How’s the 3D Printing Working Out?

[General308]

3D printing for the sake of generating a master sculpt isn't just the near future, it's the now. It takes an extremely skilled (meaning rare and expensive) traditional sculptor to pull off what a typical professional 3D modeler can do. You pay for that costly modeling, printing and mold making once, from then on your have a high quality and more importantly non-derpy miniature to sell. You don't need CGL artists to do the 3D themselves either (though Huda and I do use 3D), you just need a competent modeler under proper supervision from the original artist. I'd also argue that any good mech design requires some 2D work prior to modeling for the benefits it has to design, so there's no way to dodge that step effectively.
The sooner IWM switches over to 3D printing as it's main source of masters the better in my opinion.

3D printing for generating master sculpts has been used in CAV minis for over a decade now.  Frankly the CAV minis look awsome

[grabula]

Some big misconceptions about 3d modeling going around.

First,  sculpting the mini in 3d its as challenging as doing it by hand. .. and artistic but out can also be faster.   No drying or setting, mistakes are easier to correct as well.   This is of curse assuming relative skill levels are the same.

It's much easier to do smaller crisper detail in 3d software, model look more neat, cleaner lines.

Casting and molding will practically be the same regardless of the source of the initial model.

Iff you have reservations on how good 3D modeling can be,  then you absolutely have to check out wyrd miniatures line.  I own a10 thunder army that blows most model lines out of the water for clean lines.  Organic model are awesome in the hands of the right artist.

It's my honest opinion that its a mistake for ironwind if they arent seriously looking into this.

3D sculpting is hands down better and faster.  The cost per model is similar as well.  You dont need to own a 3D printer as this cabin be contacted out.

Seriously, if you haven't really liked at the current lines being digitally sculpted out there now then you really have no idea how good it is for ANY kind of model.   I know for a fact BT mechs would get 1000 time better as models.

[grabula]

To follow up,  the best thing to follow digital designs is to go with a good,  hard plastic. its admittedly more expensive to too up for plastic models so I can understand any trepidation there but out has definitely become much make attainable.   Several small unheard of until recently game companies are using or moving to plastic minis which indicates to more its much more a reality than even 10 years ago.

Out would be unfortunate if these things are not being researched and enacted sure to a manufacturers unwillingness to seriously consider updating the design and production process.  I'm not so much criticizing IW, I dont know what they're up to,  I am challenging the community to consider assuming for a better older all project.

Personally,  of BT were set up like the current Fantasy Flight produced XWing game I would be thrilled.   Plastic mechs in a blister with stat cards provided and effectively ready to play out of the package.

[GRUD]

Plastic mechs in a blister with stat cards provided and effectively ready to play out of the package.

That's been tried before by Wizkids, and it didn't turn out too well.   ;D

*Click, click, click!*


I DO like the looks of the SW minis though, but I'd like to have some of them just because they're SW, NOT for the game itself.  O0  I'm NOT paying $30.00 for the Millenium Falcon mini and all the game stuff that I'd never use, just to own the Falcon.  :P

[cavingjan]

Your biggest issue is the cost for plastic molds. It would work if we had a limited number of minis to produce a year and they were all omnis. If you only put out two dozen minis a year, it would be affordable particularly if you recycled components like WK did all the time. They either reused whole minis or parts of the minis to reduce costs. But when our last couple of TROs published three dozen mechs with a similar number of vehicles plus aerospace too, it isn't realistic unless you know what are going to be the big sellers up front and never produce the others.

I love the looks of the XWing game (just don't have the time for another game right now) and it will do well with plastics because they have released 12? sculpts. (very symetrical molds at that which really reduces the costs.

[grabula]

I mentioned this in my original thread but the random collecting aspect of mwda and the scale meant most bt players I know playing interest quick but digitally designed minis with a respectable paint job would do well. ran my point ool my other thread about how it could work and stay reasonably piced

[grabula]

Cost isn't unreasonable, you would obviously have to paceyourself on production but it's not as big an issue as you think.  Again just ake a look at companies who are doing it today,  even at startup.

