Author Topic: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest  (Read 12051 times)

Colt Ward

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My mercs mech forces are a solid pair of line companies.  No light mechs, what roles they would typically fill can be handled by either vehicles, VTOLs, infantry or the pair of medium skirmisher lances.  So whenever I salvaged a Wasp, Stinger, Javelin or other slower (6/9 or less) light in the 3060s it was sold as salvage or broken up for parts.  Simply they did not bring enough firepower or options to the battle to qualify for a cubicle on my dropships when I had something else that could do the job.

But then I found myself saddled with a rebel militia that was sending three lances of green Wasp, Stingers, a Hermes and pair of old Firestarters as part of a long range intercept.  They had the speed to get to the combat zone and be faster than the escort . . . plus it was also important to fulfilling the contract since it would help those greenies gain experience if I could ensure they saw action and survive.  Because anything dropped or crippled that far out would have to be abandoned though the mechwarrior might get picked up by some SAR.

Then it came to me . . . its like the Indians sitting on the top of a hill watching the settlers/cavalry march through their territory.  The question for the escort commander is, are the bug mechs you are seeing the only mechs in that direction or are there more hiding out of sight over that hill waiting for you to give chase?  Or if the head of your column starts taking fire and you spot those 3 mechs (where is the 4th?  is there a 4th?  mechs usually work as lances, so where is the 4th?) trailing the column . . . well, not everyone can move to the sound of the guns.  Some of the escorts have to honor the threat presented by those bug mechs . . . even if they do not come in range.

Unfortunately with our table top games where everything is displayed, it is one of those 'fog of war' situations we just do not see.

The same situation would apply to a combat line, if you suddenly spotted bug mechs as the outriders of a possible flanking attempt . . . do you turn the line or shift your reserve to protect that flank?  If its not real that can easily push you out of a strong defensive/offensive position or commit that reserve prematurely when it would be needed moments later.

This can become especially important when your support elements are trailing closely behind the forward lines.  If your pickets start encountering bugs on one flank during intermitten contact on your line, are they trying to work around to damage your HQ, ammo or repair elements?  or cut your lines of communication back to those elements?  A Thunderbolt retreating along a road to a repair site missing half its torso would not find it pleasant to run into a lance of Stingers/Wasps.
Colt Ward
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Sabelkatten

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Arguably, the problem is that many (most?) canon light mechs are very badly designed. I get quite a lot of mileage out of slower lights.

As to replacing the with other types of units, that mostly depends on where you're using them, and whether you can bring all the alternatives you need. After all, a jumping mech will do most anywhere except the sea or inside buildings (if you want them intact), you'll need a bunch of other units to match that.

vidar

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I have found that if boards get larger and tech lower those slower lights work just fine.  If your fighting set peice or stand up battles they are not really useful, but as having enough durability and fire power to hit the things that only get light vees and infantry they are fast enough.  Think of them not as your line units but as the out riders raiding the country side.  The Mechs make them tough enough to limp home where vees would fail to return.  Also what era are you playing in? 

Col Toda

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I gave up on light mechs in favor of Combat vehicles as well .  The only place for a light mech from what I can see is Solaris VII  which works on a  different economic model so the 21 million C bill light can happen . For combat I use light vehicles for the roles light do .

Tai Dai Cultist

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If you do scenarios rather than a demolition derby with mechs, lights can come into their own.

If your game is nothing more than last mech standing, obviously lights won't compete with heavies.

JenniferinaMAD

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Light mechs have suffered a fair bit with the tech creep, I think. XL engines mean bigger meks can achieve greater practical speeds, while lights doing the same tend to land in the gap between a +4tmm and +5tmm and thus gain less defence.
At the same time, weapons ranges and accuracies increased across the board while the bigger weapons lost or suffered less from minimum ranges. This means lights have a harder time hitting an advantageous range spot.

Lights with good jump jets still provide excellent mobility compared to vehicles, but if you can afford medium mechs that do the same, the lights lose.

Col Toda

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I never said a good light mech could not be made it can . It just costs 3 X the space and 4 X as much as attrition combat vehicles . Mechs are not attrition units and are far harder to repair and replace. Any light with stealth armor 2 light PPCs or 1 Snub Nosed PPC can be felt . Just costs a lot and only the Cap Con could keep it in armor easily . Other approaches work as well or better tactically but not economically . As I said that 150 ton mech bay could be 3 light vehicle bays so 3 - 50ton hover tanks or 30 ton VTOLs
 

Kovax

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In 3025, with Regular and Green pilots on both sides, Lights could provide effective support on the battlefield, given enough room to maneuver.

In 3050+, with Veteran and Elite pilots on the table, Lights simply don't survive an encounter.  In that case, vehicles can do most of the same job for a lot less expense, while mediums can be modified to fill the other roles and survive.

JenniferinaMAD

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As I said that 150 ton mech bay could be 3 light vehicle bays so 3 - 50ton hover tanks or 30 ton VTOLs

That is true, but vehicles lack the key advantage of mechs: flexibility.

VTOLs can't fly in vacuum. Hovers can't traverse woods and steep inclines. Wheeled and tracked vehicles can't cross rivers without major effort. Jumping mechs can maintain full or at least near full speed no matter the terrain or weather conditions.

When defending a world, you can match vehicle to environment and get the most out of your cheaper units. When attacking, relying on vehicles will cost you in adaptability once your plan makes contact with the enemy. And if you do win and want to move on to the next world, a vehicle force would likely have to be reorganised thoroughly to maintain the suitable terrain aptitude. (Eg you brought the VTOLs to conquer the Forest Moon of Endor, but the next world is Stormion IV, the hurricane resort...)

Colt Ward

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Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #10 on: 18 January 2017, 16:55:39 »
Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.

As you said, you're looking to use campaign factors to affect one off board games. That just doesn't really work all that well.

Any game is by necessity an incomplete, and partially abstracted, simulation. And like all table top wargames, battletech has imposed on it by real world necessity the board edge. Anything beyond the board edge, isn't part of the game simulation, and that does affect how the simulation plays out.

The closest suggestion I have for what you're looking to do is double blind, though outside of megaMek that is a complicated way to play a complicated game.
And just an aside, how do your observations apply to bug mechs in a way they don't apply to vehicles? Wouldn't the base problem of yours (that light mechs don't compare well enough to light vees) persist in this environment as little changed to takes advantage of a mech's innate traits?

vidar

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #11 on: 18 January 2017, 21:25:23 »
Those other paragraphs are exactly what I am talking about, the use of light mech to hit "softer" targets and survive fire or terrain that would cripple vees. And yes thinking of the as Victorian light cavalry is a very good idea.

StoneRhino

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #12 on: 20 January 2017, 07:30:09 »
Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.

They did. One of the problems with vehicles, especially with the standard TW rules is just how easily they are immobilized. That alone will boost the value of a light mech as a scout over any ground vehicle. Against a vtol it depends on what is going on, but the light mech with jumpjets can always use cover while the vtol cannot.

As for firepower, later era lights have a lot more then the older versions. They probably gained more on average then the higher weight classes. Then again if you are using light mechs for firepower then you're doing it wrong. As for options its the same as any vehicle,  but the additional mobility allows them to get where vehicles run into problems.

What is amusing is that the same issue could be made of heavier mechs since there are many vehicles that can deal just as much damage as a mech of the same weight class, but will cost less then the mech while still offering the same options.

