Solving the Crusader Question

[Colt Ward]

The Crusaders were ALWAYS going to become the dominant philosophy because of human nature, it ticks off half a dozen boxes.

The Crusader movement is just a logical extension of Nik's propaganda about retaking the Pentagon worlds.  It is just renamed and given life- again, reading the Founding of the Clans established Nik's desire to conquer & remold all of human society.  They chased down those who fled to live differently after all.

[InsolentMyrmex]

The Crusaders were ALWAYS going to become the dominant philosophy because of human nature, it ticks off half a dozen boxes.

The Crusader movement is just a logical extension of Nik's propaganda about retaking the Pentagon worlds.  It is just renamed and given life- again, reading the Founding of the Clans established Nik's desire to conquer & remold all of human society.  They chased down those who fled to live differently after all.

That's very reasonable, a lot like how the Reuinification War set up the brutality of the Succession Wars I can buy that central imperial conceit being nurtured in Operation Klondike.

[Hellraiser]

The dragoon compromise says the crusader movement was real and an ideology a significant number of Khans subscribed to fifty years before Outbound Light. Khans are elected politically, which means a crusader khan doesn’t get in place without some significant crusader support from the bloodnamed.

So regardless of origins, it’s a real movement with major support in many clans by year 3000. Which cycles back to my original comment. If we want to keep the clans as the clans we know, then the crusaders would invade regardless. To stop it, we have to erase a fifth of the clans’ existence to wind back far enough to remove the rise of crusader elements.

I'm aware of the Dragoon Compromise & how long the movement was on the rise for.

I feel like the point isn't being made.  Or maybe to clarify the date.

The Londerholm Revolt took place in 2912

The point I think FS is making, & one I'm agreeing with, is, that to even GET to the Compromise there had been nearly a CENTURY of Astroturfing going on by the Merchants.

Not saying the Crusaders wouldn't "eventually" have gotten to the same spot, just pointing out that w/o the Londerholm Revolt & the Merchants pushing for it, your not just looking 50 years later, probably a couple centuries at least w/o that big push, and it is possible that the movement would have died out stillborn instead.

[Mendrugo]

The Londerholm Revolt took place in 2912

The point I think FS is making, & one I'm agreeing with, is, that to even GET to the Compromise there had been nearly a CENTURY of Astroturfing going on by the Merchants.

The merchant conclaves started discussing responses after 2912, but didn't start supporting the Crusader fringe movement until the 2950s, and then mostly with documentaries and other warrior-appropriate programming.  So the merchant propaganda was only 40-ish years old by the time of the Great Debate. 

But I concur - the Crusader movement might have fizzled out without merchant conclave support.

[Hellraiser]

I stand corrected, I missed that bit about them not supporting it till 2950.

[The Wobbly Guy]

A lot of it is due to the premises. If instead of marginal worlds, the clan Homeworlds were chock full of Gaian planets rich in resources?

Then it might have been nuts for the clans to even consider leaving paradise, where they could fight and trial to their hearts' content.

But because the homeworlds were so marginal, everybody had to scrape along, so the IS became the fabled paradise and added impetus for invasion.

[Metallgewitter]

The thing is though: most planets aren't even fully settled. Most have been untouched save for the places where trial take places and the cities that were build around firebases, factories and "capitals". I think the Clans could in theory turn at least several of their marginal worlds into better plasnets if it weren't for the "Live spartan" mandate set by Nicolas Kerensky. Plus there should be more planets in closer vicinity (like the Colleen system the Spirits found). The merchants probably made calculations and decided "Well it's cheaper and more profitable for us to wage war then to build up" Huh. Sounds like the old Hegemony when they waged the Reunification War

[Alan Grant]

You are providing a rational counter-argument to a movement that isn't wholly rational in its thinking and logic.

The whole Paradise worlds of the Inner Sphere thing is just one piece of it and it's not wholly based on facts. The Inner Sphere became a place of myth and legend among Clan society. A proverbial land of milk and honey where all will be well, and life will be better.

It's not like they are actually, physically, making true scientific comparisons most of the time. We are talking about laborers in many cases (in sheer numbers a lot of Clan society is laborers) having heard, having been told "hey, it's paradise over there." They've been shown little to no data or facts. They aren't analyzing planetary scans. It's almost akin to spirituality or folklore, interwoven with propaganda.

