Author Topic: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?  (Read 45535 times)

Sid

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #90 on: 23 August 2011, 13:23:54 »
Though this is true, time has shown that Stackpole was not, and since he is still a semi-active writer continues not to be, irreplacable.  Yes, he was called on to do the core line of novels that did drive the main story of the universe, from the Warrior books on.  But, most of Twilight of the Clans was done by others, with Stackpole's offerings being some of the weaker offerings from that series to my mind (this coming from someone who genuinely enjoyed most of his earlier works, in both BT and Star Wars).  Loren L Coleman was called on to finish the core line, after having done excelent work previously, and 'wrap up' the pre-Jihad era, in effect replacing Stackpole.

Ah, but you forget- from what I recall, Loren thought of an interesting way to develop Sun-Tzu, with reclaiming the St. Ives and recapturing worlds lost to the 4th Succession War...so he went to TPTB with his ideas and got to write the novels (Killing Fields I think?).  But as we see in Stackpole's blog earlier, it was all pre planed and thought out by Stackpole back in the BoK Trilogy, where he showed Sun-Tzu to be able to fool other people, see?  Those are his ideas Loren used.

The Clan Wolf sections in the Field Manuals by Loren were also Stackpole's ideas from Malicious Intent...

Likewise, the Scorpion Jar MWDA novels... that all goes back to 'Ghost War' by Stackpole.  Whatever TPTB do in 3150, will actually be Stackpole's work, because he wrote the...Wolf Hunters' novel?

The Jihad and Wars of Reaving?  Stackpole with the MWDA universe he helped create with Wiesman.


And here I thought Battletech was plotted out in general by TPTB before major plot lines were distributed to the writers   (I.e, A Smoke Jaguar is going to defect to the I.S and show Victor how to get to Huntress.  Who wants to flesh out that story?  Or FASA had planned out a WoB Jihad with Victor uniting everyone to save the I.S).

But no.  Silly me.  It's all Stackpole.  If it wasn't for him, hell, Ben wouldn't have had any ideas of his own for the Wars of Reaving.  Right? ;)

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #91 on: 23 August 2011, 14:01:13 »
She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR.  Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.

OK. I have Ghost War right next to me.  Here's a brief summary. Goldie and Red enter the bar to talk about the mottled lemur. Sam tries to move Goldie *gently* out of the bar and puts a hand on her. Red takes exception to this and starts a fight. In no way was war mentioned. OK. Sam does mention that picking fights with people who have access to chainsaws that can cut through your house is a REALLY bad idea. OK.  Sam does describe Red as going from a hard appearance to a soft appearance later, but that was chalked up to Red using her appearance to manipulate people.

There is a monologue later on how intellectually Sam thought his new companions viewed violence later, but it is internalized and we learn further down the road that Sam is very, very wrong with regards to one member of the GGF.


By the way.....do we ever learn who Red/Elle was working for?
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #92 on: 24 August 2011, 04:12:03 »
I may be totally wrong but I think I remember they were working for Banson to stir up trouble and thus justify his buildup of forces.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #93 on: 23 October 2011, 18:59:27 »
Some of the criticism of Stackpole's Mary Sue-ish heroes, clumsy characterization and being a very 'plot driven' writer are pretty dead-on in my opinion.  His characters very rarely seem 'real' to me, and, in general, I find his Battletech books unsatisfying but not a complete waste of time...I do give him some credit at being good enough, despite his weaknesses, to make you at least want to finish the book.

I also have to say that I enjoyed his work in the Star Wars universe far more than his Battletech stories;  I honestly think his 'what's happening is what this books is about' style and his somewhat flat characters work very well in that setting, and his books benefit from it.

Battletech is, however, at it's heart, more a 'war story' than an 'action story', and I've never seen Stackpole write with the kind of harshness or bite you need to do that well.  His combat scenes with Battlemechs, especially seem to fall flat to me, though his aerospace scenes are much better...in both X-Wing and Battletech, he does planes better than armor.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #94 on: 23 October 2011, 21:21:43 »
Battletech is, however, at it's heart, more a 'war story' than an 'action story', and I've never seen Stackpole write with the kind of harshness or bite you need to do that well.   