For your games though it seems it comes down to space in the dropship and that really is the problem as it shapes the view of units. If you have 4 mech slots and 2 vehicle slots then that informs your decision far more then actual performance. However, it depends upon the vehicle slots and what they can accommodate as I would suggest that an Alacorn would be far better then a Condor hover, and I would instead use a Spider as my scout. I believe you would get better results if you mentioned what your dropship is capable of carrying and people could examine the information from a similar perspective as your own. O0

Kovax

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #13 on: 20 January 2017, 10:57:08 »
The other point to consider is that a dropship can carry cargo.  Not everything needs to be in 'Mech cubicles or vehicle bays, only the units needed for rapid deployment.  Carry a 20 ton scout 'Mech as cargo, spend the time unloading it and taking it out of mothballs, and several hours later in the day you've got your scout, without giving up three 50 ton vehicle bays or bumping a 75 ton Heavy 'Mech from the roster.

Demon55

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #14 on: 20 January 2017, 11:34:33 »
I use light mechs (almost always with jump jets) because: they are harder to immobilize than vehicles (especially hover tanks and VTOLs) when used as scouts.  They can add flexibility to the unit even though they need to be used conservatively in most cases.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #15 on: 20 January 2017, 13:13:49 »
Logistics is a good point.

It's cheaper to transport the personnel required to put a 20 mech in combat than it does a 20 ton tank.  If you're going to conduct operations on a world other than your home garrison, light mechs have a tangible logistical advantage.  Whatvever more tonnage of expendibles like food/water/air a multi-person tank crew requires than a single mechwarrior does, that's dropship cargo tonnage saved for ammo, parts, or even more food/water/air.

snewsom2997

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #16 on: 20 January 2017, 15:00:03 »
Use the 35 tonners. I tend to get the most life out of those. Short of a Heavy Gauss or a AC/20 they will hold up longer. Focus on Laser Heavy Designs, Medium Laser in Particular.

The Cougar, Adder, Jenner, Wolfhound and Ostscout are Prime Examples of what I am taking about

Breetai

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #17 on: 20 January 2017, 20:56:07 »
I've had success running pure combat lights in 3025 campaigns, namely with a full lance of modified Hussars that dropped the speed to 8/12, but used all of the tonnage gained on armour, making them able to absorb multiple shots from heavier weapons. The key was to hide them in reserve until the battle was fully committed, and only then bring them out and flank. Being in the position where you need to either retreat from the main battle line and potentially expose your rear to it, or else face the prospect of four Large Lasers constantly firing at your rear arc, is a prospect that even a Banshee-S has a difficult time dealing with.

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #18 on: 22 January 2017, 00:56:16 »
The other point to consider is that a dropship can carry cargo.  Not everything needs to be in 'Mech cubicles or vehicle bays, only the units needed for rapid deployment.  Carry a 20 ton scout 'Mech as cargo, spend the time unloading it and taking it out of mothballs, and several hours later in the day you've got your scout, without giving up three 50 ton vehicle bays or bumping a 75 ton Heavy 'Mech from the roster.

That works fine for second and later waves, but one of the first things the first wave will likely want up and running right after landing (or even before with orbital drops) is scouts and skirmishers so that the heavier machines will know where to intercept any counterattacks before they get close enough to fire on the dropship.
You could use ASFs initially, but I don't think they'll last the full 8 hours it takes to unmothball a unit (according to MekHQ, is that right?), before refuelling/maintenance and pilot fatigue will rip some holes into your defensive screen.

Colt Ward

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #19 on: 22 January 2017, 01:00:17 »
While this is straying . . . yeah, a 6/9/6 bug playing scout or recon is not going to last those 8 hours either because if it does get pushed most mediums out there will be able to chase it down well with in that time frame.  But I was not talking about using vehicles, medium mechs or air assets for the recon . . . rather their use in feints & ruses- while the aforementioned DB makes it much easier I think hidden units would work as well and is much easier to use on a table.
Colt Ward
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SCC

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #20 on: 22 January 2017, 04:03:00 »
A vehicle, with multiple crew members, is probably more suited to 8 hour patrols then any 'Mech. Also so few light 'Mechs have to the long range weaponry you'd put on such a design. Finally a vehicle is a bit easier to hide under cameo netting then a 'Mech, at least without lying it down.

Orcmaul

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #21 on: 22 January 2017, 09:29:52 »
I'm inferring from various statements that suggest fast non-jumping mechs and light vehicles are preferred over jumping mechs like stingers, wasps, and javelins that you haven't fought many battles in the woods or in hilly terrain.  Changing elevation repeatedly while running in and out of woods eats up ground MPs quickly.  When there's a fair amount of woods scattered around the board you can jump from woods hex to woods hex getting close to the enemy when initiative and position favor you or retreating when the situation is against you.  With a constant +4 or better to hit rolls even if you aren't landing many hits you are tying up resources chasing a mech that's worth approximately 300 BV for stingers and wasps.  Tracked vehicles can attempt to pursue them into woods but suffer even more from elevation changes and heavy woods and steep hills (2+ levels) are going to limit your paths.  Also they can kick heavier mechs that try to hide in woods and force PSRs.  In summary they are situationally annoying.

I fought a recon raid battle today where I did exactly this against a lance of heavies.  I completed the sneak and peak victory conditions (get to opponent's board edge and spend 2 turns not moving then return to own board edge) and also downed a guillotine (back shot ammo crit) with a reinforced lance of a firestarter mirage, javelin, wasp, stinger, and locust. 

VTOLs might have the move mods but they don't have the durability.  A warrior VTOL can take one medium laser to any side but the next hit kills it and unless you hide behind hills and never miss PSRs and slip into terrain you're exposed to a lot more possible fire.  In the battle above the only major damage I sustained was my stinger lost an arm but was able to jump away and retreat off the board. 

You also mentioned that you are recovering lots of light mech salvage so you'll likely always have a rich supply of spare parts.  The stinger above returned to my employer's dropships where I had two technical teams mount an arm I'd salvaged in a previous contract, replace all of the components and armor, and reload the machine guns in 3 hours.  It would have taken longer to do it in field conditions but that stinger could easily be a less than 12 hour turnaround as long as you've got the parts and manpower.

Jumpy lights are not the killiest units ever but when used to harass and annoy an enemy in rough terrain they are cost effective and durable. 
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Colt Ward

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #22 on: 22 January 2017, 22:45:42 »
I'm inferring from various statements that suggest fast non-jumping mechs and light vehicles are preferred over jumping mechs like stingers, wasps, and javelins that you haven't fought many battles in the woods or in hilly terrain.  Changing elevation repeatedly while running in and out of woods eats up ground MPs quickly.  When there's a fair amount of woods scattered around the board you can jump from woods hex to woods hex getting close to the enemy when initiative and position favor you or retreating when the situation is against you.

When the job is to scout, recon or be a picket on patrol . . . you do not want to light off a fusion flare while moving.  Sort of hard to sneak up on anyone or go unobserved.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #23 on: 23 January 2017, 00:13:34 »
That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.

Lights shine at this level of strategy, which isn't represented in most board games because of the aforementioned end of simulation at the board edge, but also because as a game, the forces are inherently assumed to be balanced. The job of a recon unit is to find unbalanced targets your forces can roflstomp in what most would find quite an uninteresting game if played out.

Colt Ward

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #24 on: 23 January 2017, 00:31:42 »
Seems he is talking about optimization in combat though I will grant your post does have a point about using them for misdirection if an enemy cannot see over that hill.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Orcmaul

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #25 on: 23 January 2017, 01:40:07 »
When the job is to scout, recon or be a picket on patrol . . . you do not want to light off a fusion flare while moving.  Sort of hard to sneak up on anyone or go unobserved.

I find it unlikely anyone is going to tabletop a stealth recon scenario with no fighting in it.  I mean you could with plenty of double blind and sensor simulation but should you? 

