Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest

[Colt Ward]

My mercs mech forces are a solid pair of line companies.  No light mechs, what roles they would typically fill can be handled by either vehicles, VTOLs, infantry or the pair of medium skirmisher lances.  So whenever I salvaged a Wasp, Stinger, Javelin or other slower (6/9 or less) light in the 3060s it was sold as salvage or broken up for parts.  Simply they did not bring enough firepower or options to the battle to qualify for a cubicle on my dropships when I had something else that could do the job.

But then I found myself saddled with a rebel militia that was sending three lances of green Wasp, Stingers, a Hermes and pair of old Firestarters as part of a long range intercept.  They had the speed to get to the combat zone and be faster than the escort . . . plus it was also important to fulfilling the contract since it would help those greenies gain experience if I could ensure they saw action and survive.  Because anything dropped or crippled that far out would have to be abandoned though the mechwarrior might get picked up by some SAR.

Then it came to me . . . its like the Indians sitting on the top of a hill watching the settlers/cavalry march through their territory.  The question for the escort commander is, are the bug mechs you are seeing the only mechs in that direction or are there more hiding out of sight over that hill waiting for you to give chase?  Or if the head of your column starts taking fire and you spot those 3 mechs (where is the 4th?  is there a 4th?  mechs usually work as lances, so where is the 4th?) trailing the column . . . well, not everyone can move to the sound of the guns.  Some of the escorts have to honor the threat presented by those bug mechs . . . even if they do not come in range.

Unfortunately with our table top games where everything is displayed, it is one of those 'fog of war' situations we just do not see.

The same situation would apply to a combat line, if you suddenly spotted bug mechs as the outriders of a possible flanking attempt . . . do you turn the line or shift your reserve to protect that flank?  If its not real that can easily push you out of a strong defensive/offensive position or commit that reserve prematurely when it would be needed moments later.

This can become especially important when your support elements are trailing closely behind the forward lines.  If your pickets start encountering bugs on one flank during intermitten contact on your line, are they trying to work around to damage your HQ, ammo or repair elements?  or cut your lines of communication back to those elements?  A Thunderbolt retreating along a road to a repair site missing half its torso would not find it pleasant to run into a lance of Stingers/Wasps.

[Sabelkatten]

Arguably, the problem is that many (most?) canon light mechs are very badly designed. I get quite a lot of mileage out of slower lights.

As to replacing the with other types of units, that mostly depends on where you're using them, and whether you can bring all the alternatives you need. After all, a jumping mech will do most anywhere except the sea or inside buildings (if you want them intact), you'll need a bunch of other units to match that.

[vidar]

I have found that if boards get larger and tech lower those slower lights work just fine.  If your fighting set peice or stand up battles they are not really useful, but as having enough durability and fire power to hit the things that only get light vees and infantry they are fast enough.  Think of them not as your line units but as the out riders raiding the country side.  The Mechs make them tough enough to limp home where vees would fail to return.  Also what era are you playing in? 

[Col Toda]

I gave up on light mechs in favor of Combat vehicles as well .  The only place for a light mech from what I can see is Solaris VII  which works on a  different economic model so the 21 million C bill light can happen . For combat I use light vehicles for the roles light do .

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If you do scenarios rather than a demolition derby with mechs, lights can come into their own.

If your game is nothing more than last mech standing, obviously lights won't compete with heavies.

[JenniferinaMAD]

Light mechs have suffered a fair bit with the tech creep, I think. XL engines mean bigger meks can achieve greater practical speeds, while lights doing the same tend to land in the gap between a +4tmm and +5tmm and thus gain less defence.
At the same time, weapons ranges and accuracies increased across the board while the bigger weapons lost or suffered less from minimum ranges. This means lights have a harder time hitting an advantageous range spot.

Lights with good jump jets still provide excellent mobility compared to vehicles, but if you can afford medium mechs that do the same, the lights lose.

[Col Toda]

I never said a good light mech could not be made it can . It just costs 3 X the space and 4 X as much as attrition combat vehicles . Mechs are not attrition units and are far harder to repair and replace. Any light with stealth armor 2 light PPCs or 1 Snub Nosed PPC can be felt . Just costs a lot and only the Cap Con could keep it in armor easily . Other approaches work as well or better tactically but not economically . As I said that 150 ton mech bay could be 3 light vehicle bays so 3 - 50ton hover tanks or 30 ton VTOLs
 

[Kovax]

In 3025, with Regular and Green pilots on both sides, Lights could provide effective support on the battlefield, given enough room to maneuver.

In 3050+, with Veteran and Elite pilots on the table, Lights simply don't survive an encounter.  In that case, vehicles can do most of the same job for a lot less expense, while mediums can be modified to fill the other roles and survive.