Good point.

He doesn't seem to have a good handle on how soldiers tend to react either.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #95 on: 23 October 2011, 21:30:02 »
Good point.

He doesn't seem to have a good handle on how soldiers tend to react either.

Probably comes from being in logistics, and not, you know, combat units.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #96 on: 23 October 2011, 21:59:23 »
Well all the harshness out there is Sad. The Fiction by Stackpole and all the others is what makes the Game more than a Game. it what has been missing sense they stopped making the Fiction books. It would be great to have the Fiction with all that happened during the Jihad and Wars of Reaving. Oh well. Mr. Stackpole was a Guest at Gamestorm this Year. He came and watched us play Our Battle for Tera. What Fun. I think he is Great. Here he is.



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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #97 on: 24 October 2011, 04:20:07 »
I also have to say that I enjoyed his work in the Star Wars universe far more than his Battletech stories;  I honestly think his 'what's happening is what this books is about' style and his somewhat flat characters work very well in that setting, and his books benefit from it.

Star Wars is a very good-vs-evil, unapologetically one-sided fictional universe.  Stackpole does very well in it because it lends itself more to his style of larger-than-life superheroes and mustache-twirling blatant villains.

Well all the harshness out there is Sad. The Fiction by Stackpole and all the others is what makes the Game more than a Game. it what has been missing sense they stopped making the Fiction books. It would be great to have the Fiction with all that happened during the Jihad and Wars of Reaving. Oh well. Mr. Stackpole was a Guest at Gamestorm this Year. He came and watched us play Our Battle for Tera. What Fun. I think he is Great. Here he is.

Eh, different strokes.  I, on the other hand, have found that being a novel character generally makes me actively hate someone.  I like my exploits in sourcebook fashion, an outline for me to fill in some blanks, not have it all mined out with third-person omniscient narration.
« Last Edit: 24 October 2011, 04:22:01 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #98 on: 24 October 2011, 08:07:22 »
Probably comes from being in logistics, and not, you know, combat units.

According to his Bio on his website Mike was never in the military.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #99 on: 24 October 2011, 08:28:55 »
According to his Bio on his website Mike was never in the military.

Huh? I thought one of his old book bios listed him as having been in a logistics command...
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #100 on: 25 October 2011, 01:06:27 »
Star Wars is a very good-vs-evil, unapologetically one-sided fictional universe.  Stackpole does very well in it because it lends itself more to his style of larger-than-life superheroes and mustache-twirling blatant villains.

Yeah, exactly.  It's also all about the big, sweeping storyline and the high-level world changing events, which also suits a plot-driven writer;  there's nothing wrong with being a plot-centric writer, either, so long as you know your limits...and basing more in characters has it's limits too.

I do want to emphasize I'm not really trying to run the guy down...when he's doing something he does well, I greatly enjoy him.  I just think Battletech benefits more from a micro, rather than macro viewpoint.  The gameworld is so freakin' huge that you could tell almost any kind of story you wanted in it, but setting it at the top level, in that zone reserved for superpower nations, sort of brings you up out of...all the really interesting parts. ;)

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #101 on: 30 October 2011, 19:15:20 »
You'd think so, but look at the Warrior Trilogy.  He has the big wedding, bigger than Kim Kardashian, Prince William, and Gene Simmons all put together, leading to the biggest war since the Leno v. Letterman, and all the high level shenanigans that entails and one of the biggest plot points of three books is how Clovis the Lovelorn Dwarf with Daddy Issues finds resolution and no longer needs therapy. 

Yeah.
« Last Edit: 30 October 2011, 19:36:42 by SurfRockSteven »
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #102 on: 07 November 2011, 05:02:58 »


Stackpole is good for what he does. He writes stories to a theme. The Warrior books where awesome. The BoK books were OK (Kai really needs to be smacked and told to grow a pair, IMHO.)