Jump jets use heated atmosphere as reaction mass (Tech Manual p38-39).  Brief thermal emission?  Sure.  Heat sensors have a combat range of 27 hexes (Tacops p222).  Heavy woods also reduces the effective range of a variety of sensors.  They might detect you if you were within a mapsheet or two of them. 

When doing stealth recon you wouldn't need to be dodging and weaving so jumping or even running/flanking ground movement would be counterproductive.  The dust cloud from a ground vehicle doing 150kph is not stealthy either.  Stealth recon probably involves finding a decent hide and dialing your reactor down as low as you can get it and still keep your passive sensors running. 

Now the actual scenario you'll see on the tabletop is a recon raid where engaging the enemy is part of the recon.  During that time you may also infiltrate some units behind their lines using the recon raid as a distraction.  With a whole packet of camouflaged (unless you rock nascar paint on scout mechs) stingers and wasps jumping around causing utter chaos would anyone notice if one of them broke contact and retreated off of the enemy side of the board to go spot for artillery and air strikes in the rear?

I'm just trying to strike a balance between theoretical/rp and tabletop. 
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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #26 on: 23 January 2017, 08:42:41 »
The advent of Pulse Lasers with or with out Targeting Computers .  AES with anything . Or Precision AC ammo all reduce a light mechs move penalties . I have designed a 50 ton hover tank that can take 60 pts to the turret and front Armor ,  It can move bettween hull down positions 7 hexes apart and go hull down for a +5 defensive modifier .  So on the defensive I can get something that can take more damage and get as good as a light with an XL engine and MASC and or Supercharger defensive value . On offensive I can bring a hover tank with a TAG ; LMG Array /4 ; and Light AC/5 with Precision Ammo to range 2 get a + 3 or +4 movement modifier and have enough Armor to handle getting hit by an AC 20 if need be at any location . Yes it still suffers Motive Critical but that the price of doing business . I can Carry 3 of these tanks in the space I would carry 1 locust  . Unlike a light mech I get the option of choosing to charge to take out a mechs legs in battle ( A vehicle can only hit the legs .)

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #27 on: 25 January 2017, 19:21:32 »
That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.

Lights shine at this level of strategy, which isn't represented in most board games because of the aforementioned end of simulation at the board edge, but also because as a game, the forces are inherently assumed to be balanced. The job of a recon unit is to find unbalanced targets your forces can roflstomp in what most would find quite an uninteresting game if played out.
I like the cut of your jib... O0

Colt Ward

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #28 on: 25 January 2017, 19:44:13 »
Hmm . . . I actually like that and will have to see how hard that would be to add in as a table top game . . .

3 scout teams, all moving about the board obviously checking your defensive approaches.  The attack force is behind one of them and can come on the board of any of the 3 based on their reports . . .

Defender needs to keep the scouts away without revealing too much of their position or getting pulled out of position chasing the scouts.

Turn X, the attacker main body arrives- either releasing emcon to go into the attack or they arrive via a combat drop but the location is determined they arrive is based on the scout forces.  It then shifts over into your typical objective raid attack, but scouts positioned the 'raid.'
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Kovax

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #29 on: 26 January 2017, 10:55:22 »
If you require the entry point to be in the scouted path of a recon team, or a drop point to be targeted to within some short distance of a recon team (and then arrive a couple of turns later), that makes their report and presence more important.

Sure, Col Toda, or most other players with any experience at the game, can design a 50 ton vehicle which will out-perform a 20 ton 'Mech.  You can generally do a lot more with customs than with canon designs.  The point is, you can carry five 20 ton 'Mechs as cargo, instead of only two of those 50 ton custom vehicles, and the total crew requirements for those vehicles (3 men each) will actually exceed that of the 'Mechs by a man, although the slightly higher tech hour requirements of the extra 'Mechs versus a smaller number of heavier class vehicles will probably even it back out again.  The only down side is that you'll need to deploy at least a couple of recon units ('Mechs or vehicles) at the start, for the couple of hours until those "bugs" are unloaded and prepped for action.  In that case, a fast Medium 'Mech (like a PXH) probably makes more sense for an initial recon asset, due to its greater survivability and concentration of firepower.

If your only concern is firepower on a flat mapsheet, the vehicles will bring more guns to the table for the transport tonnage and cost.  If you're worried about that line of woods blocking hover and wheeled vehicles, hilly terrain dropping all vehicle speeds to a crawl, or a shallow river being a problem for tracked and wheeled, and recon ability is more important than firepower, the 'Mechs are likely to be the better answer in more situations.

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #30 on: 26 January 2017, 15:55:12 »
I think 50 ton vehicles need four crew, not three (it's one per 15 tons of vehicle or fraction thereof, right?).

Kovax

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #31 on: 27 January 2017, 09:58:03 »
I think 50 ton vehicles need four crew, not three (it's one per 15 tons of vehicle or fraction thereof, right?).
Might be 1 per 15t, but I was thinking 20t.  I don't have the books here with me.  Either way, the vehicle crews will exceed the number of Mechwarriors, and the heavier vehicles will eat up almost as much tech time as the greater number of lighter 'Mechs.

Ulitmately it's not relevant, since I can probably design a better 30-35t scout 'Mech than either a Wasp/Stinger/Locust or a 50 ton custom vehicle, if customs are considered.  Using what's available in canon designs, there are both advantages and disadvantages to using either 'Mechs or vehicles for recon, rather than any clear-cut "this is better" choice.  Ideally, I'd want a couple of each, rather than all of one or the other.

SCC

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #32 on: 28 January 2017, 01:43:52 »
That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?
Due to a bit of weirdness I think this stagey is something the Lyrans are most likely to be able to pull off.

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.
True, up to a point, but part of doing that would require addressing The Infantry Problem in the rules. In universe the argument is that hovercraft never go more then 1 meter above ground, WiGE's are rarely more then 6 and helicopters can go as low as 6, where as a jumping 'Mech will go a lot more, Wasps go as high as 36 meters, some go even higher, so vehicles can hide from radar in ground clutter, 'Mechs can't. Also (Jumping) 'Mechs are automatically using fusion engines, and I believe there's sensors to detect that (This means that as of 3145 there should be FCE powered recon vehicles). And finally 'Mechs are virtually unique in that they can be picked up by seismic sensors.

Sure, Col Toda, or most other players with any experience at the game, can design a 50 ton vehicle which will out-perform a 20 ton 'Mech.  You can generally do a lot more with customs than with canon designs.  The point is, you can carry five 20 ton 'Mechs as cargo, instead of only two of those 50 ton custom vehicles, and the total crew requirements for those vehicles (3 men each) will actually exceed that of the 'Mechs by a man, although the slightly higher tech hour requirements of the extra 'Mechs versus a smaller number of heavier class vehicles will probably even it back out again.
If you can provide evidence of units regularly being transported as cargo under assault circumstances please do so, otherwise I'm going to have to assume that they aren't. (Not saying your argument is bad, just that if it isn't used it should be used.)

wanderer25

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #33 on: 29 January 2017, 14:48:58 »


 Here's one job for light mechs I havent seen brought up yet: Artillery supression!

If you're having problems with mortars, towed artillery or even missile carriers, dispatch some Stinger/Locust/Wasp to infiltrate the rear
and silence these. The mg's take care of the crews while the srm and med lasers of the weapons/vehicles.

In addition you can go on and raid rear supply lines. As long as you hit and run and not linger  to give better units time to catch up you
can  tie up resources that might otherwise be used on the front line.

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #34 on: 31 January 2017, 16:21:29 »
If you want to use light mechs and make them useful on the tabletop, here's what you do.

Get together with your opponent and agree to scenarios that make logical sense for light mechs.

