MoC/CapCon unification

[Alain Dumont]

Think it'll happen, post-Dark Age?  Think it should?  And what about the Taurians?   


I think I'd like to see the Trinity powers merge, or even a CC/MoC/Andurien merger.

Despite their obvious cultural differences, I think the CC and MoC go well enough together that they should merge.  Chocolate is good, and peanut butter is good, but a Reese's Cup is better.

[Ian Sharpe]

Nope.  Look at the FedCom disaster.  And the CC and MOC have much larger cultural barriers than the LC/FS ever did.  Besides, the Centrellas are well on their way to simply taking over the Celestial Throne without merging the two nations. ;)

[Peacemaker]

Think it'll happen, post-Dark Age?  Think it should?  And what about the Taurians?   


I think I'd like to see the Trinity powers merge, or even a CC/MoC/Andurien merger.

Despite their obvious cultural differences, I think the CC and MoC go well enough together that they should merge.  Chocolate is good, and peanut butter is good, but a Reese's Cup is better.

It's an unpopular stance, but I tend to agree. Canopus and Sian have been extremely close for a while now and I think we're within one generation of the Liaos and Centrellas merging into one line ruling one state. Especially if Danai becomes Chancellor; I see her liberalizing the Confederation until the two cultures are close enough to live under the same proverbial roof.

Once that happens, I'd say the Duchy of Andurien and Fronc Reaches are probably going to assimilated, unless someone can put a stop to the CapCan Axis.

[Archangel]

Not going to happen.

While the lower classes in the CC might not mind to get more freedoms, the upper classes will not be happy if force to give up some of their power.  On the other hand the lower classes in the MoC wouldn't want to give up their freedoms while the nobles wouldn't mind getting more permanent power.

The Maskirovka obviously wouldn't want to give up their power but neither the upper nor the lower classes of the MoC would want them intruding on their lives.

As far as Andurien and Taurian Concordat is concerned neither trust the CC.  Too much mutual hatred between Andurien and the CC while the CC have proven they cannot be trusted to come to the aid of the Taurians.  There is also considerable evidence that hostilities broke out between the CC and both realms after the Jihad.

[Maelwys]

It would be really hard to get everyone to agree, especially with the traditional hatred between the Capellans and the Anduriens.

Though the post Dark Ages material is going to be interesting.

We've got Daoshen who is in control of the CapCon.
We've got Ilsa who is in control of the MoC (and Daoshen apparently), who is working on marrying into the Andurien nobility.

And then there's Danai. IIRC, she's currently technically the heir to both the CapCon and the MoC. So if anything happens to Daoshen and Ilsa (before either has another kid) then Danai is (theoretically, since both nations have rules inplace that could prevent it) in charge of both the CapCon and the MoC, without the two nations being merged.

And if Ilsa has a kid of the Humphries Clan, then that kid could possibly be the heir to the MoC and Andurien (She's old for having a kid these days, but I would think with the longer lifespan and MoC medical technology, it would still be possible).

Needless to say, its has the possibility of being all sorts of confusing.

[Alain Dumont]

Not going to happen.

While the lower classes in the CC might not mind to get more freedoms, the upper classes will not be happy if force to give up some of their power.  On the other hand the lower classes in the MoC wouldn't want to give up their freedoms while the nobles wouldn't mind getting more permanent power.

First, how does this follow?  How'd you get from "MoC/CapCon merger" to "CapCon's upper classes will be forced to give up their power"?

The Maskirovka obviously wouldn't want to give up their power but neither the upper nor the lower classes of the MoC would want them intruding on their lives.

 

A legitimate concern. 

As far as Andurien and Taurian Concordat is concerned neither trust the CC.  Too much mutual hatred between Andurien and the CC while the CC have proven they cannot be trusted to come to the aid of the Taurians.  There is also considerable evidence that hostilities broke out between the CC and both realms after the Jihad.

The MoC had just recently invaded the CapCon when the Trinity Alliance was forged, so past hostilities aren't necessarily a barrier.

You don't think some more dynastic alliances could be knit?

[Maelwys]

The MoC had just recently invaded the CapCon when the Trinity Alliance was forged, so past hostilities aren't necessarily a barrier.

You don't think some more dynastic alliances could be knit?

