Trading Fleet in 3145

[Maingunnery]

I have started emerging myself in the 3145 setting, and I have started to update my personal Merc unit to the 3145 setting. 
The old unit was (stereotypically) stationed on Arc Royal, with some manufacturing on the side (also a bit stereotypical). During the post-Jihad rebuilding period quite a lot of money could be made however after that the peace will really hit which would lead to many problems that would make my old set-up mostly non-viable.

My current idea is to fluff the unit to become a micro-sized inner-sphere version of Clan Sea Fox. A fleet of jumpships moving as a single group, making money in the periphery. I choose the periphery because that way I mostly stay out of the way of the Sea Foxes. The main economic activities would be:

- Trading (low mass but high value) items
- Manufacturing (buying materials in system A, selling products in system D)
- Refitting/upgrading local Mechs while my own ground forces fill in the gaps.


I would like to know what you guys think about what would be needed to make it practical/viable and how far this concept can be pushed before it becomes munchy or implausible?

[CloaknDagger]

Trading is very doable, but moving resources is ridiculously inefficient. Asteroids have all the raw materials any planet could need, and they're already in system. If a planet can't make use of those themselves, it's very unlikely that they have anything worthwhile to pay you.

However, on ship manufacturing is very doable. Though I don't know where you would get a yardship. And it's pretty much a requirement for you to have a compact core, not enough space on a dropship or jumpship.

Mobile refit services are doable enough. It would probably cover all your travel expenses and then some.

[Maingunnery]

Trading is very doable, but moving resources is ridiculously inefficient. Asteroids have all the raw materials any planet could need, and they're already in system. If a planet can't make use of those themselves, it's very unlikely that they have anything worthwhile to pay you.

Would mining in somebodies system be legal? I worry that the additional costs of mining, refining and permits would likely cost more then just buying base materials.

However, on ship manufacturing is very doable. Though I don't know where you would get a yardship. And it's pretty much a requirement for you to have a compact core, not enough space on a dropship or jumpship.

I was thinking about manufacturing BA and weapons in the dropships and maybe some mech assembly. But it would be a good idea that take along at least one yard station with a KF boom.

Mobile refit services are doable enough. It would probably cover all your travel expenses and then some.

Good to know.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Would mining in somebodies system be legal? I worry that the additional costs of mining, refining and permits would likely cost more then just buying base materials.

As being the Inner Sphere's #1 distributor of Clantech parts, they not only have snazzy commercials blaring that they can pretty easily grease whatever palms needed when the need to work within the native law strikes them.  "Want to buy my ERPPCs?  Well they're yours for the low low price of saying to hell with your regulations and granting a special permit to mine your asteroid belt..."

They're still Clan, so they can also just default to a Trial of Possession for whatever mineral rights they want.

And then there's all the uninhabited systems.  They can stripmine the heck out of whatever they want in most systems and odds are no one would even know.

[CloaknDagger]

Would mining in somebodies system be legal? I worry that the additional costs of mining, refining and permits would likely cost more then just buying base materials.

Ha. Ha ha. HAHAHA.

Space is big. That's why it's called space. There's more than enough to go around. Space mining permits are ridiculous ideas.

I was thinking about manufacturing BA and weapons in the dropships and maybe some mech assembly. But it would be a good idea that take along at least one yard station with a KF boom.

Oh, that's probably doable.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Space is big. That's why it's called space. There's more than enough to go around. Space mining permits are ridiculous ideas.

Might be ridiculous, doesn't mean they never exist.

The United Industrial Workers' Union on Planet X might well have political support from the indigenous government to only allow certified UIWU affiliates do exoplanet mining anywhere in the system.

There's got to be a million and one more examples that might explain a restriction against the un-restrictable.

[CloaknDagger]

Might be ridiculous, doesn't mean they never exist.

The United Industrial Workers' Union on Planet X might well have political support from the indigenous government to only allow certified UIWU affiliates do exoplanet mining anywhere in the system.

There's got to be a million and one more examples that might explain a restriction against the un-restrictable.

Yes, but are they really going to enforce it? Like it was said, even if they do have something so dumb, if they want to trade with you, it's going out the window, and YOU are never going to be the one that desperately needs to do it because of other systems too.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In reply #3, I said "No, they wouldn't.  Not when the guys selling Clan-tech want them to break their own rules."