Somebody earlier mentioned the damaged Thunderbolt headed back to base, that encounters a lance of 20 tonners.  That's a perfect example of a fun battle that will be relatively balanced.  You don't have to play out a double blind scenario where everybody is trying to outmaneuver the other.  Simply declare that the battles you will play out will be a portion of what is going on in the invasion.  Let the lights get a moment in the sun, and then assume that's what they're doing the rest of the war.

Take a Stinger and a Wasp and throw them against a company of infantry and a Scorpion tank.  Your justification is that it's a raid on a small munitions outpost.  The armies are fighting with what they have, and while some super-hovercraft would probably be really good in that situation, all the super-hovercrafts are currently busy.  Scarcity is a real thing in war.

Use an objective in a fight.  The attackers are coming through a ravine and they have to get past defenders to get to the other side.  Put 4 mapsheets end to end long-wise, with the light mechs coming in from the side of mapsheet 1, and the defending mechs starting on the line between mapsheets 2 and 3.  The defenders have more tonnage, but the attackers don't have to destroy any defenders.  The attackers have to get off the edge of mapsheet 4.  Once past, they're considered to be able to outrun the defenders and they'll have a straight line to the target (so they win).  So it's just a battle of maneuver for the attackers, while the defenders have to destroy them.

--

As far as vehicles, light mechs have the advantage that they resist attrition better.  A hovercraft or a VTOL can move faster and carry more weapons, ton for ton.  But let's presume that we're going to use our mechs to fight intelligently.  Not fun, but smart.  Something fast with an AC 2 would be an absolutely lethal machine, as long as you had hours and hours and hours to play out every single engagement.

Take a stock 3025 Vulcan battlemech.  Generally one of those mechs that nobody wants to take.  But it has 6/9/6 movement, okay armor, and an AC 2.  What is his job?  His job is to snipe and harass vehicles from very long range.  Take a shot at every VTOL that flies by.  A lance of hovercraft?  Shoot at 'em.  A column of heavy tanks rolling down the street?  Empty your ammo bin shooting at them.  Basically you fire until the gun is empty and then you hightail it back to base.  What good does this do?  You're going to cause motive hits, the occasional critical, knock out a few weapons, things like that.

On its own, this one mech isn't going to do a whole lot.  But in an environment where there's always some jackass with a little gun plinking away at you, those things start to add up.  A battlemech will very rarely take any sort of serious damage from these harassing engagements (there's always the chance for a through-armor-critical, but not nearly like with a vehicle).  So the battlemech can almost always return to its dropship and have armor replaced.  Top off its ammo bin, and the mech is ready to go out again.  But with vehicles, you get that hovercraft that got immobilized 200 miles from the city.  You have to send people out to recover it.  You get VTOLs that crash.  Turrets get stuck and weapons get destroyed.

Low intensity engagements heavily favor battlemechs over the long run.  While we like to play the "big smashy robots fight to the death" type games, mechs are best suited to deny those types of fights to vehicles.  While nobody wants to play that out (who really wants to play a Vulcan shooting at 24 hexes, needing 11s and 12s to hit a group of Rommel tanks for 45 turns, hoping for a lucky crit?  Nobody, that's who), we can presume that those sorts of boring battles are happening offscreen.

Why do I bring this up?  That's your justification for why people don't flood the battlefield with tricked out vehicles.  Light artillery fire, some prick with a snipey gun, somebody who lays down some Thunder LRM-5s scattered across a battlefield, the 31st century's equivalent of a D&D "wandering monster chart" whittles down vehicles.  It's this environment where light mechs really thrive, because they're less vulnerable to a random 2 point or 5 point damage location.

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #35 on: 31 January 2017, 19:51:33 »
+1 to all of that!  I once found myself in a campaign game where one scenario had us having to take down a fortification.  Time wasn't a factor, so the Vulcan got the job (and the win, eventually... after a few reloads).

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #36 on: 01 February 2017, 05:40:08 »
I just came to the conclusion that light mechs do have Era Specific uses that during those Era's they have good reasons to exist .  For instance during the Star league Light mechs were assigned to infantry formations and as such could support boots on the ground during the Reunification wars and such . Before the pulse laser is rediscovered is another time window that such things were very good and effective .  I mostly start Campaigns 3039 or later so the window in which I play that the light mech is a very nice thing is at best 11 years . After 3050 the cost VS results start to wane . I do not actually fully abandon the use of light mechs until 3062 in which is the turning point for me .  I do not know if other's have the same experience but I expect they have .  If all your games are before 3062 or never progress beyond it you very well have a different experience than me .  If you fight in urban areas a great deal having something that moves fast at a walk or cruising speed is a plus as many do not want to make a PSR to avoid skidding .

truetanker

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #37 on: 05 February 2017, 21:16:06 »
Colt~

A suggestion:

How many 50 ton vehicle cubicles can you spare right now?

Cause if you can spare 4... I might be able to help. Your worried about losing mech space and not having a skirmisher light scout for possible escort duties right? Why not pick up some Battlemech Recovery Vehicles, load them up with your heavier fire supports and use the recovered space for a Light Lance? If you have slow mechs heavier than 55-60 tons, I suggest the Heavy version.

Also the Flatbed Truck can be used with a open flatbed trailer to move 2/3 with up to 32 tons. It weighs 10 tons.... look it up.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck

Standard double weight / cargo carrying applies.

TT
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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #38 on: 05 February 2017, 23:34:05 »
One tactic that I have used in the past is quite simple: Misinformation.

The recon lance I was running had a custom Phoenix Hawk, a Spector, a Osiris, and a Owen Prime. All 4 had Guardian ECM's. Two would run "ghosts" to make false readings on the scanners, while the other two were set up as jammers.

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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #39 on: 06 February 2017, 12:10:05 »
Their is an Argus mech with an Active Probe and a RAC /5 .  Having your scouts as heavy mechs as recon with potentially enough force to avoid the need to bring up heavier guns may save a great deal of time . As for Colts suggestion for mech recovery vehicles is all well and good but slow . I like a modified Buffalo Support with winch system and a squad of heavy lifting Armored Exoskeleton's or after 3070  a Tunbo for Salvage sadly this means a 200 ton Large vehicle bay or in the case of the Tunbo converting the small craft bays of a Rose drop ship to carry 4 Tunbos instead of small craft .  The Mech recovery vehicle requires days or hours ; the the Buffalo requires hours to minutes ; and the Tunbo minutes to seconds to pick up salvage plus travel time to and from the LZ. I like comparing VTOLs and Hover Tanks with light  mechs and it's role and the comparative sacrifice for said vehicles vs a mech and their bays . Once you move to Salvage an 80 ton mech recovery vehicle going 2/3 VS a Buffalo going I think 5/8 even with the smaller payload that it can carry is more than 2x faster on the round trip . The Tunbo can pick up just about anything with a 112 ton lift capacity so you are trading efficiency for that bay space . So if you can spare 4 : ton bays yes getting 2 mech recovery vehicles or 1 Buffalo or Tunbo is very much worth it .

truetanker

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #40 on: 06 February 2017, 18:46:04 »
Can't you transfer an active mech to lay down on the BRV? I remember a Panther? in one Dark Age novel that was on trailer used in a trap.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #41 on: 07 February 2017, 10:40:36 »
For Stock Vehicles check out the 3058 Pegasus Scout . 35 tons with TAG , Active Probe , ECM , med laser and an SRM Launcher .  If you put Infernos in the SRM Launcher it truly becomes value added . The numbers for the unit seems a little off in the TRO but I do not know by how much . It moves 8/12 with a standard fusion engine . For VTOLs The Warrior S9 ( Prototype TRO ) is disgustingly effective  with Stealth Armor and ELRM - 10 at 21 tons .  You basically can fire at range 22 ( med range for ELRM ) and move 10 to get an effective + 10 defensive modifier ( near impossible ) . Realistically the VTOL arrives attacks the mech on the extreme right or left flank until it runs out of ammo and leaves . It is unlikely the opposition force have something like the old hunchback with a max range of 9 for the S9 to take advantage of it's 12 hex short range .  The only good counters to this is fast mechs with MASC and / or super chargers and pulse lasers or an Inner Sphere Arrow IV launcher with ADA rounds .  AC with Precision Rounds and a targeting computer and Silver Bullet Gauss or LBX are poor second best ideas . Both are effective combat vehicles  to fill the roles of light mechs but are not universally applicable as aforementioned above by combat vehicle detractors vs mechs. It works better with mercenary companies over regular units as Mercenary Companies who want to control costs and losses will not except a contract on a world that does not permit the use of the combat vehicles in the target area where regular units go where they are assigned and as such may have the vehicles sidelined to the LZ as the terrain does not favor them. An established Mercenary company will actually say no to a contract if the profit vs loss by terrain does not work in their favor .