Well, keep in mind the MoC's attack on the CapCon was only once, lasted only a few years and was 30 years before the Trinity Alliance The CapCon and the Anduriens on the other hand have been fighting off and on for hundreds of years. It isn't guaranteed to be a barrier, but the fighting between the MoC and CapCon is definitely a different beast than between the CapCon and Anduriens.

As for Capellan nobles giving up power, they may not have to give it up, but it if you follow something of the MoC rules, its going to be limited. Heck, the entire Servitor caste would probably have to go.

[jimdigris]

If it is going to happen at all, it will be over many generations.  It would have to begin with Danai liberalizing the Capellan political system with concurrent invasions by pleasure circuses.  Until the Canopian public could be assured that their individual liberties would not be curtailed, no governmental merger is going to happen.

[Alain Dumont]

What about the Anduriens first, or even just the Anduriens?

[Jaim Magnus]

IF a merger were to take place, it will take time.  Generations probably.

If that were the case, I see it happening like this:  MoC and Andurien merge, while remaining allied to the CapCon.  Give it another few decades and then the MoC/Andurien merges with the CapCon.

I think it would be fun and shake things up... but I would be surprised if it actually happened.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I don't see a merger, but I do see a "two countries, one dynasty" thing of Centrelliaos giving each country its own distinct ruler.  Andurien, well, that would be more likely to get outright conquered and divided if it were ever to be absorbed, but I don't see it being something the Magistracy would do anytime soon, at least not without great provocation.

[Nerroth]

Personally, I think a Union of the Crowns (which is close to how it stands already, only with the need of a viceroy or governor-general to handle whichever throne the sovereign doesn't choose to actually sit on) would be as far as I'd want it to go.

So far as Andurien goes, I would imagine keeping it as at least a puppet state would have its benefits to both the Magistracy and Confederation; it would act as a useful buffer to the League (or rather to the Regulans and the Wolf Empire).


Or, to put it another way, so long as the MoC and CapCon leave Andurien (more or less) to itself, the League doesn't have to divert more resources to keep and eye on them, or on a more restive border with the "core" CapCon for that matter; and thus would have more room to remain focused on the Regulan, Lyran and Wolf problems on their other borders. (And in so doing, help keep those threats further away from Capellan and Canopian space.)

[Lore]

It's an unpopular stance, but I tend to agree. Canopus and Sian have been extremely close for a while now and I think we're within one generation of the Liaos and Centrellas merging into one line ruling one state. Especially if Danai becomes Chancellor; I see her liberalizing the Confederation until the two cultures are close enough to live under the same proverbial roof.

While I'm inclined to agree with this possibility, I tend to believe that Danai's attempt at liberalising the Confederation won't be without many obstacles -- particularly among those Capellan officials who enjoy the high level of authority granted to them by the governmental style of the State. And I don't expect it'll happen overnight.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that her policy of liberalising the Confederation -- to make it ready for the eventual union with the Magistracy -- may not even become a completed agenda during Danai's reign. I'd prefer to see it handled -- with varying degrees of success and failure -- by those Chancellors immediately following Danai. Enacting generational reforms [though, predominantly targeted at the Capellan state] through the realms that seek to underline the strengths of both states, and the benefits that would come from the melding of cultures, governments, and societies.

We've already seen what mess comes from "speedy" unions.

[Maelwys]

Of course, considering the personal power of the Chancellor, it may be that those powerful Capellans may long for a ruler that isn't a "Diety." A more liberal CapCon may allow them to increase their personal power without running the risk of a vengeful god coming down on them for a misstep.

Sort of like what happened recently with the `Mech company that got smacked down for messing with another company.

[Lore]

Of course, considering the personal power of the Chancellor, it may be that those powerful Capellans may long for a ruler that isn't a "Diety."

I'd expect Chancellor-Magestrix Danai would eventually do away with the divinity-aspect that became the hallmark of Daoshen's reign.

[Peacemaker]

If anything, the CapCon might have an easier time integrating with another nation because power is so centralized in the Chancellor. Of course, with a weak Chancellor like Dainmar or Maximilian, this can make the Confederation as fractious as the FWL, but under a strong Chancellor, whatever he or she says, gos.

[MadCapellan]

Much like the Confederated Suns I've often mused about, any merger between the Confederation and Magistracy would, at a minimum, have to both preserve Capellan earned Citizenship and privide basic human rights to Servitors. 