Of course the reality is that the Inner Sphere is a mixed bag. There are worlds that are much less friendly (less habitable) to humans there than what we see in the Clan Homeworlds. But there are also worlds that are very habitable.

The expression the grass is always greener on the other side, comes to mind. There's this place out there that is so much better than here. "Hey.. we should GO there...." It's that, and the Crusaders who had other reasons for this, were happy to use this argument to their advantage.

Different aspects of Clan society developed their own reasons/rationale for the Crusader philosophy. For some it was a better life, for others it was honor and glory. For yet others it was perceived like undoing a wrong from history. The fall of the Star League was seen as a wrong, and the Clans could make it right. Some (the Nova Cats leaned on this) saw it as a rescue mission. Others saw the Clan way of life as superior to what came before, and imagined it was only right and natural that the Clans should bring the superior way of life to the barbarians. Then of course you had the idea that the Inner Sphere powers could be a threat that may attack the Clans. Many justifications were used, not just one.

My point is, you can peel apart and dissect the Crusader argument and philosophy. But you also have to accept that it isn't entirely rational. So defeating it through logical arguments has its limitations. If you had tried to stand up and say "well, we could do more terraforming, we could create paradise worlds here..." You would have been shouted down by the individuals and groups who are then telling you "Neg, you just.. you just do not GET IT, quiaff?"

It's not wholly rational.

[Metallgewitter]

My point is, you can peel apart and dissect the Crusader argument and philosophy. But you also have to accept that it isn't entirely rational. So defeating it through logical arguments has its limitations. If you had tried to stand up and say "well, we could do more terraforming, we could create paradise worlds here..." You would have been shouted down by the individuals and groups who are then telling you "Neg, you just.. you just do not GET IT, quiaff?"

It's not wholly rational.

You can simplfy this with how the Clans reacted when the IS wiped out the Smoke Jaguars "Oh well that could never happen to US!"Or when the IS in general launches counter strikes. Like during the Falcon assault while the FedCom civil war raged "Wait they attack OUR planets?"

[Colt Ward]

Paradise, Shangri La, Avalon, Utopia . . .the whole Hassiah/assassin thing . . . Humanity has long believed the grass is greener somewhere else.

Really, how is the Clan belief the IS is a paradise except for those corrupt House Lords than the Inner Sphere's Golden Age belief in the Star League.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The only difference is that the Clans didn't experience the Succession Wars devastation that cost them all that high technology from the Star League.  For most of the Inner Sphere, the Star League really was a better time (though not as much as they made it out to be).  For the Clans, not meeting the Star League standard of living was purely a choice to not invest in better infrastructure and production, as spelled out in Wars of Reaving.

[GuyIncognito]

I really am just delighted by the notion that you can plausibly blame Clan Spaniel for some small part of Operation REVIVAL if you squint.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I really am just delighted by the notion that you can plausibly blame Clan Spaniel for some small part of Operation REVIVAL if you squint.

Small part? That cartoon raised entire generations of people who would go on to organize, plan and carry out REVIVAL

Forget squinting, you need welding goggles to not be blinded by it's presence   

[Hellraiser]

The only difference is that the Clans didn't experience the Succession Wars devastation that cost them all that high technology from the Star League. 

I mean, technically they did.  Well the Exodus did.  Pentagon was trashed.
Nicky was just lucky & evac'd out to Strana Mechty with what was left of the Navy & a couple divisions of ground troops to hide for 2 decades.

[Hellraiser]

Clan Spaniel, MUST DEFEAT THE 5 MONKEYS!

[butchbird]

Don't neglect the effet of clan spaniel on young clanners psych. It inscribes itself in a long tradition of propaganda.

Quite the many years ago I was quite amused to learn that most youth litterature in imperial Japan centered around a standardized plot of "teenager saves the day against the ennemies of the rising sun"...we know how that went. Drilling kids about dreaming of violently defending the realm is standard practice, and most assuredly is of surprising effectiveness. The GI Joe joke is actually probably spot on.

And its true on many levels. On a more mundane topic, the number of north-american gen Y kids first sensibilized to environmental issues by "captain planet and the planeteers" must be astounding.

And since I'm posting here...