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #42 on: 07 February 2017, 14:32:49 »
For Stock Vehicles check out the 3058 Pegasus Scout . 35 tons with TAG , Active Probe , ECM , med laser and an SRM Launcher .  If you put Infernos in the SRM Launcher it truly becomes value added . The numbers for the unit seems a little off in the TRO but I do not know by how much . It moves 8/12 with a standard fusion engine . For VTOLs The Warrior S9 ( Prototype TRO ) is disgustingly effective  with Stealth Armor and ELRM - 10 at 21 tons .  You basically can fire at range 22 ( med range for ELRM ) and move 10 to get an effective + 10 defensive modifier ( near impossible ) . Realistically the VTOL arrives attacks the mech on the extreme right or left flank until it runs out of ammo and leaves . It is unlikely the opposition force have something like the old hunchback with a max range of 9 for the S9 to take advantage of it's 12 hex short range .  The only good counters to this is fast mechs with MASC and / or super chargers and pulse lasers or an Inner Sphere Arrow IV launcher with ADA rounds .  AC with Precision Rounds and a targeting computer and Silver Bullet Gauss or LBX are poor second best ideas . Both are effective combat vehicles  to fill the roles of light mechs but are not universally applicable as aforementioned above by combat vehicle detractors vs mechs. It works better with mercenary companies over regular units as Mercenary Companies who want to control costs and losses will not except a contract on a world that does not permit the use of the combat vehicles in the target area where regular units go where they are assigned and as such may have the vehicles sidelined to the LZ as the terrain does not favor them. An established Mercenary company will actually say no to a contract if the profit vs loss by terrain does not work in their favor .

Well, I think you're presuming a lot of factors there.  First, you're assuming that a mercenary unit will have access to any equipment they want, that they can pick and choose their units like you're buying something on Amazon.  I don't think that's the reality of 31st and 32nd century warfare.  You're talking about a prototype piece of equipment.  Very likely, you don't have access to that design at all.

Second, you're presuming that merc units are able to pick and choose their contracts as though there are an unlimited amount.  Nothing in the Battletech history would support that idea.  There are a limited number of contracts available, money is usually tight.  Often merc units have to take assignments just to pay the bills.  You have to be an elite unit to be able to pass on jobs regularly, and even they are often forced into situations where they take jobs they don't like.

Third, you're also presuming that you've got total knowledge of what a contract would require.  You may believe the terrain is favorable and then find out that it is not.  Your opponents may move the battle into unfavorable terrain.  Most planets do not have one single ecosystem (desert planet, forest planet, etc).

Finally, the more you specialize, the more you force yourself to the periphery of warfare (little "p" periphery, not big "P" Periphery).  You might be able to make a very good living with your ELRM Stealth VTOL unit.  But recognize that you're an extreme specialist unit that only gets deployed in weird situations.  You do not represent the majority of combat encounters in the Inner Sphere.

There's nothing wrong with playing what is basically "special forces" Battletech, but you have to realize it's an extremely unrepresentative look at the game.  By the way, my counter to Stealth VTOLs?  The same thing that people did in the real world.  Find out where their base is, stick some hidden units of LRM infantry there, and wait for them to come back to base after a mission.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #43 on: 09 February 2017, 02:52:38 »
Massey is correct in general . My unit started with Shiltron Primes , Owen light Omni mechs , jump and foot combat engineer platoons . Like the Summerset Strikers was created as a response team . As mercenaries we could go anywhere along the Clan front and build minefields , gun emplacements , traps , and bridges . The idea was to slow the Clan advance as much as possible. Once the Clan War Era ended most of the contracts were garrison or Cadre while building defences for Clients militia to take over and move over to other jobs . As one of a 6 or less Combat Engineer mercenary units we got to almost cherry pick contracts so by no means typical . Later we branched out to being subcontracters for larger units for Artillery Support , Salvage , and LZ perimeter defense . As for the units I mentioned , the Pegasus Scout I have seen fielded by just about everyone but the Clans and Periphery States . The Warrior S 9  requires luck during the Jihad to capture any or less luck overrunning a Republic base during the Early Dark Age or scratch build in a Solaris VII stable hanger anytime after the Jihad Era . Regardless unless you are a WoB or RoS unit you can not field or maintain more than a lance of them . As for getting LRM infantry passed remote sensor networks , Battle Armor , combat vehicle patrols with some mech and artillery support that would be tough to pull off . LZ defense being something I specialize in. My experience is by no means typical and only by being able to cherry pick some contracts , being specialist artillery , Salvage, and LZ defense subcontractors for large multi unit offensives that I did well . I filled a niche and then created my own opportunities . The down side is the unit is so specialized that I have to decline any contract that my unit is sub optimal for . This is why I could eventually lose the light mechs for combat vehicles . Any unit that gets large enough with a big enough cash flow tends to maintain a Solaris VII stable which only has to break even or not too far in the red to give that unit access to white , gray , and black markets to get limited supplies of just about everything. For instance Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor before 3075 it was only available in the Lyran Commonwealth after that it becomes available in the Draconis Combine and be the Republic Era even more. Bottom Line anyone with Solaris VII connections can maintain a lance of just about anything and scratch build if necessary if enough of the technical aspects are known.

abou

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #44 on: 09 February 2017, 16:35:39 »
Light 'mechs in BattleTech seem to really work best in the meta of the game rather than on the actual table. They perform better in Alpha Strike where their presence can cause a big headache; this is mainly from the way movement modifiers work.

I've always tried to find a way for lights to work within a greater campaign setting, but I have found the rules that are published kind of clunky and not really what I want. Part of the problem is that a BattleTech game can last, say, 20 rounds. That translates to 3 minutes and 20 seconds in the game. The fiction may have a fight last an hour with time for reinforcements to arrive that are 20 or 30 km away. How are you supposed to make that work with a satisfying feel in a greater campaign setting?

As mentioned above, lights benefit from more mapsheets. Flanking moves and the ability to pick off weakened 'mechs or pounce on isolated units that strayed too far from support work well. However, the later the game era, the harder things become. A PPC or gauss cannon can really ruin your day.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #45 on: 10 February 2017, 08:17:50 »
abou statement of how light mechs perform better in Alpha Strike loses the fact Alpha Strike is so simplistic that heavy mechs with the same number values would be 2X more effective in optimal terrain .  In my opinion it does not represent the Total Warfare well at all . Still light mechs before 3050 are a solid unit .  The Petra in the Jihad Era is among the last light mechs of truly high effectiveness . It is not uncommon that the last 20% of performance is paid by the last 80% of the price tag of any piece of military hardware .  Light mechs often go to XL or  Light Fusion Engines while Assault tend to have standard or compact fusion engines .  The only reason combat vehicles are truly attractive is cost and learning curve needed for the crew . Really High BV units tend to contribute to short brutal fights .  I try to field 2 companies of mechs and vehicles which normally eliminates 3 enemy units per turn if the targets are within 17 hexes from the majority of the formation ; that 6 turns at optimal range to the enemy 24 or 25 mechs . I do not think that 8- 12 turn combats are too long .  The 2 best ways to quicken a game is use heat neutral combat vehicles and cool running mechs .  The best way to make it longer is to have TSM on any mech at all .