[CloaknDagger]

In reply #3, I said "No, they wouldn't.  Not when the guys selling Clan-tech want them to break their own rules."

Yes, that's what I was talking about.

[Maingunnery]

Here is my current set up:

1x Star Lord   (flagship)
3x Invader    
      
1x Unpressurized Yard Station   (with KF Boom)
1x Model 97 "Octopus"   
5x Behemoth (Habitat/Factory)
3x Mule (Cargo/CV hybrid) (6 ASF, 2 SC)
1x Excalibur (Refit center)
3x Union   (Upgraded)


I will post some of the variants soon.

[CloaknDagger]

Here is my current set up:

1x Star Lord   (flagship)
3x Invader    
      
1x Unpressurized Yard Station   (with KF Boom)
1x Model 97 "Octopus"   
5x Behemoth (Habitat/Factory)
3x Mule (Cargo/CV hybrid) (6 ASF, 2 SC)
1x Excalibur (Refit center)
3x Union   (Upgraded)


I will post some of the variants soon.

Can stations use docking booms?  :o

[Maingunnery]

Can stations use docking booms?  :o

Well there is one variant of the Snowden Mining Station that has a KF Boom.

[CloaknDagger]

Well there is one variant of the Snowden Mining Station that has a KF Boom.

You have given me an idea.

[Maingunnery]

Thinking about it, it might be cheaper just to transport the yard station as cargo in one of the Behemoths. Then I only need to deploy it for use and I save a collar.

[CloaknDagger]

Thinking about it, it might be cheaper just to transport the yard station as cargo in one of the Behemoths. Then I only need to deploy it for use and I save a collar.

Can they fit the whole space station in them? That much cargo space?

[Maingunnery]

Can they fit the whole space station in them? That much cargo space?

Such stations don't have to be big, most of the other needed stuff is in the other dropships:

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Unpress Yard Station
Mass:              9.000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                          108,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 0
      Maximum Thrust: 0
Structural Integrity: 1                                                 90,00
Total Heat Sinks:    59 Single                                            ,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     102,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                  9,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Standard  (421 total armor pts)                           263,00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 71
   Fore-Left/Right:                   70/70
   Aft-Left/Right:                    70/70
   Aft:                                  70

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  UnPress Repair Facil. (300.000 T Capy, 1 door)            7.500,00
   Bay 2:  Small Craft (1) with 2 doors                                200,00
           Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                      375,00


Crew and Passengers:
      8 Officers (7 minimum)                                            80,00
     39 Crew (39 minimum)                                              273,00
      5 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                Heat: 0       9.000,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00


[CloaknDagger]

Why not a pressurized facility? It works better.

For your fleet, I would make it a goal to build as much as possible. Think of it like playing an RTS. First, you eat one asteroid and build level 1 ships, then...

And before you know it, you have a couple of warships, and all your manufacturing is in space.

Remember: There's no reason to ever land on a planet. Once you get all your infrastructure in space, there's no reason to turn back.

[Maingunnery]

Why not a pressurized facility? It works better.

A pressurized facility must be bigger then what goes in, an unpressurized facility doesn't. And considering I want to be able to service the Star Lord or two Invaders.....

For your fleet, I would make it a goal to build as much as possible. Think of it like playing an RTS. First, you eat one asteroid and build level 1 ships, then...

And before you know it, you have a couple of warships, and all your manufacturing is in space.

Remember: There's no reason to ever land on a planet. Once you get all your infrastructure in space, there's no reason to turn back.

So what would be the plausible limit?

[CloaknDagger]

A pressurized facility must be bigger then what goes in, an unpressurized facility doesn't. And considering I want to be able to service the Star Lord or two Invaders.....

? No, I'm pretty sure it's 2.5% of whatever goes in for regular, 7.5% for pressurized, and 10% for reinforced.

So what would be the plausible limit?

Limit for what?

[Maingunnery]

? No, I'm pretty sure it's 2.5% of whatever goes in for regular, 7.5% for pressurized, and 10% for reinforced.

Whoops. But is having a pressurized yard really worth the extra cost and weight?

Limit for what?