[JenniferinaMAD]

As I said that 150 ton mech bay could be 3 light vehicle bays so 3 - 50ton hover tanks or 30 ton VTOLs

That is true, but vehicles lack the key advantage of mechs: flexibility.

VTOLs can't fly in vacuum. Hovers can't traverse woods and steep inclines. Wheeled and tracked vehicles can't cross rivers without major effort. Jumping mechs can maintain full or at least near full speed no matter the terrain or weather conditions.

When defending a world, you can match vehicle to environment and get the most out of your cheaper units. When attacking, relying on vehicles will cost you in adaptability once your plan makes contact with the enemy. And if you do win and want to move on to the next world, a vehicle force would likely have to be reorganised thoroughly to maintain the suitable terrain aptitude. (Eg you brought the VTOLs to conquer the Forest Moon of Endor, but the next world is Stormion IV, the hurricane resort...)

[Colt Ward]

Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.

[JenniferinaMAD]

Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.

As you said, you're looking to use campaign factors to affect one off board games. That just doesn't really work all that well.

Any game is by necessity an incomplete, and partially abstracted, simulation. And like all table top wargames, battletech has imposed on it by real world necessity the board edge. Anything beyond the board edge, isn't part of the game simulation, and that does affect how the simulation plays out.

The closest suggestion I have for what you're looking to do is double blind, though outside of megaMek that is a complicated way to play a complicated game.
And just an aside, how do your observations apply to bug mechs in a way they don't apply to vehicles? Wouldn't the base problem of yours (that light mechs don't compare well enough to light vees) persist in this environment as little changed to takes advantage of a mech's innate traits?

[vidar]

Those other paragraphs are exactly what I am talking about, the use of light mech to hit "softer" targets and survive fire or terrain that would cripple vees. And yes thinking of the as Victorian light cavalry is a very good idea.

[StoneRhino]

Honestly wondering if anyone read beyond the 1st paragraph.

They did. One of the problems with vehicles, especially with the standard TW rules is just how easily they are immobilized. That alone will boost the value of a light mech as a scout over any ground vehicle. Against a vtol it depends on what is going on, but the light mech with jumpjets can always use cover while the vtol cannot.

As for firepower, later era lights have a lot more then the older versions. They probably gained more on average then the higher weight classes. Then again if you are using light mechs for firepower then you're doing it wrong. As for options its the same as any vehicle,  but the additional mobility allows them to get where vehicles run into problems.

What is amusing is that the same issue could be made of heavier mechs since there are many vehicles that can deal just as much damage as a mech of the same weight class, but will cost less then the mech while still offering the same options.

For your games though it seems it comes down to space in the dropship and that really is the problem as it shapes the view of units. If you have 4 mech slots and 2 vehicle slots then that informs your decision far more then actual performance. However, it depends upon the vehicle slots and what they can accommodate as I would suggest that an Alacorn would be far better then a Condor hover, and I would instead use a Spider as my scout. I believe you would get better results if you mentioned what your dropship is capable of carrying and people could examine the information from a similar perspective as your own. O0

[Kovax]

The other point to consider is that a dropship can carry cargo.  Not everything needs to be in 'Mech cubicles or vehicle bays, only the units needed for rapid deployment.  Carry a 20 ton scout 'Mech as cargo, spend the time unloading it and taking it out of mothballs, and several hours later in the day you've got your scout, without giving up three 50 ton vehicle bays or bumping a 75 ton Heavy 'Mech from the roster.

[Demon55]

I use light mechs (almost always with jump jets) because: they are harder to immobilize than vehicles (especially hover tanks and VTOLs) when used as scouts.  They can add flexibility to the unit even though they need to be used conservatively in most cases.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Logistics is a good point.

It's cheaper to transport the personnel required to put a 20 mech in combat than it does a 20 ton tank.  If you're going to conduct operations on a world other than your home garrison, light mechs have a tangible logistical advantage.  Whatvever more tonnage of expendibles like food/water/air a multi-person tank crew requires than a single mechwarrior does, that's dropship cargo tonnage saved for ammo, parts, or even more food/water/air.

[snewsom2997]

Use the 35 tonners. I tend to get the most life out of those. Short of a Heavy Gauss or a AC/20 they will hold up longer. Focus on Laser Heavy Designs, Medium Laser in Particular.

The Cougar, Adder, Jenner, Wolfhound and Ostscout are Prime Examples of what I am taking about

[Breetai]

I've had success running pure combat lights in 3025 campaigns, namely with a full lance of modified Hussars that dropped the speed to 8/12, but used all of the tonnage gained on armour, making them able to absorb multiple shots from heavier weapons. The key was to hide them in reserve until the battle was fully committed, and only then bring them out and flank. Being in the position where you need to either retreat from the main battle line and potentially expose your rear to it, or else face the prospect of four Large Lasers constantly firing at your rear arc, is a prospect that even a Banshee-S has a difficult time dealing with.