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #46 on: 10 February 2017, 10:22:34 »

Dunno how relevant to the OP this is, but I don't think sheer numbers and pack tactics have been mentioned.  In large enough numbers against slow-enough opponents, lights shine in the boardgame without resorting to off-board, meta-game considerations or Alpha Strike.

To show the value of lighter units to newbs and dissuade munchkin assaults, I like a Level 1 "Wolf's Dragoons" training game where the newb runs 2-3 Wolfhounds against an experienced player with 1 Marauder II.  The Wolfhounds usually win, or at least make a very good showing.

There are also canon units, like the Amphigean LAGs, that even specialize in these massed, light mech tactics.

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massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #47 on: 10 February 2017, 13:39:22 »
abou statement of how light mechs perform better in Alpha Strike loses the fact Alpha Strike is so simplistic that heavy mechs with the same number values would be 2X more effective in optimal terrain .  In my opinion it does not represent the Total Warfare well at all . Still light mechs before 3050 are a solid unit .  The Petra in the Jihad Era is among the last light mechs of truly high effectiveness . It is not uncommon that the last 20% of performance is paid by the last 80% of the price tag of any piece of military hardware .  Light mechs often go to XL or  Light Fusion Engines while Assault tend to have standard or compact fusion engines .  The only reason combat vehicles are truly attractive is cost and learning curve needed for the crew . Really High BV units tend to contribute to short brutal fights .  I try to field 2 companies of mechs and vehicles which normally eliminates 3 enemy units per turn if the targets are within 17 hexes from the majority of the formation ; that 6 turns at optimal range to the enemy 24 or 25 mechs . I do not think that 8- 12 turn combats are too long .  The 2 best ways to quicken a game is use heat neutral combat vehicles and cool running mechs .  The best way to make it longer is to have TSM on any mech at all .

Well, some of this is only important in a very specific style of game.  You're talking about a late era BV balanced game with unlimited selection criteria.  With a different setup, you'll get very different results.

In the "real world" of the game, they don't balance units by Battle Value.  They aren't trying to find a sweet spot where something is BV cheap but still effective.  They select units based upon considerations we don't deal with in the game, like transport time to the location of the fight, the number that were manufactured, etc.  400 years ago, there were factories that churned out Wasps in countless numbers, so it doesn't matter if it would cost less C-Bills to build one versus building a scout hovercraft.  You have a lot of them and so that's what you use.

Comparing fully optimized units is going to result in a handful of designs being "the best" and everything else being a "don't take".  Sure, a super-fast light mech is going to be in real trouble if it runs into some super-accurate targeting pulse laser monster.  But how often are those two going to encounter each other?  They fulfill different roles, fight on different battlefields. 

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #48 on: 11 February 2017, 08:48:56 »
Massey is correct the pulse laser targeting computer monster is not encountered often on the same battlefield . Most of the stock units with that combination was fielded between 3060 and 3078  with the very rare unit before and after. The strategic counter to that was fielding more heavy , heavily armored and armed units with support units with inferno or incendiary ammo. Every piece of new hardware brings in a tactical doctrine to make the most of it which in turn ushers in Strategic , tactical and hardware counters for it . My point is once a player encounters it , do they choose to abandon the light mech at all , just for the 18 year window you are most likely to encounter it , or altogether . Even my hardware and tactical choices have window of years in which the WoB potentially fields a hardware counter for . I chose to ride out the Jihad with the risk they would field enough to crush me . After the Jihad so much WoB hardware was reflexively shelved including the hardware I was worried about . It is human nature to adapt . If you have one or two encounters that your light mechs get crushed by some technical combination do you abandon  the light mech for cheap attrition combat vehicles or not ? It is an individual player's Strategic choice how well that choice works out determines if it was the correct one or not .  I made my choice for better or worse it has so far worked for me under my specific circumstances along a specific timeline in specific theaters of combat . Different ERA's , affiliations, what would work best would be very different indeed . So much of what I did is predicated on the BT universe timeline and what I have seen fielded in campaigns and what was or could be fielded from the TROs .

Railan Sradac

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #49 on: 11 February 2017, 21:45:57 »
I find Advanced and Experimental tech is good for improving the usefulness of lights. You can make them surprisingly tough with Hardened armour or repulse those pulse lasers with Reflective. Angel ECM with ECCM and Ghost Targets makes them tougher and an excellent utility player. I really love Chameleon LPS, as it provides the boosts of Stealth Armour but allows you to use electronics. Partial Wings allow extra jump movement at a low mass cost. And most importantly for me, it doesn't matter what platform TAG is on, because Arrow IV Homing is a great leveller.  ;D

I find light 'Mechs to actually be more useful in general than light vehicles, as they're functionally a lot tougher and retain their mobility (and thus their life) much better. I have a 5/7/5 35-ton 'Mech with Hardened armour, Angel+C3+TAG that always lives longer than you expect and is far more useful than the BV implies.

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #50 on: 13 February 2017, 14:59:27 »
My mercs mech forces are a solid pair of line companies.  No light mechs, what roles they would typically fill can be handled by either vehicles, VTOLs, infantry or the pair of medium skirmisher lances.  So whenever I salvaged a Wasp, Stinger, Javelin or other slower (6/9 or less) light in the 3060s it was sold as salvage or broken up for parts.  Simply they did not bring enough firepower or options to the battle to qualify for a cubicle on my dropships when I had something else that could do the job.

But then I found myself saddled with a rebel militia that was sending three lances of green Wasp, Stingers, a Hermes and pair of old Firestarters as part of a long range intercept.  They had the speed to get to the combat zone and be faster than the escort . . . plus it was also important to fulfilling the contract since it would help those greenies gain experience if I could ensure they saw action and survive.  Because anything dropped or crippled that far out would have to be abandoned though the mechwarrior might get picked up by some SAR.

Then it came to me . . . its like the Indians sitting on the top of a hill watching the settlers/cavalry march through their territory.  The question for the escort commander is, are the bug mechs you are seeing the only mechs in that direction or are there more hiding out of sight over that hill waiting for you to give chase?  Or if the head of your column starts taking fire and you spot those 3 mechs (where is the 4th?  is there a 4th?  mechs usually work as lances, so where is the 4th?) trailing the column . . . well, not everyone can move to the sound of the guns.  Some of the escorts have to honor the threat presented by those bug mechs . . . even if they do not come in range.

If you have VTOLs filling the scouting role of light 'Mechs, why aren't the VTOLs telling you whether those enemy light 'Mechs are a decoy or a true threat?

Also, why aren't VTOLs serving the patrol role of light 'Mechs to ensure that damaged 'Mechs get back to friendly lines?
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imperator

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #51 on: 14 February 2017, 02:46:18 »
If you have VTOLs filling the scouting role of light 'Mechs, why aren't the VTOLs telling you whether those enemy light 'Mechs are a decoy or a true threat?

Also, why aren't VTOLs serving the patrol role of light 'Mechs to ensure that damaged 'Mechs get back to friendly lines?