Creating a fleet rivaling Clan Sea Fox doesn't sound very plausible does it? I would like to think of that would be a good starting point in assets and where the upper limit should be.

[CloaknDagger]

Whoops. But is having a pressurized yard really worth the extra cost and weight?

Off the top of my head...

There was a table in Strat Ops for repairs or salavge or both or something. Regular yards are a -3 to the roll, pressurized is -5. Pretty big deal for something as valuable as a ship.

Creating a fleet rivaling Clan Sea Fox doesn't sound very plausible does it?

Ghost Bear moved it's entire Clan on a pair of Leviathan warships and some other ones too. It's not unreasonable to be able to do that kind of bulk movement with small BT population sizes.

I would like to think of that would be a good starting point in assets and where the upper limit should be.

What you have seems a reasonable starting point. After you get manufacturing for everything you need? The upper limit is just population. Resources are effectively infinite. I expect you to be fighting to steal or bargain for the required factories at the start. In the long term, I expect to see you fighting Wobbie holdouts so you can get access to Caspar and similar AI tech.

[Prince of Darkness]

It should be noted- most planets in battletech do not require the extensive mining equipment earth does now, as many of them have only been colonized in the last X00 hundred years.  Many worlds, as Cray has stated several times, are still in a state where ores that contain Iron, copper, and other useful metals can simply be picked up off the ground.

What this means is you really don't need space mining- it's far cheaper and less resource intensive to have mining on some podunk world somewhere than all the specialized training and equipment needed for space operations.  It doesn't help that asteroids aren't all that resource-dense either.

[Maingunnery]

Off the top of my head...

There was a table in Strat Ops for repairs or salavge or both or something. Regular yards are a -3 to the roll, pressurized is -5. Pretty big deal for something as valuable as a ship.

That is a big difference...... it seems that I can make a pressurized yard station for 24,000 tons so that shouldn't be a problem to transport.

What you have seems a reasonable starting point. After you get manufacturing for everything you need? The upper limit is just population. Resources are effectively infinite. I expect you to be fighting to steal or bargain for the required factories at the start. In the long term, I expect to see you fighting Wobbie holdouts so you can get access to Caspar and similar AI tech.

If it was that easy then I think that BT won't have such low amount of production. This makes me think that there are some production bottlenecks at play.

It should be noted- most planets in battletech do not require the extensive mining equipment earth does now, as many of them have only been colonized in the last X00 hundred years.  Many worlds, as Cray has stated several times, are still in a state where ores that contain Iron, copper, and other useful metals can simply be picked up off the ground.

What this means is you really don't need space mining- it's far cheaper and less resource intensive to have mining on some podunk world somewhere than all the specialized training and equipment needed for space operations.  It doesn't help that asteroids aren't all that resource-dense either.

It might be profitable if the asteroid is heavy with rare earth metals, otherwise I think that you are right.




Here is my current design for Arc modified Behemoth. I will try to see if its legal to fully replace the planetary drive with a station keeping drive (that could save cost and weight).

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Behemoth Arc
Mass:              100.000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        6.500,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 1
      Maximum Thrust: 2
Structural Integrity: 30                                             6.000,00
Total Heat Sinks:    101 Single                                           ,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     612,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                750,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Ferro-aluminum  (846 total armor pts)                     108,00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                243
   Left/Right Sides:                 211/211
   Aft:                                 181

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (12) with 3 doors                             2.400,00
           Fighters (6) with 3 doors                                   900,00
   Bay 2:  Factory Unit (1) with 2 doors                            25.000,00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 10 doors                                  26.140,00

Escape Pods:  600 (7 tons each)                                      4.200,00

Crew and Passengers:
    350 Officers (323 minimum)                                       3.500,00
  1.600 Crew (0 minimum)                                            11.200,00
     15 Gunners (5 minimum)                                            105,00
     25 1st Class Passengers                                           250,00
  1.600 2nd Class Passengers                                        11.200,00
     72 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 AMS(240 rounds)          Nose        --     --     --     --    5     22,50
5 AMS(240 rounds)          FL/R        --     --     --     --   10     45,00
5 AMS(240 rounds)          AL/R        --     --     --     --   10     45,00
5 AMS(240 rounds)          Aft         --     --     --     --    5     22,50
1 Lot Spare Parts (1,00%)                                            1.000,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                               Heat: 30     100.000,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00


[CloaknDagger]

If it was that easy then I think that BT won't have such low amount of production. This makes me think that there are some production bottlenecks at play.

