Author Topic: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?  (Read 3171 times)

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« on: 04 November 2023, 09:21:47 »
I just think about this, although lacks a detail but only an idea. What about the alternative model of K-F drive, which can charge faster without any malfunction? Such as, able to be fully charged about 50~70% time of the normal K-F drive, whatever it's from the solar cell of the jump sail or direct connection with the space station. If you want to recharge the other ships by its own battery, its total energy is the same percent with the time to fully charged; so if a standard K-F drive needs 100 energy, it would needs 50~70 instead. That's the secret of the fast charge - you don't need to charge more to jump

I think that the feasible drawback is the reduced maximum jump distance, such as only able to jump 33% to 46.2% distance, making effectively 2/3(that's not final, though) distance per hour than the standard K-F drive. It is not so bad to reduce the effective travel time per distance by a half of the normal K-F driver too. Perhaps there would be an additional drawback such as not compatible with a Lithium Fusion Battery.

I don't think about the others but most of the other features would be better to leave as same with the standard one. It would be made as compact version(of warships), and will have the same drawbacks.

I don't think that it would be useful for the most people, but maybe someone like pirates, or warship fleet with local defenders(unlikely but that's only a presumption), are think about to have one on their jumpships.

So is there any better idea for this?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #1 on: 04 November 2023, 10:06:30 »
I do wish energy storage batteries were not 100,000 tons so they could be mounted on dropships/modular jump capable space stations in order to fast charge a jumpship's engine. If there was a 50kt version it might be worth it for Leviathans and Monoliths to carry a supercharger onboard.

You can already super fast charge a jumpship but you must pass a control roll to see whether or not you do it properly. Thus only highly trained and experienced or desperate crews should attempt to do it because although the chance of drive damage is low KF drive integrity takes forever to repair. The base rate for a 100 hour charge (compared to the 175 norm) is (Piloting + 2) 7 but we all know how statistics often fail us when we need them the most. That said a 6 or 5 are reasonable good odds for excellent crews.

Retry

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #2 on: 04 November 2023, 23:28:50 »
I do wish energy storage batteries were not 100,000 tons so they could be mounted on dropships/modular jump capable space stations in order to fast charge a jumpship's engine. If there was a 50kt version it might be worth it for Leviathans and Monoliths to carry a supercharger onboard.
I'm quite confident that is precisely why ESBs are 100kt.  The significant efficiency improvements for Jump transit would make dedicating a dropship slot for larger regular Jumpships, and especially Warships, practically mandatory.

Though I'm pretty sure you could do something similar anyways, by putting a small ESB space station slightly more than 100 kt and putting it in a perfectly-sized "repair bay", since you can jump with those bays occupied as long as the bay isn't holding a KF drive equipped unit (IOW other Jumpships/Warships).

idea weenie

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #3 on: 05 November 2023, 01:56:58 »
I do wish energy storage batteries were not 100,000 tons so they could be mounted on dropships/modular jump capable space stations in order to fast charge a jumpship's engine. If there was a 50kt version it might be worth it for Leviathans and Monoliths to carry a supercharger onboard.

You can already super fast charge a jumpship but you must pass a control roll to see whether or not you do it properly. Thus only highly trained and experienced or desperate crews should attempt to do it because although the chance of drive damage is low KF drive integrity takes forever to repair. The base rate for a 100 hour charge (compared to the 175 norm) is (Piloting + 2) 7 but we all know how statistics often fail us when we need them the most. That said a 6 or 5 are reasonable good odds for excellent crews.

Or split it among two 50kt structures?  You'd use up two Dropship Collars, but the ability to jump using the Energy Storage Battery's (ESBs) bonus to jump charge would be useful.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #4 on: 05 November 2023, 04:16:58 »
I do wish energy storage batteries were not 100,000 tons so they could be mounted on dropships/modular jump capable space stations in order to fast charge a jumpship's engine. If there was a 50kt version it might be worth it for Leviathans and Monoliths to carry a supercharger onboard.

You can already super fast charge a jumpship but you must pass a control roll to see whether or not you do it properly. Thus only highly trained and experienced or desperate crews should attempt to do it because although the chance of drive damage is low KF drive integrity takes forever to repair. The base rate for a 100 hour charge (compared to the 175 norm) is (Piloting + 2) 7 but we all know how statistics often fail us when we need them the most. That said a 6 or 5 are reasonable good odds for excellent crews.

The goal is allows to make the jump quicker, and also as stable as the normal K-F drive, while reduced maximum jump distance is not an issue at all. Such as, if a nation or the province have several systems on the close distance with each others, say, about 5 to 10 LY at most, that you don't need to jump farther but you do need to jump a lot, such as travel, transport, or send the warships to aid the defenders.

Also maybe pirates are interested in this, for jumping out quickly would be important - as long as they cannot have a lithium fusion battery, or they simply make the second jump as soon as they got their ground force. It is still possible that their travel time from the jumpship, the destination planet and return to the jumpship would be enough to fully charge a normal K-F driver, though, and they may will if they only use the standard jump point, but able to jump quicker without malfunction makes them to hide easier.

Mechanis

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #5 on: 05 November 2023, 10:55:23 »
This technology actually canonically exists; one of the Deep Periphery states has it. There's just no stats for it because it's a Deep Periphery state whose last contact with the Inner Sphere was when ComStar was poking around out there.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #6 on: 06 November 2023, 03:44:02 »
That... is actually make me surprised. Is it their own creation? Else will the older design of K-F drive does needs fewer energy to jump?

An another thing to consider is, 'why' it needs to take the same time to charge, regardless of the size of drive. It was already explained that a K-F drive needs at least 176 hours to fully charged if you don't want to damaging it. Then, although the energy spent won't be 1:1 ratio with the mass, it is possible that you do need to put at least some degree of energy to fire the drive. In this case perhaps it is impossible to reduce the time of safe charge by around 70~80%, for even if you don't need that much energy you can't gain enough power unless you have put that much energy.

Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #7 on: 06 November 2023, 19:30:36 »
I always assumed it was the size and duration of the wormhole that mattered, but that's just me... ;)

Mechanis

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #8 on: 10 November 2023, 02:10:28 »
That... is actually make me surprised. Is it their own creation? Else will the older design of K-F drive does needs fewer energy to jump?

An another thing to consider is, 'why' it needs to take the same time to charge, regardless of the size of drive. It was already explained that a K-F drive needs at least 176 hours to fully charged if you don't want to damaging it. Then, although the energy spent won't be 1:1 ratio with the mass, it is possible that you do need to put at least some degree of energy to fire the drive. In this case perhaps it is impossible to reduce the time of safe charge by around 70~80%, for even if you don't need that much energy you can't gain enough power unless you have put that much energy.
TLDR version, they figured out how to do 100% reliable hot-charging (fast charging the core from the ship's reactor rather than a sail's trickle charge), letting them jump every few hours rather than having to wait weeks.
How this was actually done isn't explained.

Edit: also, drive charge time does vary somewhat depending on the spectra/intensity of the star and the distance to the ship; and of course there's always hot-charging. So it's not that you can't charge faster, it's that doing so is either impractical or risky (a really good crew with a Primitive Core that's in good condition can hot-charge reasonably safely, which is good because some of the things that use those don't have sails, but it's more risky for Standard Core ships)
« Last Edit: 10 November 2023, 02:29:40 by Mechanis »

idea weenie

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #9 on: 10 November 2023, 11:10:58 »
I'd like an option for augmented charging.  I.e. if the local star has a 300-hr recharge time and you want to jump again in 180 hours, then those extra 120 hours have to come from the ship's engine (or another external source).  So calculate the fuel needed to charge from just the engine, and multiply that by 120/300 (40%).

You'd have similar tech for reducing the size of an Energy Storage Battery from 100 ktons to smaller.  Take the size of the mini-ESB, divide that by 100 ktons, and that is the max that a drive recharge time can be reduced (FRD for ESB benefit).  So a 50 kton ESB can reduce charge time by up to 50%, turning that 300-hr star into a 150-hr recharge, but since you are charging faster than the safe limit you better hope the +1 benefit helps.  If the mini-ESB had been 49,999 tons then there wouldn't have been a benefit (you need a 100 kton ESB for the +2 bonus, a 50kton+ only gets you a +1 benefit).

