Author Topic: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker  (Read 58797 times)

master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #30 on: 01 February 2013, 09:56:04 »
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The NARC on that Stalker isn't a spotting tool, it's a deterrent. If enemies close within 9 hexes, they know there's going to be homing pods flying at them. And if even a single one hits, then they'll be a magnet for every missile on the board. Not just the Stalker's, but every missile rack. In a Marik force. I'd call that a very strong incentive to stay out of close range with a Marik Stalker, and if said Stalker never gets a chance to actually fire a beacon, then the NARC launcher has done its job perfectly.

For the same five tons, Weirdo, you could add Artemis IV to all four missile launchers and CASE to both torsos, making your missiles more accurate every single time you hit with them AND improving survivability.  Or add CASE to both torsos and increase the LRM ammo while havng two ton left over (if you still wanted NARC warheads) and rely on a light, fast spotter to plant the homing beacon.  To my mind, IS NARC is NOTHING but a waste of tonnage on a 3/5 assault 'Mech that has a sizeable LRM capacity. 

MA

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #31 on: 01 February 2013, 10:05:33 »
...making your missiles more accurate every single time you hit with them...

Only with direct fire, and only with your own missiles. People keep cherry-picking my posts and ignoring the big picture, so after this, I'm leaving this thread. Before I go, I'll say this one last time: If you get close enough to get NARCed by a Stalker-5M, you're not going to be hit by the Stalker's missiles. You going to be hit by the ENTIRE FORCE. No terrain can protect you, and with the advent of ARAD missiles, even friendly ECM is no shield. You got too close to that Stalker, and now you cannot hide, ever. You have only two options: Run outside LRM range, or die. Either way, your unit is no longer a viable part of the battle.
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master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #32 on: 01 February 2013, 10:15:57 »
Only with direct fire, and only with your own missiles. People keep cherry-picking my posts and ignoring the big picture, so after this, I'm leaving this thread. Before I go, I'll say this one last time: If you get close enough to get NARCed by a Stalker-5M, you're not going to be hit by the Stalker's missiles. You going to be hit by the ENTIRE FORCE. No terrain can protect you, and with the advent of ARAD missiles, even friendly ECM is no shield. You got too close to that Stalker, and now you cannot hide, ever. You have only two options: Run outside LRM range, or die. Either way, your unit is no longer a viable part of the battle.

That is true if your opponent is a smart player REGARDLESS of whether or not you have a NARC.  We learned real early (try the '80s) that concentration of fire was GOD in BattleTech at my gaming Club.  Pick a target and make it go away.  None of these individual chivalrous one-on-one fighting, we would aim entire companies at one 'Mech and trash it, then move on to the next.

You don't need a NARC to do that, and I'd rather have more armor, more heat sinks, or more weapons than the Inner Sphere's plain-jane vanilla NARC launcher, but maybe that is just me.

MA

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #33 on: 01 February 2013, 10:29:07 »
That is true if your opponent is a smart player REGARDLESS of whether or not you have a NARC.  We learned real early (try the '80s) that concentration of fire was GOD in BattleTech at my gaming Club.  Pick a target and make it go away.  None of these individual chivalrous one-on-one fighting, we would aim entire companies at one 'Mech and trash it, then move on to the next.

You don't need a NARC to do that, and I'd rather have more armor, more heat sinks, or more weapons than the Inner Sphere's plain-jane vanilla NARC launcher, but maybe that is just me.

MA

While I don't care for it on my assault mechs, NARC is effectively adding Artemis IV to ALL the LRM/SRM mechs you have.  In large militaries that can't afford to individually upgrade each and every mech, but can afford a few specialists, its a wonderful piece of kit.  Aye, the missiles cost money, but so do Artemis IV missiles, refits, etc.  NARC's poor reputation is more a result of inferior NARC platforms, rather than the system itself IMO.

martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #34 on: 01 February 2013, 10:37:54 »
Captain Tiberius Sartini (TRO 3025)
...
Only one that immediately comes to mind.

MA
Thanks, I know about him. I meant someone extraordinary from some forgotten sourcebook.

Missed that one.  Fixed.
MA
Nice.