[JenniferinaMAD]

The other point to consider is that a dropship can carry cargo.  Not everything needs to be in 'Mech cubicles or vehicle bays, only the units needed for rapid deployment.  Carry a 20 ton scout 'Mech as cargo, spend the time unloading it and taking it out of mothballs, and several hours later in the day you've got your scout, without giving up three 50 ton vehicle bays or bumping a 75 ton Heavy 'Mech from the roster.

That works fine for second and later waves, but one of the first things the first wave will likely want up and running right after landing (or even before with orbital drops) is scouts and skirmishers so that the heavier machines will know where to intercept any counterattacks before they get close enough to fire on the dropship.
You could use ASFs initially, but I don't think they'll last the full 8 hours it takes to unmothball a unit (according to MekHQ, is that right?), before refuelling/maintenance and pilot fatigue will rip some holes into your defensive screen.

[Colt Ward]

While this is straying . . . yeah, a 6/9/6 bug playing scout or recon is not going to last those 8 hours either because if it does get pushed most mediums out there will be able to chase it down well with in that time frame.  But I was not talking about using vehicles, medium mechs or air assets for the recon . . . rather their use in feints & ruses- while the aforementioned DB makes it much easier I think hidden units would work as well and is much easier to use on a table.

[SCC]

A vehicle, with multiple crew members, is probably more suited to 8 hour patrols then any 'Mech. Also so few light 'Mechs have to the long range weaponry you'd put on such a design. Finally a vehicle is a bit easier to hide under cameo netting then a 'Mech, at least without lying it down.

[Orcmaul]

I'm inferring from various statements that suggest fast non-jumping mechs and light vehicles are preferred over jumping mechs like stingers, wasps, and javelins that you haven't fought many battles in the woods or in hilly terrain.  Changing elevation repeatedly while running in and out of woods eats up ground MPs quickly.  When there's a fair amount of woods scattered around the board you can jump from woods hex to woods hex getting close to the enemy when initiative and position favor you or retreating when the situation is against you.  With a constant +4 or better to hit rolls even if you aren't landing many hits you are tying up resources chasing a mech that's worth approximately 300 BV for stingers and wasps.  Tracked vehicles can attempt to pursue them into woods but suffer even more from elevation changes and heavy woods and steep hills (2+ levels) are going to limit your paths.  Also they can kick heavier mechs that try to hide in woods and force PSRs.  In summary they are situationally annoying.

I fought a recon raid battle today where I did exactly this against a lance of heavies.  I completed the sneak and peak victory conditions (get to opponent's board edge and spend 2 turns not moving then return to own board edge) and also downed a guillotine (back shot ammo crit) with a reinforced lance of a firestarter mirage, javelin, wasp, stinger, and locust. 

VTOLs might have the move mods but they don't have the durability.  A warrior VTOL can take one medium laser to any side but the next hit kills it and unless you hide behind hills and never miss PSRs and slip into terrain you're exposed to a lot more possible fire.  In the battle above the only major damage I sustained was my stinger lost an arm but was able to jump away and retreat off the board. 

You also mentioned that you are recovering lots of light mech salvage so you'll likely always have a rich supply of spare parts.  The stinger above returned to my employer's dropships where I had two technical teams mount an arm I'd salvaged in a previous contract, replace all of the components and armor, and reload the machine guns in 3 hours.  It would have taken longer to do it in field conditions but that stinger could easily be a less than 12 hour turnaround as long as you've got the parts and manpower.

Jumpy lights are not the killiest units ever but when used to harass and annoy an enemy in rough terrain they are cost effective and durable. 

[Colt Ward]

I'm inferring from various statements that suggest fast non-jumping mechs and light vehicles are preferred over jumping mechs like stingers, wasps, and javelins that you haven't fought many battles in the woods or in hilly terrain.  Changing elevation repeatedly while running in and out of woods eats up ground MPs quickly.  When there's a fair amount of woods scattered around the board you can jump from woods hex to woods hex getting close to the enemy when initiative and position favor you or retreating when the situation is against you.

When the job is to scout, recon or be a picket on patrol . . . you do not want to light off a fusion flare while moving.  Sort of hard to sneak up on anyone or go unobserved.

[JenniferinaMAD]

That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.

Lights shine at this level of strategy, which isn't represented in most board games because of the aforementioned end of simulation at the board edge, but also because as a game, the forces are inherently assumed to be balanced. The job of a recon unit is to find unbalanced targets your forces can roflstomp in what most would find quite an uninteresting game if played out.

[Colt Ward]

Seems he is talking about optimization in combat though I will grant your post does have a point about using them for misdirection if an enemy cannot see over that hill.