Note that this is up to the mini-ESB %.  So the 300-hr star could be reduced to 150 hours if the mini-ESB is used at full benefit, or the mini-ESB could be used at 40% capacity to fully charge the core in 180 hours.  A Warship might just take a 25 kton ESB to cut recharge times by up to 25%, turning that 300-hr star into 225 hours.  The main engine could then be used to reduce it from 225 hours to 180 hours, meaning the engine used 45/300 = 15% of its normal amount.


The other fun idea might be having a larger Jump Sail.  A sail massing twice as much as normal can recharge in half the time, but you still have the penalties for fast-charging.  For example if you have a sail that is 3* the size then you could potentially recharge 3* faster turning that 300-hr star into a 100-hr star, but you get fast-charge penalties for 100-hrs of charging.  If you step down the charge rate to 180 hrs then you get no penalties.



For faster charging, this could be a better cooling set up for the Jump Core, or a different crystal formation that can handle higher inputs.  This will give the faction a much higher strategic speed compared to other groups, giving them a shipping advantage as their ships can jump more often if they have the power.  If the drive can recharge safely in 150 hours but the local star is 300 hours, you need more than the local star can provide normally.  Time to recharge at a pirate point, use a larger sail, burn fuel to engine charge, or something else.
« Last Edit: 10 November 2023, 23:07:05 by idea weenie »

DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #10 on: 10 November 2023, 23:00:51 »
So I always assumed that 'charging', from the in universe description, is actually cooling the reactor and all the laymen talking about sails and such are just misinformed.  The jump sail's listed charge time does not work at all for solar collection / star intensity as the charge time would indicate, but that same black sail would work as a fantastic radiator.  We know jumping causes a massive IR spike (heat) and we know that cooling with a sail would work well in the timeframe to get rid of that heat.  'Charging' from the engine to vent heat takes so much fuel due to how expensive it is to move heat in space--gotta do it slow to not melt the reactor and a ton of energy is wasted dealing with heat going where it sint supposed to be.  A recharge station can charge so fast because they have a massive heat pool they can lend to keep the core safe, which they nèed to radiate away later.  Lithium fusion batteries can operate at higher temps, so you can get 2 uses out before needing to cool off.

Anyway, if you think the cooling method has merit then a fast charge high heat capacity battery with less range/total power compared to lithium batteries is a cool thing.  We have several real life examples of batteries that trade total power for faster charging without exploding.  Id probably use all the rules for size and cost of lithium batteries, but instead of 2 jumps you get 1 jump and charge in half the time.  Would be great for high fuel fast couriers.

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #11 on: 11 November 2023, 00:19:59 »
Cooling doesn't work as a premise when burning fuel or pulling power from a secondary battery speeds up the process.
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DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #12 on: 11 November 2023, 01:56:35 »
Cooling doesn't work as a premise when burning fuel or pulling power from a secondary battery speeds up the process.
So I mention that already.  Charging with the fusion engine burns lots of fuel--far far greater then the energy produced by a solar sail. This makes sense if the fuel is being burned to shunt heat.  Same with a battery, a lithium fusion battery lets you jump 2 times--makes sense its a heat related limit as you can't install 2 lithium fusion batteries to jump 3x.  Thus its not/cant be a power issue, the limitation must be something else.  I like heat, as its a real thing and makes sense.  If it was "just" power, I should be able to mount extra batteries and jump 4,5, 10 times in a warship as the battery tonnage is negligible.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2023, 01:59:36 by DevianID »

Retry

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #13 on: 11 November 2023, 10:14:23 »
The solar sail is explicitly a solar power collector, not a radiator.  If the required function was cooling rather than energy collection, the time-to-charge function would be inverted to how it currently works, with being at more powerful stars taking more time to cool due to the incoming solar radiation introducing a bit of heat, and the fastest way to charge the drive via sail/radiator would be well in deep space to minimize the amount of incoming radiation (in reality you can't charge it there via sails, you'd have to use fuel).

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #14 on: 11 November 2023, 14:10:47 »
So I mention that already.  Charging with the fusion engine burns lots of fuel--far far greater then the energy produced by a solar sail. This makes sense if the fuel is being burned to shunt heat.  Same with a battery, a lithium fusion battery lets you jump 2 times--makes sense its a heat related limit as you can't install 2 lithium fusion batteries to jump 3x.  Thus its not/cant be a power issue, the limitation must be something else.  I like heat, as its a real thing and makes sense.  If it was "just" power, I should be able to mount extra batteries and jump 4,5, 10 times in a warship as the battery tonnage is negligible.

Nope, you don't generate Heat to dispose of it.  That is illogical.  That's like saying you're going to rev your engine in Park so the A/C moves faster.  Burning Fuel generates Heat, not expels it.

It still doesn't work when one considers a fresh Jump Ship still needs that same Charge up time to do the initial Jump.  The length of Jump Core Charging length is directly tied to the sensitivity of the equipment.  A Jump Ship can charge its Core within hours of arrival, it just vastly increases the odds of a MisJump.

If you want to tie it to the circuitry being too sensitive to handle the heat load of that amount of energy going through its circuits, that's fine, and would make sense, but the time between Jumps has no relation to the amount of Heat the Jump makes.

And as mentioned by Retry, it's still listed as a solar sail, not a solar radiator.  In addition, you'd want the sail pointed AWAY from the star to maximize your radiating area and capacity instead towards another radiating source.
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idea weenie

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #15 on: 11 November 2023, 16:56:55 »
Nope, you don't generate Heat to dispose of it.  That is illogical.  That's like saying you're going to rev your engine in Park so the A/C moves faster.  Burning Fuel generates Heat, not expels it.

I think he meant that the heated hydrogen was being vented outside the ship, open-cycle cooling.  Burning the hydrogen to produce electricity to charge the KF Core would be a small demand on the hydrogen being used.

You try to concentrate some heat from the KF Core in a location, transfer that heat to some hydrogen gas, and vent that heated gas.  The fun part is that all of these cooling steps produce their own heat, which you have to keep isolated from the core, meaning more hydrogen gas being vented, etc.

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #16 on: 11 November 2023, 21:31:11 »
I think he meant that the heated hydrogen was being vented outside the ship, open-cycle cooling.  Burning the hydrogen to produce electricity to charge the KF Core would be a small demand on the hydrogen being used.

You try to concentrate some heat from the KF Core in a location, transfer that heat to some hydrogen gas, and vent that heated gas.  The fun part is that all of these cooling steps produce their own heat, which you have to keep isolated from the core, meaning more hydrogen gas being vented, etc.

Except that is not how it is described at all.  The phrases "Recharge from the Fusion Engines" and "Dump fuel to cool the Core" are not synonymous.

In addition, this is volatile fuel.  Heating something that blows up while it is still within your ship is generally considered A Bad Idea.
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DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #17 on: 11 November 2023, 22:50:05 »
Yes idea weenie has it right.  Cooling without a radiator requires expending mass.  And fusion fuel doesn't explode when hit, I don't think its described as volatile.

Yes I know it says the sail says it collects solar energy.  But it doesn't make sense.  A star that is 1000 times more powerful charges the drive almost the same rate.  As for a radiator?  They get more efficient with heat, so are resistant to solar change.  Clearly closer then if it was a solar sail, which doesn't change efficiency with distance to a star like it should.

My point is, if it's simply a charging thing, then why can't you mount extra LF batteries?  Why is solar intensity not a factor?  Why does it take so much fuel roughly millions of times more energetic in the fusion engine then the tiny amount a kilometer solar sail collects, if energy is the problem.

The current listed way things work don't actually work.  Heat does work to explain the rules without needing to change rules.  But if people want to stick with the electrical charge fluff cause that's word of God from the source books, I get the sentiment despite it not making sense.