[cavingjan]

You brought up Wyrd as a small company but when you look at their minis, they are mostly metal minis and not the plastic you are advocating. Only the box sets are plastic.

For sculpting, we are seeing some use of CAD done by IWM to mixed results. Some of the issues are definitely on the 3D printing side requiring a fair amount of work to remove the layer lines as found on some of the clan omni resculpts. It is a matter of finding the talent pool to do it. Cost appears to be about the same.

[mike19k]

I see lots of people on the web saying that you have to go plastic, as it is the way of the future as it is so much better than everything else. I can not talk about the 3D printing but as the Plastic vs. Metal if I have the option I will take metal over the plastic myself.

[cavingjan]

plastic is for high volume production only. Something that we lack on a lot of minis here. Not to mention IWM either needing to move to another facility or getting ride of metal spinning equipment to purchase and install new plastic molding machines. Don't get me wrong, it can be done but all of the current molds are useless for plastic and I'm not sure how many SKUs actually get the volume that making the switch would be cost effective.

Also don't discount the volume of work that IWM does for another game companies.

[grabula]

Wyrd is a good example because they are fairly new and moving to plastic from metal and showing plastic digitally designed kits are superior... as a newer company.
Higher volume comes from the serious interest in generating that volume through sales.   Check out my format in the other thread on how that can be done,.  Unfortunately I think we are  stuck at the moment with a company that isn't motivated to take those chances.  Otherwise we would see more serious pogress on the miniatures side.

Mike19k-some people do prefer metal but the evidence is out there that plastic minis are favored by majority for both production and purchase.   Plastic kits not only allow you to follow the business play I talk about in the other thread they allow for the easier creation of modification by both manufacturer and customer.   I get you could provide a mech with several options in a passable paint job for around 15$ us.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

grabula, interesting points, but I think you are wrong, especially with your generalization that everything will be better by moving to CAD and plastic.

Collectible pre-painted CAD designed plastics #P Dang, I am a painter. The few times I tried to paint one of those still give me nightmares ...

Besides some minis just look better sculpted by hand with some life and a 'soul'.

[cavingjan]

It is one thing to expand into plastic when you are expanding your business. It is another thing toreplace perfectly servicable machinery with something that also requires a lot of capital invested in new molds. You have to remember that you need to cover the cost for your molds. If you spend $50K on a new set of molds and your minis are selling for $15, you need to sell over 3000 minis just to cover the cost of the molds and does not include operating expenses, salaries, materials, and distribution. $50K for plastic molds are extremely cheap with them costing closer to 1.5 to 2 times that.

The fact that the cutoff for minis to go into the archives is in the single digits should give us an inication of the scale of distribution volume.

[grabula]

Gunji, I'm having this conversation over two threads but I've already discussed the pre-painted "issue" that I consider a non issue.  I'm a hobbyist as well as a game player.  Pre-painted miniatures are for the painter, just pre-primed and should be no issue for a hobbyist.  It grabs two sides of the coin, those players who don't want or can't paint, and those who can and will alter them as they see fit.  there's no disadvantage to properly done pre-painted minis.  Mechs are simple miniatures.  Generally speaking, a single color with a highlight and they look fine.  take a look at the Xwing models for that game to see how pre-paints for simple paint jobs can look fine.  I have my doubts about your claim on painting pre-painted cad designed miniatures.  please provide specific examples.

You say I'm wrong in my generalization but you don't get into specifics and don't describe what it is I'm wrong about.  That's poor basis for discussion and I'm unable to respond properly to it because of that.  I've stated pretty thoroughly on both threads the advantages and the proof lies just a google away...

The claim that hand sculpted minis have more "life" is purely subjective and I believe, inaccurate.  Hand sculpting leads to inaccuracies in scale, inconsistencies in quality (I'd use Privateer Press as an example of this).  For machines like mechs, digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate.  I have 10 minis from Wyrd sitting on my table that prove otherwise.

