: 28 July 2017, 20:23:18 »
Oh! Where?

How 'bout we NOT ask and therefore not do you-know-who's lawyers' work for them.

abou

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #311 on: 28 July 2017, 20:24:44 »
Yeah, I guess.

guardiandashi

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #312 on: 28 July 2017, 20:27:30 »
In a few places I find his rant rather stupid and biased against BT. First being focused on how Weisman and HBS fit into this. HBS doesn't have art, or 3D models to license to anymore so they no skin in the real game. The only reason HG would want to include them is over the FASA v HG case and the settlement that Weisman signed. But, the catch there is he doesn't actually have anything to do with licensing the art to anyone nor has he created any new art derived or not. To that end HG had better tip toe around HBS or they could end up getting a countersuit. Considering the others.. It isn't completely unreasonable, but the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, and Locust?? Even if the latter two were identical knock-offs to another animes artwork HG has no basis for a copyright claim and only CGL has a claim (or the artworks author) on the Atlas. It would be a twist of irony if CGL countersued HG over making false claims on THEIR copyrighted work.

Aaaaaand I went off on a rant and lost my train of thought... #P
you know while I am not especially happy about the MWO atlas if the lawyers properly cite the old atlas as a clearly FASA artwork, and then show the various concept art stages where all they really did was move the head down that really IMO kills the argument HG had that its a ripoff of the armored veritech and that they are VINDICTIVELY harassing anyone and anything having to do with battletech to "defend" an IP that my understanding of the japan courts rulings means they don't actually have. and if there IS any justice in the world they won't just loose the case, they will LOOSE AND have to pay all the defense legal costs because they are a copyright troll.

pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #313 on: 28 July 2017, 20:39:30 »
Well, adding HBS and Jordan Weisman to the suit is a double edged sword for HG as it can be seen as harassment for one as well as the possibility of a countersuit of them making claims on the Atlas which they do not own. If anything PGI would have licensed the likeness, or at the very least created a derivative of it with permission (or blessing if it can be copyrighted by PGI) from CGL. Trying to claim someone else copyright as your own... not smart. Depending on the relationship or ownership of the PGI Atlas HG is playing with fire. HBS, PGI, and CGL might not have a ton of money like Hasbro or HG but HG seems to have gone a bit overboard trying to drag Weisman into this.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #314 on: 28 July 2017, 20:42:17 »
One thing to remind folks of, it's likely intended to be something handled in negotiation - so HG makes solid claims, then makes much more spurious ones, with the tradeoff of 'we'll back off these and acknowledge they're not ours, if you admit that those few are."  Granted, PGI decided to go all the way with it, which probably wasn't in HG's intent - but such is the law.

Let's keep cool heads.
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JenniferinaMAD

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #315 on: 28 July 2017, 20:59:48 »
Well, now the fight is on anyway. No use at the moment to let anything go. If HG wins the unseen will be pretty much gone as you want it, but as how the indictment (hope that is the right term) has been phrased mechs in general are a thing of the past because nothing that looks like a robot will be okay in the mindset of HG´s lawyers. And I don´t think that any judge will  let this happen. But in the end we live in crazy times.

I don't want any of this. These lawsuits are a waste that could have been avoided by just not poking HG and embracing PP instead. HG ignored the Phoenixes, as far as i know, so the matter could have ended there.

This argument is backwards.
FASA created the Warhammer BattleMech, its name, backstory, configuration and game rules. The only thing not FASA for the Warhammer is its visual representation. Over two decades of "unseen" have proven that BattleTech is its own artistic entity, and that it doesn't hinge on the imagery in question. (Using the Warhammer here as a stand-in for all Unseen.)
What FASA, later FanPro and then IMR/CGL did was to try and fill the hole in BattleTech that Harmony Gold punched. They backfilled the hole with designs that, in my uninformed layman opinion, share no copyrightable similarities with the original IP.

...

Does anyone else here remember the days when FASA was slammed as FA$A among roleplayers for their perceived crackdown on third parties who made (too) free use of FASA's BattleTech, Shadowrun and other IPs?
If Harmony Gold is in the right, then by all means, they are. My gut feeling says they aren't. But again, that's for the court to decide. Torches, pitchforks, tar & feathers have no place here.

I'm not lumping anything, i'm talking about the unseen art! The name, stats and story have never been challenged, only the art (which is of mechs, so i'm calling them mechs).

Project phoenix showed that HG didn't care about the names or stats. If the mechs truly had been distinct from the art, PP would have been the end of it. Instead both piranha and cgl deliberately tried to edge back in closer to the original unseen.

Is HG right , are they wrong, i don't know. But i fear a judge or jury will give them the benefit of the doubt because what it looks like is battletech encroaching on designs it signed away in 1996. That's not even subtle. The intent was clearly to get as close to the unseen art as they could, which means no matter what else hg does with its time, they are not the aggressors here, they are defending their ip against a repeat offender (or so their lawyers will be able to claim with some justification). Where is the line between ok and infringement? I don't know, but everyone should have expected that to be a question settled in court, and cgl doesn't have the time or money for that.