But as for the OP idea, quick charge batteries are real and function similar to what is described, to reiterate what I said before I like them in place of lithium fusion batteries as a divergent tech using the same construction rules.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2023, 23:01:44 by DevianID »

Mechanis

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #18 on: 12 November 2023, 01:57:18 »
In order:
Hydrogen Fuel is, in fact, explosive (ASFs and Fuel Cell Engines have to deal with that) it's just that regular fusion engines don't really carry enough to explode that way unless something goes very wrong (see the Stackpoling rules in TacOps, which account for "breached the fusion bottle while it was running"),

Brighter stars (or just being closer) do allow faster charging, with the attending misjump risk, the normal charge time assumes deliberate throttling to avoid that,
You can't mount more than one LF battery because of something BT doesn't ge into much, *actual physical configuration and volume*, simply put, the battery is not a single system shoved in the engine room, it's a purpose built array that goes around the entire KF Core and there's just no way to physically connect more than one to a given core.
I actually do assume that open-cycle cooling is what causes most of a fast charge's fuel consumption - because you're fusing hydrogen into the helium used to cool the drive.
If you want fast charging, some kind of modification that lets you fast charge (and perhaps cuts down the fuel consumption) without or with greatly reduced misjump chances is the way to go, because as mentioned a Deep Periphery microstate figured it out in canon.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2023, 02:25:03 by Mechanis »

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #19 on: 12 November 2023, 08:23:26 »
Well, isn't the K-F drive does explains that the problem is durability of the battery and core so you need to not charge it so fast or the attempt can hurts the systems? The source of the power wasn't matter at alll.

Also while hydrogen is not so stable material, but it is the fuel for the fusion engine so all the starships have to had a fuel tank that is expected to house it. If you need the extra fuel to got the energy to charge the battery you do need to spend more, though, but anyway any ship have some hydrogen.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2023, 08:26:17 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #20 on: 12 November 2023, 10:22:18 »
I did a bit of googling... Hydrogen should be perfectly stable in space as long as it's not mixing with oxygen in a warm environment.  If you hit a pile of hydrogen fuel, they would certainly expand as a gas into space, but not explosively so assuming it's being kept in a sane manner.  In the air you may be able to burn hydrogen given a volume of oxygen in the air, but in space unless you keep your hydrogen in a big warm pressurized container inexplicably filled with oxygen, it's shouldn't cause any issues not already included in just how hard it is to store in the first place.  As for a quench, well those suck and its why you don't have humans without safety vents around compressed gas in small spaces.  MRI quenches are lots of fun to see... From a safe distance on the internet.

I digress.  There is some throttling involved in how fast a jump core works, and the difference between the most energetic star and the least is 151 hours to 210.  Distance to the sun also doesn't matter.  So whatever a sail is doing, it's not electricity related as some of those stars are quite dim or incredibly energetic yet the sail works just fine about the same rate either way.  As for the engine one, any charge attempt requires dumping 10 burn days of fuel, regardless of how fast or slow, which is like a million times more energy then gathered by the sun, if the fuel is being used for energy and not cooling.

Now a lithium fusion battery lets you charge the core with a sail, and the battery with the engine, following normal rules.  Further a space station with a direct cable connection gives you the ability to charge with a -2 to the control roll, with no fuel expenditure.  So a LF battery in 183 hours charges 2 jumps, one with fuel one with sail, on an earth system.  Thus 1 jumps worth of charge is done in 92 hours over the average for 2 jumps, but you need to jump 2x to see a speed advantage.

A "quick charge" battery, in place of the lithium, might allow you to jump only 1 time, but by charging the core and battery at the same time with an included power cable link like a space station you can get that 92 hour average jump time.  So while being divergent to lithium batteries, and requiring fuel dumping, you can match their average jump speed with a combination of sail and engine charging.

idea weenie

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #21 on: 13 November 2023, 11:03:52 »
I digress.  There is some throttling involved in how fast a jump core works, and the difference between the most energetic star and the least is 151 hours to 210.  Distance to the sun also doesn't matter.  So whatever a sail is doing, it's not electricity related as some of those stars are quite dim or incredibly energetic yet the sail works just fine about the same rate either way.  As for the engine one, any charge attempt requires dumping 10 burn days of fuel, regardless of how fast or slow, which is like a million times more energy then gathered by the sun, if the fuel is being used for energy and not cooling.

I figure the recharge time is based on recharging at the star's jump limit (or just inside).  So if you can get closer to the star you can recharge faster, but then you have to get back out to the Jump limit.

A fun one would be recharging at the star-planet pirate point where (in Sol) there is 100* the insolation (Watts/square meter).  You just have to dial down the charge rate to something safe so you don't fry the Core (using existing rules covering the failure rolls from fast-charging the Jump Core)

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #22 on: 13 November 2023, 13:53:49 »
I did a bit of googling... Hydrogen should be perfectly stable in space as long as it's not mixing with oxygen in a warm environment.  If you hit a pile of hydrogen fuel, they would certainly expand as a gas into space, but not explosively so assuming it's being kept in a sane manner.

Several points:

When using said material to vent heat in to space, how is it not a warm environment, if not excessively so?  That was the whole point being brought up.

Leaks happen, so hot Hydrogen meats lukewarm Oxygen means what?

And lastly, when Fuel Crits happen, stuff explodes, so there is something more than just deuterium being involved.

This is the fuel used for propulsion, so it needs to be energetic when it leaves the ship, which means when it has some energetic capacity when heated up.

I figure the recharge time is based on recharging at the star's jump limit (or just inside).  So if you can get closer to the star you can recharge faster, but then you have to get back out to the Jump limit.

That is specifically stated where such charts exist.  Currently the most up to date is in Campaign Operations, which says, "Charge Time (hrs): Length of time in hours required for a JumpShip to recharge by solar sail at the proximity limit (including standard jump points) of the star system." - pg 101.
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Mechanis

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #23 on: 13 November 2023, 14:01:46 »
As mentioned, please actually read the charging rules, which provide charge time modifiers for different spectral classes and distance (since pirate points are a thing) which, while proven to be... Ah... less than scientifically accurate, let's say, are at least internally consistent. the "simple" charge time assumes deliberate throttling at the standard points, you have to dig into the advanced parts of the charge rules for the nitty gritty simulationist stuff (as usual for BT)

And yes, lore wise the charge speed is 100% dictated by having to keep the core cold enough that it stays a superconductor. So in theory a warmer superconductor to make the core out of would let you charge faster; as would developing a cooling system better than "completely immerse in liquid helium" (somehow).

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #24 on: 13 November 2023, 14:35:48 »
Several points:

When using said material to vent heat in to space, how is it not a warm environment, if not excessively so?  That was the whole point being brought up.

Leaks happen, so hot Hydrogen meats lukewarm Oxygen means what?

And lastly, when Fuel Crits happen, stuff explodes, so there is something more than just deuterium being involved.

This is the fuel used for propulsion, so it needs to be energetic when it leaves the ship, which means when it has some energetic capacity when heated up.

The hydrogen used to vent heat is not vented inside the ship, it is vented outside after passing through a bunch of radiators to get as much cooling capacity out of the hydrogen as practical.  The goal is to make sure the hydrogen never meets the lukewarm oxygen, and in a properly built/maintained setup there are a lot of safeguards to prevent exactly that from happening.  Those leaks where the hydrogen meets the oxygen are reduced and monitored as much as possible, and when those leaks happen in a large scale we learn once again why wearing spacesuits on board a ship and running around in vacuum is a good idea.

Fuel crits are when the fuel tank is hit by enemy fire, resulting in tank rupture and pressurized hydrogen finally having a way to escape.  Net result is you have rapidly expanding gasses finally able to escape in an uncontrolled manner.  As more of the liquid hydrogen absorbs ambient heat, the liquid hydrogen turns into vapor and continues escaping.  Think of it like shooting a hole in a tank of liquid Argon.  The Argon will not react with anything, but you will still get a pressure explosion from the liquid Argon boiling off and rupturing the gas tank.

Fuel used for propulsion is being energized by a fusion reaction in the main engine, and fusion reactions don't occur in normal atmosphere.

But you are right, all gasses have some energetic capacity when heated up, so smart crews will take several precautions to prevent 'unplanned exothermic gas reactions'.

That is specifically stated where such charts exist.  Currently the most up to date is in Campaign Operations, which says, "Charge Time (hrs): Length of time in hours required for a JumpShip to recharge by solar sail at the proximity limit (including standard jump points) of the star system." - pg 101.

True, I was covering for DevianID where he said "Distance to the sun also doesn't matter."

