How’s the 3D Printing Working Out?

[Rtifs]

I know that the WOB LAMs were being made with 3D printing.  The sample pics posted by IWM look really good.  But I haven’t heard any news lately.  So my question is how is the 3D printing working out as a means of sculpting?  I’m not asking about an update on the LAMs themselves, but on the experimental 3D process.  Is this proving to be a viable process for its future minis, or just a bad idea?

[TheDean]

This is obviously not the company talking here. But strictly speaking 3D printing is on the verge of completely reinventing miniature gaming as we know it. It is certainly not a "bad" idea. More like a "get on board now or get left behind" idea.

[Fallen_Raven]

This is obviously not the company talking here. But strictly speaking 3D printing is on the verge of completely reinventing miniature gaming as we know it. It is certainly not a "bad" idea. More like a "get on board now or get left behind" idea.

Except that it isn't in anyway superior. It just allows computer modelers to do the work instead of sculptors.

[Beazle]

Except that it isn't in anyway superior. It just allows computer modelers to do the work instead of sculptors.

Except that it removes the need to produce molds that have to be stored, then busted out of storage for another production run when stock gets low.

Then manufacturer also doesn't have to worry about getting stuck with "overstock" of a product they thought would sell, but for some reason doesn't.

They also don't have to worry about the recouping the cost of making the mold in the first place, so you can see less popular models that wouldn't have been produced otherwise being 3D printed.  (although, they will, of course, still have to recoup the costs of having it designed in the first place.)

You want something in their catalogue, they can just print it out. 

If the costs of printing comes down far enough, it's a very viable production model for things that won't be produced in truly massive quantities.  (like mech mini's.)

[Cyc]

Maybe in the future when the costs come down to justify small "print" runs and if CGL move to getting more people like Huda rather than traditional illustrators to help reduce the amount of prep work from book appearance to mini.

[Fallen_Raven]

Except that it removes the need to produce molds that have to be stored, then busted out of storage for another production run when stock gets low.

Not in the slightest. It can take 20 minutes to 3 hours to produce a model from a 3D printer, depending on size and complexity. You still need to make molds and cast them to produce enough volume to offset the price of paying a modeler in the first place.

You want something in their catalogue, they can just print it out. 

If the costs of printing comes down far enough, it's a very viable production model for things that won't be produced in truly massive quantities.  (like mech mini's.)

If you never intend to make more than a dozen instances of a single miniature, that can be viable. On the other hand, if you intend to supply every player of Battletech who wants a Warhammer you'll need to turn out hundreds. On this forum alone we have over one thousand players registered, which would take months to print. If a quarter of those players want more than one, that increases by weeks. Of course you also have to produce more than one miniature design in the catalogue , so you have to decide between carrying one mini at a time, or splitting your production between multiple designs.

If you have a separate printer for each design you run into the problem of idle time when there aren't any orders, but if you don't have enough machines then you start building up a backlog that has to be filled at a later time. That means that 3D printers won't solve the issue of keeping everything in stock, so you need a way to allow special orders to be filled while you work on current production. Why not add a fee to push your special orders ahead of the scheduled runs? Sounds a lot like an archive situation to me.

Of course all of this ignores the retail market, which relies on having physical units on hand. On demand printing is less than useless for keeping products on the shelves. So that means that Iron Wind Metals has to produce enough extra minis to fill orders for every comic and gaming distributor they deal within addition to online orders. Something tells me that Diamond isn't going to be thrilled with waiting 2 weeks every time they want to order a dozen units of Enforcer Because all the printers are busy making Black Knight IIIs.

All of this isn't to say that 3D printing is a bad thing, just that it isn't a replacement for traditional manufacturing. Prototyping, initial models, and even limited runs can be done, all of which can speed the process greatly.

[Beazle]

I never said that it would replace traditional manufacturing, but to say that it "isn't in anyway superior" is simply not true.

It has both advantages and disadvantages.  You seem to be very familiar with the disadvantages, but I doubt you fully recognize the advantages.

You use the Warhammer as an example.  This is a popular mini, that would probably never work for 3D printing.  The popularity of it would ensure that it is almost always in production (baring legal considerations) and selling.

Replace that with something less popular though and you have a different story.  I'm sure everybody who buys new mini's for BT has run into an issue where the particular rare mini he wants to buy is out of stock, and out of production.  It might be put back into production at some point in the future, but nobody will say when.  With traditional manufacturing, I have to sit on my hands and wait for the manufacturer to decide there is enough demand for them to warrant the effort involved in putting a mold back into production.

Either that or find a used one on Ebay. 

Now personally, I'm not very patient, and my hands make poor seats, so I go the second route more often than not.  Over the years this has led to me spending hundreds of dollars on mini's second hand that I would have gladly bought new if I could have got it that way.

Now enter 3D printing (well, maybe not now, but some point in the near future when associated costs have gone down to a more viable level), and instead of waiting for them to start another production run, I can just pay an extra couple bucks to have my order printed instead of molded and get a brand new mini in a box without having to worry about being screwed over by some random guy from an internet auction site.

3D printing adds another option, and options are almost always a good thing.

Instead of looking at 3D printing as a replacement for traditional manufacturing, look at it as a supplement to it, and I think you'll be a little more enthusiastic. 

[Fallen_Raven]

Sorry if I seem rude about this, I'm not meaning to be. I've just dealt with this conversation dozens of times over the last few months. The sales and marketing guys keep trying to convince me that a 3D printer will allow us to make everything for free in the supply closet, while the engineers keep explaining that ABS plastic is absolutely useless for our purposes. Meanwhile the production and accounting folks are asking how this could be profitable with such low volumes. The truth is buried somewhere in all of the mess, but 3D printing isn't the revolution people think of it.

A parallel would be how desktop printers removed the need to have a print shop make every report in your office, but in no way does it make a dent in book publishing. We might be able to print enough minis to satisfy what a single person or even gaming group needs easily enough, but to supply an entire market requires a larger scale operation than 3D printing can supply.

As for making minis that are currently out of stock, that would be what the archive is for. IWM is a small operation dealing with a huge and ever expanding catalogue. When you order something off the archive they pick up the mold from storage and make a mini for you, then ship it to you. I doubt that special ordering a printed mini would be any faster.

[Beazle]

Sorry if I seem rude about this, I'm not meaning to be. I've just dealt with this conversation dozens of times over the last few months. The sales and marketing guys keep trying to convince me that a 3D printer will allow us to make everything for free in the supply closet, while the engineers keep explaining that ABS plastic is absolutely useless for our purposes. Meanwhile the production and accounting folks are asking how this could be profitable with such low volumes. The truth is buried somewhere in all of the mess, but 3D printing isn't the revolution people think of it.

A parallel would be how desktop printers removed the need to have a print shop make every report in your office, but in no way does it make a dent in book publishing. We might be able to print enough minis to satisfy what a single person or even gaming group needs easily enough, but to supply an entire market requires a larger scale operation than 3D printing can supply.

As for making minis that are currently out of stock, that would be what the archive is for. IWM is a small operation dealing with a huge and ever expanding catalogue. When you order something off the archive they pick up the mold from storage and make a mini for you, then ship it to you. I doubt that special ordering a printed mini would be any faster.

I can understand that kind of frustration, and you definitely didn't come off as "rude" just skeptical.

We've probably taken this topic off track far enough though.  The OP was looking for an update on a particular project, not a debate on the technology in general.

[SteelWarrior]

I lawled at "useless for keeping products on the shelves".  Not a single place in my city stocks IWM.....to my great dispair.

[William J. Pennington]

Isn't one of the hopes of 3d Printing is moving the point of manufacture closer to the consumer--be it a 3d print shop, or the home, and away from the current norm of distant construction site, distribution chain, then eventually consumer?

[worktroll]

A parallel would be how desktop printers removed the need to have a print shop make every report in your office, but in no way does it make a dent in book publishing.

I think that's a great analogy. 3D printing is at the "early laser printer" stage at this point, and will continue to mature with time. I note in terms of the printing business, self-contained "print on demand" machines failed in the market. The role of ebooks in this metaphor is not clear at the moment ;)

One thing which has to be considered - what's in it for the people who make the designs in the first place? I'm lucky to have a couple of 3D printed minis produced by one of the BT artists, MechaMaster, on a home rig (will post pics eventually). The results are quite promising - smaller minis actually show less layering. However, how long did it take him to produce the 3D model? How does he recover that cost, the cost of his time/experience/expertise, in a world where digital files are freely and illegally exchanged? Given that, why should he bother?

Also, anyone who thinks 3D printing is ready now should check the prices out on places like Shapeways. Yes, this. will drop over time.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

My biggest beef with 3D printed models is the material. It's always fragile, and not effective for gaming.

Which, is why printed models are typically cast in resin or white metal. 

[Stormlion1]

Given time 3D printing will be a Viable source of mass produced miniatures, but right now? No, good for singletons and replacement parts for broken unseen Marauder arms as far as I am concerned and the occasional Wing Commander fighter I feel the urge to paint up.

[Sentinel373]

Having quite a bit of experience with 3D printing and miniatures i can tell you that 3D printing is slow, expensive, but it often provides a much better result then a hand crafted master figure in my opinion. Now don't get me wrong I am biased towards 3D printing because I couldn't sculpt a mini with enough detail to satisfy my quality standards to save my life. but I am a proficient 3d modeler and the flexibility of working with a modeling program lets me create nice intricate detail that would be hard or or impossible at CBT scale to do by hand. I admit i could be wrong it might just depend on the artist

Now I don't think 3D printing will change this industry any time soon. at least not in such a way that you can just place an order and the mini will be printed for you. the reason being that 3d printed figures just arent as sturdy as resin or metal models. drop one of my 3d printed mini's from about 80 cm onto a carpeted floor and it will break.

What I do think is going to happen is that exactly what they did with the Word of Blake LAM. replace the sculpted masters with 3D printed masters.

The advantage being if the master figure breaks (I've often heard that the master sculpt breaks apart when creating the mold) and later on the mold break as well. They can print a new master figure that is identical to the original master without having to pay the artist to resculpt it. Instead of ending in a situation where you have to make a mold from a copy of a copy of a copy.

anyway these are just my thoughts

[Sigma]

The original master greens often are destroyed in producing the metal master. But the single metal master you get from it is the basis for however many production molds you need down the road.

This whole argument could be shut down hard if we could just suspend Rule 12 for about 5 minutes to show some fan stuff.