Cavingjan, we don't necessarily disagree on your points.  I'm only indicating that an unwillingness to move to better way of design and production is holding the product line back.  Please read my explanation in this thread: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,32952.0.html

I'm not expressing an opinion on how the game can improve in quality and expand it's customer base, I'm providing an example that's been repeated multiple times in the last few years to do exactly those things by others.

Ironwinds approach to the BT line has always felt dated to me and it's unfortunate.  I strongly believe that some company could breath a lot of new life into the game by making the right moves, however no one seems too interested in putting that sort of effort into it.  Believe me, if I had the capital available, I would certainly make the attempt.

[worktroll]

Can you consider that your advice is easier for a startup to implement, than an existing company?

IWM has, through its RP antecedents, invested over 30 years in building expertise with spin-cast metal minis. They have a small but talented team of casters & mould-makers, and a stable of known and reliable sculptors. They're a small company with hopefully decent, but likely unimpressive, profit margins. They do a lot of metal casting (BT is a small fraction of their business). The costs for them to shift over to 3D mastering include
- finding a new stable of CAD sculptors capable of reliably producing high-quality work for comparative fees
- Identifying a reliable and economic source of printed masters, with non-prohibitive cleanup costs
- Working up new masters for their existing high-turnover lines (it's not economic to convert the archived models, is it?)
- Working staff into handling the new steps in the design/mastering processes
- handling the sales & promotion of the new minis without destroying sales in the meantime

And that's without changing from spin-cast metal to anything else. It's a significant economic cost. The startups you refer to, by the way,
- have a good CAD sculptor (usually) already, they wouldn't be starting up otherwise
- have the same issues with mastering
- don't have existing lines & investments to protect
- don't have to retrain staff, can just hire them with the right skills if they choose
- don't have an existing cashflow to worry about.

It's like the old joke - how could Ghu create the world in only seven days? Answer: he didn't have to worry about an installed user base.

In time, I would expect IWM to adapt, or face issues. But I can't see how they can manage to have the same maneuverability as a startup. We chose to go plastic-injection for Leviathans, and had CAD masters designed from Doug Chaffee's art. Oh, and we were very lucky to get some time from a quality CAD artist to make that happen; they aren't common, don't come cheap, and we had to get a share of his time. In our (very different from IWM) position, it made sense to do so. OTOH, we're unlikely to consider moving to direct printing leviathans for quite some time; it's just not economical at the moment.

If you'll bear another metaphor, in the late 1940s people were declaring that air travel would defeat ocean travel. And it did ... in the late 60s. If you already owned a fleet of liners, there were obstacles to turning into an airline overnight.  So most existing companies didn't do it overnight. New companies invested in planes.

The change you see will come. But there's no need to put down those who aren't in a position to make a headlong leap into the future today. All you need to do is wait. Alternatively, if I ever do win the lottery, I've already thought about dropping the IWM management a line and making them an offer they can't refuse ;)

W.

[StCptMara]

It is one thing to expand into plastic when you are expanding your business. It is another thing toreplace perfectly servicable machinery with something that also requires a lot of capital invested in new molds. You have to remember that you need to cover the cost for your molds. If you spend $50K on a new set of molds and your minis are selling for $15, you need to sell over 3000 minis just to cover the cost of the molds and does not include operating expenses, salaries, materials, and distribution. $50K for plastic molds are extremely cheap with them costing closer to 1.5 to 2 times that.

I know that when Mantic switched from metal to their current Resin-Plastic line, one of the things that they supposedly did
is NOT switch molds. They apparently have a brand and blend of resin-plastic that can be spin cast, just like the Reaper
Bones(though, apparently, Reaper's Bones line DOES need new molds made, but..they are still spin-cast). I have wondered
if IWM can experiment with that sort of switch, and what the downsides to switching to a new substance that can use
the same molds as they use for the metal?

[worktroll]

As I understand it, molten metal flows pretty easily, once the moulds are heated up. Spinning drives the metal into all the nooks and crannies of the mould, and any air bubbles "rise" to the centre of the mould disk. Resin is much thicker - this means it's harder to drive it into all the nooks and crannies, and harder to get any air bubbles out.