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #25 on: 13 November 2023, 15:14:33 »
The hydrogen used to vent heat is not vented inside the ship, it is vented outside after passing through a bunch of radiators to get as much cooling capacity out of the hydrogen as practical.

Since the Core is in the middle of the ship, and radiators are on the outside of the ships (even worse if you're sending it directly aft as that extends the reach of the lines), then the hydrogen being vented is still going THROUGH the ship, where leaks happen.

But you are right, all gasses have some energetic capacity when heated up, so smart crews will take several precautions to prevent 'unplanned exothermic gas reactions'.

Which is why using hydrogen fuel to do cooling when you already have other substances that utilize more efficient heat exchange technology is contra-indicated.

True, I was covering for DevianID where he said "Distance to the sun also doesn't matter."

Just supporting your statement there.
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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #26 on: 13 November 2023, 15:37:36 »
Since the Core is in the middle of the ship, and radiators are on the outside of the ships (even worse if you're sending it directly aft as that extends the reach of the lines), then the hydrogen being vented is still going THROUGH the ship, where leaks happen.

Ah, it sounded liek you meant the hydrogen being vented into the ship, where the hydrogen would mix with oxygen.  The radiators and piping would be carefully insulated/sealed/monitored to prevent that mixing.  There would be some hydrogen passing through, but locations where that liquid would pass near oxygen would be carefully monitored.

Best bet is having the hydrogen be transferred near the main engine, where it is already vacuum.  No explosion worries about hydrogen leaking into an oxygen atmosphere as  there is nothing for the hydrogen to react with.

Which is why using hydrogen fuel to do cooling when you already have other substances that utilize more efficient heat exchange technology is contra-indicated.

You need to get the core cooled down to really low temperatures, and hydrogen is available.

And per rules the ship consumes 10 Burn-days of fuel to recharge the core.  Venting that hydrogen to get the necessary cool temperatures vs the vacuum of space is 'tricky'.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #27 on: 13 November 2023, 21:48:51 »
Ah, it sounded liek you meant the hydrogen being vented into the ship, where the hydrogen would mix with oxygen.

Only when Bad Things happen would the likely be the case.  And considering the state of equipment in general by the 4SW...

You need to get the core cooled down to really low temperatures, and hydrogen is available.

How much thermal energy can hydrogen take as part of that transfer as opposed to using the normal Heat Sink system?

And per rules the ship consumes 10 Burn-days of fuel to recharge the core.  Venting that hydrogen to get the necessary cool temperatures vs the vacuum of space is 'tricky'.

And here is where we run in to that problem of the fuel being used to CHARGE the Core, not COOL the Core.

While it might be fun to consider altering that aspect, it would involve a fair bit of retconning.
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DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #28 on: 14 November 2023, 04:12:36 »
Quote
I figure the recharge time is based on recharging at the star's jump limit (or just inside).  So if you can get closer to the star you can recharge faster, but then you have to get back out to the Jump limit.

That is specifically stated where such charts exist.  Currently the most up to date is in Campaign Operations, which says, "Charge Time (hrs): Length of time in hours required for a JumpShip to recharge by solar sail at the proximity limit (including standard jump points) of the star system." - pg 101.

Quote
As mentioned, please actually read the charging rules, which provide charge time modifiers for different spectral classes and distance

I dont see any rules concerning distance/pirate points.  I already quoted what I found, which lists 210-151 hours as the entire band of how long it takes to charge a core with a sail... distance does nothing to increase or decrease charge time within a system cause luminosity isnt a real factor in jump charging with a sail.  I too have campaign ops, it is not stated in any place I could find,   Also, the star with 36k times the luminosity takes... 151 hours instead of 183.  So the sail is not caring about what light reaches it, cause 36k times the luminosity and 240 times dimmer are +/- 20% charge time, regardless of the distance, which often puts you farther (darker) then earth-type stars. 

But anyway, if you find a place in any book that lets you charge a drive in less then 151 hours via a sail, id love to see it.  Especially if it says being in orbit around earth sped up the charging time by a factor of 100 versus the zenith, illustrating that luminosity is proportional to charge time.  That would make the extra time calculating a pirate point always worth it on the back end, spending time up front pre jump to get a perfect calc roll for dropping charge time on an earth like star from 183 hours to 1.83 hours.

Quote
Leaks happen, so hot Hydrogen meats lukewarm Oxygen means what?
Leaks dont happen, actually.  Thats kinda the point.  If in the lore the space ships were constantly leaking oxygen or hydrogen, the crew would be dead or it would be sited somewhere.  Thats like saying leaks happen on a sub... maybe once, right before the sub is abandoned and the leaking room sealed off.  To do their job they cant leak.

When you crit a fuel tank, in space or atmosphere, there is only a 1/12 chance that it explodes.  11/12 that heavy weapons fire hitting a fuel tank does nothing is pretty impressively non-volatile you really got to hammer a fuel tank multiple times (12 on average) to get that hydrogen to do something.  Thats a lot.  But sure, I agree that putting holes in a hydrogen tank can, rarely, explode.  That doesnt mean that hydrogen cant be used to vent heat, it just means, like literally every gas on the ship, you need to contain it.  Also, its not like you have to pump miles of hydrogen tubing in... you can take the heat to the hydrogen in the engine room, where the hydrogen is already being pumped to, and vent it there after it has absorbed heat.

Like, you are doing something with 400 TONS of hydrogen when you charge the core.  It cant possibly be electricity generation... 400 tons of hydrogen in a btech fusion engine is stupidly high amounts of energy, compared especially to a tiny 1km solar array that can be replaced with a modern coal power plant.  Yet we still gonna dump 400 tons of hydrogen in the rules to get a jump coil charged--if not for cooling the core, what else could those 400 tons tons be doing?

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #29 on: 14 November 2023, 06:08:29 »
There is the mention that you can put the cable directly and bypass the delicate parts of the K-F drive, and in this case you can fully charge it by around 120+ hours(about 125?) without any chance to malfunction at all.

Strategic Operations mentioned those. Still, you need to remember that you can only use one type of source of energy at a time for charge a battery. Using a way to charge the default battery while using an another way to charge your L-F battery is, however, nothing wrong for the Lithium Fusion Batteries section does says that you can.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #30 on: 15 November 2023, 02:00:05 »
Quote
Strategic Operations mentioned those. Still, you need to remember that you can only use one type of source of energy at a time for charge a battery. Using a way to charge the default battery while using an another way to charge your L-F battery is, however, nothing wrong for the Lithium Fusion Batteries section does says that you can.
My idea for your proposed battery is exactly that--a 1 jump capacity version of the lithium fusion battery.  The Sodium Fusion battery or something.  So you can charge the battery with 5 burn days of fuel and half a solar charge.  The net result is the same speed as a lithium fusion battery, with all the standard construction rules as a lithium fusion battery.
So if a lithium battery spends 183 hours at Sol, and 10 burn days of fuel, it can make 2 jumps.  My proposed idea for your fast charge battery is 92 days at Sol with the sail, and 5 burn days of fuel, and you can make 1 jump. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #31 on: 15 November 2023, 14:28:46 »
I just think about this, although lacks a detail but only an idea. What about the alternative model of K-F drive, which can charge faster without any malfunction? Such as, able to be fully charged about 50~70% time of the normal K-F drive, whatever it's from the solar cell of the jump sail or direct connection with the space station. If you want to recharge the other ships by its own battery, its total energy is the same percent with the time to fully charged; so if a standard K-F drive needs 100 energy, it would needs 50~70 instead. That's the secret of the fast charge - you don't need to charge more to jump

I think that the feasible drawback is the reduced maximum jump distance, such as only able to jump 33% to 46.2% distance, making effectively 2/3(that's not final, though) distance per hour than the standard K-F drive. It is not so bad to reduce the effective travel time per distance by a half of the normal K-F driver too. Perhaps there would be an additional drawback such as not compatible with a Lithium Fusion Battery.

I don't think about the others but most of the other features would be better to leave as same with the standard one. It would be made as compact version(of warships), and will have the same drawbacks.

I don't think that it would be useful for the most people, but maybe someone like pirates, or warship fleet with local defenders(unlikely but that's only a presumption), are think about to have one on their jumpships.

So is there any better idea for this?