Not really. BT shows that time and again, if you have the tech, entire armies can pop out of nowhere. The Clans, Comstar, and the Word of Blake all pulled immense amounts of stuff out of their ass time and again. It's about the ability to produce it, the bottleneck is the manufacturing tech.

[Prince of Darkness]

It might be profitable if the asteroid is heavy with rare earth metals, otherwise I think that you are right.

Those asteroids are rare ones that originally would have becomes planets, but who's accretion stopped at some point due to lack of matter in their vicinity- the asteroids Vesta and Ceres are likely what you would find and base them off of.

Here is my current design for Arc modified Behemoth. I will try to see if its legal to fully replace the planetary drive with a station keeping drive (that could save cost and weight).

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Behemoth Arc
Mass:              100.000 tons


If you wanna replace the planetary drive with a station-keeping one, a space station would do you just fine.

Not really. BT shows that time and again, if you have the tech, entire armies can pop out of nowhere. The Clans, Comstar, and the Word of Blake all pulled immense amounts of stuff out of their ass time and again. It's about the ability to produce it, the bottleneck is the manufacturing tech.

Armies popping out of nowhere?  Please.

Battletech in the 3050s had most IS 'mechs being handbuilt, as per official statement.  It's only been the last ~50 years during the jihad did anyone think to automate factories.  Heck, the original books said the Valkyrie facility on New Avalon only built 115~ a year in 3025.

[CloaknDagger]

Battletech in the 3050s had most IS 'mechs being handbuilt, as per official statement.  It's only been the last ~50 years during the jihad did anyone think to automate factories.  Heck, the original books said the Valkyrie facility on New Avalon only built 115~ a year in 3025.

And yet, Comstar had huge armies, even recently pulling it out of nowhere once again, Wobbies had huge armies, and probably still do, and the Clans have a tenth of the IS population and yet still invaded it successfully with only a few of their Clans. All this because of automation.

[Maingunnery]

And yet, Comstar had huge armies, even recently pulling it out of nowhere once again, Wobbies had huge armies, and probably still do,

Most of those armies were constructed in the past and then updated. Other common designs were produced in massive facilities, with likely multiple lines.

and the Clans have a tenth of the IS population and yet still invaded it successfully with only a few of their Clans. All this because of automation.

Mostly because of their weapons technology, but it is true that the Clans devote a higher % of their resources to the military.

[CloaknDagger]

Most of those armies were constructed in the past and then updated. Other common designs were produced in massive facilities, with likely multiple lines.

Indeed. And the only difference between a factory on the ground and one in space is vacuum sealing.

[Prince of Darkness]

Maingunnery got to it before me- Comstar had those 'mechs for hundreds of years from the fall of the star league, and the word controlled Terra- which has the output of 7 Hesperus IIs, combines with the 5+ billion people still living on earth and the many billions more in the solar system.

Besides, that automation could have been lostech, and with that level of production even if the houses rediscovered it by 3050, it would take decades to update their factories and materials units.  It's in the same vein as why UPS and other shipping companies are still running databases for package handling that was new in 1985.

Indeed. And the only difference between a factory on the ground and one in space is vacuum sealing.

And gravity, safety, ease of transporting goods on-world, and... well, everything.

[CloaknDagger]

Maingunnery got to it before me- Comstar had those 'mechs for hundreds of years from the fall of the star league, and the word controlled Terra- which has the output of 7 Hesperus IIs, combines with the 5+ billion people still living on earth and the many billions more in the solar system.

And yet, even after the wall is up now, they still have new Comguards coming out of nowhere.

Besides, that automation could have been lostech, and with that level of production even if the houses rediscovered it by 3050, it would take decades to update their factories and materials units.  It's in the same vein as why UPS and other shipping companies are still running databases for package handling that was new in 1985.

That's why I said that getting it would be a priority.

And gravity, safety, ease of transporting goods on-world, and... well, everything.

Gravity is easy enough by using rotation. Transportation is about the same, not a big difference between a semi-truck and a small craft.