Flak rounds.  Lotsa Flak rounds for every AC2 or AC5( I say one out of four weapons or six weapons) 
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #52 on: 14 February 2017, 08:10:09 »
Railan Sradac's comments of higher tech making light mechs viable is true . But from what I have seen only in the Solaris VII arena which runs on very different economic plans than a field combat unit . I made a light mech for the Jade Falcon Stable Partial Wing ; Ferro Laminar Armor and Reinforced Internal structure and moved 8/12/10 . It was Armed with 2 ER Med Pulse lasers if it Jumped it could fire one if it ran it could fire both .  I called it the cockroach as it was tough to kill .  Nothing was as satisfying as it getting hit in the head with a Gauss Rifle in the arena and walking away . But it cost over 20 million C Bills which means I could by 5 major combat vehicles for that .  A balance should be struck bettween cost ; effectiveness ; replaceablitiy and maintainability .  Also you have to factor in what is the profit margin of a contract .  Can you lose 2 or 3  combat vehicles that cost under 4 million C Bills that you can replace quickly or lose 1 or 2 light mechs that you have to go into waiting ques to replace .  You have to have some standardization to develop a tactical doctrine . If you cannot maintain that standardization if losses constantly force  you to use whatever units come to hand as you cannot maintain a solid tactical doctrine .

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #53 on: 14 February 2017, 18:46:25 »
20 million is around a company of Urbanmechs.  Even seriously upgraded ones (say, 3/5/3, LB-10X, HPPC+cap, etc.).

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #54 on: 15 February 2017, 05:25:31 »
An Urban Mech is still a mech .  Any mech is not an attritien unit . The large numbers of Urban Mechs is a result of old stock piles more than manufacturing new ones . Even in an ERA in which new mech manufacturing becomes possible any mech is a complex machine with very tight tolerances so making them is SLOW .  The fluff text for the Bezerker says something like 12 a year . An Urban mech would likely be built in a larger facility and is smaller and cheaper so I figure more like 144 or so a year any combat vehicle would be at least an order of magnitude easier and faster to make .  So when you are figuring on ordering ques for a Successor State for literally hundreds of planets even with prioritizing planets within 30 LY of the boarder you are going to fall short with just mechs in a hot war situation any mech loss is not going to quickly replaced .  Some boarder planets do not  have the education base or infrastructure to maintain fusion engines outside of militia bases . Where ICE and Fuel Cell engines very well may be within the locals ability to maintain and make spare parts for .

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #55 on: 15 February 2017, 14:04:49 »
An Urban Mech is still a mech .  Any mech is not an attritien unit . The large numbers of Urban Mechs is a result of old stock piles more than manufacturing new ones . Even in an ERA in which new mech manufacturing becomes possible any mech is a complex machine with very tight tolerances so making them is SLOW .  The fluff text for the Bezerker says something like 12 a year . An Urban mech would likely be built in a larger facility and is smaller and cheaper so I figure more like 144 or so a year any combat vehicle would be at least an order of magnitude easier and faster to make .  So when you are figuring on ordering ques for a Successor State for literally hundreds of planets even with prioritizing planets within 30 LY of the boarder you are going to fall short with just mechs in a hot war situation any mech loss is not going to quickly replaced .  Some boarder planets do not  have the education base or infrastructure to maintain fusion engines outside of militia bases . Where ICE and Fuel Cell engines very well may be within the locals ability to maintain and make spare parts for .

Well, the problem is that we don't know how big the production line for the Berzerker was.  We don't know how many orders they had, either.  Building a brand new 100 ton mech has to be expensive, and governments may not be itching to place orders for an untested design that has never seen combat.  We don't know if the Berzerker's low production numbers are really representative of how quickly mechs are normally manufactured.

When the Inner Sphere was having production problems, they had problems with everything.  Armor, ammunition, basic weaponry, anything intro-tech was in short supply.  As a result, most of the stuff went to the mechs.  Once the Inner Sphere had recovered, everything became much more commonly available.

Nahuris

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #56 on: 16 February 2017, 01:30:07 »
Another part of the issue is that, in universe, the medium mech is the most common design. This includes units like the Cicada, Clint, and other less used mediums, such as the mentioned, Vulcan. From what I have read, Mediums are the most common, with lights being a very close second, and then Heavies, which are rare, and assaults which are very rare.... so rare, that sometimes they are held out of battles to preserve them.

Now, on the game table, the heavy is the most common design, with assaults liberally scattered among them, and mediums only used when there is a need for fast cav designs....... combined with smaller battlefields, so that those slower designs can get within range of each other within the current decade. Once that game goes that way, light mechs are at a disadvantage.... but that is what we are seeing on most tables.

I do, honestly, wish we had some better numbers on forces.....  or at least something like the class rating that Babylon 5 Wars had, where in order to have a certain unit, you had to take at least a certain number from this other list .....

Nahuris
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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #57 on: 16 February 2017, 05:46:04 »
You can only use the production numbers given .  I do presume that the Bezerker production line was the equivalent of a small factory module .  The way I have seen production numbers  small factory 1200 tons for highly complex , with advanced tech . A large factory ought to assemble 3X more .  An order of magnitude more for each level complexity less and another if you move or the Era moves the tech in it to tournament legal . An order of magnitude less for Experimental tech . On Solaris VII you get unique mechs with experimental tech like the Great Turtle a 100 ton quad with hardned armor and X-Pulse lasers IE ; that 1200 tons goes down to 120 tons which is one unique assault with spare parts . The Advanced tech speed reduction seems to simulate the production choke points that are so often the reason anything with experimental or advanced tech seems to get a units production abandoned . This is Clearly just an Approximation derived from the fluff text I have seen and seems to work well enough in the campaigns I have seen .  By extension it indicates choke points for experimental tech ,  for instance Angel ECM weighs 2 tons for a small factory making 120 tons means 60 units to put into things . You have a unit you want to build with Angel ECM in it you make less than 60 as you want replacements for already fielded units . As soon as the ERA progresses to make it advanced the production go to 600 units  and when it becomes tournament legal it goes to 6,000 for the same factory . If you want to graduate it somehow by using the A-F availability table instead go for it but it seems too number crunchy . An Approximation has been good enough for me in the past ; who you play with determines if they are OK with it or not . This is the best I have been able to do with the limited time I could ; in the games I have played . I am OK if someone posts something better . An Example a 40 ton mech in a large factory with tournament legal tech would churn out 900 mechs / year  , advanced tech 90 , experimental tech 9 .  The vast territory that the factions in battletech is responsible for defending would give quantity a priority over quality for some affiliations . Light mechs with the advent of TAG are just not armored enough to stand up a combat vehicle has few more armored locations so it is better in most but not all cases .

Gardan

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #58 on: 16 February 2017, 06:19:00 »
How I see it is that most light mechs are used mostly by militia and lower tier military units.

4th Succession Wars and Clan Wolf sourcebooks there are lot of defending regiments that don't display any kind of role in texts.
Hotspots give basic garrison force 1-3 companies of mechs in force that is size of 1-4 regiments of infantry with support elements.
Star League Infantry divisions had light mech brigade.

From these I deduct that those obsolete and low power units are indeed in great numbers out side of spotlights.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #59 on: 16 February 2017, 13:03:23 »
Battle Armor transport and support. a lance of Fireballs can carry six squads of IS Std at 9 assuming they have magnetic claws.  Do you want six squads of battle armor in your rear lines, that would be scary.

truetanker

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #60 on: 20 February 2017, 17:59:50 »
Do you want six squads of battle armor in your rear lines, that would be scary.