This isn't an impossibility.  In fact, HB:HL indicates the Sun-Tzu Liao has already begun granting basic rights to Servitors, outlawing their ownership and guaranteeing them wages for work performed. 

I could see Danai Liao-Centrella being able to pull off a personal union of the two States - She's intelligent, female (a must for the first joint ruler, given the Magistracy's biases), and inherently understands enough about both what is right & wrong with both states to make it work.  Unlike many of the starry-eyed Canopian posters on these forums, I don't see Danai as a pure Centrella, nor as a Liao, but as an elegant fusion of both. 

[Lore]

In fact, HB:HL indicates the Sun-Tzu Liao has already begun granting basic rights to Servitors, outlawing their ownership and guaranteeing them wages for work performed.

I've speculated in the past that Servitor reform is just the first step of many on the road to the Confederation's eventual unification with the Magistracy.

In order to make the populace more receptive to new ideas and new cultures... you really need to start loosening up the policies and beliefs they're already familiar with.

... I don't see Danai as a pure Centrella, nor as a Liao, but as an elegant fusion of both.

I tend to see Danai in a somewhat more complicated light. She's likely inherited the very best of manipulative skills from both sides of her ancestry, so I suspect she's quite capable of being more of one than the other, at times, when required.

[foxbat]

I don't think it will last if it happens.  This is also a merger of 2 royal families, making succession crises more complicated, and dynastic ambitions more acute. So, in my opinion, the odds are fair a dispute between dynastic rivals will follow the lines of the cultural divide between CC and MoC. This would make at any rate an interesting and original line of fiction.

[jimdigris]

The merger may be welcomed by both dynasties.  It would give the Centrellas more power and it would give the Liaos that injection of sanity that is desperately needed. :))

[Niopsian]

I think it's part of Ilsa's long term plan.

But I also want to believe there's this intricate shadow game being played between Ilsa and Daoshen, which Daoshen is slowly, obliviously losing.

[Alex Keller]

Unification for these realms is a bad thing.  Here's to hoping the leaders see the same.

[MarauderD]

I think we've seen an inner sphere highly resistant to change over the last century.

1. Reforms in the DC were met with reactionary vigor, starting a civil war-like battle for Luthien.

2. Federated Commonwealth anyone?

As soon as the mess hits the fan, so to speak, there will be agitators saying "wasn't it great back when we were just Canopian" or "just Capellan" and not some fusion of both?

Maybe I'm wrong, but Federated and Lyran cultures had more in common and there was plenty of friction there.  Canopian and Capellan cultures don't seem compatible at all to me. Matriarchy vs Patriarchy? I dunno, seems unlikely.

On top of it all, the map of 3130 shows that the Capellans ninjaed Detroit out from under the Canopians.  That doesn't seem overly friendly to me, barring some production agreements, etc.

[Peacemaker]

Since when is the CapCon a patriarchy? Many, if not most of the greatest Chancellors have been women.

[Alain Dumont]

Maybe I'm wrong, but Federated and Lyran cultures had more in common and there was plenty of friction there.  Canopian and Capellan cultures don't seem compatible at all to me. Matriarchy vs Patriarchy? I dunno, seems unlikely.

Patriarchy?  I imagine this comes as a great surprise to Alecia & Romano Liao. 

[MarauderD]

Yeah, patriarchy is a bit off. My mistake, I guess pleasure circus vs. Maskirovka torture squad is the dichotomy I was going for?

[Alain Dumont]

The imp in me wants to point out that to at least one Magestrix, those weren't necessarily different, either.   >:D


But I get what you mean. 

[Lore]

Yeah, patriarchy is a bit off. My mistake, I guess pleasure circus vs. Maskirovka torture squad is the dichotomy I was going for?

I have it on good advice that the Magistracy will soon be opening a pleasure circus on Crucible Station.

...

Pain and pleasure... the dichotomy of the Capellan Magistracy!

[Darth Nichos]

The Ideal State for Slaanesh!

Danai would be the perfect Catalyst for a merger- or a Union where the Three States are united under one flag but still separate- like a Federation or a True Confederation.

[Peacemaker]

I have it on good advice that the Magistracy will soon be opening a pleasure circus on Crucible Station.

Now that's just plain offensive and sick. I like it.


So, what should the proposed Canopian/Capellan superstate be called? I propose "The Sian Axis".