I fail to see how the clans COULDN'T come up with a thought current in the vein of crusader philosophy. Of course, from there, its only inevitable that it becomes the leading tought current.

From an ideological perspective, the planets of the inner sphere are the "lost, promised lands". Kerensky didn't launch the exodus to escape the 'sphere, but rather the corruption. And then, there's always Terra. What a draw the craddle of humanity must be. Wether you wish to protect it from outside forces or from itself, you still long for it. 'Tis but a dream, but it is one you can reach for, and there's only so much to hope for in the clan homeworlds.

From a cynical point of view, war always drags commercial opportunity in its wake. Clan homeworlds are poor, underdevelopped. It might be by design, but how could the merchant caste be eternally content with this state of affairs? And merchants always find a way. besides, trueborns, for all their supposed power, are but products, and isn't it waste to let that which you manufacture rot and dull through missuse and neglect? The clans function much like a corporate entity (from a detached point of view, forgetting about the whole "dark age warrior democracy" on top). They must expand, and their nature dictates this must be acheived through combat for their identity is that of an arms company rather then a house appliance one.

Where are the clans, as a whole, to expand besides the inner sphere? How is their best and most lauded product to acheive its full potential but through an expansion into the inner sphere? How could one deny 'tis their destiny to make the attempt?

Once the golden century and the initial develoment of the homeworlds was complete, the existence of a movement like the wardens merely stems from natural opposition. Much like the situation makes the man rather then the other way around, the wardens exist because the crusader mindset is the natural state of things once the conjoncture is ripe.

[Gaiiten]

Another take on:

For optimizing their potential and warrior`s nature the Clans had to invade. The minor conflicts on the Homeworlds (tit-for-tat trials) were hardly something the warrior caste could improve and get the optimum of themselves.

[Colt Ward]

Another take on:

For optimizing their potential and warrior`s nature the Clans had to invade. The minor conflicts on the Homeworlds (tit-for-tat trials) were hardly something the warrior caste could improve and get the optimum of themselves.

Which is what led to the 3050+ sibkos of the Invasion Wolves being Supremacists- neither Crusader or Warden though more in line with the Crusaders.

[Metallgewitter]

Which is what led to the 3050+ sibkos of the Invasion Wolves being Supremacists- neither Crusader or Warden though more in line with the Crusaders.

Not to mention the "looser" pilots were relegated to sibko trainers. Now imagine what happens when sore loosers pound their frustrations into newer generations? Like what happened with the Smoke Jaguars. I think in WoR it was also mentioned that this was a big oversight by the clans that created the atmosphere before the Wars of Reaving hit.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given that the Clans are supposedly about the evolutionary improvement of each generation of warrior surpassing the ones before it, it's rather strange that the job of sibko instructor is a punishment for failed warriors instead of an honor reserved for the best warriors.

[AlphaMirage]

The best Warriors still stay active in the Touman and Bloodhouse Politics IMO. Bloodhouse Politics are really something I'd like more exploration into.

Also as the best they have Bloodnames and that makes them targets for the young guns looking for the prestige of a Bloodname and rival political cliques looking to influence Council decisions with 'fresh ideas.'

So you only have unBloodnamed Trueborns left over to train the rookies because they don't pose an obstacle for the present politics. So they might be exceptional Warriors but bad at politics or unlucky in the battle royal to get a bloodnamed, or Kerensky forbid Freeborn.

[Colt Ward]

Given that the Clans are supposedly about the evolutionary improvement of each generation of warrior surpassing the ones before it, it's rather strange that the job of sibko instructor is a punishment for failed warriors instead of an honor reserved for the best warriors.

Not surprising, it is similar to what certain powers did during a previous war- they kept their best on the frontline until they died rather than rotating them back to teach those who were in the training pipeline.

Now, not all skilled operators are instructors . . . some of the best cannot explain how they do it, simply being naturally gifted.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not surprising, it is similar to what certain powers did during a previous war- they kept their best on the frontline until they died rather than rotating them back to teach those who were in the training pipeline.

Yes, but I wasn't going to bring that up.  Just more proof that the Clan system is ultimately wasteful and self-destructive.

[Gaiiten]

An interesting detail, during the long conflict on the Blood Spirit homeworld of York, the Star Adders did rotate their warriors.