The usual summary:

1. Print on demand is expensive and stupid for the foreseeable future. Traditional production is almost a full magnitude cheaper and produces a superior product.

2. The tight control of detail and size of 3D prints makes for superior master sculpts as you can go back and tweak the files however you like that you can't in meatspace. This can mean different scale lines or detail tweaks or new joints or weapon loadouts, whatever, with very little hassle.

[DarkSpade]

It sounds like it would be better for IMW to stick with their current methods for now, but 3d printing could give them another option for archived minis.  Maybe instead of $8 for an archived mini you'd could op for a 3D printed version for $3 if you only wanted one?

[Sigma]

It sounds like it would be better for IMW to stick with their current methods for now, but 3d printing could give them another option for archived minis.  Maybe instead of $8 for an archived mini you'd could op for a 3D printed version for $3 if you only wanted one?

Point 1 again. Currently that archived print in production LAM quality would be on the order of $100-200 and be in acrylic and not metal. You are suggesting that it will drop 1 and 2/3+ magnitude in price. The quality might get there but UV acrylic is still $80 a liter raw and like toner will probably continue that way. That's an average of $8 a mini in raw materials even if you magic away any profit or other concerns.

You are trying to make what amounts to a whole new master instead of just paying to move a mold from storage and warm it up to spin some new minis.

There's no place where I see it would be cheaper. May get close, but not cheaper. A fairer comparison would be "instead of $8 for an archived mini, you pay a $20 fee for a 3D printed plastic (printing of parts, preparing the bed, solvents to remove excess wax and resin, takes as much or more time and effort than physically moving a mass pro mold and literally heating it up and spinning it 2 or 3 times for multiple minis).

[worktroll]

I submit as evidence the Reseen Bane, and Reseen Grand Crusader. Both were designed in 3D. There can be unappealing 3D-designed minis too. It just replaces one special skill with another.

I'm totally for 3D mastering, but at this time that's as far as we can practically go.

[Shimmering Sword]

3D printing for the sake of generating a master sculpt isn't just the near future, it's the now. It takes an extremely skilled (meaning rare and expensive) traditional sculptor to pull off what a typical professional 3D modeler can do. You pay for that costly modeling, printing and mold making once, from then on your have a high quality and more importantly non-derpy miniature to sell. You don't need CGL artists to do the 3D themselves either (though Huda and I do use 3D), you just need a competent modeler under proper supervision from the original artist. I'd also argue that any good mech design requires some 2D work prior to modeling for the benefits it has to design, so there's no way to dodge that step effectively.
The sooner IWM switches over to 3D printing as it's main source of masters the better in my opinion.

[StCptMara]

3D printing for the sake of generating a master sculpt isn't just the near future, it's the now. It takes an extremely skilled (meaning rare and expensive) traditional sculptor to pull off what a typical professional 3D modeler can do. You pay for that costly modeling, printing and mold making once, from then on your have a high quality and more importantly non-derpy miniature to sell.

You know, another issue is that the skills of those sculptors are becoming harder to find. An example is
that Bombshell Miniatures and Reaper use many of the same sculptors, so much so that sculpting work
for reaper was delaying the Bombshell Miniatures kickstarter fulfillment. I am sure if you start looking,
with the exception of P3 and GW, there are likely alot of sculptors shared between companies, especially
among companies that do traditional Greens as opposed to 3d Printed Masters. (This is only a suspicion,
I have not done the digging myself, and so I could be wrong.)

Simply put: Traditional Miniature Sculpting is like Traditional Stop Motion Photography: Something kept
alive by a slowly dwindling pool of artists. The skills are being lost every time a sculptor dies, or suffers
a serious injury or medical condition.

[TheDean]

My pockets certainly are not deep, I am the poster child of the educated unemployed, I proudly hold two degrees and no job for over a year now. If the price were hypothetically increased three fold I would simply buy three times less models.... I will always back quality over quantity, and as far as my eyes are concerned quality is in 3Ds corner.

[Stormlion1]

I look at it this way, if it runs me 14.95 for an assault mini right now, would I pay 45 for it if it was made with a 3d printer? I wouldn't and so wouldn't most people. And of course soon afterwords said company charging that fourty five bucks a mini will be out of business for lack of sales.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

An interesting topic. My personal opinion is that 3D Masters are promising for mechanical things. For organic things (people) not so much. I often find those miniatures 'lifeless'. There are exceptions of course (Statuesque Miniatures for example), but stuff like the Raging Heroes miniatures doesn't do much for me. It is probably too perfect, almost sterile.

For mechanical things like Mechs or tanks this works better, but most definitely isn't the only way to go. And it doesn't automatically make for a good mini as many examples illustrate. Bad artwork or not enough artworks puts the 3D modeler in the same boat as the traditional sculptor. The artist has to interpret and maybe even alter some details and or proportions to translate 2D into 3D.

The CAV line of Mechs is often held in high regard and presented as an example of how great 3D printed masters are. Honestly, I'd choose the Battletech line any day. CAV only has about 90 miniatures. You could easily select 90 better looking (sculpted) BT miniatures.

I think the current sculptors IWM works with have a great range of skills. You have Psycho whose precision and attention to detail easily matches any 3D print, Behrle who can give minis a unique personality (just look at the Primitive Banshee), Dave and his knack for dramatic poses, ... now add one or two talented 3D modelers to the mix and I feel you have a very attractive pool of talent to draw upon.

So, in a way 3D printed masters are the future - or even the now - but not exclusively.

[Sentinel373]

I would definitely agree that a lot of the quality of a model both made with CG or sculpted by hand are really dependent on the artist. just because you use a 3d printer does not necessarily mean you'll get a superior model. There are plenty of bad cg artists out there. Also just because you can make a very nice model in 3d does not mean you can make one that's viable as a miniature model.

3d printers have a resolution limit for example. if you were to model really small intricate details and you print that figure out with the highest detail printers currently available at classic battle tech scale. All that detail you put so much time and effort into will turn into an undefined blob of plastic that the printer couldn't produce.
Or there might be parts that work great in 3d but are next to impossible to properly cast. There are so many factors that come into play when making a good looking 3d printed miniature that can also cast. that it absolutely will depend on the artist and not the technique as to what produces a superior model.

but i do think that if you would put a professional 3d artist that has knowledge of the casting process as well as the resolution limit of the printer he employs against a professional sculptor with the same knowledge that the 3d printed model will be the superior model.

but that's just my opinion.

[Acolyte]

Not to mention that with only a little training a good hand sculptor can become a good 3D sculptor. It's a different medium, but a lot of the skill translates. This is quite likely to happen with the growing demand for 3D artists.

   - Shane

[Wolverine]

I've worked with 3D printers since the 80's for mechanical mockups (remember SLA's), and they've improved alot, unfortunately now the biz folks are promising it as the "Next Big Thing" which means it will be oversold and probably result in poor quality parts in many cases and unhappy customers for a while, after that phase blows over, we'll get down to material characterization proof testing, mixed materials, and some very capable items, most likely still pricey for decent quality.  All that said, 3D modeling for cosmetic toys is not as tough as it used to be, there is probably low cost hobby 3D model S/W somewhere (or will be soon), and the resins and 3D printers are becoming cheaper and more common.  I know the only Alumnium 3D printer process got snapped up by GE and locked up, but others are working it out, other metals are coming up (we use some Ti parts now), ceramics are out there too.

I'm looking forward to a customizable mini with fully articulated limbs, replaceable weapon & jump packs molded right onto a custom base, just let me get right into the painting, for about the same price the wildly expensive metal mini's are today (with the exception of Reaper, they had quality metal mini figs for 8$ on avg last I checked), the old model of costly molds, distributors, transportation just has way too much markup built into it for a diminishing customer base.

J

[Rommel_Twee]

I submit as evidence the Reseen Bane, and Reseen Grand Crusader. Both were designed in 3D. There can be unappealing 3D-designed minis too. It just replaces one special skill with another.

I'm totally for 3D mastering, but at this time that's as far as we can practically go.

Alot also has to do with the molding methods also. Grand Crud 2 IS the perfect example. When the mold master is squished in a mold the traditional way, detail is lost. And there are ways around that.


bigger version - http://media.mybattletech.com/albums/userpics/10010/Slide5.JPG

[worktroll]

Oh, RT - what did they do to your baby?  :'(

[Rommel_Twee]

Oh, RT - what did they do to your baby?  :'(

This one was done back when I first started doing the 3D prototype schtuff. What I didnt know was you have to do this and you have to do that to make the proto master work. So with me not knowing or the fine folks at IWM not knowing, well...you get the turd on the right. The printed master came out great.

[General308]

3D printing for the sake of generating a master sculpt isn't just the near future, it's the now. It takes an extremely skilled (meaning rare and expensive) traditional sculptor to pull off what a typical professional 3D modeler can do. You pay for that costly modeling, printing and mold making once, from then on your have a high quality and more importantly non-derpy miniature to sell. You don't need CGL artists to do the 3D themselves either (though Huda and I do use 3D), you just need a competent modeler under proper supervision from the original artist. I'd also argue that any good mech design requires some 2D work prior to modeling for the benefits it has to design, so there's no way to dodge that step effectively.
The sooner IWM switches over to 3D printing as it's main source of masters the better in my opinion.

3D printing for generating master sculpts has been used in CAV minis for over a decade now.  Frankly the CAV minis look awsome

[grabula]

Some big misconceptions about 3d modeling going around.

First,  sculpting the mini in 3d its as challenging as doing it by hand. .. and artistic but out can also be faster.   No drying or setting, mistakes are easier to correct as well.   This is of curse assuming relative skill levels are the same.

It's much easier to do smaller crisper detail in 3d software, model look more neat, cleaner lines.

Casting and molding will practically be the same regardless of the source of the initial model.

Iff you have reservations on how good 3D modeling can be,  then you absolutely have to check out wyrd miniatures line.  I own a10 thunder army that blows most model lines out of the water for clean lines.  Organic model are awesome in the hands of the right artist.

It's my honest opinion that its a mistake for ironwind if they arent seriously looking into this.

3D sculpting is hands down better and faster.  The cost per model is similar as well.  You dont need to own a 3D printer as this cabin be contacted out.

Seriously, if you haven't really liked at the current lines being digitally sculpted out there now then you really have no idea how good it is for ANY kind of model.   I know for a fact BT mechs would get 1000 time better as models.

[grabula]

To follow up,  the best thing to follow digital designs is to go with a good,  hard plastic. its admittedly more expensive to too up for plastic models so I can understand any trepidation there but out has definitely become much make attainable.   Several small unheard of until recently game companies are using or moving to plastic minis which indicates to more its much more a reality than even 10 years ago.