A custom variant is one used by Sho-sho Jagawen Torisobo of the 8th Sword of Light. ...  Armor remains the same as the original STK-3F.
Oh, and STK-3F Stalker Jagawen had different armor than standard STK-3F Stalker. You may check the record sheet for it again.

master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #35 on: 01 February 2013, 10:39:45 »
While I don't care for it on my assault mechs, NARC is effectively adding Artemis IV to ALL the LRM/SRM mechs you have.  In large militaries that can't afford to individually upgrade each and every mech, but can afford a few specialists, its a wonderful piece of kit.  Aye, the missiles cost money, but so do Artemis IV missiles, refits, etc.  NARC's poor reputation is more a result of inferior NARC platforms, rather than the system itself IMO.

True, Ian.  WHEN I use NARC, I prefer it to be on a fast, mobile spotter that can get in and tag those targets for fire from everyone else.  It isn't completely useless, but putting it on a 3/5 assault with 12 salvos of ammo for their LRMs means that you are likely to have 3-4 salvoes left by the time the NARC comes into range.  And NO ONE really wants to get within 9 hexes of a Stalker anyway, not with two SRM-6s and four Medium Lasers and the heat sinks to use them.

MA

master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #36 on: 01 February 2013, 10:41:02 »
Thanks, I know about him. I meant someone extraordinary from some forgotten sourcebook.
Nice.
Oh, and STK-3F Stalker Jagawen had different armor than standard STK-3F Stalker. You may check the record sheet for it again.

I've never bought the Record sheets . . . was just going by Sarna, so if it is wrong, I apologize.

MA

Alex Keller

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #37 on: 01 February 2013, 10:52:17 »
I think any MOTW article should also include Quirks, when available.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #38 on: 01 February 2013, 10:57:12 »
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The NARC on that Stalker isn't a spotting tool, it's a deterrent. If enemies close within 9 hexes, they know there's going to be homing pods flying at them. And if even a single one hits, then they'll be a magnet for every missile on the board. Not just the Stalker's, but every missile rack. In a Marik force. I'd call that a very strong incentive to stay out of close range with a Marik Stalker, and if said Stalker never gets a chance to actually fire a beacon, then the NARC launcher has done its job perfectly.

So you're saying it's an area-denial tool like an AC-20?

I've never thought of it that way, but as you said, especially in a Marik force, that's kind of a genius idea. I'll have to give that further thought...
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martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #39 on: 01 February 2013, 10:57:57 »
I've never bought the Record sheets . . . was just going by Sarna, so if it is wrong, I apologize.

MA
It's okay. It has improved side torsos protection. That's really just a detail.
And by the way, Sarna says nothing about armor in entry for this Jagawen variant.

master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #40 on: 01 February 2013, 11:07:26 »
It's okay. It has improved side torsos protection. That's really just a detail.
And by the way, Sarna says nothing about armor in entry for this Jagawen variant.

True, but it only listed the differences, so I presumed all else was the same.

MA

martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #41 on: 01 February 2013, 11:13:10 »
Is it still true that missile ammunition (such as Narc-compliant LRMs or SRMs) costs twice the standard ammo?

I am asking because I'd suspect that as all good things (in Military and everywhere else) its use would be limited to higher echelon regiments only.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #42 on: 01 February 2013, 11:43:40 »
So, something I forgot to add initially, but that has always bugged me about the Stalker: the name.  You can't "stalk" anything with an 85 ton mech moving, at best, 54 kph.  Well, okay, maybe you could stalk an Annihilator, an Urbanmech, or an Omega, but surely there was a more fitting name for this beast.
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #43 on: 01 February 2013, 11:51:49 »
The NARC ammo is still pricey, but I see it more as a few tons go out, not every single missile being NARC missiles.  You load a ton or two per machine.  The NARC platforms will miss, targets won't be NARC'd when they first come into range, etc, so it makes sense to have some regular ammo in addition to NARC-rounds.  Don't want to fire off those expensive NARC missiles on a non NARC target after all.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #44 on: 01 February 2013, 11:57:21 »
So you're saying it's an area-denial tool like an AC-20?

I've never thought of it that way, but as you said, especially in a Marik force, that's kind of a genius idea. I'll have to give that further thought...

Agreed.  That's not an idea that occurred to me, either.
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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #45 on: 01 February 2013, 12:14:11 »
Only with direct fire, and only with your own missiles. People keep cherry-picking my posts and ignoring the big picture, so after this, I'm leaving this thread. Before I go, I'll say this one last time: If you get close enough to get NARCed by a Stalker-5M, you're not going to be hit by the Stalker's missiles. You going to be hit by the ENTIRE FORCE. No terrain can protect you, and with the advent of ARAD missiles, even friendly ECM is no shield. You got too close to that Stalker, and now you cannot hide, ever. You have only two options: Run outside LRM range, or die. Either way, your unit is no longer a viable part of the battle.