You have an interesting idea, I would like to hear more.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #32 on: 16 November 2023, 02:18:31 »
My idea for your proposed battery is exactly that--a 1 jump capacity version of the lithium fusion battery.  The Sodium Fusion battery or something.  So you can charge the battery with 5 burn days of fuel and half a solar charge.  The net result is the same speed as a lithium fusion battery, with all the standard construction rules as a lithium fusion battery.
So if a lithium battery spends 183 hours at Sol, and 10 burn days of fuel, it can make 2 jumps.  My proposed idea for your fast charge battery is 92 days at Sol with the sail, and 5 burn days of fuel, and you can make 1 jump. 

Well, is your suggestion, allows to charge by two sources and in this case you can charge it by half time instead? Am I read it correctly?

You have an interesting idea, I would like to hear more.

Initially I have only a brief concept but I have more now. What I think about is, a K-F drive that has shorter jump distance but also requires shorter time to charge as well. And the end result must not outperform the standard rules of the K-F drive too.

That is intended to be useful for the small kingdom that is consists of bunch of systems with close distance. And maybe pirates and guerrilla? Anyway, if you have some systems with close distance, you don't need to jump too farther but you do need to jump anyways, so the longer distance is not required but with the standard drive you need to wait the same time to jump. For warship fleet, it could be used for mobile defense for you can relocate those ships' position quicker than the normal drive.

Think about coastal ships, and in the case of the warships the 'monitor ship', that is not able to go through the ocean and have to stick with the coast. That is the intention of the drive. Well, the drive in this topic CAN jump to the nearby system so it is not a true coastal ship, but it is not so efficient to make a long trip with it.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #33 on: 16 November 2023, 10:43:45 »
Initially I have only a brief concept but I have more now. What I think about is, a K-F drive that has shorter jump distance but also requires shorter time to charge as well. And the end result must not outperform the standard rules of the K-F drive too.

That is intended to be useful for the small kingdom that is consists of bunch of systems with close distance. And maybe pirates and guerrilla? Anyway, if you have some systems with close distance, you don't need to jump too farther but you do need to jump anyways, so the longer distance is not required but with the standard drive you need to wait the same time to jump. For warship fleet, it could be used for mobile defense for you can relocate those ships' position quicker than the normal drive.

Think about coastal ships, and in the case of the warships the 'monitor ship', that is not able to go through the ocean and have to stick with the coast. That is the intention of the drive. Well, the drive in this topic CAN jump to the nearby system so it is not a true coastal ship, but it is not so efficient to make a long trip with it.

A kind of "puddle jumper", if you will?

I think it would be interesting to have something similar that could make a transition from the planetary plane to the Zenith/Nadir, but charge fast enough to make it worth it.  Think of it as an in-system bus.

So basically it would be faster to fly to/from Earth from/to Saturn's orbit (provided Saturn wasn't there) then to fly obliquely to the equivalent of Saturn's orbit "above" or "below" the sun.  They connect at "Saturn", Jump, disconnect, shift to an actual Jump Ship.  The in-system taxi does a quick recharge and is ready to take in the Dropships of the next incoming Jump Ship.

Only workable in a star system with regular traffic, but that's part of the point.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #34 on: 16 November 2023, 15:22:04 »
A kind of "puddle jumper", if you will?

I think it would be interesting to have something similar that could make a transition from the planetary plane to the Zenith/Nadir, but charge fast enough to make it worth it.  Think of it as an in-system bus.

So basically it would be faster to fly to/from Earth from/to Saturn's orbit (provided Saturn wasn't there) then to fly obliquely to the equivalent of Saturn's orbit "above" or "below" the sun.  They connect at "Saturn", Jump, disconnect, shift to an actual Jump Ship.  The in-system taxi does a quick recharge and is ready to take in the Dropships of the next incoming Jump Ship.

Only workable in a star system with regular traffic, but that's part of the point.

hmmmm

okay, bear with me now, we can base it partly on the primitive jumpship rules.

Baseline comparison, all other conditions.factors being equal (same solar spectra, same distance, no LFB)


1 to 4 LY/1 Day

5 to 9 LY/2 days

10-14 LY/3 days

15-19 LY/4 days

20-24 LY/5 days

25-29 LY/6 days

follow me here?  the increments are chosen to show just how much more efficient 30 LY/7 days really is-your 'upper limit' has the shortest proportional charge times-that is, shortest charge for the (Maximum) distance traveled, meaning that a 30LY ship beats out a 25 on the same 60 LY trading route, not only because it stops to charge less often, but because it gets more 'bang for the buck' with each stop over time.

BUT...if your local route is SHORTER, then you don't have to take as long between charges, since you arent charging for as long.

even if proportionally, the 'standard' or 'standard compact' core ship IS more energy/time efficient at the top end.

Another way, would be to have an offshoot of LFB tech that lines up with those primitive drives, but funcitons as a percentage of Core Mass.

say, Add 10% to your core mass at each level and gain the equivalent of an LFB-at the cost of haivng to charge twice as long as before (like an LFB) this rEALLY emphasizes why everyone standardized on the 30 LY core as fast as they could-because it's STILL MORE EFFICIENT OVER LONGER DISTANCES.

Literally your 'puddle jumper cores' end up being just that-excellent for short hops or in-system jumps, but kind of trash for anything with an extended distance/duration due to taking a bit longer to charge (and in this case, bigger really IS better-you can do a tiny 1 LY core, and yeah, you can recharge it in a day, or with capacitor, two days...but that's still going to take 30 days to go where a 30LY core goes in 1 day...assuming you have enough fuel to hot-charge it and you don't break anything.)

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #35 on: 16 November 2023, 15:51:57 »
It makes sense if we consider just how much Jump Core technology has developed from the 2200s.

Of course, it would just require people capable of understanding Jump Core in order to provide a Core that had that limited Jump Range and low power requirement at the same time.
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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #36 on: 16 November 2023, 17:17:02 »
Hmmm... I'm thinking a full day is too long for a "mere" 1 LY (or less) jump...

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #37 on: 16 November 2023, 20:35:01 »
Hmmm... I'm thinking a full day is too long for a "mere" 1 LY (or less) jump...

It's a deliberate inefficiency.  (*in this case, deliberate enough to let someone with a modern 7th grade education to figure out that it's inefficient.  gotta have teh rules simple enough for a general audience.)

a better layout (at least, more satisfying) might be to use exponents rather than straight add-and-subtract groups of five...but you run out of variations rather quickly that way.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #38 on: 16 November 2023, 20:58:21 »
Good point... I was trying to look out for the Ferry Service... ;)

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #39 on: 17 November 2023, 00:52:04 »
A Ferry Jumper could have one that recharges in a matter of hours (or even one), but only has a range of like 100 AU or less (2-3x the distance of the Sun to Pluto), or half a light-day, give or take.
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DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #40 on: 17 November 2023, 01:13:23 »
I'd like to think hyperspace has a certain similarity to friction.  More or less, it takes much more energy to overcome the initial movement, then to keep moving once in motion.

So like, bursting through reality into hyperspace is the hard part requiring a lot of up front energy.  Traveling 10 versus 20 light years is very little compared to the initial friction of busting through normal space.

I would think a 1 AU jump and a 1 light year jump would be, cosmically, the same thing.  Something like Half the total energy is needed to enter hyper space, the other half Id do an exponential growth line with the limit approaching 30, such that 31 is kinda like warp 10 with current engine tech.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #41 on: 17 November 2023, 07:22:18 »
A kind of "puddle jumper", if you will?

I think it would be interesting to have something similar that could make a transition from the planetary plane to the Zenith/Nadir, but charge fast enough to make it worth it.  Think of it as an in-system bus.

So basically it would be faster to fly to/from Earth from/to Saturn's orbit (provided Saturn wasn't there) then to fly obliquely to the equivalent of Saturn's orbit "above" or "below" the sun.  They connect at "Saturn", Jump, disconnect, shift to an actual Jump Ship.  The in-system taxi does a quick recharge and is ready to take in the Dropships of the next incoming Jump Ship.

Only workable in a star system with regular traffic, but that's part of the point.

That would be an another interested one but what I imagine is something that is able to jump at least 5~10LY. It does not need to jump more than 15~20LY, and it is surely the supposed drawback on it.