If you want subtlety and character depth read something else. The nitpicking over this or that is asinine and petty. Look at the material he has to work with. Its a story about a game with giant robots, laser beams, etc, etc.  He is just trying to breath some sort of life into it and make it enjoyable for most.

You also have to realize while he was creating these stories, he had to work with what FASA was and had developed at the time. He created these stories with game developers, editors, and countless other people looking over his shoulder telling him this will not work or this is not right, can this character be woman, or some other annoyances.

As for Stackpole's statement, I don't blame him in the least. Monday morning quarterbacking is quite annoying. You don't have millions of fans telling you their thoughts on how to do your job. Let the man write his style and either buy the product or don't.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #103 on: 07 November 2011, 16:43:44 »
Everyone Monday Morning Quarterbacks everything.  It's an American tradition. 

It is interesting that his essay mentioned how the fans could only follow the plotline as he wrote it, that nobody could do nearly as good of a job as he could, and that we needed to chill out because we weren't paying him so we didn't matter anyways...but the writers wrote themselves into a corner and they needed to use the nuke reset button because they couldn't figure out where to go next.

And oh yeah, I need some cash, so please buy some more of my books.   ::)
« Last Edit: 07 November 2011, 16:52:15 by SurfRockSteven »
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #104 on: 07 November 2011, 17:23:45 »
As for Stackpole's statement, I don't blame him in the least. Monday morning quarterbacking is quite annoying. You don't have millions of fans telling you their thoughts on how to do your job. Let the man write his style and either buy the product or don't.

Pointing out the flaws in a poorly written book isn't armchair quarterbacking. Just because I've never written a pop sci-fi trilogy doesn't mean I'm incapable of understanding what makes a story good. Or do you think nobody should criticize anything ever?

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #105 on: 07 November 2011, 17:48:27 »
Pointing out the flaws in a poorly written book isn't armchair quarterbacking. Just because I've never written a pop sci-fi trilogy doesn't mean I'm incapable of understanding what makes a story good. Or do you think nobody should criticize anything ever?

While I can understand that I'm not a writer- nor am I a popular one at that- as a 'Battletech fan' I consider myself part of the targeted audience for his Battletech books .

If I don't care for his writing, am I supposed to just buy it anyway?  Am I not allowed to say that I don't like the way Melissa/Phelan/Kai/Victor are all characters his books will focus on where they lament a lack of confidence and question why people put faith in them, and are willing to die for them?

Am I not allowed to read, say, Heir to the Dragon and find it more satisfying?

And if so, am I allowed to say I liked Blaine's "Target of Opportunity" (for example), yet wish he took "Betrayal of Ideals" in a different direction?

Oh! Oh!  And am I allowed to dislike, or even 'hate' a writer's works and yet acknowledge they could be great people in "real life"?
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SurfRockSteven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #106 on: 07 November 2011, 19:27:34 »
I guess part of the problem I have with Stackpole's writing is what he considers to be important enough to fit into a book.  He gets three books to write up the lead up to the 4th Succession War, the war itself, and the conclusion of the war and tie up all the loose strings into a nice package.  So in addition to planning the wedding, the wedding, the actual war, and the unveiling of the ComGuards, he decides to fit in stuff about Melissa's double, a subplot about Melissa almost being captured and only saved by his pet unit, the Kell Hounds, the Justin Allard is he/isn't he a spy subplot, Solaris VII, the whole Candace Liao going starry eyed over Justin subplot, and finally the entire Aldo Lestrade/Clovis the Dwarf nonsense.  So the pages he does have to tell the story of the war get lost in all the jumping around he does.

Of all of it, the Clovis the Lonely Dwarf thing was the worst.  We have this halfling who pines over chicks he can't have.  If I wanted a story about some chud who can't get laid, I don't need to read about it; I'm living it.  But it's all good when his buddies in the Kell Hounds tell him to just be himself and eventually he'll find some girl with low enough standards.  Of course, in between his girl angst anxiety attacks, he's got his daddy issues.  Seems Daddy is a rapist who doesn't care about Clovis' hood and when it gets levelled by the Dracs, Daddy must pay.  Daddy, who the House Steiner book say was shooting blanks and couldn't have kids, really could after all, but only with poor farm girls he slipped a roofie to. 