Early GW Finecast minis - made with a resin/plastic/thingie in the original metal moulds - had a lot of problems early on with these things. And if you've ever bought a garage kit of some sci-fi spaceship or airplane model, you'll know the amount of sanding & filling required.

All problems are solvable, given handfuls of money to throw at them. GW appear to have gotten their Finecast issues under control. Reaper is experimenting with its Bones material, which appears to produce results equivalent to the 1990s BT blue resin minis. Maybe IWM is experimenting and hasn't shown the results yet. Time will tell.

[Sigma]

A reminder that Ral Partha did experiment successfully with that in the past. Remember the Blue mechs? And remember the Gray in the old Fantasy lines? And that was with resin tech of 18+ years ago. There's way better engineered low viscosity resin materials now. Finecast had no excuse other than terrible QC on their part.

But really this is all beside the point. It's a totally separate issue from 3D masters as WT mentioned.

[grabula]

I'm not really debating the challenges of changing technologies whether you're a startup or not.  I don't believe that starting up versus retooling is as difficult as it can be made to sound.  In both cases the company has to find the right sculptors to do the kind of work they need done.  To go to plastics they need to both acquire the right machines to do this.  The argument can also be made to show that it's possibly harder for a startup since they have to present a business plan just to get the money to startup, whereas a company that has been going strong for a while has a leg up on any loans they may need to take out in order to retool and shift.

I think switching to resin is a mistake.  It's an expensive material that can't be re-used like metal and some plastics and has some serious challenges for quality.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take it for what it is in any form but, the last few years has shown us that there are a lot of options out there that have come into reach and I can only hope that IW and Catalyst really try to apply new technologies and ways of marketing games.  I really wholeheartedly believe BT could do well under a similar situation as XWing from Fantasy Flight.

Worktroll, you said "In time, I would expect IWM to adapt, or face issues."  I believe this is already the case.  While BT maintains a steady fan following, I don't see it gaining any ground, and I really think it's probably starting to see some slow losses.  It's a clunky system and the mech designs don't grab the imagination of todays gamers.  I was looking through TRO 3060 and its still shocking that mech and vehicle design mostly still looks like something straight out of a TRO from the 80's.  It's got better recently which is good to see but along with Alpha Strike, BT needs a to basically be rebranded to make it more relevant for todays gamer or its just going to continue to slowly die.

[Fullback]

As far as i know FFG doesn´t produce X-wing miniatures.
All those are produced and painted in china.

Like Palladium and Ninja Division let their new miniature line also be produced in china.


Biseds GW i don´t now any miniature game company that produce plastics on their own.
Or have the money or experience to do so.

An for BT-I think it is very unlikly to ever happen with their hundreds of different miniature.

[grabula]

Correct, most of those minis are produced in asia.  It means the owning company doesn't have to pony up for the machinery to make them, only work out a contract to have them produced.

As for the number of units, well, MWDA managed to do it, with much larger minis.  While the quality sucked and I think the plastic is wrong, it's an example of what can be done given enough time.  I'm not saying they should reproduce their entire line in plastic immediately.  You start with the starter kits like I laid out and move from there.  Over the next ten years you replace ok metal, hand sculpted mechs with fantastic digitally sculpted plastics.

You could even start out producing some digital sculpts in metal to save on costs initially but the plastic prepaints, regardless of what some might think, would bring in some money.

[mike19k]

Correct, most of those minis are produced in asia.  It means the owning company doesn't have to pony up for the machinery to make them, only work out a contract to have them produced.

As for the number of units, well, MWDA managed to do it, with much larger minis.  While the quality sucked and I think the plastic is wrong, it's an example of what can be done given enough time.  I'm not saying they should reproduce their entire line in plastic immediately.  You start with the starter kits like I laid out and move from there.  Over the next ten years you replace OK metal, hand sculpted mechs with fantastic digitally sculpted plastics.

You could even start out producing some digital sculpts in metal to save on costs initially but the plastic prepaints, regardless of what some might think, would bring in some money.