Out would be unfortunate if these things are not being researched and enacted sure to a manufacturers unwillingness to seriously consider updating the design and production process.  I'm not so much criticizing IW, I dont know what they're up to,  I am challenging the community to consider assuming for a better older all project.

Personally,  of BT were set up like the current Fantasy Flight produced XWing game I would be thrilled.   Plastic mechs in a blister with stat cards provided and effectively ready to play out of the package.

[GRUD]

Plastic mechs in a blister with stat cards provided and effectively ready to play out of the package.

That's been tried before by Wizkids, and it didn't turn out too well.   ;D

*Click, click, click!*


I DO like the looks of the SW minis though, but I'd like to have some of them just because they're SW, NOT for the game itself.  O0  I'm NOT paying $30.00 for the Millenium Falcon mini and all the game stuff that I'd never use, just to own the Falcon.  :P

[cavingjan]

Your biggest issue is the cost for plastic molds. It would work if we had a limited number of minis to produce a year and they were all omnis. If you only put out two dozen minis a year, it would be affordable particularly if you recycled components like WK did all the time. They either reused whole minis or parts of the minis to reduce costs. But when our last couple of TROs published three dozen mechs with a similar number of vehicles plus aerospace too, it isn't realistic unless you know what are going to be the big sellers up front and never produce the others.

I love the looks of the XWing game (just don't have the time for another game right now) and it will do well with plastics because they have released 12? sculpts. (very symetrical molds at that which really reduces the costs.

[grabula]

I mentioned this in my original thread but the random collecting aspect of mwda and the scale meant most bt players I know playing interest quick but digitally designed minis with a respectable paint job would do well. ran my point ool my other thread about how it could work and stay reasonably piced

[grabula]

Cost isn't unreasonable, you would obviously have to paceyourself on production but it's not as big an issue as you think.  Again just ake a look at companies who are doing it today,  even at startup.

[cavingjan]

You brought up Wyrd as a small company but when you look at their minis, they are mostly metal minis and not the plastic you are advocating. Only the box sets are plastic.

For sculpting, we are seeing some use of CAD done by IWM to mixed results. Some of the issues are definitely on the 3D printing side requiring a fair amount of work to remove the layer lines as found on some of the clan omni resculpts. It is a matter of finding the talent pool to do it. Cost appears to be about the same.

[mike19k]

I see lots of people on the web saying that you have to go plastic, as it is the way of the future as it is so much better than everything else. I can not talk about the 3D printing but as the Plastic vs. Metal if I have the option I will take metal over the plastic myself.

[cavingjan]

plastic is for high volume production only. Something that we lack on a lot of minis here. Not to mention IWM either needing to move to another facility or getting ride of metal spinning equipment to purchase and install new plastic molding machines. Don't get me wrong, it can be done but all of the current molds are useless for plastic and I'm not sure how many SKUs actually get the volume that making the switch would be cost effective.

Also don't discount the volume of work that IWM does for another game companies.

[grabula]

Wyrd is a good example because they are fairly new and moving to plastic from metal and showing plastic digitally designed kits are superior... as a newer company.
Higher volume comes from the serious interest in generating that volume through sales.   Check out my format in the other thread on how that can be done,.  Unfortunately I think we are  stuck at the moment with a company that isn't motivated to take those chances.  Otherwise we would see more serious pogress on the miniatures side.

Mike19k-some people do prefer metal but the evidence is out there that plastic minis are favored by majority for both production and purchase.   Plastic kits not only allow you to follow the business play I talk about in the other thread they allow for the easier creation of modification by both manufacturer and customer.   I get you could provide a mech with several options in a passable paint job for around 15$ us.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

grabula, interesting points, but I think you are wrong, especially with your generalization that everything will be better by moving to CAD and plastic.

Collectible pre-painted CAD designed plastics #P Dang, I am a painter. The few times I tried to paint one of those still give me nightmares ...

Besides some minis just look better sculpted by hand with some life and a 'soul'.

[cavingjan]

It is one thing to expand into plastic when you are expanding your business. It is another thing toreplace perfectly servicable machinery with something that also requires a lot of capital invested in new molds. You have to remember that you need to cover the cost for your molds. If you spend $50K on a new set of molds and your minis are selling for $15, you need to sell over 3000 minis just to cover the cost of the molds and does not include operating expenses, salaries, materials, and distribution. $50K for plastic molds are extremely cheap with them costing closer to 1.5 to 2 times that.

The fact that the cutoff for minis to go into the archives is in the single digits should give us an inication of the scale of distribution volume.

[grabula]

Gunji, I'm having this conversation over two threads but I've already discussed the pre-painted "issue" that I consider a non issue.  I'm a hobbyist as well as a game player.  Pre-painted miniatures are for the painter, just pre-primed and should be no issue for a hobbyist.  It grabs two sides of the coin, those players who don't want or can't paint, and those who can and will alter them as they see fit.  there's no disadvantage to properly done pre-painted minis.  Mechs are simple miniatures.  Generally speaking, a single color with a highlight and they look fine.  take a look at the Xwing models for that game to see how pre-paints for simple paint jobs can look fine.  I have my doubts about your claim on painting pre-painted cad designed miniatures.  please provide specific examples.

You say I'm wrong in my generalization but you don't get into specifics and don't describe what it is I'm wrong about.  That's poor basis for discussion and I'm unable to respond properly to it because of that.  I've stated pretty thoroughly on both threads the advantages and the proof lies just a google away...

The claim that hand sculpted minis have more "life" is purely subjective and I believe, inaccurate.  Hand sculpting leads to inaccuracies in scale, inconsistencies in quality (I'd use Privateer Press as an example of this).  For machines like mechs, digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate.  I have 10 minis from Wyrd sitting on my table that prove otherwise.

Cavingjan, we don't necessarily disagree on your points.  I'm only indicating that an unwillingness to move to better way of design and production is holding the product line back.  Please read my explanation in this thread: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,32952.0.html

I'm not expressing an opinion on how the game can improve in quality and expand it's customer base, I'm providing an example that's been repeated multiple times in the last few years to do exactly those things by others.

Ironwinds approach to the BT line has always felt dated to me and it's unfortunate.  I strongly believe that some company could breath a lot of new life into the game by making the right moves, however no one seems too interested in putting that sort of effort into it.  Believe me, if I had the capital available, I would certainly make the attempt.

[worktroll]

Can you consider that your advice is easier for a startup to implement, than an existing company?

IWM has, through its RP antecedents, invested over 30 years in building expertise with spin-cast metal minis. They have a small but talented team of casters & mould-makers, and a stable of known and reliable sculptors. They're a small company with hopefully decent, but likely unimpressive, profit margins. They do a lot of metal casting (BT is a small fraction of their business). The costs for them to shift over to 3D mastering include
- finding a new stable of CAD sculptors capable of reliably producing high-quality work for comparative fees
- Identifying a reliable and economic source of printed masters, with non-prohibitive cleanup costs
- Working up new masters for their existing high-turnover lines (it's not economic to convert the archived models, is it?)
- Working staff into handling the new steps in the design/mastering processes
- handling the sales & promotion of the new minis without destroying sales in the meantime

And that's without changing from spin-cast metal to anything else. It's a significant economic cost. The startups you refer to, by the way,
- have a good CAD sculptor (usually) already, they wouldn't be starting up otherwise
- have the same issues with mastering
- don't have existing lines & investments to protect
- don't have to retrain staff, can just hire them with the right skills if they choose
- don't have an existing cashflow to worry about.

It's like the old joke - how could Ghu create the world in only seven days? Answer: he didn't have to worry about an installed user base.

In time, I would expect IWM to adapt, or face issues. But I can't see how they can manage to have the same maneuverability as a startup. We chose to go plastic-injection for Leviathans, and had CAD masters designed from Doug Chaffee's art. Oh, and we were very lucky to get some time from a quality CAD artist to make that happen; they aren't common, don't come cheap, and we had to get a share of his time. In our (very different from IWM) position, it made sense to do so. OTOH, we're unlikely to consider moving to direct printing leviathans for quite some time; it's just not economical at the moment.

If you'll bear another metaphor, in the late 1940s people were declaring that air travel would defeat ocean travel. And it did ... in the late 60s. If you already owned a fleet of liners, there were obstacles to turning into an airline overnight.  So most existing companies didn't do it overnight. New companies invested in planes.

The change you see will come. But there's no need to put down those who aren't in a position to make a headlong leap into the future today. All you need to do is wait. Alternatively, if I ever do win the lottery, I've already thought about dropping the IWM management a line and making them an offer they can't refuse ;)

W.

[StCptMara]

It is one thing to expand into plastic when you are expanding your business. It is another thing toreplace perfectly servicable machinery with something that also requires a lot of capital invested in new molds. You have to remember that you need to cover the cost for your molds. If you spend $50K on a new set of molds and your minis are selling for $15, you need to sell over 3000 minis just to cover the cost of the molds and does not include operating expenses, salaries, materials, and distribution. $50K for plastic molds are extremely cheap with them costing closer to 1.5 to 2 times that.

I know that when Mantic switched from metal to their current Resin-Plastic line, one of the things that they supposedly did
is NOT switch molds. They apparently have a brand and blend of resin-plastic that can be spin cast, just like the Reaper
Bones(though, apparently, Reaper's Bones line DOES need new molds made, but..they are still spin-cast). I have wondered
if IWM can experiment with that sort of switch, and what the downsides to switching to a new substance that can use
the same molds as they use for the metal?

[worktroll]

As I understand it, molten metal flows pretty easily, once the moulds are heated up. Spinning drives the metal into all the nooks and crannies of the mould, and any air bubbles "rise" to the centre of the mould disk. Resin is much thicker - this means it's harder to drive it into all the nooks and crannies, and harder to get any air bubbles out.

Early GW Finecast minis - made with a resin/plastic/thingie in the original metal moulds - had a lot of problems early on with these things. And if you've ever bought a garage kit of some sci-fi spaceship or airplane model, you'll know the amount of sanding & filling required.

All problems are solvable, given handfuls of money to throw at them. GW appear to have gotten their Finecast issues under control. Reaper is experimenting with its Bones material, which appears to produce results equivalent to the 1990s BT blue resin minis. Maybe IWM is experimenting and hasn't shown the results yet. Time will tell.