I can see the point here.  I can also say, who the heck is willingly closing with any Stalker anyway, but then if the Stalker is defending in favorable terrain, this isnt too hard to manage.  I think some are viewing the variant in a vacuum.  And a standard NARC launcher is a horrible thing on any 'Mech when viewed that way.  Anything with a NARC has to be viewed as assisting others.  The role of NARC on here is plain: it is a Stalker, it is going to going in up close.  This one should be teamed up with missile friends.  Do so, and the enemy really wants to not be hit with that. 

Try to see  the value of this versus 5 tons of equipment as part of a larger force.  NARC launcher on a tough frame of something plodding into close up combat most likely anyway, and has missiles to add to the party.

I certainly would not want it to the the primary NARC designator for a missile heavy force, but it makes a dandy supplement to help spread the NARC love.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #46 on: 01 February 2013, 12:43:46 »
Well, yeah, but you should never really have only one NARC unit anyway, since that's a single point of failure.
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martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #47 on: 01 February 2013, 13:15:01 »
The greatest problem with NARC is the lack of suitable spotters.

In 3050s it's RVN-3L/M Raven for Capelland and FWL (and later other realms), Kintaro for ComGuards. Raven is quite fragile and speed isn't especially high. But since there is no better 'Mech, everyone will use whether he wants it or not.

Since mid-3050s there are additional two spotters generally available: Owens and Strider. OW-1D has NARC launcher with six shots and I consider this amount quite insufficient. SR1-OA has two NARC launchers and twelve rounds for both weapons together, so it's again six shots per launcher. And movement 6/9 isn't great.
DCMS gets HM-2 Hitman, again with one ton of ammo.

Another problem is presence of ECM on the battlefield since 3050s. From lights such as Raven, FS9-S1 Firestarter, Hermes I, Javelin, Scarabus to Heavies. Often very fast and/or jump-capable. And since ECM doeesn't need LOS to function, such 'Mechs are not easy to deal with. They can either jam link between Narced target and LRM-armed 'Mechs or make it so unreliable that it can't be counted on it.

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #48 on: 01 February 2013, 13:18:17 »
I would close with a Stalker. But then again, my GM has Hellbie's luck with dice at times, I'm a borderline lunatic, and I tend to use TSM melee monsters. Some with Stealth.

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #49 on: 01 February 2013, 13:19:00 »
Arminas, an excellent article. I've always enjoyed the Stalker and you did a good job by it.

I do need to point out that the STK-3Fk is not a canon design and remind everyone that Sarna is not the best place to get canon data. As an open Wiki, anyone can edit it and this leads to things being added that do not appear in the game.

The Master Unit List is the official source of all canon units and the best place to check if something is real. The Record Sheets are the best way to double check the stats. Even SSW and MegaMek are not canon sources, though both do try and make it clear the difference between canon units and non-canon units.

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master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #50 on: 01 February 2013, 13:27:23 »
Arminas, an excellent article. I've always enjoyed the Stalker and you did a good job by it.

I do need to point out that the STK-3Fk is not a canon design and remind everyone that Sarna is not the best place to get canon data. As an open Wiki, anyone can edit it and this leads to things being added that do not appear in the game.

The Master Unit List is the official source of all canon units and the best place to check if something is real. The Record Sheets are the best way to double check the stats. Even SSW and MegaMek are not canon sources, though both do try and make it clear the difference between canon units and non-canon units.

Fixed.  I wasn't sure; I know that I have never seen it, but then, there are plenty of canon 'Mechs I have never seen.

MA

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #51 on: 01 February 2013, 13:49:51 »
Fixed.  I wasn't sure; I know that I have never seen it, but then, there are plenty of canon 'Mechs I have never seen.

MA

If it's on the MUL, it's canon. If it's not and you have a specific canon reference, hit the errata thread. If it's not and you don't have a specific canon reference, it's not.

And the MUL errata will be responded to. There are some units out there that are not real, even though referred to. The famous MG Urbie is one. It was a writing mistake and not a real variant.
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martian

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #52 on: 01 February 2013, 13:53:07 »
If it's on the MUL, it's canon. If it's not and you have a specific canon reference, hit the errata thread. If it's not and you don't have a specific canon reference, it's not.