So if I am understanding you, you are saying that IWM should contract out the making of the minis to China? So a company that there business is to make minis should have them made in China? I think one of the issues may be that IWM is not as I understand it part of BT proper. They do make the minis for it, but do not work for them. Also BT is not really a mini game as you can us anything you want to play, you just need the rules. Now Alpha Strike may change some of this, as I have not read the rules, and only play a couple of times. You also said "While BT maintains a steady fan following, I don't see it gaining any ground, and I really think it's probably starting to see some slow losses." Where do you get that from? The group that I play with has grown to over time to now it is almost to big to play and most of them are younger players who did not grow up on the game. I am not saying it is not true as I can not back up what I see and think with any thing but it is what I see and think, having said that I see the game slowly growing, and most of the people that I talk to like the metal better than plastic. I have found that the plastic breaks more than the metal, the weight is also an issue as they are to light, but like I said that may just be me and the people that I talk with.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

grabula, did you know that IWM is one of biggest US companies doing metal casts for others? IWM has cast metal miniatures for the likes of Privateer Press and Wyrd among others. That's their business, that's what they do.

If you are talking about Wyrd moving to plastics (outsourcing not to a metal caster, but to a plastic caster) the analogy would be CGL not licensing miniatures to IWM, but keeping the license, outsourcing their own production of miniatures, not to IWM, but to a plastic company. Effectively turning CGL into a "miniatures company".

Asking IWM to retool and produce plastic instead of metal would be like asking your fruit shop to start selling meat instead of fruit.

Maybe IWM has to look into other production methods, maybe not. I don't think plastic is the future, at least not the only one and most definitely not for high quality "painter" miniatures. Just as I don't think CAD is the exclusive and automatically perfect future.

Gunji, I'm having this conversation over two threads but I've already discussed the pre-painted "issue" that I consider a non issue.  I'm a hobbyist as well as a game player.  Pre-painted miniatures are for the painter, just pre-primed and should be no issue for a hobbyist.  It grabs two sides of the coin, those players who don't want or can't paint, and those who can and will alter them as they see fit.  there's no disadvantage to properly done pre-painted minis.  Mechs are simple miniatures.  Generally speaking, a single color with a highlight and they look fine.  take a look at the Xwing models for that game to see how pre-paints for simple paint jobs can look fine.  I have my doubts about your claim on painting pre-painted cad designed miniatures.  please provide specific examples.

Ok, bear in mind that I am 'only' a painter and I am not here because of the tabletop game. Miniatures I paint usually end up in my display cabinet. Some ended up as competition entries and even winning a medal or two.
I have yet to see a line of pre-painted miniatures that would be fun to paint and worth the hassle. The quality of the plastic is bad with warped and malformed parts, the "paint" is thick and blobs details. The "acts as primer" argument doesn't count. Not only is the paint often too thick, I also want to chose the color of the primer myself since it influences the end result. And I don't want to strip the miniature before I can start prep work. I have tried Click-Minis (of various lines), Dust (who claim to be high quality for the painter as well as for the gamer) and the old Rackham lines. In each case I opened the blister, saw the miniature, put it back and buried it in the deepest pits of my storage locker... Honestly, I enjoy painting miniatures way too much, spend way too much time on each miniature and don't have anywhere near enough time to paint to bother with this "quality".

Take away the pre-painted aspect and the quality of the plastic miniature gets better, but in my opinion even very high quality plastics most of the time lack the sharpness of detail metal miniatures have. Resin is something I could get behind, but not plastic. And yes, I have seen (and own) a fair amount of plastic minis.

The plastic miniatures you mention are often "troop" miniatures. In my opinion Mechs are "hero" miniatures. Miniatures which are usually done in a high(er than plastic) quality material like metal or resin (resin can hold much sharper details than plastic).

You say I'm wrong in my generalization but you don't get into specifics and don't describe what it is I'm wrong about.  That's poor basis for discussion and I'm unable to respond properly to it because of that.  I've stated pretty thoroughly on both threads the advantages and the proof lies just a google away...