[Sigma]

A reminder that Ral Partha did experiment successfully with that in the past. Remember the Blue mechs? And remember the Gray in the old Fantasy lines? And that was with resin tech of 18+ years ago. There's way better engineered low viscosity resin materials now. Finecast had no excuse other than terrible QC on their part.

But really this is all beside the point. It's a totally separate issue from 3D masters as WT mentioned.

[grabula]

I'm not really debating the challenges of changing technologies whether you're a startup or not.  I don't believe that starting up versus retooling is as difficult as it can be made to sound.  In both cases the company has to find the right sculptors to do the kind of work they need done.  To go to plastics they need to both acquire the right machines to do this.  The argument can also be made to show that it's possibly harder for a startup since they have to present a business plan just to get the money to startup, whereas a company that has been going strong for a while has a leg up on any loans they may need to take out in order to retool and shift.

I think switching to resin is a mistake.  It's an expensive material that can't be re-used like metal and some plastics and has some serious challenges for quality.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take it for what it is in any form but, the last few years has shown us that there are a lot of options out there that have come into reach and I can only hope that IW and Catalyst really try to apply new technologies and ways of marketing games.  I really wholeheartedly believe BT could do well under a similar situation as XWing from Fantasy Flight.

Worktroll, you said "In time, I would expect IWM to adapt, or face issues."  I believe this is already the case.  While BT maintains a steady fan following, I don't see it gaining any ground, and I really think it's probably starting to see some slow losses.  It's a clunky system and the mech designs don't grab the imagination of todays gamers.  I was looking through TRO 3060 and its still shocking that mech and vehicle design mostly still looks like something straight out of a TRO from the 80's.  It's got better recently which is good to see but along with Alpha Strike, BT needs a to basically be rebranded to make it more relevant for todays gamer or its just going to continue to slowly die.

[Fullback]

As far as i know FFG doesn´t produce X-wing miniatures.
All those are produced and painted in china.

Like Palladium and Ninja Division let their new miniature line also be produced in china.


Biseds GW i don´t now any miniature game company that produce plastics on their own.
Or have the money or experience to do so.

An for BT-I think it is very unlikly to ever happen with their hundreds of different miniature.

[grabula]

Correct, most of those minis are produced in asia.  It means the owning company doesn't have to pony up for the machinery to make them, only work out a contract to have them produced.

As for the number of units, well, MWDA managed to do it, with much larger minis.  While the quality sucked and I think the plastic is wrong, it's an example of what can be done given enough time.  I'm not saying they should reproduce their entire line in plastic immediately.  You start with the starter kits like I laid out and move from there.  Over the next ten years you replace ok metal, hand sculpted mechs with fantastic digitally sculpted plastics.

You could even start out producing some digital sculpts in metal to save on costs initially but the plastic prepaints, regardless of what some might think, would bring in some money.

[mike19k]

Correct, most of those minis are produced in asia.  It means the owning company doesn't have to pony up for the machinery to make them, only work out a contract to have them produced.

As for the number of units, well, MWDA managed to do it, with much larger minis.  While the quality sucked and I think the plastic is wrong, it's an example of what can be done given enough time.  I'm not saying they should reproduce their entire line in plastic immediately.  You start with the starter kits like I laid out and move from there.  Over the next ten years you replace OK metal, hand sculpted mechs with fantastic digitally sculpted plastics.

You could even start out producing some digital sculpts in metal to save on costs initially but the plastic prepaints, regardless of what some might think, would bring in some money.

So if I am understanding you, you are saying that IWM should contract out the making of the minis to China? So a company that there business is to make minis should have them made in China? I think one of the issues may be that IWM is not as I understand it part of BT proper. They do make the minis for it, but do not work for them. Also BT is not really a mini game as you can us anything you want to play, you just need the rules. Now Alpha Strike may change some of this, as I have not read the rules, and only play a couple of times. You also said "While BT maintains a steady fan following, I don't see it gaining any ground, and I really think it's probably starting to see some slow losses." Where do you get that from? The group that I play with has grown to over time to now it is almost to big to play and most of them are younger players who did not grow up on the game. I am not saying it is not true as I can not back up what I see and think with any thing but it is what I see and think, having said that I see the game slowly growing, and most of the people that I talk to like the metal better than plastic. I have found that the plastic breaks more than the metal, the weight is also an issue as they are to light, but like I said that may just be me and the people that I talk with.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

grabula, did you know that IWM is one of biggest US companies doing metal casts for others? IWM has cast metal miniatures for the likes of Privateer Press and Wyrd among others. That's their business, that's what they do.

If you are talking about Wyrd moving to plastics (outsourcing not to a metal caster, but to a plastic caster) the analogy would be CGL not licensing miniatures to IWM, but keeping the license, outsourcing their own production of miniatures, not to IWM, but to a plastic company. Effectively turning CGL into a "miniatures company".

Asking IWM to retool and produce plastic instead of metal would be like asking your fruit shop to start selling meat instead of fruit.

Maybe IWM has to look into other production methods, maybe not. I don't think plastic is the future, at least not the only one and most definitely not for high quality "painter" miniatures. Just as I don't think CAD is the exclusive and automatically perfect future.

Gunji, I'm having this conversation over two threads but I've already discussed the pre-painted "issue" that I consider a non issue.  I'm a hobbyist as well as a game player.  Pre-painted miniatures are for the painter, just pre-primed and should be no issue for a hobbyist.  It grabs two sides of the coin, those players who don't want or can't paint, and those who can and will alter them as they see fit.  there's no disadvantage to properly done pre-painted minis.  Mechs are simple miniatures.  Generally speaking, a single color with a highlight and they look fine.  take a look at the Xwing models for that game to see how pre-paints for simple paint jobs can look fine.  I have my doubts about your claim on painting pre-painted cad designed miniatures.  please provide specific examples.

Ok, bear in mind that I am 'only' a painter and I am not here because of the tabletop game. Miniatures I paint usually end up in my display cabinet. Some ended up as competition entries and even winning a medal or two.
I have yet to see a line of pre-painted miniatures that would be fun to paint and worth the hassle. The quality of the plastic is bad with warped and malformed parts, the "paint" is thick and blobs details. The "acts as primer" argument doesn't count. Not only is the paint often too thick, I also want to chose the color of the primer myself since it influences the end result. And I don't want to strip the miniature before I can start prep work. I have tried Click-Minis (of various lines), Dust (who claim to be high quality for the painter as well as for the gamer) and the old Rackham lines. In each case I opened the blister, saw the miniature, put it back and buried it in the deepest pits of my storage locker... Honestly, I enjoy painting miniatures way too much, spend way too much time on each miniature and don't have anywhere near enough time to paint to bother with this "quality".

Take away the pre-painted aspect and the quality of the plastic miniature gets better, but in my opinion even very high quality plastics most of the time lack the sharpness of detail metal miniatures have. Resin is something I could get behind, but not plastic. And yes, I have seen (and own) a fair amount of plastic minis.

The plastic miniatures you mention are often "troop" miniatures. In my opinion Mechs are "hero" miniatures. Miniatures which are usually done in a high(er than plastic) quality material like metal or resin (resin can hold much sharper details than plastic).

You say I'm wrong in my generalization but you don't get into specifics and don't describe what it is I'm wrong about.  That's poor basis for discussion and I'm unable to respond properly to it because of that.  I've stated pretty thoroughly on both threads the advantages and the proof lies just a google away...

The claim that hand sculpted minis have more "life" is purely subjective and I believe, inaccurate.  Hand sculpting leads to inaccuracies in scale, inconsistencies in quality (I'd use Privateer Press as an example of this).  For machines like mechs, digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate.  I have 10 minis from Wyrd sitting on my table that prove otherwise.

Sorry, but difficult to write a "wall of text" on a mobile ;)
Your claim CAD is superior is equally subjective.
I look at the digital Wyrd miniatures, I look at Raging Heroes, I look at Kingdom Death, I look at Reaper's CAV line, ... and while there are some nice, very nice even, miniatures, most of them don't appeal to me. I find them sterile, too "perfect" and lifeless.
Speaking of Reaper's CAV line, I never understood why people regard them so highly and point to this particular line to show the superiority of CAD designed metal cast miniatures. The line has a mere 90 miniatures. It wouldn't be difficult to find 90 BattleTech sculpts that are better. The CAV Mechs are more consistent in scale, I give them that, but otherwise they are just stiff, chunky and lifeless metal hulks with an ok level of detail at best. Give me hand sculpted BattleTech minis with their flaws any day.

Sure, BattleTech minis could be better. Some could scale better, some could have a few less mistakes, some could have more details, some simply could be better all around. But recent batches of miniatures were a huge step forward in my opinion and show what can be done.

I am not against CAD per se. As I stated earlier in the thread:

I think the current sculptors IWM works with have a great range of skills. You have Psycho whose precision and attention to detail easily matches any 3D print, Behrle who can give minis a unique personality (just look at the Primitive Banshee), Dave and his knack for dramatic poses, ... now add one or two talented 3D modelers to the mix and I feel you have a very attractive pool of talent to draw upon.

Neither is IWM against CAD to produce master sculpts, they are experimenting with it and have done so in the past. I do think it was the right choice for the WoB stuff. Here clean, sterile and ... digital ... is perfect.

But also keep in mind the artwork:

For mechanical things like Mechs or tanks this works better, but most definitely isn't the only way to go. And it doesn't automatically make for a good mini as many examples illustrate. Bad artwork or not enough artwork puts the 3D modeler in the same boat as the traditional sculptor. The artist has to interpret and maybe even alter some details and or proportions to translate 2D into 3D.

And ... some miniatures just look better sculpted by hand, no way around this ;)

I recently talked about the CAD topic to a friend and we noted that CAD is becoming more and more common, not just in miniatures. But does it automatically without a doubt and 100% make everything better? No, it doesn't.
Just take a look at cartoons. So much CAD these days. the same animations from character to character, just a different skin. #P And here is proof it doesn't work: my son's favorite cartoon is Fireman Sam. He knows the new CGI episode from TV, but thanks to the power of YouTube we found older non-CGI epsiodes. Now, almost every time a CGI episode is shown on TV he asks if he can instead watch an old episode on the PC.

So, you think CAD designed plastics are superior, I think CAD designed masters for metal or resin casting have potential, supplementing well done hand sculpted miniatures. You like what pre-painted offers to the gamer, I dislike what it mean for the painter. You are a gamer, I am a painter (generally speaking). Guess we are just different target audiences with different (subjective?) opinions ... ;)

[grabula]

mike19k, I'm not saying they should do anything but consider every option.  As for preferences, it's subjective.  I prefer plastic because I find they don't break more - in my experience multipart metal minis break more often then fully bonded plastic minis, but again, that's my experience.  I also like modeling plastic since it's easier to work with.  I could do easier conversion work on plastic then metal.