Still I don't deny that it is interesting. While it does not able to travel through the stars easily, it would allows 'combat jump' so it would be useful as the tactical naval combat and/or move through zenith and nadir.

I'd like to think hyperspace has a certain similarity to friction.  More or less, it takes much more energy to overcome the initial movement, then to keep moving once in motion.

So like, bursting through reality into hyperspace is the hard part requiring a lot of up front energy.  Traveling 10 versus 20 light years is very little compared to the initial friction of busting through normal space.

I would think a 1 AU jump and a 1 light year jump would be, cosmically, the same thing.  Something like Half the total energy is needed to enter hyper space, the other half Id do an exponential growth line with the limit approaching 30, such that 31 is kinda like warp 10 with current engine tech.

Yeah. Open the gate through the another plain part would costs the vast majority of the energy. I can't understand how the K-F drive moves the ship, but I can hardly imagine that the energy required to move within the hyperspace would be more than the energy required to open the gate through it. The 'move' part is not always means actually moving the ship through the space, though, but I don't understand how it actually moves in the hyperspace so I can't say about this well.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #42 on: 17 November 2023, 18:50:26 »
I just checked IO, and had totally forgotten about the "15 LY minimum".  If we're ignoring that and the 50,000 ton minimum limit for Primitive JumpShips, I think I'd keep the minimum (1 LY) jump engine at 4,000 tons (8% of 50,000) regardless of the size of the ship.  That would preclude jump capable Small Craft and such.

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #43 on: 18 November 2023, 01:33:17 »
I just checked IO, and had totally forgotten about the "15 LY minimum".  If we're ignoring that and the 50,000 ton minimum limit for Primitive JumpShips, I think I'd keep the minimum (1 LY) jump engine at 4,000 tons (8% of 50,000) regardless of the size of the ship.  That would preclude jump capable Small Craft and such.

That makes some sense, though it's kind of a shame we don't have the rules set up based on power output instead.  That would also prevent Jump-capable small craft, and meet the tonnage minimum ("It takes X amount of power to tear a hole into hyperspace, less and you're just overheating components") while still permitting things like the Bug-Eye spy ship.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #44 on: 18 November 2023, 03:19:13 »
That makes some sense, though it's kind of a shame we don't have the rules set up based on power output instead.  That would also prevent Jump-capable small craft, and meet the tonnage minimum ("It takes X amount of power to tear a hole into hyperspace, less and you're just overheating components") while still permitting things like the Bug-Eye spy ship.

How about a k + % model?  You have a certain fixed minimum mass for the KF core, plus a percentage of the ship's hull.  These values can be adjusted based on range of the KF drive.

For example, how about 3 kilotons + 25% (exact numbers TBD):
Ship mass - KF Core mass
4 kilotons - 4 kilotons
6 kilotons - 4.5 kilotons
15 kilotons - 6.75 kilotons
40 kilotons - 13 kilotons
100 kilotons - 28 kilotons
etc

So larger vessels get an advantage as the main factor is the percentage of mass, while smaller ships either go with shorter jump ranges or eventually run out of space.


I got the idea of a fixed minimum plus percentage of mass from the Honor Harrington series, where the described the Light Assault Craft, Courier Boats, and Frigates.  You can have ~10 kiloton Light Assault Craft with box launchers on each side, some point defense, and an energy weapon.  You can also have a 38 kiloton Courier vessel that is little more than FTL core, in-system drives, minimum personnel, and a computer core to receive, store, and pass on messages.  A ~50 kiloton Frigate has about the same armament as the Light Assault Craft.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #45 on: 18 November 2023, 06:23:22 »
Finally found the rules on Sub-Compact KF Drives... they're in TO:AUE.  They weigh 50% of ship mass and can be installed on ships between 5,000 and 25,000 tons.  They also can't mount any DropShip collars, so they're totally unsuited for ferries.

As a rough sketch, I'm thinking a 1 LY (in-system) ferry would be about 10,000 tons with 2 Drop Collars, 2 Small Craft Cubicles, a Station Keeping Drive, Jump Sail, 6 SI (the max with a Station Keeping Drive), 5 tons of armor (the max), 12 Small Lasers for Point Defense, 49 crew (40 enlisted, 9 officers), 2 Small Grav Decks, (Bay quality) passenger accommodations for 600 (held over from pre-Drop Collar days... I figure it's SAR capacity now), 100 Life Boats (same), 650 tons of fuel, 2,000 tons of cargo, and 450 reserved for consumables.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #46 on: 18 November 2023, 11:11:45 »
Finally found the rules on Sub-Compact KF Drives... they're in TO:AUE.  They weigh 50% of ship mass and can be installed on ships between 5,000 and 25,000 tons.  They also can't mount any DropShip collars, so they're totally unsuited for ferries.

As a rough sketch, I'm thinking a 1 LY (in-system) ferry would be about 10,000 tons with 2 Drop Collars, 2 Small Craft Cubicles, a Station Keeping Drive, Jump Sail, 6 SI (the max with a Station Keeping Drive), 5 tons of armor (the max), 12 Small Lasers for Point Defense, 49 crew (40 enlisted, 9 officers), 2 Small Grav Decks, (Bay quality) passenger accommodations for 600 (held over from pre-Drop Collar days... I figure it's SAR capacity now), 100 Life Boats (same), 650 tons of fuel, 2,000 tons of cargo, and 450 reserved for consumables.

10 kilotons to jump a pair of Dropships each massing up to 100 ktons?  I'd be tempted to increase the ferry's mass and decrease the number of Dropships it can carry.

Existing Jumpships need ~50 ktons of ship to jump a single Dropship (potentially 1:2 ratio), this ferry has a 1:20 ratio.  You are only getting 1/30 the range, so that does somewhat even it out.

I guess personal preference is making me want to change it to 15-20 ktons and only jumping one Dropship at a time (changing it to a 1:5 ratio).

Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #47 on: 18 November 2023, 11:16:19 »
You could probably cram a single drop collar on something in the 6-7,000 range.  Off to the scratch pad...

Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #48 on: 18 November 2023, 11:35:04 »
Yep, just barely in 6,000 tons.  That's for 1 Drop Collar, 1 Small Craft Cubicle, Sail, Station Keeping Drive, max SI and armor for that (36/3 tons), 12 Small Lasers, crew quarters for both the crew (49, including 9 officers) and the shuttle crew (5), a Small Grav Deck, 8 Life Boats, 100 tons of fuel, and 24 tons for consumables (about 3 months' worth).

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #49 on: 18 November 2023, 13:04:03 »
Also keep in mind that a system that has one of these Ferry Ships would have a Jump Ship yard of their own, as it would take far too long for a Ferry to make it to another world in most cases.

Which makes sense, as a system would need sufficient traffic to make having such ferries worth considering.

Come to think of it, I always found it a little odd as to how few Jump Yards there were.  Honestly, if I was a potentate of the Sphere, I'd be making sure each district/March/whatever had a few just to make sure that the loss of one territory didn't cripple my nation.  But those are considerations that would have applied before the first Star League fell. 

I could see the Raven Alliance territory suddenly having a relative explosion of such yard development, though.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #50 on: 18 November 2023, 14:02:00 »
Also keep in mind that a system that has one of these Ferry Ships would have a Jump Ship yard of their own, as it would take far too long for a Ferry to make it to another world in most cases.

Which makes sense, as a system would need sufficient traffic to make having such ferries worth considering.

Come to think of it, I always found it a little odd as to how few Jump Yards there were.  Honestly, if I was a potentate of the Sphere, I'd be making sure each district/March/whatever had a few just to make sure that the loss of one territory didn't cripple my nation...

apparently, this didn't happen, even when they could rebuild, it didn't happen.

Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance right after the Jihad (3079)



Total Jumpship yards not rendered into smoking rubble and scrap? One left, it's at Gibbs.

Guess how many shipyards the Lyrans built between 3079, and:


3145?

ZERO.

apparently goods move between star systems on methods other than jumpships, since the following nations have no shipyards at all:

Taurian Concordat
Magistracy of Canopus
Capellan Confederation

shall we go on?  More don't, than do.

so obviously, they can't be that important or that useful.  maybe the jumpships are breeding somewhere in the background like Farscape's Leviathans...