I think the new classics looks sweet, but they i don't think they are/were a risk worth taking given the legal situation. New designs utterly dissimilar by these artists could have been just as sweet for less risk.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #316 on: 28 July 2017, 21:12:49 »
I don't want any of this. These lawsuits are a waste that could have been avoided by just not poking HG and embracing PP instead. HG ignored the Phoenixes, as far as i know, so the matter could have ended there.


The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.

Would it have been better to resolve this back when it began? Probably. Would it have been better to have original art to begin with? Maybe. Art's expensive, maybe too expensive back when the game began.

Does it matter? Nope. What's done is done and here we are.
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #317 on: 28 July 2017, 21:19:27 »
When a bully demands your toys, you sock him in the nose.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #318 on: 28 July 2017, 21:19:58 »
Well we all know Wasps sting and Stingers are kinda painful. :P

ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #319 on: 28 July 2017, 21:24:37 »
One thing to remind folks of, it's likely intended to be something handled in negotiation - so HG makes solid claims, then makes much more spurious ones, with the tradeoff of 'we'll back off these and acknowledge they're not ours, if you admit that those few are."  Granted, PGI decided to go all the way with it, which probably wasn't in HG's intent - but such is the law.

Let's keep cool heads.

We don't know that PGI has decided to go all the way to trial yet. We're reaching the stage when the lawyers for both sides meet and try to negotiate a settlement.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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JPArbiter

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #320 on: 28 July 2017, 21:53:21 »
Okay i got a dumb question that requires a personal anecdote.  When my wife and i were negotiating a Prenuptuial agreement, my attourney revealed to me that at least in family court, sometimes a contract or agreement can be thrown out because a judge either finds it spurious, or unfair etc. or can even be thrown out because a long enough time has passed.  Now this was family court not civil litigation, but I am wondering in light of the summary of Weissmans settlement from way back when, if a similar thing can happen. 

Specifically I am looking at the portion that says he is obligated to try and prevent future IP developers he is not directly involved with from trying tonuse, obtain or if i read it right, redesign these images.  With project phoenix being released in 2003 and no public attempt made to prevent it despite it loosely violating the letter of that settlement, could that whole settlement be thrown out as either un enforcable or a lack of previous enforcement.

Granted I am not a lawyer, so the hypothesis could be easily tosed out, hut it is worth a thought.
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ColBosch

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #321 on: 28 July 2017, 22:05:56 »
Seriously unlikely.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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SCC

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #322 on: 28 July 2017, 22:15:28 »

The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.

Would it have been better to resolve this back when it began? Probably. Would it have been better to have original art to begin with? Maybe. Art's expensive, maybe too expensive back when the game began.

Does it matter? Nope. What's done is done and here we are.
And how is the Project Phoenix art different from the Classic art in being derived from the original Unseen artwork?

JPArbiter

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #323 on: 28 July 2017, 22:17:55 »
Seriously unlikely.
.

I did not think so, but thought it was worth bringing up
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glitterboy2098

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #324 on: 28 July 2017, 22:18:47 »
Specifically I am looking at the portion that says he is obligated to try and prevent future IP developers he is not directly involved with from trying tonuse, obtain or if i read it right, redesign these images.  With project phoenix being released in 2003 and no public attempt made to prevent it despite it loosely violating the letter of that settlement, could that whole settlement be thrown out as either un enforcable or a lack of previous enforcement.

Granted I am not a lawyer, so the hypothesis could be easily tosed out, hut it is worth a thought.

how involved was Weisman in PP though? it was done by Fanpro, which IIRC he was not involved with.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #325 on: 28 July 2017, 22:21:24 »
And how is the Project Phoenix art different from the Classic art in being derived from the original Unseen artwork?

I am unclear why you are asking me.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Acolyte

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #326 on: 28 July 2017, 22:23:10 »
HBS does sell blueprints of the Warhammer on its site, which might well have been a whoopsie and certainly has them commercially profiting from the artwork in question.

They do no such thing.

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #327 on: 28 July 2017, 22:31:51 »
The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #328 on: 28 July 2017, 22:38:00 »
The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.
Ah.  I found them while looking through HBS's stuff on their site, it must have linked me over.  I thought I was still at HBS's website discussing their kickstarter and extra merchandise.

We don't know that PGI has decided to go all the way to trial yet. We're reaching the stage when the lawyers for both sides meet and try to negotiate a settlement.
True - though I thought I'd seen a request for jury trial in the paperwork; that's probably JUST the request but seems to show a willingness to go to the wall for PGI.  And may well be pro forma for legal proceedings anyway.
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YingJanshi

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Re: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold
« Reply #329 on: 28 July 2017, 22:40:00 »
The catalyst Nuseen warhammer blueprints are sold by backerkit.



Which brings up the question of "is Kickstarter money revenue or investment"?

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