[Alan Grant]

An interesting detail, during the long conflict on the Blood Spirit homeworld of York, the Star Adders did rotate their warriors.

I always got the impression that was just rotating warriors between combat units. Doing tours of duty with the units on York then back out again. Because the Adders seem to keep the same unit (Clusters/Galaxy) on York over a long period of time, but that unit was almost constantly fighting with the Spirits over a period of time lasting years. So by rotating warriors and equipment, they kept the unit fresh and just rotated out the tired (and now very experienced) warriors and worn out equipment. This helped the Adders retain an edge over the Spirits in this long-term campaign for York. Doesn't mean those warriors got rotated to sibko training duty (some might have, sure, but nothing I've read spells that out). More likely were rotated to just other Clusters/Galaxies in the touman.

York seems to have been somewhat unusual, the tempo of combat remained high, even as things lasted for 4 years as of FM: Updates and probably longer after that. Yet the Adders didn't reassign Beta Galaxy. They kept it there that entire time on this long standing frontline with the Spirits. That kind of long grueling campaign necessitated a lot of turnover and need to rotate personnel and equipment. Necessity aside, it also just really seems like that was the Adders' plan all along. They kept Beta Galaxy relatively fresh and in good shape despite it being in nearly constant combat operations for years on York. While the Spirits seem to have fared at least a little worse, their Alpha Galaxy decommissioned a Cluster as of FM: U due to the fighting.

It was also a good opportunity to do things like blood new warriors (a concept the Clan writers of this era were quite obsessed with, look to the Coventry Incursion, and the FedCom Civil War Falcon Incursion). A tour of duty on York was good experience and a good opportunity to earn some individual honor and glory at that. Then they could spread those veterans to other postings. For many Adder warriors I think York became a kind of crucible, then many of them would, depending on how they performed on York, go on to another great posting, or try to earn a Bloodname. Or if they didn't perform so great on York (mediocre or worse) they might be rotated to a second-line unit. FM: U says both sibko graduates and older warriors were rotated through Beta Galaxy.

That's not what they are discussing here. What they are talking about in this thread is a general Clans-wide policy/mentality of almost never rotating the Clan's better/best warriors to sibko training duty. Keeping them in line units/combat units their entire careers until they found a warrior's death. With most sibko instructors being lesser/failed/aging warriors who didn't rise to become the cream of the crop, militarily or politically and were eventually sidelined into sibko training duty.

I do see their point. I think the Clans may have been better off treating sibko training duty as an honorable assignment, and periodically rotating even front-line warriors back to do that. Not forever, think a year or two, before rotating them back to a combat assignment. For some aging warriors, yes it might become their permanent assignment. But for others it could have been a more temporary duty, and much like training your bondsman, something that was quite honorable. That would have given the cadets at least some exposure to a wider variety of warriors, such as very successful bloodnamed warriors and ristars.

[Metallgewitter]

The thing isa though that this was never contemplated. The Clans purely thought that each generation will automatically be better then the previous one because only the best genes are used for the breeding protocols. And if not that Clan becomes ripe for an absorption trial because clearly something is wrong with their genes when they produce weaker warriors for one or even 2 generations. Just look at Redemption Rites: the aide of Star Colonel Othar is descendent from Vlad Ward and manages to earn the rank of Star Captain in his trial of position. He looks down on his trainer even stating "I have proven to be superior thanks to my genes" (or something similar). Experience might be valued once you have earned enough clout (blood name, rank, outstanding performances) but as stated before without said merits you are done by your mid thirties. Compare that to the IS where the veterans are often in their mid 40s or even 50's (even Phelan stated he might need serious luck to defeat his father despite him being so much younger. Or during the Outreach trials where Kai is sullen because at home he only wins against his sister forgetting his parents are the champion of Solaris and a veteran Mechwarrior of the Succession War). And something from Operation Klondike: the average age of the Clan warriors fell after Klondike until it reached an average of I think early 20's. So we have a youthful and impressionable warrior corps as base who all have 10-15 years at best to achieve results or you are relegated to solahma duty (at best) or become a trainer (or might even be reassigned to another caste)

[rohanpony]

Indeed. The young age of the player's Star in MW5:Clans is entirely accurate - even Naomi who is on the verge of being relegated to solahma is pretty young.