I'm not completely tied to plastic, I just think it's a good idea to move to for various practical reasons.


Gunji 

"Asking IWM to retool and produce plastic instead of metal would be like asking your fruit shop to start selling meat instead of fruit."

 
That's be-labored and really not apropos.  I'm not asking that IW sell completely different product, I'm hoping they look into the better alternatives that are out there.

I don't think plastic is the future, at least not the only one and most definitely not for high quality "painter" miniatures. Just as I don't think CAD is the exclusive and automatically perfect future.

I'm going to sound like a jerk in this post but I'm trying to avoid the more emotional gut reactions and keep this discussion on an even keel.  I won't address plastic as the future anymore.  If you guys can't see it in the lines coming out these days, and the advantages that plastic provides to manufacturer, company, and hobbyist then it's not a good idea to continue belaboring the point.  As an avid hobbyist myself, I am confident saying plastic gives a much more superior material for just about any aspect of the hobby.  as for "exclusive" and "automatically perfect", those are words you inserted into the conversation.  if you like we can debate the differences but ultimately it feels as if you guys are stuck in the pro-metal/anti-plastic side, and I'm not getting the impression that conversation would go anywhere.  As I have stated a couple of times, I'm not completely tied to plastics, since this was more about digital sculpting, which in this case would definitely produce a higher quality product.  even the guys who don't understand you can do really good organic figures in digital often say it's superior for mechanical models....

Anyway, I'm done with the material issue.

I look at the digital Wyrd miniatures, I look at Raging Heroes, I look at Kingdom Death, I look at Reaper's CAV line, ... and while there are some nice, very nice even, miniatures, most of them don't appeal to me. I find them sterile, too "perfect" and lifeless.
Speaking of Reaper's CAV line, I never understood why people regard them so highly and point to this particular line to show the superiority of CAD designed metal cast miniatures. The line has a mere 90 miniatures. It wouldn't be difficult to find 90 BattleTech sculpts that are better. The CAV Mechs are more consistent in scale, I give them that, but otherwise they are just stiff, chunky and lifeless metal hulks with an ok level of detail at best. Give me hand sculpted BattleTech minis with their flaws any day

I can't buy into the idea that cad drawn miniatures are lifeless.  So these lack life:

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-9.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-14.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-13.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-12.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-11.jpg

They're some of the most dynamic miniatures in the hobby right now.  "Life" is instilled by the artist, not the medium, this is a basic artistic concept.  Having done both, I can tell you there's no fundamental difference between the way both process work.  Digital has the advantage of being more accurate and providing more detail.  In fact, one of the more common complaints right now in the industry by the artist and companies is that you can do too much detail, that get's lost once it's been reduced to the proper size, etc.

By the way, those kits fit together wonderfully and would be super easy to modify should you so choose.

As for CAV, those models were ok.  They were all done by John Bear Ross who's work, while decent, isn't my taste.  I only really liked a couple of CAV minis, but they were much more crisp sculpts, more machine like with straight solid panel lines etc.

The lines on this machine: http://ironwindmetals.com/store/popup_image.php?pID=8881&type=jpg are "wobbly", not completely even or straight.  I don't see more "life" I see a miniature sculpted in a soft material trying to represent a machine made of hard, heavy materials.

This machine:  http://www.miniature-giant.com/emperor-cav-oop-Reaper-Combat-Assault-Vehicle-CAV-sku-7108-pr-4444.html  looks like a machine, created and built like a machine is supposed to be.  Whether you like the overall aesthetic, you cannot deny it looks more like a machine then the first example, yes?

The panel line thing the mech sculptors and artist stick with is dated - just look at the MWO mechs done digitally, those look fantastic and are what mechs should look more like these days.  This should be the future of BT:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MechWarrior-Online-Atlas-Concept.jpg
and that can only be done well, digitally.


I think we can settle on cad designed metals but I think you guys should just take the time to consider the real advantages to doing something radical like pre-painted plastic lance kits for beginners.  I can't buy any hobbyist who says he can't deal with pre-painted minis.  If they're not in the toy style soft plastic, they're as easy to paint and easier to modify then any metal miniature ever will be.

Anyway, barring anything really coming to the table other than the stuff we've been rehashing the last few days I'm going to drop out of the conversation.  I hope IW doesn't let the line stagnate by continuing with the status quo when they could do better but I have no control over it.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Well, it is not as if you are constantly bringing up new points ... also it wasn't me who started with the "strong words", I merely continued along the lines you established.

... 3D sculpting is hands down better and faster ... I know for a fact BT mechs would get 1000 time better as models ... showing plastic digitally designed kits are superior ... digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate ...  unwillingness to move to better way of design and production is holding the product line back ... fantastic digitally sculpted plastics ...

... since this was more about digital sculpting, which in this case would definitely produce a higher quality product.  even the guys who don't understand you can do really good organic figures in digital often say it's superior for mechanical models....

And here I disagree. Sure, it can produce a better product. But definitely?

I can't buy into the idea that cad drawn miniatures are lifeless.  So these lack life:
...
They're some of the most dynamic miniatures in the hobby right now.  "Life" is instilled by the artist, not the medium, this is a basic artistic concept.

Ah, but as miniature painters we are not talking about a blank canvas. Sure, a good artist can make any sculpt come alive. But with miniatures the canvas usually provides inspiration to the artist. If the canvas (the miniature) doesn't inspire me, why should I feel the urge to paint it?
Your examples have some "life" because they are painted. The product presentation showing a 3D render is lifeless, sterile, everything but inspiring (see the CAV mini you linked to). A picture of the inked miniature on the IWM website is can be more inspiring.

And they could as easily be modified if they were resin or metal. Personal preference of material.

The panel line thing the mech sculptors and artist stick with is dated - just look at the MWO mechs done digitally, those look fantastic and are what mechs should look more like these days.  This should be the future of BT:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MechWarrior-Online-Atlas-Concept.jpg
and that can only be done well, digitally.

Yes, MWO has some cool re-imaginations of classic Mechs (they all look kinda the same though, sharing many design elements and the novelty factor is starting to wear off ...). But could only CAD turn them into good 3D miniatures? All it would take to prove that notion wrong is, say, Psycho to sculpt one.

I never said I am completely against CAD and think it has a lot of potential (as repeatedly stated above). But I don't buy into CAD being the best thing to ever happen to miniatures you sell it as.

[worktroll]

Okay, everyone, it's getting a bit heated here. I strongly recommend pausing for a few deep breaths.

At the end of the day, all we have are opinions. We're all entitled to have our own opinions, but we have to recognise others have just as much right to their own. I suggest we watch developments and let the people who actually run mini-making businesses make their decisions, and let the market decide.

W.

[grabula]

worktroll, I don't feel it's getting heated, at least not for my part.  I did say I might start sounding like a jerk but only because I insist on better arguments than are often acceptable for the internet.
However, just sitting aside and letting things happen is why I believe BT isn't a more popular game.  The status quo has been so 'acceptable' for so long that it hasn't changed much.  Voicing our opinions on the matter in forums like these is part of how the market decides what it wants.

But could only CAD turn them into good 3D miniatures? All it would take to prove that notion wrong is, say, Psycho to sculpt one.

I have to assume Psycho is one of the IW sculptors?  I can guarantee they'd be done better digitally for the reasons I pointed out the current line of mechs don't hold up well to close analysis.  I'm a scratchbuilder myself.  I say scratchbuilder and not sculptor because my organic work is not good but my mechanical work is spot on and I've done some stuff in the past for smaller minis companies.  I work in plastics and metals and a little putty here and there to put my stuff together and I can't do what a digital sculptor can do.  It's something that was hard for me to face since I enjoy it so much but ultimately it's why I embraced learning to do digital work.  It's just a new medium for artist and it's hard for some people to accept that.

The one thing I can honestly say about building something using raw material and building it digitally is even at my low level of skill digitally speaking, it's easier to do mechanical subjects.  As usual I've found more organic subject matter to be more difficult.

[grabula]

From what I understand, some mechs have been done digitally, anyone which ones have for sure?  I thought the two special clan mechs in the anniversary box were?

[cavingjan]

The first attempts at the recent LAMs were done digitally. They never got released and had to be started over. I believe the entire resculpted 3050 clan omni series was done in CAD. The two plastic omnis from the box set were created from the metal minis.

[Psycho]

From what I understand, some mechs have been done digitally, anyone which ones have for sure?  I thought the two special clan mechs in the anniversary box were?

Out of curiosity, what are you ten favourite BT minis you've worked with? Top ten BT minis overall?

[StCptMara]

Out of curiosity, what are you ten favourite BT minis you've worked with? Top ten BT minis overall?

Current sculpt Atlas, Blood Kite, Axeman, Atlas II, Unseen Rifleman, Taisho, current Huron Warrior,
Reseen Marauder II, Balius, Hammerhands.

[grabula]

you mean my favorite top ten sculpts?  There are a few I enjoy.  The ones I don't generally suffer from the initial design.  If it resembles a design from the earlier TRO's I probably am not much of a fan - as a generalization.

I like the Barghest, Fafnir and the LGB-12C.  In fact, the 12C I like because it lacks the hull lines designers insist on putting on most mech designs.  Those hull lines shouldn't really show up at the scale these miniatures are at.  The latest battlemaster isn't bad, for mainly the same reasons.

Sorry, can't really break it down into top ten though.  Most mech models are ok, some are truly horrible.  They have certainly improved over time anyway.

[GRUD]

I have to assume Psycho is one of the IW sculptors?  I can guarantee they'd be done better digitally for the reasons I pointed out the current line of mechs don't hold up well to close analysis.

Actually, you CAN'T "Guarantee" that, without having the same mini done by Psycho as well as someone doing it digitally.  Like so many arguments (from everyone) in this thread, that's simply Your Opinion, rather than a Known Fact.  A lot of views expressed here are purely Opinion rather than Certifiably Proven/Provable Fact.