I get subplots and I get the whole epic story, but it was too many directions all at once and I haven't even gotten to the characterizations yet.  Melissa is head over heels in love iwth Hanse.  Jailbait don't get excited by 50 year old men.  Anyone over 25 is old.  And it isn't like Katrina can even use the whole "he has huge...tracts of land.  Earn them on your back" pep talk.  Melissa is heir to the entire Lyran Commonwealth.  So do we get a political marriage where the bride is forced to get married and all climbs into bed because it is her duty to be pleased booty?  Nope, she's all in love and whatnot.  And Hanse is pretty cool with being a white hat cowboy.  Does he invade the Capellan Commonwealth because he wants to extend his claim to the Star League thron?  No.  Does he do it out of a sense of revenge for the whole doppleganger thing?  Not really.  He does it because some poor Capellan got brainwashed and that proves that Mad Max needs to go away.  And of course, later on he does the same thing with some kid because he needs Marik's help.  And of course, there's the speech to Mad Max about how he's all evil and whatnot and needs to go.  I wish Hanse just sent a short vid of him standing in front of a rapidly shrinking map of the Capellan Confederation and just says "I got 99 problems but a Liao ain't one."

The problem comes down to Hanse is just a good guy.  He loves a child instead of looking at her as a way out of a political problem.  And of course that's before we get into the skeezy old man trying to tap dat barely legal azz.  The girl isn't doing this reluctantly and she never takes a lover that is closer to her age.  It's all perfect.  Stackpole just can't go shades of gray. 
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #107 on: 08 November 2011, 02:54:31 »
While I can understand that I'm not a writer- nor am I a popular one at that- as a 'Battletech fan' I consider myself part of the targeted audience for his Battletech books .

If I don't care for his writing, am I supposed to just buy it anyway?  Am I not allowed to say that I don't like the way Melissa/Phelan/Kai/Victor are all characters his books will focus on where they lament a lack of confidence and question why people put faith in them, and are willing to die for them?

Am I not allowed to read, say, Heir to the Dragon and find it more satisfying?

And if so, am I allowed to say I liked Blaine's "Target of Opportunity" (for example), yet wish he took "Betrayal of Ideals" in a different direction?

Oh! Oh!  And am I allowed to dislike, or even 'hate' a writer's works and yet acknowledge they could be great people in "real life"?

Moreover, Stackpole wrote the spine novels.  His writing is what colors the characters who keep showing up again and again (and again and again and again...).  If it was based solely on SBs I might think of Victor as that somewhat-incompetent but well-meaning guy who can't catch a break, but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #108 on: 15 November 2011, 20:58:22 »
Moreover, Stackpole wrote the spine novels.  His writing is what colors the characters who keep showing up again and again (and again and again and again...).  If it was based solely on SBs I might think of Victor as that somewhat-incompetent but well-meaning guy who can't catch a break, but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.

If it helps, you can always think of him as just another character in a children's khartoon.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #109 on: 15 November 2011, 23:16:48 »
Victor Rules!  [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose.  O0
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #110 on: 16 November 2011, 11:25:25 »
Victor Rules!  [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose.  O0

Right up until his sister deposes him, anyway.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #111 on: 16 November 2011, 13:26:04 »
Victor Rules!  [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] [rockon] Well
i think he dose.  O0

Battletech is supposed to be a grim universe, where a cynical view is taken towards human nature.  Whether you're the Inner Sphere or the Clans, warfare is common place.  The so-called 'peaceful' Star League that was formed to bring peace to humanity launched a massive and brutal conquest of the Peripheries within four years of it's conception.

Even Hanse Davion- champion of the noble Federated Suns and Victor's father presented his wife with an Inner Sphere wide war that cost the lives of millions of people as a wedding gift.