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Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #51 on: 18 November 2023, 14:57:44 »
Shipyards were top of the target lists in the early Succession Wars.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #52 on: 18 November 2023, 16:37:37 »
Shipyards were top of the target lists in the early Succession Wars.

That's even just top-down, bottom-up the entire infrastructure broke down as subcontractors got hit as well (plus financing)

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #53 on: 18 November 2023, 23:45:44 »
That's even just top-down, bottom-up the entire infrastructure broke down as subcontractors got hit as well (plus financing)

While it's fun to go down the rabbit hole on this *(and boy  did I screw up doing exactly that).  Let's get back to the topic without going into the other topic of why FASAnomics means you abandon all logic (Including internal setting logic) and just accept what you're told by TPTB, because everything in the setting is purely arbitrary.



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Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #54 on: 19 November 2023, 07:00:20 »
Heading sort of back in that direction, what do you think about my sketches of ferries? :)

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #55 on: 19 November 2023, 19:21:22 »
My issue with the in-system ferry is how it interacts with fuel/charging versus stock torchdrive.  Like, if the ferry is moving dropships insystem, a thing designed to move on its own, how efficient they are runs into how efficient torchships are.  Its like building a cargo ship to move slightly smaller cargo ships that would otherwise sail themselves just fine.

Like Sol/terra is a very well traveled system.  If a ferry would work anywhere it would be there.  The travel time is only 9-10 days from earth to zenith with a dropship.  The cost of a dropship moving itself is 10 burn days is the same as 10 burn days of fuel you dump with reactor charging an engine, but the dropship has a very low tonnage cost per day.  Now a tiny ferry drive rated to 1 LY presumably is so tiny it can affordably transport multiple dropships cheaper then they can move themselves.  Also, if the drive is too efficient, then 1ly warships, which would quickcharge their way across conventional 30ly leaps, would have massively more room for weapons and armor at a fraction of the cost, only spending a little longer making big jumps but having far too great an efficiency once in system.

If the ferry is more efficient in both speed (charging time) and fuel (transporting multiple big civilian droppers for less fuel then the droppers would spend) then we wouldnt see dropships with interplanetary drives in the same manner.  The ferry would be the defacto solution.  Already, we can use civvy jumpships to spend 183 hours charging with a solar sail to bypass the dropship transit time, so the ferry needs to also be more efficient then civilian jumpers with a sail.

I dont see a great design space for the ferry without it just completely taking over how all travel is done.

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #56 on: 19 November 2023, 19:38:48 »
Cannonshop's AU has them in a binary system with a ridiculously long transit from zenith/nadir to planet.  They make sense there.

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #57 on: 19 November 2023, 23:02:45 »
Like Sol/terra is a very well traveled system.  If a ferry would work anywhere it would be there.  The travel time is only 9-10 days from earth to zenith with a dropship.  The cost of a dropship moving itself is 10 burn days is the same as 10 burn days of fuel you dump with reactor charging an engine, but the dropship has a very low tonnage cost per day.  Now a tiny ferry drive rated to 1 LY presumably is so tiny it can affordably transport multiple dropships cheaper then they can move themselves.

First question is how much time is saved by burning to (effectively) Saturn's orbit from Earth than going to either Zenith or Nadir.

Second question is how expensive it is to build such ships initially.

Third question is the general cost of maintenance.  One thing to consider in that is how much it costs to maintain a sail versus the Dropship fuel saved.

Then from there is how long it takes for that ferry ship to "pay for itself" in how much it "saves" everyone in its operation.

Also, if the drive is too efficient, then 1ly warships, which would quickcharge their way across conventional 30ly leaps, would have massively more room for weapons and armor at a fraction of the cost, only spending a little longer making big jumps but having far too great an efficiency once in system.

Unfortunately, any JumpShip that can go 30 lys per Jump is pretty much doing it on solar power, and can (usually) guarantee they will land near a star.  While a 1ly "ferry" ship would almost guarantee that MOST of their Jumps will not be near a star so must be using fusion engines/fuel for recharging the core.  That would not be an efficient use, even if it could "theoretically" get their faster with a slightly faster charging Core per Light Year.

If the ferry is more efficient in both speed (charging time) and fuel (transporting multiple big civilian droppers for less fuel then the droppers would spend) then we wouldnt see dropships with interplanetary drives in the same manner.  The ferry would be the defacto solution.  Already, we can use civvy jumpships to spend 183 hours charging with a solar sail to bypass the dropship transit time, so the ferry needs to also be more efficient then civilian jumpers with a sail.

Nope, sorry.  You're missing some key points.

First, Jumpships cannot bypass Dropship transit time.  Sure they can show up where the ferries would ostensibly show up, but they would have to keep up real time data on where everything is in the system before they Jump in.  There are many reasons why the Zenith and Nadir Jump Points are used consistently instead of just Jumping in on the ecliptic, but reliability of that point is the biggest.

As it is, it only shortens the time, not bypasses it.  As I mentioned above, its the difference of flying up/down at an angle to the center of the system to the Jump Limit versus just flying "out" along the ecliptic.  I don't think it's huge, maybe saving 1-2 days in Sol, to use the example.

Second, not every system could have one.  There will be far more systems without Ferries than with.  So the normal Dropships we have now will be needed.

Third, they same would still be needed for invasions.  There is no guarantee that the ferries would be available in the first place (base protocol would be to Jump out to ecliptic) or be in sufficient numbers to carry the entire invasion force.

So in final point, it only has to be efficient enough to be able see paying for itself and profiting over the duration of its use in order to justify its use.  It doesn't have to be a very high level of efficient, just efficient enough.
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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #58 on: 21 November 2023, 11:41:15 »
Yep, just barely in 6,000 tons.  That's for 1 Drop Collar, 1 Small Craft Cubicle, Sail, Station Keeping Drive, max SI and armor for that (36/3 tons), 12 Small Lasers, crew quarters for both the crew (49, including 9 officers) and the shuttle crew (5), a Small Grav Deck, 8 Life Boats, 100 tons of fuel, and 24 tons for consumables (about 3 months' worth).

That would be very efficient.

Even if it has to charge using onboard fuel, that is only 10 burn-days for a 6 kiloton platform, rather than 10 burn-days for a 50 kiloton Scout (or bigger).  The recharge time is only 7 days, so if the transit time is over 8? days it will actually be faster for a Dropship to wait for the Ferry to charge, jump to the star-planet pirate point, and the Dropship transits from there.  (Hopefully the 100 tons of fuel will cover 10 Burn-Days)

The Ferry then recharges in 7 days using the abundant solar energy at the star-planet pirate point, and once recharged it can then transport a Dropship heading towards the Zenith or Nadir point.  At the same time it can refuel its tanks from a space station orbiting the L1 point.


So in worst case scenario:
Jumpship arrives at a system with two Dropships, and there are no Ferries at the Z/N point.  Only one Ferry is present in-system and it just arrived at the Pirate Point so its core is empty.  Transit time is 15 days (50% longer than Terra's transit).  One Dropship decides it doesn't want to wait for the Ferry and starts burning in-system.

Second Dropship negotiates fees with the Ferry and the Ferry puts the Dropship on its schedule.

A+7 days later, the Ferry is charged, and jumps to the Dropship (and the Jumpship jumps out).  The Ferry begins recharging either from onboard fuel or the Dropship docks and connects its fuel supply.

A+14 days later the Ferry is charged, and the Dropship is jumped to the Pirate Point.  The Dropship detaches, and spends 1 day transiting to the planet.

A+15 days - both Dropships arrive at the planet.

So how much Fuel is used by the 1 Dropship transiting, vs maintenance costs of the Ferry?


I could see a system with 3 Ferries; one at Zenith ready to go, one at Nadir ready to go, and a third at the L1 recharging and available to pop to either location.  It just needs a local facility to make the KF cores, or some way to plug an existing Core in to the Jumping Core turning the two into a single Core.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #59 on: 21 November 2023, 11:58:08 »
Yeah that would be pretty efficient. Although I probably would direct all incoming traffic with planetary cargo to a single jump point with two ferries on station.