Yet another problem I can see with pre-painted plastics for BT is the fact that there's so many different "Factions", whether it be House, Clan or Merc Unit.  In SW, the Empire uses one scheme (gray and black), while the Rebels use another (gray and red), so it's not like there's a HUGE Variety of colors in the SW minis line.   :-\   Also, as GunjiNoKanrei pointed out, the color of the primer influences the finished paintjob.  Sure, we've all seen re-painted MWDA minis that turned out well, but I wonder how many are simply what the painter "settled" for, rather than what they really Wanted to do?   ???  I've no idea how involved a process it would be, to change the paint lines over from one "scheme" to another, but to paint a single "Iconic" mini for one faction would require MANY changeovers to paint one in all available Canon schemes.  For example, painting a Panther for House Kurita alone would probably be 10+ paint schemes, including their House Units and House Merc Units. Then you've got the Panthers for the other Houses and their Mercs, various independent Merc Units, Comstar, various Periphery Units. . .   #P


As it is, ANY time a new mini is released, you have a mix of people both praising AND condemning it for various reasons.  For every 5 people praising a mini for one feature, you'll have as many complaining about the same thing.  Surely you've noticed by now: No One can make EVERY BT Fan Happy at the same time.  #P   Something else to keep in mind is this is NOT the MWDA Fan Site, this is the Classic BattleTech Fan Site.  The people on this site that are into minis (and lets face it, not everyone that enjoys BT is in it for the minis), are generally into minis that they can paint As They Please.  They DON'T want pre-painted minis, whether they're made of resin, plastic, or some metal alloy (lead, pewter, etc.).  I'm one of those Collector's that owns more unpainted minis than painted, and the vast majority of painted ones I do own I bought that way, or commissioned someone to paint for me.  I'm a "basic" painter at best, and I'm Well Aware of that fact.  I've painted two of my minis, 23 years apart.  One is black with red highlights (a Raven), the other is gold with silver highlights (Unseen Ostroc).  Still, if I ever get the bug to paint a mini, it will be a metal one of some sort.   O0

[grabula]

Actually, you CAN'T "Guarantee" that, without having the same mini done by Psycho as well as someone doing it digitally.  Like so many arguments (from everyone) in this thread, that's simply Your Opinion, rather than a Known Fact.  A lot of views expressed here are purely Opinion rather than Certifiably Proven/Provable Fact.

It's not opinion, all things being equal, which was the assumption I thought we were making.  In fact this entire argument could be quantifiable pretty easily if we had the product, time and resources to do so.

regardless guys, it's been fun.  I'll continue to play, continue to buy, and continue to hope that things change.

[klarg1]

I know that when Mantic switched from metal to their current Resin-Plastic line, one of the things that they supposedly did
is NOT switch molds. They apparently have a brand and blend of resin-plastic that can be spin cast, just like the Reaper
Bones(though, apparently, Reaper's Bones line DOES need new molds made, but..they are still spin-cast). I have wondered
if IWM can experiment with that sort of switch, and what the downsides to switching to a new substance that can use
the same molds as they use for the metal?

Reaper Bones are a PVC-based material that gets cast at very high pressures in precision-milled steel injection molds. Those molds cost on the order of $20-50k apiece, which is why only very high volume lines, such as Bones and Space Marines^TM can really be handled that way. A Battlemech mini that sells a few dozen units (or less) per year will quite simply never get made using injection molding techniques (with current technology).

A number of brands are switching part of their production over to spin-castable resins (Privateer, for one). As I understand it, the material is hell on molds, but it can be cast using the same class of mold as you use for metal ($~500-100 each), and the material has become price-competetive with pewter as tin prices have been rising over time.

I do think we will see more plastics in the future, but a sudden drop in tin prices (who knows - commodities are weird), could quickly drive things back the other way. CAD or not, the low-production lines are almost certainly going to stick with the standard spin-casting techniques until something equally cheap comes along.

[mike19k]

I would have to 2nd GRUD's prepaited point. I am someone who does not paint much, not very good at it, to get a OK job takes lots of time. So I am lucky enough to have a painter in the area. I have had him paint up a cluster of clan Smoke Jaguar for me, also three different FS Mech companies, and three Merc units two cannon, one home built with custom paint. Doing this with prepainted would be much more difficult at best.

[klarg1]

For the pre-painted vs. not debate:

Please keep in mind that CGL approaches Battletech as an odd mix of board game and RPG. (A mix that I, personally, love) With the notable exception of Alpha Strike, CGL isn't really producing a miniatures game, and they says so right in the rule book where the suggest counters as a perfectly viable option for play.

For historical and cultural reasons, CGL has a good relationship with a miniatures manufacturer who produces a line of licensed minis that go with Battletech. Certainly the two cooperate and communicate, but, ultimately, IWM is producing the miniatures line, and they have geared it towards hobbyists. It should not be a surprise that they went that way, given their history and business model, and the history of Ral Partha before that.

CGL has made forays into mass production miniatures with the BT box set and with Leviathans. I am not qualified to say how it went, or what their future plans are, but note that Leviathans launched with only six different models split among two factions. For a small company bootstrapping an expensive product line (High-quality, pre-painted models), that is a pretty typical scale. While Fantasy Flight is off to a slightly faster start, their Star Wars line is similarly limited and slow-growing.

Sticking with just the (relatively) simple world of 3025, it is hard to imagine how anybody could afford to launch a reasonable line for all five major factions of the Inner Sphere, with 30 or 40 common battlemechs, most of them shared among them. Once you add in minor factions and alternate eras, the problem rapidly spirals completely out of control.

It might be an option to launch a lower-grade line of pre-paints (perhaps at the level of the non-premium box set minis) in one or two standard, simple, paint schemes and include faction markers as stickers or something to mark your forces. They would be, essentially, high end game pieces for a board game, which has been done, but isn't very exciting to me.

Phew! I expected this post to be shorter, but the miniatures business has become a major interest for me in the last couple of years. I tend to ramble.

[grabula]

Doing this with prepainted would be much more difficult at best.

based on what mike19?

and they have geared it towards hobbyists.

what do you mean by this klarg?  How would you say IW is gearing their minis towards the hobbyist?

It might be an option to launch a lower-grade line of pre-paints (perhaps at the level of the non-premium box set minis) in one or two standard, simple, paint schemes and include faction markers as stickers or something to mark your forces. They would be, essentially, high end game pieces for a board game, which has been done, but isn't very exciting to me.

 I don't think they have to be low grade at all.  For example the initial few waves of AT 43 minis were painted better than the average tabletop paint job I've been exposed too.  The current line of XWing minis are also done in a way that is generally better than they would be done by a lot of gamers for the tabletop, based on scale and detail, which is actually pretty good.

I occupy a location where players aren't forced to paint for any tournaments or official events and in some cases models aren't even completely assembled!  The reason is a lot of gamers aren't inclined to hobby unless they have too.  That's why prepaints do well with a certain crowd and why I think it's a good idea for certain lines, especially lines that can be done easily.  A Battlemech really needs one base color, maybe a highlight color, and some detail on the canopy to make it look good.  Decals as you say to mark units would help but a basic drybrush over a base coat and a mech miniature would look fine, if not very similar to most paint jobs I see anyway.

[cavingjan]

what do you mean by this klarg?  How would you say IW is gearing their minis towards the hobbyist?

Hobbyists are the gamers\nongamers who prefer to paint the minis and spend more time away from the table preparing for the games than playing the games.

The Star Wars minis that I have seen I would give a B for quality of the sculpt but a solid C for painting. You can tell it was done by an assembly line with care for speed than quality. I did notice a difference between the first run of the XWings vs a recent reprint of them. Maybe it was just individual ones that were different or someone touched up the one set.

If you are going to play factions, you need a base color, one or two highlights, your gunmetal, and probably a wash for each and every faction. See the MW:DA for how to do the painting. Granted they did three schemes for each faction but the only difference was typically ratio of paint. Now make sure when you do your Mad Cats that you have at least 6 different paint schemes (that is only going to cover the 6 remaining IS clans and makes no room for mercs or the house militaries having them). Start multiplying that out and you see the SKU count gets rather large real quick. This isn't a game that has two factions or a game in which only one faction can have access to a sculpt. Battletech is also a game that does not require the correct miniature to play the game.

Let's take the Hound as a good example and walk through the faction list. (and I am not going to even get into the different military units of these factions other than point out that there are a lot of different mercs out there.) This is a unit that I created for the Periphery\Merc volume of TRO:3145. I was (happily) surprised at how far this mech had spread. It was concepted and intended for the Filtvelt to give them their first home designed and manufactured Battlemech (retrotech was their previous level of manufacturing). I found it on the FedSuns, Mercs, and Taurian Concordat. The Phoenix Hawk L is found on the Kurita, FWL, Republic of the Sphere, Jade Falcons, and Mercs.

[klarg1]

what do you mean by this klarg?  How would you say IW is gearing their minis towards the hobbyist?

Cavingjan summed it up pretty well.
They have multiple parts, and are bare-metal. Good for miniatures hobbyists, but inconvenient, at best, for a gamer who does not care about painting minis. Aside from lower cost to manufacture and sell, I can't think of a single advantage to those features, from a purely gaming stand point, can anybody else?

I am a miniatures hobbyist, so it makes me happy (I am one of those people who likes multi-part minis, because they save me the effort of cutting things apart), but I am well aware that that opinion is in the minority of gamers.

[worktroll]

On a derail from the 3D printing, but towards the prepainting - I must admit that there are a few of the earlier set MW:DA minis I've hung onto because they're just so pretty and well done. The Arbalest in both Bannson's & Dragoons colours, and the Mjolnir in Bannsons, some Republic Raiders - they have really done base/detail/metal schemes, with drybrushing and even a little dirtying down.

(Yes, OK, by the end - Solaris packs I'm looking at you - they were very cartoony, block colours, not to my liking).

With Leviathans we very deliberately chose to walk a fine line between the gamer & painter factions. We have nicely high-detail ships, with a light prepaint - light base, brass details, some black, & a very light wash. Gamers can play them out of the box, painters can very quickly use our work as a base to paint marvelous things on. However, we've got greater factional "purity" at this time. I'd find it hard to figure out how CGL can profitably sell faction packs of pre-painted mecha, be they plastic of metal.

(OTOH, Army Painter/magic dip/etc means it's much easier to actually get a good table-ready paintjob going easily, even for first-timers. I do realise that doesn't help everyone, but it could help some.)

W>

[grabula]

Hobbyists are the gamers\nongamers who prefer to paint the minis and spend more time away from the table preparing for the games than playing the games.

I always take some offense to this assumption when it comes down to it.  I'm a hobbyist - I spend more time painting, sculpting, converting and whatnot then I do gaming, but only because a game takes a couple of hours at most.  Painting a handful of miniatures takes me probably on average about 10 hrs.  I enjoy the hobby side and sometimes would prefer that, others I'd prefer to be gaming.  however there are certainly people out there who do hobby a lot more than gaming.