Victor, by contrast, constantly questions why people have to be mean to eachother.  Why everyone can't hold hands, sing songs, and get along.  He constantly, and consistently, puts people ahead of his own needs- including his enemies.  He regrets being forced to kill the leader of the Clans- despite doing Osis a favor, and wonders why it had to be that way.  With, what, hundreds of millions of people asking him to save them from Katharine and to once again return and lead them...he's willing to go into self imposed exile as he reasons that Kat would be cost his people less than a civil war.  Hell, his own people go to fight a Civil War for him and only when it reaches the point of no return does Victor step up.

He's a direct contrast to the rest of the universe and the theme of Battletech itself.

He doesn't 'rule'- he can't as he's a walking juxtaposition.

Alongside Superman and friends?  Sure, Victor would work.  Not in Battletech.

Hell, Superman- the supposed 'boy scout' has darker moments than Victor.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #112 on: 17 November 2011, 11:28:41 »
And don't forget, Superman can kick Victor's ass.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #113 on: 17 November 2011, 12:45:08 »
But Vic would end up with Lois Lane anyway.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #114 on: 17 November 2011, 13:05:49 »
Victor always gets the girl. Always.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #115 on: 17 November 2011, 13:10:13 »
Battletech is supposed to be a grim universe, where a cynical view is taken towards human nature.  Whether you're the Inner Sphere or the Clans, warfare is common place.  The so-called 'peaceful' Star League that was formed to bring peace to humanity launched a massive and brutal conquest of the Peripheries within four years of it's conception.

Even Hanse Davion- champion of the noble Federated Suns and Victor's father presented his wife with an Inner Sphere wide war that cost the lives of millions of people as a wedding gift.

Victor, by contrast, constantly questions why people have to be mean to eachother.  Why everyone can't hold hands, sing songs, and get along.  He constantly, and consistently, puts people ahead of his own needs- including his enemies.  He regrets being forced to kill the leader of the Clans- despite doing Osis a favor, and wonders why it had to be that way.  With, what, hundreds of millions of people asking him to save them from Katharine and to once again return and lead them...he's willing to go into self imposed exile as he reasons that Kat would be cost his people less than a civil war.  Hell, his own people go to fight a Civil War for him and only when it reaches the point of no return does Victor step up.

He's a direct contrast to the rest of the universe and the theme of Battletech itself.

He doesn't 'rule'- he can't as he's a walking juxtaposition.

Alongside Superman and friends?  Sure, Victor would work.  Not in Battletech.

Hell, Superman- the supposed 'boy scout' has darker moments than Victor.

Could that just possibly be the point? That the kid with hopes for a bright future gets to see nothing but wars and destruction for the majority of his life?
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #116 on: 17 November 2011, 13:14:14 »
But Vic would end up with Lois Lane anyway.

Nah, something would happen to Lois and Vic would end up with Lana Lang as a consolation prize.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #117 on: 17 November 2011, 14:36:01 »
Victor always gets the girl. Always.
And then Morgan Freeman does a voice over and she... she... she... dies.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #118 on: 17 November 2011, 14:51:07 »
Could that just possibly be the point? That the kid with hopes for a bright future gets to see nothing but wars and destruction for the majority of his life?

I seem to recall that Stackpole said on his website that part of the reason he was getting out of Battletech (aside from disagreements with FASA about how much he was owed) was that he felt he would harm the universe if he kept writing Victor- he enjoyed 'torturing' him.

So I suppose that could be part of what Stackpole intended. 

I don't see why, though, you would make the centre protagonist the exact opposite of what the game is about though.
Formerly known as 'Phad'

roosterboy

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #119 on: 17 November 2011, 15:09:10 »
I don't see why, though, you would make the centre protagonist the exact opposite of what the game is about though.

Because there's more dramatic tension that way. A reluctant and conflicted hero who fights despite not wanting to is much better dramatically than some guy who suffers no doubts or remorse about going to war.

 

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