I always fluffed it as systems with long transit times just have space station transshipment points at the Z/N and regular starlift service from the planet to that station. That way a Jumpship Captain doesn't have to wait for the planet's own dropships to complete their transit for a jumpship to continue its voyage. They can simply transfer whatever cargo is going 'down' with whatever is going interstellar.

DevianID

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #60 on: 22 November 2023, 00:51:23 »
In that ferry idea, couldnt a civilian scout jumpship already do that if it takes 7 days?  It doesnt seem to be 'quick charging' per the OPs idea.

So far, only a lithium fusion battery really cuts down on charge time, by charging 2 jumps worth at once with fuel/recharge station plus sail.  This would fairly substantially speed up the ferry service.  A charged lithium drive could jump to you, spend the time needed to calculate the perfect pirate point, and jump you to the planet.  So that puts the time at how long it takes to calculate a perfect pirate jump.  Anyone have that figure already crunched?  Cause those hours calculating the pirate point can be used to also get some extra charge time in.

Daryk

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #61 on: 22 November 2023, 04:34:27 »
True, but with a full 30 LY range, the Scout could be doing a LOT more than just ferry duty... ;)

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #62 on: 22 November 2023, 05:00:29 »
apparently goods move between star systems on methods other than jumpships, since the following nations have no shipyards at all:

Taurian Concordat
Magistracy of Canopus
Capellan Confederation

shall we go on?  More don't, than do.

so obviously, they can't be that important or that useful.  maybe the jumpships are breeding somewhere in the background like Farscape's Leviathans...

There may actually be an answer to this hidden in Jihad Final Reckonin'

Terra.

It's mentioned very briefly that after the war the Belts were starting up jumpship production again, promising outputs that were described as fantastical in the modern era or fairly typical for the Star League era. It could be that the Houses failed to rebuild domestic production because it was just cheaper to buy jumpships from Terra.

It's short sighted and literally ties a huge sector of their economy to the whims of the republic, but, well, they'd already done that once when they decided to let Comstar run the HPG network... again... on Comstar's pinky promise that they would behave themselves this time.
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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #63 on: 22 November 2023, 06:54:03 »
There may actually be an answer to this hidden in Jihad Final Reckonin'

Terra.

It's mentioned very briefly that after the war the Belts were starting up jumpship production again, promising outputs that were described as fantastical in the modern era or fairly typical for the Star League era. It could be that the Houses failed to rebuild domestic production because it was just cheaper to buy jumpships from Terra.

It's short sighted and literally ties a huge sector of their economy to the whims of the republic, but, well, they'd already done that once when they decided to let Comstar run the HPG network... again... on Comstar's pinky promise that they would behave themselves this time.

Or the Belters wee completely separate from Comstar, but then The Wall went up and the Belters were trapped?  If the Belters tried to jump from inside The Wall to another system protected by The Wall, their Jumpship would not be on the expected list and get 'returned to sender'.

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #64 on: 22 November 2023, 10:19:10 »
My issue with the in-system ferry is how it interacts with fuel/charging versus stock torchdrive.  Like, if the ferry is moving dropships insystem, a thing designed to move on its own, how efficient they are runs into how efficient torchships are.  Its like building a cargo ship to move slightly smaller cargo ships that would otherwise sail themselves just fine.

Like Sol/terra is a very well traveled system.  If a ferry would work anywhere it would be there.  The travel time is only 9-10 days from earth to zenith with a dropship.  The cost of a dropship moving itself is 10 burn days is the same as 10 burn days of fuel you dump with reactor charging an engine, but the dropship has a very low tonnage cost per day.  Now a tiny ferry drive rated to 1 LY presumably is so tiny it can affordably transport multiple dropships cheaper then they can move themselves.  Also, if the drive is too efficient, then 1ly warships, which would quickcharge their way across conventional 30ly leaps, would have massively more room for weapons and armor at a fraction of the cost, only spending a little longer making big jumps but having far too great an efficiency once in system.

If the ferry is more efficient in both speed (charging time) and fuel (transporting multiple big civilian droppers for less fuel then the droppers would spend) then we wouldnt see dropships with interplanetary drives in the same manner.  The ferry would be the defacto solution.  Already, we can use civvy jumpships to spend 183 hours charging with a solar sail to bypass the dropship transit time, so the ferry needs to also be more efficient then civilian jumpers with a sail.

I dont see a great design space for the ferry without it just completely taking over how all travel is done.

The efficiencies don't pile up if you only have one inhabited world in a system, or in systems without extensive deep-system economies.  (aka places with Belters or Belter equivalents).  The reason is time.

y'see, you can't go higher than one gee if you're carrying people any significant distance and want to deliver them alive and in good health.

that right there, limits your thrust duration, and if it takes a week under thrust (or two, or four)  a ferry system pays for itself, presuming you have two of them or more to swap out.

particularly if you're developing a full in system economy rather than boutique trips.

One way to consider this, is the difference in efficiencies between railways, and automobiles, when you start looking at continental length trips versus urban-core-to-the-suburbs.  Your Econoline van might seem more efficient-until you have to drive from Minneapolis to Los Angeles on a regular basis, rather than once in a year.

same thing here; for systems with very long distances between points and planets, being able to make that trip in under two weeks or less than a month really stacks up, but if your jump limit is only 7 days? well...why woudn't you just run torch ships to the planet and back?  It's the more sensible approach!

Kowloon's jump limit is four weeks.  That's a month between the primary planet, and the Zenith or Nadir.  The closer points include the planetary L1, (several days) Planet-Moon L1 (four to six hours) or the hot point between the two stars (better bring your sunscreen) which is still pretty close to a month at standard one-gee driving.

THAT system needs a Ferry, because your emergency supplies can expire before you arrive, see?  This ain't a system you'll need at somewhere like New Avalon, because the distance is reasonable from the Zenith/Nadir or the L1, and there isn't a lot of development out-system into places like the local Kuiper belt, gas giants with Moons, etc.

chalk it up to New Avalon being a nice place, with a simple geometry that is one of the main reasons it became an Administrative Capital for an interstellar empire.

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #65 on: 22 November 2023, 10:45:14 »
The thing with long transit times is that systems should have transshipment stations at the Z/N points and regular convoy of dropships (if possible unmanned drones or autonomous robots that can go faster than manned ships, or Mass Driver 'satellites') going to and from the planet's surface or other deep space settlements there so there is a continuous stream of incoming cargo. Jumping into the L-1 from the Z/N can be done during emergencies or with prior authorization from the planetary authority but Jumpships probably should be continuing on their regularly chartered voyage out of system as much as possible to ensure you get the best use out of their unique abilities.

Charistoph

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #66 on: 22 November 2023, 13:03:24 »
So far, only a lithium fusion battery really cuts down on charge time...

Oh, not true.  Quick-Charging has been an option for a VERY long time (at least as early as BattleSpace).  This allows for the charging of the Core in as little as 16 hours, though that quick of a time requires a VERY good crew to just have a 1/36 of not having a MisJump.

For an average crew to Quick-Charge without an extreme chance of Mis-Jumping, you're looking at somewhere between 75 and 124 hours (for a 4-5 Piloting Skill Crew).  If they wanted to Quick-Charge with the smallest chance of not MisJumping you're looking at 18-19 hours of Quick-Charging.

This can be done with the fusion engine or even just getting closer to the star.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Alternative K-F Drive idea: what about fast charge model?
« Reply #67 on: 22 November 2023, 13:48:27 »
There may actually be an answer to this hidden in Jihad Final Reckonin'

Terra.

It's mentioned very briefly that after the war the Belts were starting up jumpship production again, promising outputs that were described as fantastical in the modern era or fairly typical for the Star League era. It could be that the Houses failed to rebuild domestic production because it was just cheaper to buy jumpships from Terra.

It's short sighted and literally ties a huge sector of their economy to the whims of the republic, but, well, they'd already done that once when they decided to let Comstar run the HPG network... again... on Comstar's pinky promise that they would behave themselves this time.
Nothing new really. Even in RL most nations do not build essential transport assets (such as cargo aircraft, trains, container-ships, etc) but just buy them on the existing market. But I do expect that all notable nations have maintenance slips for JumpShips that are only good enough for maintenance and basic repairs, and such facilities are not worth mentioning in an objectives document.
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