If you are going to play factions, you need a base color, one or two highlights, your gunmetal, and probably a wash for each and every faction.

 

This is subjective.  For example I don't think gunmetal belongs on mechs in general unless it's part of the scheme (observe that real world military equipment tends to painted from head to toe, barrels and all.) but I understand why some people like to pick those details out.  A Base color and a highlight are bare minimum to make a model table quality in my opinion.  I've seen decent looking armies done this way, though I prefer more work put into mine.  A wash, or shade layer certainly helps add depth but if you highlight then the base coat stands in as the shade layer.

As for having different color schemes per mech - it can be done, however, as you say it's a lot of work and I don't believe it's necessary.  As a business model, my proposal was this in the other thread:

Initial box set with 8 miniatures, 4 of one faction, four of another.  Each mech would be painted in a simple matching scheme for it's faction.  Later, Versus packs would be released that include another lance per faction, still in simple faction matching paint schemes.  They could be played out of the box AND their simplicity allows players who don't have the time or ability to come close to matching them with out too much effort, if they so desire

You guys have worn me out.  I can't really continue breaking down each argument in detail.  As a hobbyist I work with unpainted un assembled models in all sorts of materials, I make my own in various materials and I've worked (currently am working on Dust figures actually) that come pre-painted and I personally have had no issues with pre-painted miniatures from a hobbyist standpoint.  I also keep an open mind when it comes to the fact that some people can't or don't want to hobby, and prepainted minis allows those players to put something on the table that has paint on it, which I think is a win for anyone.

I'm obviously not going to convince you guys about the hobby and prepaint thing - I find it a frustrating subject in any game since "hobbyist" as they call themselves tend to be pretty myopic about it.  I am confident new or old company, could be made to work ultimately bring in more players and reinvigorate the game.  I can't however make those decisions so I ride those being made currently.

My closing shot is just that I think it's a shame digital sculpting hasn't come into play with BT yet, regardless of the end material mechs are made and that I hope in the future this changes.

[worktroll]

I strongly suspect it will, given time. Maybe even happening, where we can't see it yet. If you'd been on the Reaper forums a year ago, would we have known about Bones, I wonder?

[cavingjan]

Grabula: your approach works for many games. It is the preferred way to start new games that have limited factiosn and units. The only way I see that scheme working in the BT setting is to use the Star League era. Star League vs Rebels. Even then you have an outlay of about a half million dollars to just create the molds unless the current intro box set minis are good enough to use which I doubt.

[mike19k]

based on what mike19?

Just take the Mad Cat, they would need to have how many different paint jobs? There would be the 17 Clans, +1 if you count Wolf in Exile, and then how many IS factions got it? And that is just one mini. Also not counting how most of the galaxeys each have a different paint.

[Adrian Gideon]

Where's this misconception coming from, that if there were prepainted minis for BattleTech, that they'd have to cover every single faction and subfaction? No, of course that wouldn't work, so that would not be the approach.

[klarg1]

I always take some offense to this assumption when it comes down to it.  I'm a hobbyist - I spend more time painting, sculpting, converting and whatnot then I do gaming, but only because a game takes a couple of hours at most.  Painting a handful of miniatures takes me probably on average about 10 hrs.  I enjoy the hobby side and sometimes would prefer that, others I'd prefer to be gaming.  however there are certainly people out there who do hobby a lot more than gaming.
 

This is subjective.  For example I don't think gunmetal belongs on mechs in general unless it's part of the scheme (observe that real world military equipment tends to painted from head to toe, barrels and all.) but I understand why some people like to pick those details out.  A Base color and a highlight are bare minimum to make a model table quality in my opinion.  I've seen decent looking armies done this way, though I prefer more work put into mine.  A wash, or shade layer certainly helps add depth but if you highlight then the base coat stands in as the shade layer.

As for having different color schemes per mech - it can be done, however, as you say it's a lot of work and I don't believe it's necessary.  As a business model, my proposal was this in the other thread:

Initial box set with 8 miniatures, 4 of one faction, four of another.  Each mech would be painted in a simple matching scheme for it's faction.  Later, Versus packs would be released that include another lance per faction, still in simple faction matching paint schemes.  They could be played out of the box AND their simplicity allows players who don't have the time or ability to come close to matching them with out too much effort, if they so desire

You guys have worn me out.  I can't really continue breaking down each argument in detail.  As a hobbyist I work with unpainted un assembled models in all sorts of materials, I make my own in various materials and I've worked (currently am working on Dust figures actually) that come pre-painted and I personally have had no issues with pre-painted miniatures from a hobbyist standpoint.  I also keep an open mind when it comes to the fact that some people can't or don't want to hobby, and prepainted minis allows those players to put something on the table that has paint on it, which I think is a win for anyone.

I'm obviously not going to convince you guys about the hobby and prepaint thing - I find it a frustrating subject in any game since "hobbyist" as they call themselves tend to be pretty myopic about it.  I am confident new or old company, could be made to work ultimately bring in more players and reinvigorate the game.  I can't however make those decisions so I ride those being made currently.

My closing shot is just that I think it's a shame digital sculpting hasn't come into play with BT yet, regardless of the end material mechs are made and that I hope in the future this changes.

I can't speak for everybody, but I think I have been very careful to separate out each issue. (I haven't commented on 3D sculpting at all, as far as I can remember.)

You are right that pre-paints are useful, and perfectly viable. They are not, however, "a win for anyone". You have yet to convince me that it would be a win for Ironwind.

I tried very hard to separate general market dynamics - which may support your suggestions - and the peculiar business of Battletech. Introducing plastic pre-paints is not an automatic win for IWM. They are not set up for it, and I doubt they can afford to do it at a competitive price. Prepaints are nearly always made overseas because of the labor costs involved in the painting.

IWM could contract with an overseas manufacturer, but... so could CGL. If your argument is that Catalyst should go out and start a line of pre-painted 'mechs, I suppose it could work out, but the game world is very poorly set up for it. I'm sure it could be done, but it would be a significant risk in terms of both financial outlay and potential fights with the fan base over universe support. I cannot say whether that risk would be worthwhile or not.

The same set of risks surround a switch to injection-molded plastic. It has a massive financial outlay for a relatively small number of products that all have to sell at high volume. It can work, but it is, once again, at odds with the current Battletech model. It might be possible to change that model, but it is still a high risk.

Will CGL (possibly with help from IWM) dive down that path? I can't say. To my amateur eye, it looks unlikely in the near future, but I have certainly been wrong before.

...

*reads above*

....

AAaaarrgghhhh!!! I'm a ******* software engineer, and you have me all wrapped up in cost models and risk analysis. You will all suffer for this!

[GRUD]

Where's this misconception coming from, that if there were prepainted minis for BattleTech, that they'd have to cover every single faction and subfaction? No, of course that wouldn't work, so that would not be the approach.

Thank You for seeing my Point, and for illustrating it so eloquently!   O0


That points out EXACTLY why "3D Printed, Pre-painted Plastic" minis are NOT the "Be All, End All" way for BattleTech to go.  I'm saying you would have to do that, if that's the only way you want BT players to be able to have any minis.  If the Player isn't able to paint their own, as they choose, the company providing the pre-painted minis would HAVE to cover every single Faction and Subfaction in the BT Universe, in order to please them.  Otherwise, rather than Gain Players, you risk Losing them instead.   :-\

[mike19k]

Thank You for seeing my Point, and for illustrating it so eloquently!   O0


That points out EXACTLY why "3D Printed, Pre-painted Plastic" minis are NOT the "Be All, End All" way for BattleTech to go.  I'm saying you would have to do that, if that's the only way you want BT players to be able to have any minis.  If the Player isn't able to paint their own, as they choose, the company providing the pre-painted minis would HAVE to cover every single Faction and Subfaction in the BT Universe, in order to please them.  Otherwise, rather than Gain Players, you risk Losing them instead.   :-\

That was kind of what I was trying to say. Back with ClickTech there were people in the area that I played who did not get in to the game as they could not field the army that they wanted, they did not make them in that faction, then there were others such as myself who did  play but did not stay with it long term as it got to irritating due to trying to file d a good army and stay faction pure.

[StCptMara]

Where's this misconception coming from, that if there were prepainted minis for BattleTech, that they'd have to cover every single faction and subfaction? No, of course that wouldn't work, so that would not be the approach.

Because the point of pre-paints is so that no-one would ever have to paint their minis, and so they have to
be completely representative of every possibility that someone would want to play, I am guessing.

Frankly, I do not understand the people who want pre-painted minis for BattleTech, or any game for that
matter. I hated that you were not allowed to repaint your minis in MW:DA/AoD(oh, yes..technically, you
were, but since BattleMasters could disallow repainted minis if they chose to, and there was no official
standard of how much you could do...you were effectively not allowed to repaint them and play in
sanctioned events).

[Adrian Gideon]

That's absurd.

This:

Because the point of pre-paints is so that no-one would ever have to paint their minis,

Does not equal this:

and so they have to be completely representative of every possibility that someone would want to play, I am guessing.

Its like saying IWM has to produce every variant in existence, or there's just no point. Heck, it's like saying there's no point in IWM producing minis, unless they produce every minis possible, right now. It's all throwing the baby out with the bath water mentality.

[StCptMara]

Well, Adrian..that is the problem: The small group wanting pre-painted minis are looking at
things in an absurd way. I am, in general, opposed to pre-painted because: How do you
pick which units will get their schemes represented? If you release all "modern" Davion
Guards schemes, for example, you would be alienating people like me who like the
"Classic" Davion Guards scheme. If you do the 6th Lyran Guards, you alienate fans of
the Lyran Regulars. And, you know, let's not even get into the Kurita  or Merc side of
things...To not alienate anyone, you would have to do all the paint schemes.

Yeah..I think I will stick with painting my own minis rather then have THAT PR mess come
out.

[Adrian Gideon]

Because you're looking at it either or. You rather have minis you can paint however you like, as opposed to minis with a set paint scheme you have no interest in.

Fair enough.

Where in this discussion did they become mutually exclusive?  ???

CGL made plastics for the box set. My metals didn't suddenly evaporate, and yet these minis are a great cheap product for newbies (and veterans) alike. And holy cow, they work just fine with the minis I have.

So...if life for you is great right now without prepainted "modern" DBoG minis, then what would that change if prepainted "modern" DBoG minis were made available?