The claim that hand sculpted minis have more "life" is purely subjective and I believe, inaccurate.  Hand sculpting leads to inaccuracies in scale, inconsistencies in quality (I'd use Privateer Press as an example of this).  For machines like mechs, digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate.  I have 10 minis from Wyrd sitting on my table that prove otherwise.

Sorry, but difficult to write a "wall of text" on a mobile ;)
Your claim CAD is superior is equally subjective.
I look at the digital Wyrd miniatures, I look at Raging Heroes, I look at Kingdom Death, I look at Reaper's CAV line, ... and while there are some nice, very nice even, miniatures, most of them don't appeal to me. I find them sterile, too "perfect" and lifeless.
Speaking of Reaper's CAV line, I never understood why people regard them so highly and point to this particular line to show the superiority of CAD designed metal cast miniatures. The line has a mere 90 miniatures. It wouldn't be difficult to find 90 BattleTech sculpts that are better. The CAV Mechs are more consistent in scale, I give them that, but otherwise they are just stiff, chunky and lifeless metal hulks with an ok level of detail at best. Give me hand sculpted BattleTech minis with their flaws any day.

Sure, BattleTech minis could be better. Some could scale better, some could have a few less mistakes, some could have more details, some simply could be better all around. But recent batches of miniatures were a huge step forward in my opinion and show what can be done.

I am not against CAD per se. As I stated earlier in the thread:

I think the current sculptors IWM works with have a great range of skills. You have Psycho whose precision and attention to detail easily matches any 3D print, Behrle who can give minis a unique personality (just look at the Primitive Banshee), Dave and his knack for dramatic poses, ... now add one or two talented 3D modelers to the mix and I feel you have a very attractive pool of talent to draw upon.

Neither is IWM against CAD to produce master sculpts, they are experimenting with it and have done so in the past. I do think it was the right choice for the WoB stuff. Here clean, sterile and ... digital ... is perfect.

But also keep in mind the artwork:

For mechanical things like Mechs or tanks this works better, but most definitely isn't the only way to go. And it doesn't automatically make for a good mini as many examples illustrate. Bad artwork or not enough artwork puts the 3D modeler in the same boat as the traditional sculptor. The artist has to interpret and maybe even alter some details and or proportions to translate 2D into 3D.

And ... some miniatures just look better sculpted by hand, no way around this ;)

I recently talked about the CAD topic to a friend and we noted that CAD is becoming more and more common, not just in miniatures. But does it automatically without a doubt and 100% make everything better? No, it doesn't.
Just take a look at cartoons. So much CAD these days. the same animations from character to character, just a different skin. #P And here is proof it doesn't work: my son's favorite cartoon is Fireman Sam. He knows the new CGI episode from TV, but thanks to the power of YouTube we found older non-CGI epsiodes. Now, almost every time a CGI episode is shown on TV he asks if he can instead watch an old episode on the PC.

So, you think CAD designed plastics are superior, I think CAD designed masters for metal or resin casting have potential, supplementing well done hand sculpted miniatures. You like what pre-painted offers to the gamer, I dislike what it mean for the painter. You are a gamer, I am a painter (generally speaking). Guess we are just different target audiences with different (subjective?) opinions ... ;)

[grabula]

mike19k, I'm not saying they should do anything but consider every option.  As for preferences, it's subjective.  I prefer plastic because I find they don't break more - in my experience multipart metal minis break more often then fully bonded plastic minis, but again, that's my experience.  I also like modeling plastic since it's easier to work with.  I could do easier conversion work on plastic then metal.


I'm not completely tied to plastic, I just think it's a good idea to move to for various practical reasons.


Gunji 

"Asking IWM to retool and produce plastic instead of metal would be like asking your fruit shop to start selling meat instead of fruit."

 
That's be-labored and really not apropos.  I'm not asking that IW sell completely different product, I'm hoping they look into the better alternatives that are out there.

I don't think plastic is the future, at least not the only one and most definitely not for high quality "painter" miniatures. Just as I don't think CAD is the exclusive and automatically perfect future.