[Orcmaul]

When the job is to scout, recon or be a picket on patrol . . . you do not want to light off a fusion flare while moving.  Sort of hard to sneak up on anyone or go unobserved.

I find it unlikely anyone is going to tabletop a stealth recon scenario with no fighting in it.  I mean you could with plenty of double blind and sensor simulation but should you? 

Jump jets use heated atmosphere as reaction mass (Tech Manual p38-39).  Brief thermal emission?  Sure.  Heat sensors have a combat range of 27 hexes (Tacops p222).  Heavy woods also reduces the effective range of a variety of sensors.  They might detect you if you were within a mapsheet or two of them. 

When doing stealth recon you wouldn't need to be dodging and weaving so jumping or even running/flanking ground movement would be counterproductive.  The dust cloud from a ground vehicle doing 150kph is not stealthy either.  Stealth recon probably involves finding a decent hide and dialing your reactor down as low as you can get it and still keep your passive sensors running. 

Now the actual scenario you'll see on the tabletop is a recon raid where engaging the enemy is part of the recon.  During that time you may also infiltrate some units behind their lines using the recon raid as a distraction.  With a whole packet of camouflaged (unless you rock nascar paint on scout mechs) stingers and wasps jumping around causing utter chaos would anyone notice if one of them broke contact and retreated off of the enemy side of the board to go spot for artillery and air strikes in the rear?

I'm just trying to strike a balance between theoretical/rp and tabletop. 

[Col Toda]

The advent of Pulse Lasers with or with out Targeting Computers .  AES with anything . Or Precision AC ammo all reduce a light mechs move penalties . I have designed a 50 ton hover tank that can take 60 pts to the turret and front Armor ,  It can move bettween hull down positions 7 hexes apart and go hull down for a +5 defensive modifier .  So on the defensive I can get something that can take more damage and get as good as a light with an XL engine and MASC and or Supercharger defensive value . On offensive I can bring a hover tank with a TAG ; LMG Array /4 ; and Light AC/5 with Precision Ammo to range 2 get a + 3 or +4 movement modifier and have enough Armor to handle getting hit by an AC 20 if need be at any location . Yes it still suffers Motive Critical but that the price of doing business . I can Carry 3 of these tanks in the space I would carry 1 locust  . Unlike a light mech I get the option of choosing to charge to take out a mechs legs in battle ( A vehicle can only hit the legs .)

[Daryk]

That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.

Lights shine at this level of strategy, which isn't represented in most board games because of the aforementioned end of simulation at the board edge, but also because as a game, the forces are inherently assumed to be balanced. The job of a recon unit is to find unbalanced targets your forces can roflstomp in what most would find quite an uninteresting game if played out.

I like the cut of your jib... O0

[Colt Ward]

Hmm . . . I actually like that and will have to see how hard that would be to add in as a table top game . . .

3 scout teams, all moving about the board obviously checking your defensive approaches.  The attack force is behind one of them and can come on the board of any of the 3 based on their reports . . .

Defender needs to keep the scouts away without revealing too much of their position or getting pulled out of position chasing the scouts.

Turn X, the attacker main body arrives- either releasing emcon to go into the attack or they arrive via a combat drop but the location is determined they arrive is based on the scout forces.  It then shifts over into your typical objective raid attack, but scouts positioned the 'raid.'

[Kovax]

If you require the entry point to be in the scouted path of a recon team, or a drop point to be targeted to within some short distance of a recon team (and then arrive a couple of turns later), that makes their report and presence more important.

Sure, Col Toda, or most other players with any experience at the game, can design a 50 ton vehicle which will out-perform a 20 ton 'Mech.  You can generally do a lot more with customs than with canon designs.  The point is, you can carry five 20 ton 'Mechs as cargo, instead of only two of those 50 ton custom vehicles, and the total crew requirements for those vehicles (3 men each) will actually exceed that of the 'Mechs by a man, although the slightly higher tech hour requirements of the extra 'Mechs versus a smaller number of heavier class vehicles will probably even it back out again.  The only down side is that you'll need to deploy at least a couple of recon units ('Mechs or vehicles) at the start, for the couple of hours until those "bugs" are unloaded and prepped for action.  In that case, a fast Medium 'Mech (like a PXH) probably makes more sense for an initial recon asset, due to its greater survivability and concentration of firepower.

If your only concern is firepower on a flat mapsheet, the vehicles will bring more guns to the table for the transport tonnage and cost.  If you're worried about that line of woods blocking hover and wheeled vehicles, hilly terrain dropping all vehicle speeds to a crawl, or a shallow river being a problem for tracked and wheeled, and recon ability is more important than firepower, the 'Mechs are likely to be the better answer in more situations.