[StCptMara]

Because you're looking at it either or. You rather have minis you can paint however you like, as opposed to minis with a set paint scheme you have no interest in.

Fair enough.

Where in this discussion did they become mutually exclusive?  ???

Yeah, my first post on the pre-painted was an attempt to play devil's advocate, and trying to explain the position
from the understanding I had. However, I would see the biggest issue with pre-painted minis is the selection
process of which schemes to paint. It would be a PR nightmare, because you would have fans of one unit crying
fowl that their unit wasn't picked but some other, "lesser" unit was. (For example, as a fan of the 7th Sword of Light,
I see the Ryuken as dishonorable potential traitors, and the Genyosha as a bunch of wannabes, and the other
Swords of Light as cowardly because they are not willing to wade into close combat like the 7th will!) It would be
the same as telling fans of that unit "Oh..you want this in that units scheme? Better learn to paint, because TPTB
either a) like this unit better or b) believe this unit will sell more." The second, of course, would lead to mostly
Wolf, Falcon, and Davion schemes being represented, since those are the three biggest factions among the fan-base.

Frankly, pre-painted is just not worth the kvetching and stress it would put on TPTB, so..it is just not a good idea.
It has nothing to do with the status quo, but more to do with how...passionate a fan community we have. This is
one of those areas where it is a bad thing.

[BirdofPrey]

Why do prepaints HAVE to specifically be the 5th Lyran guards or whatever unit it is?
Something wrong with just doing units up in a generic Lyran Alliance color scheme?  To be honest it seems to me that it's generally only the painters who even care to specify specific units, everyone else just puts generic davion or generic DCMS or whatever on the board.

As much as I would like to get into the hobby, the fact is I don't have the time to assemble and paint every single minature of the mechs I like to use, so preassembled, prepainted forces would be great.  Now I get some people like to paint miniatures for the sake of that alone, but let's not forget the whole POINT of minatures is to be a play piece primarily, so, in my mind, the hobbiests take second priority anyways, and I do understand BT is designed to be able to be played on mapsheets with counters, but that's not how everyone plays.  My group uses hexed terrain and minis, and it does certainly look better. . .
up until I have to place bare metal on the table because I haven't been able to paint it yet.
====
Anyways, I think a lot of this does have to do with the installed user base.  As much as I love BT, it shows it's age at times and has horrible feature creep.  Theres hundreds of different units, many of which are extremely minor variations on another unit meaning there's too many minis and as much as I like having different formations with their own color scheme, I can;t help but think there's just a few too many different color schemes and some units in a faction don't always even seem to have too much in common. If more unit color shcemes were simple variations on the faction paint job rather than something totally different, pre-paints would be less of a problem..  As for IWM, they have had quality control issues in the past and a related scale creep, which is a minor annoyance.  Then there's the fact the companies ARE different companies, CGL and the companies before them just produced game books for the most part, IWM was just licensed to create companion products.

That's just what you get from running for a few decades, though the current guard seems to care a bit more about keeping these things under control.
If BT were launched today it would probably have a bit more horizontal integration with TPTB being active in managing mini production, and you probably would be seeing prepainted minis for ease of play which would mean most unit paint jobs would be a matter of adding an insignia and an extra highlight color to the faction paintjob.

As for making CAD designs, I do think that's the future, though I noticed a few people a couple weeks ago seemed to think that implies print on demand which isn't happening.  We are talking about mechanical units, and it's much easier to make the straight lines and sharp angles machines have with another machine.  I still like the metal minis just fine, but I hope IWM can work things out to make more masters through CAD.


On a side note, I should mention, while I do want to see a bit more detail on some minis, the thing I want to be spot on every time more than anything else is how well the pieces fit together.  A number of minis have protrusions on parts with corresponding holes in the other part that mates to it, and most of the time they don't line up all that well.  The first mini I ever assembled was an owens, first of all, the arms droop which should have never passed quality control and I don't care for the way the right foot looks, but my main beef is when it came time to put it together when I put the legs into the feet, there was at least 15 degrees of play there AND the pins molded in were a millimeter too long plus a milimeter too small in diameter so that most of the mating area was empty space.l

I know not all minis are like that, but the problem hasn't been totally eliminated and it isn't new juding by the fact I have some old Ral Partha Riflemen with domes on the arms to center them properly that are a mite too large that I had to sand down a bit so the arm would sit flat on the shouler.

[Adrian Gideon]

Why do prepaints HAVE to specifically be the 5th Lyran guards or whatever unit it is?
Something wrong with just doing units up in a generic Lyran Alliance color scheme?  To be honest it seems to me that it's generally only the painters who even care to specify specific units, everyone else just puts generic davion or generic DCMS or whatever on the board.

thank you. In short, prepaints would bring others into the game/hobby, not deny existing fans  anything. The outcry over what isn't in the intro box set hasn't stopped it from selling like gangbusters.

[mike19k]

Why do prepaints HAVE to specifically be the 5th Lyran guards or whatever unit it is?
Something wrong with just doing units up in a generic Lyran Alliance color scheme?  To be honest it seems to me that it's generally only the painters who even care to specify specific units, everyone else just puts generic davion or generic DCMS or whatever on the board.

So for generic FS what color are you going to go with? I went to CSO for cannon colors and picked the first three units there cannon colors are 1st Aragon Borderers Blue and White, 1st Argyle Lancers Black with Red and White highlights, 1st Capellan Dragoons Green and Black with gold Highlights. I next looked at the three that have the most painted units guessing that they are the most popular 1st Federated Sun's Armored Cavalry Green with white highlights, 17th Avalon Hussars gray with crimson highlights, and last 3rd Crucis Lancers Green with yellow highlights. So for generic color what do you go with? They are more like the US Civil War Army than todays Army in that each unit has a different paint scheme. And as for as the only painters caring about specify units, I am not a painter but I do care about having correct paint scheme on the units, Right now I have three Davion companies, two Merc companies, and most of a Smoke Jaguar cluster that I have had painted in cannon colors.

[BirdofPrey]

I was under the impression generic AFFS/AFFC colors were red white and blue vertical bands, though that would make them more expensive to prepaint due to the extra colors.  Everyone else is fairly straightforward.   LCAF/LAAF are blue, DCMS is red, CCAF is Green, FWLM is purple and Com guards are white and WoB is also white, but sometimes fades to red or black on MD units.

[Adrian Gideon]

It's actually covered in the Introductory Box Set, in the Painting and Tactics guide. You're quite close. Both Davion and Liao get green, Davion a dark green (Hunter Green or Olive Drab are acceptable) and Liao a bright green (like Kelly Green or a jade green).

[grabula]

Yeah..I think I will stick with painting my own minis rather then have THAT PR mess come
out.

ugh, I think my biggest issue with people opposed to pre-paints is the myopic view they tend to take - at least the most vocal.  I'll call anyone out who says they absolutely have/had issues repainting pre-paints.  I've done it on crappy plastics - like the old MWDA minis, and I've done it on better plastic pre-paints and I have never had an issue.  My guess would be the issue comes in the artist and not the material.

However, BirdofPrey hit the nail on the head, and it's a point most anti-prepaint guys, especially in this thread for some reason, are getting stuck on.  Pre-paints are representative.  If course you can't do every unit like that, it's a silly concept all together and I can totally see the frustration in that, however that idea misses the point altogether.  The point is that if Lyran mechs are commonly painted blue and white, then including blue and white prepainted mechs in a set is enough to represent any Lyran unit you want. 

I can guarantee it's not a "small" community who want pre-paints.  People have come out of the wood work to play prepainted games historically - MWDA, heroclix, etc...  I saw more people play MWDA in the few years it was out then I've ever seen play CBT lol.  That tells me there is a market there not being tapped.  People who want to play, but don't want to hobby.  Pre-paints, as I've already pointed out, allow us to have our cake and eat it too.  Anything that brings more players to the table is a winner in my book, and I'd be willing to bet only the most extreme and reactive players would suddenly quit playing because of it.  my guess is even the guys who claim they don't like it, will continue playing.

[Spector]

The question I have is, why are we talking about pre painted minis on a thread about 3D printing? Sounds like this should be its own topic.

[Wolverine]

roger that,

however it is possible to create a 3D plastic part with colored plastic material, a rather limited color selection and not sure if you can mix colors on the same piece with much degree of control other than as horizontal stripes, but I've made mockup parts that way, I prefer to just airbrush the parts myself tho.

J

[speck]

Currently the Spectral LRM Kickstarter project is the experimentation with using CAD to 3D print the Masters. So far the results have been great, I saw the 3D printed parts for the Pwwka when I was out for GenCon and they looked great. There may be some other CAD to 3D Printed masters next year but its not going to be every mini done. It will be a case by case basis for when we finalize the 2014 release schedule.

[klarg1]

Currently the Spectral LRM Kickstarter project is the experimentation with using CAD to 3D print the Masters. So far the results have been great, I saw the 3D printed parts for the Pwwka when I was out for GenCon and they looked great. There may be some other CAD to 3D Printed masters next year but its not going to be every mini done. It will be a case by case basis for when we finalize the 2014 release schedule.

Speck,
The last Kickstarter update brought up the speed of 3D printing all the (dozens of) parts for the LAMs. Can you comment on the speed of going from concept to mold-master with with digital sculptors/3D vs. traditional sculptors and greens? (I presume that things are the same, once you have the masters)

I would love to hear what you guys have found.

(I will understand if you can't share that information.)

[wasp]

I believe that generic plastic painted mechs are a good idea for getting another group of people into the game. 

I think the best things about the miniatures aspect of Battletech is A>it is not WYSWYG B> canon paint schemes are pretty vague for personal interpretation and C> custom schemes are encouraged too.

That pretty much covers every sort of player type, the gamer, the hobbyist, the person with 100s of minis or the poor guy that might only have a couple of mechs or just the box set. 

I think the CGL and IWM have got things figured out.  Besides, as WT said, who knows what they have in the works.


Wasp

[ThatPirateGuy]

I think one area where 3d printing might be useful is in omni parts. I would definitely love to be able to build and paint wysiwyg variants.

[BirdofPrey]

Reading how many parts are getting made, I do hope the LAMs don't have the same problems as a certain reseen marauder.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Nothing to see. Move along...

[speck]

Reading how many parts are getting made, I do hope the LAMs don't have the same problems as a certain reseen marauder.

When I assembled the prototype Waneta it went together pretty easy. Had to take my time and make use of some sticky tack to hold parts while they dried.