I'm going to sound like a jerk in this post but I'm trying to avoid the more emotional gut reactions and keep this discussion on an even keel.  I won't address plastic as the future anymore.  If you guys can't see it in the lines coming out these days, and the advantages that plastic provides to manufacturer, company, and hobbyist then it's not a good idea to continue belaboring the point.  As an avid hobbyist myself, I am confident saying plastic gives a much more superior material for just about any aspect of the hobby.  as for "exclusive" and "automatically perfect", those are words you inserted into the conversation.  if you like we can debate the differences but ultimately it feels as if you guys are stuck in the pro-metal/anti-plastic side, and I'm not getting the impression that conversation would go anywhere.  As I have stated a couple of times, I'm not completely tied to plastics, since this was more about digital sculpting, which in this case would definitely produce a higher quality product.  even the guys who don't understand you can do really good organic figures in digital often say it's superior for mechanical models....

Anyway, I'm done with the material issue.

I look at the digital Wyrd miniatures, I look at Raging Heroes, I look at Kingdom Death, I look at Reaper's CAV line, ... and while there are some nice, very nice even, miniatures, most of them don't appeal to me. I find them sterile, too "perfect" and lifeless.
Speaking of Reaper's CAV line, I never understood why people regard them so highly and point to this particular line to show the superiority of CAD designed metal cast miniatures. The line has a mere 90 miniatures. It wouldn't be difficult to find 90 BattleTech sculpts that are better. The CAV Mechs are more consistent in scale, I give them that, but otherwise they are just stiff, chunky and lifeless metal hulks with an ok level of detail at best. Give me hand sculpted BattleTech minis with their flaws any day

I can't buy into the idea that cad drawn miniatures are lifeless.  So these lack life:

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-9.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-14.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-13.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-12.jpg

http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/ten-thunders/malifaux-11.jpg

They're some of the most dynamic miniatures in the hobby right now.  "Life" is instilled by the artist, not the medium, this is a basic artistic concept.  Having done both, I can tell you there's no fundamental difference between the way both process work.  Digital has the advantage of being more accurate and providing more detail.  In fact, one of the more common complaints right now in the industry by the artist and companies is that you can do too much detail, that get's lost once it's been reduced to the proper size, etc.

By the way, those kits fit together wonderfully and would be super easy to modify should you so choose.

As for CAV, those models were ok.  They were all done by John Bear Ross who's work, while decent, isn't my taste.  I only really liked a couple of CAV minis, but they were much more crisp sculpts, more machine like with straight solid panel lines etc.

The lines on this machine: http://ironwindmetals.com/store/popup_image.php?pID=8881&type=jpg are "wobbly", not completely even or straight.  I don't see more "life" I see a miniature sculpted in a soft material trying to represent a machine made of hard, heavy materials.

This machine:  http://www.miniature-giant.com/emperor-cav-oop-Reaper-Combat-Assault-Vehicle-CAV-sku-7108-pr-4444.html  looks like a machine, created and built like a machine is supposed to be.  Whether you like the overall aesthetic, you cannot deny it looks more like a machine then the first example, yes?

The panel line thing the mech sculptors and artist stick with is dated - just look at the MWO mechs done digitally, those look fantastic and are what mechs should look more like these days.  This should be the future of BT:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MechWarrior-Online-Atlas-Concept.jpg
and that can only be done well, digitally.


I think we can settle on cad designed metals but I think you guys should just take the time to consider the real advantages to doing something radical like pre-painted plastic lance kits for beginners.  I can't buy any hobbyist who says he can't deal with pre-painted minis.  If they're not in the toy style soft plastic, they're as easy to paint and easier to modify then any metal miniature ever will be.

Anyway, barring anything really coming to the table other than the stuff we've been rehashing the last few days I'm going to drop out of the conversation.  I hope IW doesn't let the line stagnate by continuing with the status quo when they could do better but I have no control over it.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Well, it is not as if you are constantly bringing up new points ... also it wasn't me who started with the "strong words", I merely continued along the lines you established.

... 3D sculpting is hands down better and faster ... I know for a fact BT mechs would get 1000 time better as models ... showing plastic digitally designed kits are superior ... digital sculpting is perfect, for organic models, the claim it doesn't work is wholly inaccurate ...  unwillingness to move to better way of design and production is holding the product line back ... fantastic digitally sculpted plastics ...