I'd like to ask about 'Mechs from Era Report: 2750, such as WHM-6Rk, TDR-5Sd etc. What's their status? Are they canon?

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #53 on: 01 February 2013, 13:57:44 »
If it's on the MUL, it's canon. If it's not and you have a specific canon reference, hit the errata thread. If it's not and you don't have a specific canon reference, it's not.

And the MUL errata will be responded to. There are some units out there that are not real, even though referred to. The famous MG Urbie is one. It was a writing mistake and not a real variant.

Question, Era Report: 2750 is not valid source?  Thats where the STK-3Fk Stalker came from. Page 129,  Fourth Sword of Light. 
« Last Edit: 01 February 2013, 13:59:32 by Wrangler »
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Welshman

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #54 on: 01 February 2013, 14:00:03 »
I'd like to ask about 'Mechs from Era Report: 2750, such as WHM-6Rk, TDR-5Sd etc. What's their status? Are they canon?


Yes, they are canon.

Question, Era Report: 2750 is not valid source?  Thats where the STK-3Fk Stalker came from. Page 129,  Fouth Sword of Light. 

See, this is how things get better. If someone can post that in the MUL errata thread, we can get it fixed. That's a source we can use.

Thanks
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master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #55 on: 01 February 2013, 14:15:36 »

Yes, they are canon.

See, this is how things get better. If someone can post that in the MUL errata thread, we can get it fixed. That's a source we can use.

Thanks

Okay, added the STK-3Fk back in!   ;D  'Round and 'round we go, where we stop, no body knows!

MA

master arminas

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #56 on: 01 February 2013, 14:19:11 »

Yes, they are canon.

See, this is how things get better. If someone can post that in the MUL errata thread, we can get it fixed. That's a source we can use.

Thanks

Is there and link to the MUL and an instruction page?  I got there once and couldn't make heads nor tails of it.

MA

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #57 on: 01 February 2013, 14:42:54 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/

It's also on the home page of this site.
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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #58 on: 01 February 2013, 15:21:07 »
Looks like Era Reports: 2750 hasn't been added to MUL as a source. 

If Sarna.net is used a reference, there citations next to them.  If there a doubt, the citation should include a source and page where it came from.  Site maybe fan supported, but its pretty good, only some times it has there problems.
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Mech of the Week: STK-series Stalker
« Reply #59 on: 01 February 2013, 15:33:47 »
The point of the NARC isn't to land extra missiles from the Stalker. It's to keep people away from the Stalker, lest every single one of the Stalker's buddies land missiles on it. Would you consider 5 tons a good deal if it meant nobody came close to you, lest they face the wrath of an entire company, or more?

No.

Because it requires me to carry five tons of dead weight for a threat I may never use.  Plus the extra expense of NARC homing missiles that might never have a beacon to deploy.  AND the bubble is nine hexes on something that isn't closing fast.

If we are talking company combat, the NARC goes on a fast light or medium that can close quickly, generate high TMM and actually let me use the NARC I'm paying the mass for.  NARC is not a dueling weapon, it is a team weapon.  As such it should never be mounting on big slow missile boats, you put it on a scout/spotter and let the rest of the company carry the missile launchers.

In that case, letting something small, and to be frank you are willing to sacrifice mount the NARC and place the beacons is a more logical decision than stuffing it into the slow ass assault boat.  THAT you load up for maximum pain, both firepower and protection to extend the pain.

That five tons is a second ER Large Laser, 50% more LRM tubes and CASE, AMS, CASE, and more armor, or plenty of other things that are direct combat enhancements when mounted on the mech.  As you point out you do not have to mount a NARC on a unit to take advantage of it.  Putting it where it would be most effective is more threatening than putting it on a big slow unit that realistically will seldom get to employ it.

The AC/20 gets a bubble of doom because of the potential to covert a pristine section to breached, or destroyed, in a single hit.  The SRM Carrier gets the same effect by toting enough short range firepower to shred a light mech in one salvo.  Notice the instantly lethal potential and lack of a defense other than not being hit?

The NARC fails both, you effecively have a one turn delay, the bonus does not kick in till the turn after the NARC beacon lands.  And if you have an ECM suite on the target?  Not doing you much good while that is running.  The bonus also only increases the damage, it does not boost chances to hit.  So an already illusive target might risk it.  There are simply too many 'ifs' for the NARC to be a 'bubble threat' weapon.
« Last Edit: 01 February 2013, 15:56:09 by Nikas_Zekeval »