 >:D

Personal CHH Advanced Scout Star:

2- Anhur BA Transport ( 10 BA each )
2-Donar ( Recon and Standard )
Artic Cheetah-C
Kit Fox-S
Mongrel-A

Not only do we jump, we have a Nova Star here. More than enough ECM to spread around, fast combat drops and the ability to call for Artillery to boot. I've been know to drop the Mongrel for a pair of Huey or lately, a Huey AAA - Mars XL combo. (  }:) )

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JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #61 on: 21 February 2017, 00:43:46 »
... assaults which are very rare.... so rare, that sometimes they are held out of battles to preserve them.


That has less to do with their rarity and more with their speed. If you commit an assault to battle, you (in an in universe perspective) want to be pretty sure you're going to win the fight or that if you lose the enemy won't chase you, because if you have to retreat that assault isn't going to outrun the enemy. Most lights and mediums can run pretty well, even a good chunk of the heavies is fast enough to keep the range open. But assaults at best make low end heavy speed and very few have jump jets. Assaults mean win or lose big.

And of course, if you are sure of victory and do commit your assaults, and if the enemy has no vital reason to try to oppose you, they'll just run which means your assault still didn't fight a proper battle.

These factors don't really apply to the board game though, because the board game assumes balanced starting conditions, which any sane commander in universe would find insufficient to risk battle with.

SCC

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #62 on: 21 February 2017, 02:07:30 »
Most lights and mediums can run pretty well, even a good chunk of the heavies is fast enough to keep the range open. But assaults at best make low end heavy speed and very few have jump jets. Assaults mean win or lose big.
But on average they have to have the same speed, which doesn't actually make getting away that easy.

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #63 on: 21 February 2017, 16:38:23 »
That has less to do with their rarity and more with their speed. If you commit an assault to battle, you (in an in universe perspective) want to be pretty sure you're going to win the fight or that if you lose the enemy won't chase you, because if you have to retreat that assault isn't going to outrun the enemy. Most lights and mediums can run pretty well, even a good chunk of the heavies is fast enough to keep the range open. But assaults at best make low end heavy speed and very few have jump jets. Assaults mean win or lose big.

And of course, if you are sure of victory and do commit your assaults, and if the enemy has no vital reason to try to oppose you, they'll just run which means your assault still didn't fight a proper battle.

These factors don't really apply to the board game though, because the board game assumes balanced starting conditions, which any sane commander in universe would find insufficient to risk battle with.

I think that the average board game should generally represent an important turning point in the larger conflict, one that just so happens to be roughly balanced between the two sides.

Very few people want to play infantry platoon vs mech company.  It's boring.  But theoretically, that sort of encounter should happen a lot.  A tiny force gets steamrolled by a really big one.  Dismounted Mechwarrior Joe fights a Star of Elementals from the wreckage of his mech.  Those events should be very commonplace within the universe.  They just aren't fun to play out.

It's like D&D.  A party of low level characters are ambushed by some orcs.  It's a fun encounter.  Theoretically a party of 20th level characters should also get ambushed on occasion by half a dozen orcs.  But at that point it is just an exercise in dice rolling as you slaughter orcs, and isn't really fun anymore.  It's something the GM should just narrate instead.  "On the way to the dungeon, you are attacked 3 times by orc bandits.  You get this much gold from their bodies."

A Battletech game should be balanced because we play the game to have fun.  It's not realistic that every battle will be perfectly even, and they aren't.  Just the ones that we are paying attention to.  Those are the ones that matter.  Not every battle we play will decide the fate of the world, but each one is important to the unit participating in it.  Two Jenners chasing down a Wasp is not really important.  They should win, no problem.  Two Jenners seeing a Marauder in the distance is not important, they'll just run away.  But two Jenners going through a ravine, and on the other end a Shadow Hawk blocks their way, now that's something worth fighting out.

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #64 on: 21 February 2017, 16:52:03 »
But on average they have to have the same speed, which doesn't actually make getting away that easy.

I saw numbers somewhere that indicated that light mechs were about 30% of the mechs in the Inner Sphere.  Mediums were 40%, Heavies were 20%, and Assaults were 10%.

Now while individual designs may vary, Assaults (3025 era) tend to be 3/5 or 4/6.  Heavies tend to be 4/6 or 5/8.  Mediums tend to be between 4/6 and 6/9.  Lights are generally 6/9/6 to 8/12 (though there are a few 5/8s or even 4/6s).  In general, lights should be able to flee heavier mech classes fairly reliably.  Yes, you'll have medium mechs like the Assassin that can hunt down lighter, slower designs.  That's why they make really fast mediums.  But the lights can easily outrun that Hunchback, and most can outrun those Griffins and Wolverines.

Why not just use really fast mediums?  Because 30% of the mechs in the Inner Sphere are lights.  They're cheaper, they're commonly available, and you already have them.  They do the job well enough that it isn't worth replacing them with a heavier, more expensive design.  Besides, you really need most of your mediums to do other duties.  Sometimes they have to stand up to heavies for a while.  And the really fast ones are not really good at that.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #65 on: 23 February 2017, 05:29:12 »
A lot of people use fast mediums . The Cicada the most popular one goes 8/12 and some models have a jump of 8 . The 3A model would be just about perfect if they got rid of the ER PPC and replaced it with a Snub Nosed version and a double heat sink and stealth armor ; maybe 2 light PPCs depending on preference . Fast mediums tend to be light on armor but a light mech is lighter still . The arguments about speed and units facing each other at the point of contact is how objective raids succeed so lights may have a place in both attack and defense .  For any other situation I just do not see them as a cost effective unit 3+ million C-Bill Light mech VS a 3 + C Bill medium Combat Vehicle  that is easier for a militia to maintain and crew just makes more sense . As soon as the mech size moves up to medium the Combat vehicles stops looking attractive and heavy and assault mechs rule .

Sacamano

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Some of the functions for light Mechs:
1. Scouting
2. Electronic warfare
3. Infantry and Vehicle support
4. Patrol

truetanker

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Most people forget that a Light is best to use as a stop gap measure until heavier or better armed units arrive. Best part is harass, feint and simply a present show of arms. Would you rather face a Company of Infantry or a Lance of Medium weight tanks or a single Bug Mech? That can go anywhere?

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Daryk

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Truetanker, I think you captured the essence of the issue perfectly!  BZ! O0

SCC

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Best on-tabletop use I can think of right now is load a light 'Mech up with vehicle flamers and coolant ammo and have it follow along behind your assault 'Mechs, keeping them cool

Kovax

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The Light 'Mech is built for the same reason 20th Century navies built a lot more Destroyers and Light Cruisers than Heavy Cruisers or Battleships.  If a Destroyer is adequate for 90% of the tasks, why spend the money for a Battleship to do the same job?  When that other 10% happens, the Destroyer is fast enough to run away until a real Battleship can get there to deal with the problem.

A Light 'Mech has the versatility to perform in circumstances where a vehicle is at a disadvantage, or totally incapable of operating.  When a vehicle can perform the job, you send a vehicle; when it can't, you've often got a Light 'Mech that can.  When the Light 'Mech isn't enough, you sent a bigger 'Mech, and it then boils down to who sends the most and/or the biggest 'Mechs to the scene first.

Unlike in the typical "battlefield-only" game, there are peripheral functions behind the lines that are not represented on the table, such as logistics, command, and support personnel and equipment.  Light 'Mechs would often be employed in hit-and-run raiding against those supporting assets, rather than trying to stand toe-to-toe against heavier combat units on and around the battle line.  Since those assets are not represented on the board, there's a lot less of any importance for a light 'Mech to do.  When the map is the size of a postage stamp, there's simply not enough room to make speed and maneuverability viable alternatives to armor and firepower.

The problem is not with the Light 'Mech, it's with the limited representation of battle as a purely local and static situation.