... since this was more about digital sculpting, which in this case would definitely produce a higher quality product.  even the guys who don't understand you can do really good organic figures in digital often say it's superior for mechanical models....

And here I disagree. Sure, it can produce a better product. But definitely?

I can't buy into the idea that cad drawn miniatures are lifeless.  So these lack life:
...
They're some of the most dynamic miniatures in the hobby right now.  "Life" is instilled by the artist, not the medium, this is a basic artistic concept.

Ah, but as miniature painters we are not talking about a blank canvas. Sure, a good artist can make any sculpt come alive. But with miniatures the canvas usually provides inspiration to the artist. If the canvas (the miniature) doesn't inspire me, why should I feel the urge to paint it?
Your examples have some "life" because they are painted. The product presentation showing a 3D render is lifeless, sterile, everything but inspiring (see the CAV mini you linked to). A picture of the inked miniature on the IWM website is can be more inspiring.

And they could as easily be modified if they were resin or metal. Personal preference of material.

The panel line thing the mech sculptors and artist stick with is dated - just look at the MWO mechs done digitally, those look fantastic and are what mechs should look more like these days.  This should be the future of BT:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MechWarrior-Online-Atlas-Concept.jpg
and that can only be done well, digitally.

Yes, MWO has some cool re-imaginations of classic Mechs (they all look kinda the same though, sharing many design elements and the novelty factor is starting to wear off ...). But could only CAD turn them into good 3D miniatures? All it would take to prove that notion wrong is, say, Psycho to sculpt one.

I never said I am completely against CAD and think it has a lot of potential (as repeatedly stated above). But I don't buy into CAD being the best thing to ever happen to miniatures you sell it as.

[worktroll]

Okay, everyone, it's getting a bit heated here. I strongly recommend pausing for a few deep breaths.

At the end of the day, all we have are opinions. We're all entitled to have our own opinions, but we have to recognise others have just as much right to their own. I suggest we watch developments and let the people who actually run mini-making businesses make their decisions, and let the market decide.

W.

[grabula]

worktroll, I don't feel it's getting heated, at least not for my part.  I did say I might start sounding like a jerk but only because I insist on better arguments than are often acceptable for the internet.
However, just sitting aside and letting things happen is why I believe BT isn't a more popular game.  The status quo has been so 'acceptable' for so long that it hasn't changed much.  Voicing our opinions on the matter in forums like these is part of how the market decides what it wants.

But could only CAD turn them into good 3D miniatures? All it would take to prove that notion wrong is, say, Psycho to sculpt one.

I have to assume Psycho is one of the IW sculptors?  I can guarantee they'd be done better digitally for the reasons I pointed out the current line of mechs don't hold up well to close analysis.  I'm a scratchbuilder myself.  I say scratchbuilder and not sculptor because my organic work is not good but my mechanical work is spot on and I've done some stuff in the past for smaller minis companies.  I work in plastics and metals and a little putty here and there to put my stuff together and I can't do what a digital sculptor can do.  It's something that was hard for me to face since I enjoy it so much but ultimately it's why I embraced learning to do digital work.  It's just a new medium for artist and it's hard for some people to accept that.

The one thing I can honestly say about building something using raw material and building it digitally is even at my low level of skill digitally speaking, it's easier to do mechanical subjects.  As usual I've found more organic subject matter to be more difficult.

[grabula]

From what I understand, some mechs have been done digitally, anyone which ones have for sure?  I thought the two special clan mechs in the anniversary box were?

[cavingjan]

The first attempts at the recent LAMs were done digitally. They never got released and had to be started over. I believe the entire resculpted 3050 clan omni series was done in CAD. The two plastic omnis from the box set were created from the metal minis.

[Psycho]

From what I understand, some mechs have been done digitally, anyone which ones have for sure?  I thought the two special clan mechs in the anniversary box were?

Out of curiosity, what are you ten favourite BT minis you've worked with? Top ten BT minis overall?